MicroLED: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 12 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #331 of 363 Old 06-10-2019, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by gorman42 View Post
I've asked mods to close the discussion I opened and thought about posting this here. I hope it's appropriate.

I ask because I see that LED still have half-life times given in their specifications. As such, the risk for burn in/image retention could be there. Or is their half-life so long that it's not a risk anymore? Do we have any information about this?

A quick search gave me this: http://focusdigitaldisplays.com/2011...ing-important/
There is no risk of burn in with micro -led ,that's mis information. The technology is like oled in the sense of there is no back light but the leds turn on and off as needed. But the reason of no burn in is because this technology is not organic , which oled is. As of today no company who makes oled will cover burn in, however samsung will cover and burn in on there qled line which is puzzling because there is no burn in with Qleds. I'm sure OLED will hang around awhile when micro led hit the consumer market which is a few years away.However if it catches on I think oled will go the way of Plasma.
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post #332 of 363 Old 06-10-2019, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by MikeBiker View Post
Most of the advantage of Micro-LEDs will be in small screens such as phones and tablets. They will not be able to upscale to larger displays. They do have advantages over OLED in small displays.

http://www.eenewsled.com/news/6000pp...eat-oleds-cost
They said the same thing about oleds back as far as 2012,and here we are large oled displays.Never say never.
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post #333 of 363 Old 06-10-2019, 12:17 PM
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''Also, because of their organic compounds and their sensitivity to heat OLEDs are not as durable as LEDs.''
That nails it for me .Why invest in a technology that is basically throw away products. It's organic ,the pixels degrade in time .The burn in issue ,the brightness issue. The cost of replacing the panel. If you can get a warranty that will cover burn in, that warranty will only kick in after the manufacturer warranty runs out. Is Oled the best picture around,yep,but the cost of having it and the baby sitting the TV factor,for me I said ''for me'' is a waste of money. And technologies on the rise will out do oleds. Won't be next year but it's coming and when it does and catches on and affordable Oled will be a thing of the past.
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post #334 of 363 Old 06-10-2019, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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There is no post-OLED technology coming anytime soon.

And I think (know? am certain?) people are confused by what "organic" means. It does not "wears out like your carrots".

And "inorganic" LEDs don't have infinite lifespans either.

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #335 of 363 Old 06-11-2019, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomvinelli View Post
''Also, because of their organic compounds and their sensitivity to heat OLEDs are not as durable as LEDs.''
That nails it for me .Why invest in a technology that is basically throw away products. It's organic ,the pixels degrade in time .The burn in issue ,the brightness issue. The cost of replacing the panel. If you can get a warranty that will cover burn in, that warranty will only kick in after the manufacturer warranty runs out.
How do you get around? I sure hope you don't drive a car - transmission wear, oil changes, service costs!, much less a bike - everything's a consumable!, and presumably no shoes either - those soles are just throw away items!


Now for a bit of truth:
  • LED-backlit LCD TVs wear out as well, they just lose brightness uniformly.
  • Burn-in warranties extend the manufacturer's warranty, you don't have to wait for it to end.
  • Even if it did, it takes dedicated effort to create BI on a modern OLED within its manufacturer's 1-year warranty. It took Seoul Airport 4 months to burn-in just 1 out of their 70 OLED TVs, and they did it by displaying flight numbers on it 24/7 at peak brightness.
  • If the cost of an OLED TV is so high for your budget that you couldn't replace it in a non-warranty case - for instance, if a kid throws a heavy toy at it and breaks the panel - then you shouldn't buy one.
  • That said, if even older B7-B8 models are too expensive, you'll be looking at lower-midrange TVs as an alternative, with less brightness than OLED, and far from the best that LCD have to offer today.
  • All technologies currently trying to outdo OLED cost more and have less potential for cost reduction, so you'll be even further away from being able to comfortably afford them.
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post #336 of 363 Old 06-11-2019, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by tomvinelli View Post
There is no risk of burn in with micro -led ,that's mis information. The technology is like oled in the sense of there is no back light but the leds turn on and off as needed. But the reason of no burn in is because this technology is not organic , which oled is. As of today no company who makes oled will cover burn in, however samsung will cover and burn in on there qled line which is puzzling because there is no burn in with Qleds. I'm sure OLED will hang around awhile when micro led hit the consumer market which is a few years away.However if it catches on I think oled will go the way of Plasma.
"Burn in" is simply uneven aging of pixels. My message, the one you quoted, simply reported on the fact that LED age too. They lose brightness during their lifetime. Same thing happening with OLED pixels when we speak of "burn in".

Now, it might well be that MicroLEDs have such a huge half-life period that they become, for all practical uses, "immune" to burn in. But the difference between emissive technologies (one light per pixel) and LCD screens is that you run the risk of driving some specific pixels much harder than others, leading to "burn it", which is simply a portion of the screen becoming uncapable of light emission at the same level as the surrounding pixels.

I see nothing telling me that MicroLED would be immune to this process. Because 60,000 hours to half light emission tells a partial story, as you don't require half the light output to notice "burn-in". I don't remember what percentage loss was needed for the process to become noticeable (I seem to remember somebody on AVS stating 10%, but I might be wrong). Granted 6,000 hours before it becomes noticeable probably would shield consumers for all but the most extreme of the most extreme cases. But, at least academically, I think the question is worth asking.

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post #337 of 363 Old 06-11-2019, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by AnalogHD View Post
How do you get around? I sure hope you don't drive a car - transmission wear, oil changes, service costs!, much less a bike - everything's a consumable!, and presumably no shoes either - those soles are just throw away items!


Now for a bit of truth:
  • LED-backlit LCD TVs wear out as well, they just lose brightness uniformly.
  • Burn-in warranties extend the manufacturer's warranty, you don't have to wait for it to end.
  • Even if it did, it takes dedicated effort to create BI on a modern OLED within its manufacturer's 1-year warranty. It took Seoul Airport 4 months to burn-in just 1 out of their 70 OLED TVs, and they did it by displaying flight numbers on it 24/7 at peak brightness.
  • If the cost of an OLED TV is so high for your budget that you couldn't replace it in a non-warranty case - for instance, if a kid throws a heavy toy at it and breaks the panel - then you shouldn't buy one.
  • That said, if even older B7-B8 models are too expensive, you'll be looking at lower-midrange TVs as an alternative, with less brightness than OLED, and far from the best that LCD have to offer today.
  • All technologies currently trying to outdo OLED cost more and have less potential for cost reduction, so you'll be even further away from being able to comfortably afford them.
Wearing out as well, yes, but uniformy, not always (attached):

(That's what the green field of the IPS LCD on the 2016 rtings.com burn-in test looks like after over 12,000 hours of use: https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/perm...rn-in-lcd-oled)
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post #338 of 363 Old 06-11-2019, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by pkeegan View Post
I had lunch today at the Viewhouse restaurant in Littleton, CO. They have a 165" LED in this location and a 200" LED in their Centennial, CO restaurant. At first we thought they were using a projector but we didn't see one. The image was so bright it gave us doubts about them using a projector. I asked the manager and he informed me it was an 165" LED tv. It was impressive! He told me the TV was assemble from blocks. I went up to the TV to see if I could distinguish the individual blocks. I couldn't. The manager came up as I was closely inspecting the TV and gave me a fuller explanation and pointed out the size of the blocks by feeling the outer edge of the TV. While within inches from the TV I could easily make out the LED pixel rows and columns but I sure couldn't make out any change of width or height changes at the block's transitions. The TV looked as if it just one block. A 165" block. You did need to be back ~3 feet or so before you could no longer distinguish the individual
LEDs/Pixels. If you have a massive room this is the TV to have. The image was much brighter than the other 55"/65" TVs throughout the open area. The manager mentioned the TV was blindingly bright in Olympic Winter clips.
I'm planning on going to a theater in Chatsworth, CA this coming Saturday to see their micro-LED theater in action. I don't have the schedule yet but they currently have three movies that would be a good test for the technology. I don't know the size but I believe it is at least as big as the smaller screens used in metroplex theaters. If everything goes to plan I can report my opinion later next week.

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post #339 of 363 Old 06-11-2019, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by tomvinelli View Post
There is no risk of burn in with micro -led ,that's mis information.

This is not true. Any tech that features pixels that age, i.e dim with time, is susceptible to 'burn-in', and this certainly includes (presumably native RGB) micro LED.
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post #340 of 363 Old 06-17-2019, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by K Sec View Post
Sorry if some of these are basic questions, googling The Wall and MicroLED only brings up some PR news report and marketing speaks.

Samsung Shrink the thickness from 90mm to 30mm, which is by todays standard still quite thick, does anyone know what sort of limit are there for it, could it be further shrink to sub 10mm?

The weight, power usage per tile?

How do they get powered? How are the signal of each tile connected ?

I was extremely surprised that Samsung managed to get down to 75" this quick, I thought they will need another few years. I just wonder when they could get to 55" to 65" to compete directly with OLED.
Anyone?
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post #341 of 363 Old 06-22-2019, 01:42 PM
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Too bad rear-projection TV's are no longer a thing. Would have made for an interesting product. Maybe still viable for front-projection applications. VR/AR is too niche.

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post #342 of 363 Old 06-22-2019, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Too bad rear-projection TV's are no longer a thing. Would have made for an interesting product. Maybe still viable for front-projection applications. VR/AR is too niche.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52ogQS6QKxc
So is this a replacement for dlp chip or "Wall" or both? If it replaces dlp then does the brightness they talk about really matter? Seems like the brightness matters if it is a "Wall" product.

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post #343 of 363 Old 06-23-2019, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
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They are describing a light output system without a tremendous amount of meaning. The implication of a 2 million nit light source would be that the chip alone could power a massive room-sized projector on its own at levels SMPTE would describe as excessive.

Yet we see the display through a lens in that video and well it is nowhere near that bright.

A 2 million nit source is enough to illuminate a 144 square meter screen to 14,000 nits effective output. That would be 20x what, say, an LG OLED can do and would be somewhere bordering on excruciating if not sufficient to personal turn your retinae into burnt toast.

Oh, and that 144 square meter screen would be 50 feet across!

It's fairly obvious that this CMOS-based microdisplay unit, as fascinating and revolutionary as it is doesn't output anywhere near that much light. So what are they describing?

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #344 of 363 Old 06-24-2019, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by JackB View Post
I'm planning on going to a theater in Chatsworth, CA this coming Saturday to see their micro-LED theater in action. I don't have the schedule yet but they currently have three movies that would be a good test for the technology. I don't know the size but I believe it is at least as big as the smaller screens used in metroplex theaters. If everything goes to plan I can report my opinion later next week.

Did you ever make it to the cinema? Want to hear your impressions on the picture quality.

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post #345 of 363 Old 06-24-2019, 07:00 AM
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Did you ever make it to the cinema? Want to hear your impressions on the picture quality.
For various reasons I changed my plan to sometime in the near future. Once I get it done I will certainly post my impressions. Ant recommendations on what is out there now and in the near future that would be a good demo? Probably something with a lot of dark scenes.

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post #346 of 363 Old 06-24-2019, 07:34 AM
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a follow-up and update on the progress

https://www.ledinside.com/features/2...enges_analysis

https://www.microled-info.com/

Last edited by 3dprojector; 06-24-2019 at 11:19 AM.
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post #347 of 363 Old 06-24-2019, 11:19 AM
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IHS is forecasting fewer than 1000 MicroLEDs sold through 2020: https://www.microled-info.com/ihs-mi...ion-units-2026

"Shipments in 2019-2020 will be virtually nono-existance (less than 1,000 units, in fact), but the new emerging display technology will find markets in wearables, TVs, AR and also smartphones."

Their MicroLED forecast lumps together small (relatively) inexpensive silicon-based MicroLED displays with large tile-based MicroLED displays for TV, so who knows whether the ~400,000 unit forecast they have for 2021 makes any sense or not (but if so, I'm predicting a small fraction of that volume is TVs).

I definitely agree with their conclusion:

"Micro-LED will continue to carry a high price premium compared to LCD and also OLED displays, but the high brightness and low power consumption will make MicroLEDs attractive for microdisplays and ultra-large displays. The price of a 1.5" Micro-LED display will fall to one tenth of the current 2019 cost by 2026, and a 75" panel will fall to one-fifth of its current cost."

1.5" MicroLED displays (silicon wafer-based) very possibly will fall to 1/10th of today's cost, meaning they'll be quite inexpensive and to the extent the AR market is significant by 2026, a large volume of 1.5" MicroLED displays will probably be sold.

And the cost of 75" tile-based MicroLED displays very likely will also drop to 1/5th of the first generation Samsung should be introducing this year. So let's see, if this first 75" is priced at $50K we very well may see 75" MicroLED displays priced at $10K by 2026.

By then, 98" 8K rollable WOLEDs will probably be costing under $10K as well, so I have trouble getting excited about the prospect of 75" MicroLED TVs approaching the low 5-digits 7 years from now....

Since the beginning, the fact that the MicroLED display market combines both ultra-small silicon-wafer-based displays for appkications like AR with wall-sized tile-based displays based on a completely different assembly technology (and costs) has made zero sense to me.

MicroLED displays for A/R and jumbotron 2.0 displays, I'm a believer.

MicroLED displays for consumer TVs at any meaningful volume of the Premium TV segment (meaning close to WOLED TV volumes), I remain a huge skeptic.
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post #348 of 363 Old 06-25-2019, 04:36 AM
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For various reasons I changed my plan to sometime in the near future. Once I get it done I will certainly post my impressions. Ant recommendations on what is out there now and in the near future that would be a good demo? Probably something with a lot of dark scenes.
I don't know how many dark scenes there will be, but Spider-Man: Far From Home should look pretty good. There are some scenes he's wearing a stealth suit. So, those dark scenes should look great.

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post #349 of 363 Old 06-25-2019, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Gillietalls View Post
I don't know how many dark scenes there will be, but Spider-Man: Far From Home should look pretty good. There are some scenes he's wearing a stealth suit. So, those dark scenes should look great.
That one is not currently showing.

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post #350 of 363 Old 06-25-2019, 02:08 PM
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That one is not currently showing.
Should be next week.

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post #351 of 363 Old 06-25-2019, 02:11 PM
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MicroLED displays for consumer TVs at any meaningful volume of the Premium TV segment (meaning close to WOLED TV volumes), I remain a huge skeptic.
Your logic is sound, but genuinely disappointing to me. I had hoped for an upgrade away from my 120" projector screen with microLED. The benefits (no fan noise, better blacks, better dynamic range) would have been worth the pain. First world problems, though...
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post #352 of 363 Old 06-25-2019, 05:00 PM
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Your logic is sound, but genuinely disappointing to me. I had hoped for an upgrade away from my 120" projector screen with microLED. The benefits (no fan noise, better blacks, better dynamic range) would have been worth the pain. First world problems, though...
WOLED will get you there before MicroLED does (assuming you mean you are dissapointed because you are on a budget).

It's a near certainty that LGD will follow up their 88" 8K WOLED with a 98" 8K panel within the next few years.

The largest panel size that LGD can manufacture 2-up on 8.5G manufacturing is 98"...

Once their 10.5G plant is up and running in 2022, the largest 2-up panel size on 10.5G is 130"...

Cost-wise, a 98" WOLED TV will cost less to manufacture than 3 55" WOLED TVs and on 10.5G a 130" WOLED TV will cost less to manufacture than 4 65" WOLED TVs.

Of course, there be be an outrageous lifestyles-of-the-rich-and-famous tax until demand at those sizes grows to semi-meaningful numbers (meaning 10s of thousands per year, not hundreds or even thousands per year).

LGD is manufacturing ~40,000 77" WOLED panels this year, and that's not a market segment they take seriously yet (but hopefully will by 2020 or 2021...).
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post #353 of 363 Old 06-26-2019, 12:06 PM
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https:// semiengineering.com / microleds-the-next-revolution-in-displays


Don't know if it was posted, but nevertheless, an interesting article about the dificulties of microled.

Edit, I can't post links, so remove the spaces
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post #354 of 363 Old 06-29-2019, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
They are describing a light output system without a tremendous amount of meaning. The implication of a 2 million nit light source would be that the chip alone could power a massive room-sized projector on its own at levels SMPTE would describe as excessive.

Yet we see the display through a lens in that video and well it is nowhere near that bright.

A 2 million nit source is enough to illuminate a 144 square meter screen to 14,000 nits effective output. That would be 20x what, say, an LG OLED can do and would be somewhere bordering on excruciating if not sufficient to personal turn your retinae into burnt toast.

Oh, and that 144 square meter screen would be 50 feet across!

It's fairly obvious that this CMOS-based microdisplay unit, as fascinating and revolutionary as it is doesn't output anywhere near that much light. So what are they describing?
In their demos they are covering the panels with ND filters in order to make them dark enough to view directly.

The 2 million nit green micro display is 6.72 x 3.92 mm = 0.0000263424 sq. meters. (spec sheet : https://www.jb-display.com/5-um-pitch). A 65" 16x9 display has an area of 1.16 sq. meters. If you projected that micro display to cover this large area, you would end up with 45 nits assuming no optical losses (unlikely). Adding a red and blue panel would raise that slightly but still shy of the 100 nits required for an SDR TV. It's also too dim for most home theater 120"+ front projector setups. They've managed to double light output in just a single year so lets hope they can keep improving it further for projector applications. They also need to figure out how to cool it or not much use for AR/VR glasses either.
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post #355 of 363 Old 07-01-2019, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by KensingtonPark View Post
Your logic is sound, but genuinely disappointing to me. I had hoped for an upgrade away from my 120" projector screen with microLED. The benefits (no fan noise, better blacks, better dynamic range) would have been worth the pain. First world problems, though...

I'm right there with ya, I love my 120x51 scope screen and the Sony vw885 laser pj look awesome, but I can't help by being mesmerized by OLEDs I see in the stores. But even at 98", it would still feel too small, especially with the black bars and smaller picture that a 2.35 movie would show. I just hope OLED or microLED will advance sufficiently to make the cost a bit more obtainable for such larger screens in the next several years.
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post #356 of 363 Old 07-08-2019, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Leo80 View Post
From what I understand microLED is the only technology "on the rise" that could give OLED a run for its money.
Dual layer LCD is likely coming in the next few years. A grey LCD is used as a backlight for the color LCD. Whether it gives OLED a run for the money is yet to be seen, but, in theory, it should be an improvement over current LCD.
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post #357 of 363 Old 07-08-2019, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
There is no post-OLED technology coming anytime soon.

And I think (know? am certain?) people are confused by what "organic" means. It does not "wears out like your carrots".

And "inorganic" LEDs don't have infinite lifespans either.
I think LG would beg to differ, there is a post-OLED technology in the next 5 years. Even LG has what looks to me to be the best implementation. Here is a video look even better in person and much better than Samsung’s “The Wall” for example Samsung’s booth at CES the white platform was designed to prevent people and media from getting to close where you could see the panel gaps.




I expect this to be on BestBuy shelves in about 5 years give or take. Just like Plasma was Phased out, OLED will be phased out in favor of MicroLED, because we need the Higher Brightness for 8K and for REC2020 even OLED is stuck at 67% of REC2020
It’s 2025 Imagine MicroLED 2,000 nits and 90% REC2020 color Gamut Side by side with today’s best C9 OLED will make a 2019 C9 look like a Black and White CRT.
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post #358 of 363 Old 07-08-2019, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Ice Cold View Post
Just like Plasma was Phased out, OLED will be phased out in favor of MicroLED, because we need the Higher Brightness for 8K
Just one wrench in the works: micro-LED can't do 8K.


They're struggling to sell it as 2K in home sizes, while pretending the real deal is 4K in big mansions, and the reality will probably settle somewhere in between, seeing how it's all modular.
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post #359 of 363 Old 07-08-2019, 05:44 PM
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Just one wrench in the works: micro-LED can't do 8K.


They're struggling to sell it as 2K in home sizes, while pretending the real deal is 4K in big mansions, and the reality will probably settle somewhere in between, seeing how it's all modular.

Really how so ? Why ?

I’m pretty sure Samsung and Sony are showing 8K MicroLED Displays. Besides it’s not for me, having seen MicroLED in person. I can see the seems where the panels are put together. They only want to sell 75” + MicroLED Displays because you have to be really far back in order to not see the panel gaps or seems.

Anyways I’m happy to speculate about a new OLED in 2020 but MicroLED won’t be affordable for a long time.

Just look how far we have come from a 55EF9500 in 2015. To a 55” LG C9 in 2019
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post #360 of 363 Old 07-09-2019, 02:44 AM
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Really how so ? Why ?
I’m pretty sure Samsung and Sony are showing 8K MicroLED Displays.
They only want to sell 75” + MicroLED Displays because you have to be really far back in order to not see the panel gaps or seems.
They only want to sell 75"+ because 75" is the smallest they can make a 1080p a 4K microLED.

It's possible to make any resolution by attaching more modules together. But at 8K the screen will have to be twice the width and height. In other words, while such a display is possible, but closer to cinema size than home size.

Of course real-life cinemas won't spend so much when there's no 8K content even on the horizon and just get cheaper 4K or 2K versions. After all, micro-LED is priced (mostly) per pixel, not per square foot.

Last edited by AnalogHD; 07-10-2019 at 04:52 AM.
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