MicroLED: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 462 Old 08-25-2018, 06:04 PM
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Irkuck is a true believa' after dunking that Samdung Kool-Aid.
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post #92 of 462 Old 08-25-2018, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
Irkuck is a true believa' after dunking that Samdung Kool-Aid.
If I ever get dunked in Kool-Aid by Samsung, that might turn me into a believer too .
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post #93 of 462 Old 08-26-2018, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Oh, I think you had it right before. When it comes to MictoLED, bigger is safer/less expensive.
Sony has CLEDIS
Samsung has The Wall
LG wants to be perceived as belonging with the Big Boys, but they want to do so as quickly and easily (and safely and cheaply) as possible.
The only extent with which 'consumers' enter into the equation is that LG wants consumers to think LG has as cool, rediculously-expensive, futuristic display technologies as the two 'S'es.
Anyone who could realistically dream of owning one of these beasts is abot as far from being a cosumer as imaginable...
Heh, sure LG got inferiority complex on microLED and wants to be with the Big Boys...

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Bugatti just announced their Hypercar: http://www.thedrive.com/news/23123/t...ts-5-8-million
1478 Horsepowr and 'only' $5.8 million.
Do you thinkVolkswagon is 'balancing on a line' and fretting that the Hypercar may undermine sales of the Golf?
Sorry, this is failed comparison. The right one:

Think about microLED as a newborn Tesla. Big old guys like VW are looking amused at first, than start dismissing but finally wake up and go to copycat Tesla. This is where we are now.

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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Yeah, sorry, but your read is wrong. Samsung's mention of 'Luxury Mansions' shoud have told you everything you need to know...
This is about the first step, next steps are mass production in Vietnam (cheap, cheap, cheap) with nicely surprising prices.

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Originally Posted by AnalogHD View Post
No.None of the two is a consumer product at all.
Samsung is throwing a red herring - making a few $300,000+ micro-LED displays, without advertising the price to anyone except professional installers - fortunately, AVS is one of the places they congregate - then claiming to "have beaten OLED".
The reality is, it's as relevant to consumers as HondaJet being faster than Porsche 991 is to car enthusiasts. But who cares? They fooled you, at least.

People got fixated on this $300K. Samsung said they solved mass manufacturing problems and starting production in their TV factory in Vietnam. It is obviously not for making a few sets, you got it?


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Originally Posted by AnalogHD View Post
Of course. It just lacks any meaningful overlap with the OLED market. It's like cars vs planes - a lot of people have both, but bizjet innovations take no money out of the luxury car market.

MicroLED has several aces in its sleeves. It is an obvious champion candidate for big sizes, say 85+. Add to this HDR, no burn, potential for ultra-precise uniformity (microLEDs can be preselected for light output).
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post #94 of 462 Old 08-26-2018, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
Irkuck is a true believa' after dunking that Samdung Kool-Aid.
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
If I ever get dunked in Kool-Aid by Samsung, that might turn me into a believer too .

Your beloved LG used 175 inch BandAid to keep with wetting their bottomline, you guys better follow them before OLED starts melting.
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post #95 of 462 Old 08-26-2018, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
This is about the first step, next steps are mass production in Vietnam (cheap, cheap, cheap) with nicely surprising prices.
MicroLED is very labor-extensive, and labor in Vietnam will be cheaper than in other areas. But the cost of MicroLED is dominated by the cists of the LEDs themselves, and thise cost the same in Vietnam as anywhere else...


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People got fixated on this $300K. Samsung said they solved mass manufacturing problems and starting production in their TV factory in Vietnam. It is obviously not for making a few sets, you got it?
It's all relative, isn't it?

There are probably what, 10 JumboTrons maufactured everyyear (certainly <100). On that scale, Samsung will be in mass-production in Vietnam.

On the other hand, LGD will manufacture close to 3M WOLED panels this year and will be manufactiring over 3M panels in 2019.

On that scale, Samsung's 'mass-production' won't even get close to the 1% level in 2019.


Quote:
MicroLED has several aces in its sleeves. It is an obvious champion candidate for big sizes, say 85+. Add to this HDR, no burn, potential for ultra-precise uniformity (microLEDs can be preselected for light output).
You're just totally missing the boat on where this is headed.

Yes, Samsung may be manufacturing and selling over 100-times as many large-screen displays as JumboTron will sell next year (massive ramp-up, mass-production). Yet they will not come close to manufacturing even 1% of the number of WOLED panels manufactured next year (not even a blip on the consumer TV market).

I'm guessing Samsung will manufacture over a thousand of these MicroLED TVs next year but won't reach 10,000 let alone 30,000.

From there, there will be no hockey-stick, so they'll have established a new niche market like that of Bang-and-Olufson (sp?).

But hey, they'll have something to make noise about (which is theor primary motivation).
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post #96 of 462 Old 08-26-2018, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

This is about the first step, next steps are mass production in Vietnam (cheap, cheap, cheap) with nicely surprising prices.

People got fixated on this $300K. Samsung said they solved mass manufacturing problems and starting production in their TV factory in Vietnam. It is obviously not for making a few sets, you got it?


What fraction of the $300k cost of these displays are you contending is driven by direct labor?
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post #97 of 462 Old 08-26-2018, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
MicroLED is very labor-extensive, and labor in Vietnam will be cheaper than in other areas. But the cost of MicroLED is dominated by the cists of the LEDs themselves, and thise cost the same in Vietnam as anywhere else....
That is not quite accurate.
Samsung is technically not micro led, it is ultrafine led and is in fact a commodity item that you can buy from several vendors.

The primary obstacle and hence cost is in precisely placing 28MM individual ultrafine LEDs on the backplane. That problem has not yet been solved in an automated fashion that would lead to significant order of magnitude cost reductions.

Samsung claimed that they have solved the mass transfer problem with a proprietary flip bonding technique. We shall see but if true, we should see rapid ramp up and cost reductions.
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post #98 of 462 Old 08-26-2018, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
Your beloved LG used 175 inch BandAid to keep with wetting their bottomline, you guys better follow them before OLED starts melting.
loldude, penis-measuring between the Korean chaebols, nothing more.
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post #99 of 462 Old 08-26-2018, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post
That is not quite accurate.Samsung is technically not micro led, it is ultrafine led and is in fact a commodity item that you can buy from several vendors.
Fine, or rather ultrafine, but where the micro ends and ultrafine starts? Anyway, it is doubtful that such differentiation enters common language, the microLED PR train has already left. Displays in small watches and 175" TVs will be called microLED.


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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post
The primary obstacle and hence cost is in precisely placing 28MM individual ultrafine LEDs on the backplane. That problem has not yet been solved in an automated fashion that would lead to significant order of magnitude cost reductions. Samsung claimed that they have solved the mass transfer problem with a proprietary flip bonding technique. We shall see but if true, we should see rapid ramp up and cost reductions.
I do not see any reason for Samsung bluffing here. Moving production to Vietnam is a sign that ramping up and cost reductions are already planned in detail.

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Originally Posted by FriscoDTM View Post
What fraction of the $300k cost of these displays are you contending is driven by direct labor?
I would take it in reverse: For $300k apiece one has no particular pressure to take production to low-wage places.
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post #100 of 462 Old 08-26-2018, 01:08 PM
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People got fixated on this $300K. Samsung said they solved mass manufacturing problems
And Hillary said she was a shoe-in. Is everything everyone ever said true?


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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
MicroLED has several aces in its sleeves. It is an obvious champion candidate for big sizes, say 85+. Add to this HDR, no burn, potential for ultra-precise uniformity (microLEDs can be preselected for light output).
Zero is not "several".

OLED has HDR.
Micro-LED has burn-in.
Hand-picking for uniformity is money.
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post #101 of 462 Old 08-26-2018, 01:26 PM
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Wow, taking as gospel what Samsung said. More nothingburgers.
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post #102 of 462 Old 08-26-2018, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post
That is not quite accurate.
Samsung is technically not micro led, it is ultrafine led and is in fact a commodity item that you can buy from several vendors.

The primary obstacle and hence cost is in precisely placing 28MM individual ultrafine LEDs on the backplane. That problem has not yet been solved in an automated fashion that would lead to significant order of magnitude cost reductions.

Samsung claimed that they have solved the mass transfer problem with a proprietary flip bonding technique. We shall see but if true, we should see rapid ramp up and cost reductions.
MicroLED appears to be a marketing term at this point, irrespective of die size.

Both Samsung and LG have been working on GaN on silicon for several years, Samsung for example reported on GaN on 8" silicon for a white LED application in one of the industry trade publications in 2016. I would assume that they have continued this work and speculate that the tiles in these panels are comprised of LEDs coming from some variant of that type of process, in which they bond an entire wafer full of die and use color conversion for two or all three of the colored pixels. With wafer bonding the die will be registered with a very high level of accuracy at least, and what I'm imagining seems feasible although it's pretty tricky to do and could have plenty of yield and cost issues.

https://compoundsemiconductor.net/ar...on_LED/feature


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post #103 of 462 Old 08-27-2018, 04:17 AM
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So the mini LED marketing term has to do with LCD backlight and the Micro LED marketing term is self emissive LED TV related. I guess a mini LED TV could use micro LEDs and a Micro LED TV could use mini LEDs?

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post #104 of 462 Old 08-27-2018, 04:27 AM
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I'm not too concerned about initial pricing. It has to start somewhere. The original 55" LG OLED debuted at $15K in 2013. Street prices of 55" models today are as low as $1500. If Samsung can achieve a similar 10x reduction in pricing, then these LED walls could become a viable alternative to high-end front projection in a few years. LG's OLED is a dead-end for those of us who require a uniform display. Time will tell if MicroLED suffers a similar fate. Based on my understanding of how the backplanes work and having to assemble them out of tiles, I'm not too optimistic.
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post #105 of 462 Old 08-27-2018, 04:36 AM
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HoustonHoyaFan posted a chart recently which shows were these sizes LEDs in general are used for..must say that mini LEDs will be used in all sizes LCD..that is starting right now.


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post #106 of 462 Old 08-27-2018, 07:44 AM
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MicroLED: Technology Advancements Thread

These were posted over at avforums:





My apologies if these have already appeared here before.
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Last edited by fluxo; 08-27-2018 at 07:48 AM.
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post #107 of 462 Old 08-27-2018, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
MicroLED is very labor-extensive, and labor in Vietnam will be cheaper than in other areas. But the cost of MicroLED is dominated by the cists of the LEDs themselves, and thise cost the same in Vietnam as anywhere else...
OK, you noticed it right, the cost id dominated by LEDs....

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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
It's all relative, isn't it? There are probably what, 10 JumboTrons maufactured everyyear (certainly <100). On that scale, Samsung will be in mass-production in Vietnam.
... which means that Samsung could comfortably make those few $300K sets in Korea without trouble of producing in Vietnam. Vietnam means mass production.

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On the other hand, LGD will manufacture close to 3M WOLED panels this year and will be manufactiring over 3M panels in 2019.
On that scale, Samsung's 'mass-production' won't even get close to the 1% level in 2019.
Heh, one could equally well shout about WOLED being still marginal comparing to the total LCD market after so many years.
When moving into mass production one has to start from something and one obviously can not start from millions of units out of nowhere.

What is important to note is that Samsung is really fast from the first announcement of Jumbo cinema video walls to consumer displays. It indicates that μLed technology has huge potential for ramping up without sinking billions and billions for the start. This is why LG is panicking and hastily assembled demo panel.
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post #108 of 462 Old 08-27-2018, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by FriscoDTM View Post
MicroLED appears to be a marketing term at this point, irrespective of die size.

Both Samsung and LG have been working on GaN on silicon for several years, Samsung for example reported on GaN on 8" silicon for a white LED application in one of the industry trade publications in 2016. I would assume that they have continued this work and speculate that the tiles in these panels are comprised of LEDs coming from some variant of that type of process, in which they bond an entire wafer full of die and use color conversion for two or all three of the colored pixels. With wafer bonding the die will be registered with a very high level of accuracy at least, and what I'm imagining seems feasible although it's pretty tricky to do and could have plenty of yield and cost issues.

https://compoundsemiconductor.net/ar...on_LED/feature


I do not believe Samsung μLED technology is based on wafer scale (especially as huge as 8") GaN on Si process. That would be awesome but GaN is difficult on wafer scale and yield is a big question. Obviously wafers can be used for making μLEDs but they have to be cut in order to selected good ones. Thus, I rather think that their flip chip bonding uses discrete μLEDs or small arrays of them which are preselected so no bad devices are bonded, this in fact can be used to advantage by selecting devices with similar light output contributing to display unifromaity. If they would use white μLEDs with filters that would already be something due to a single semiconductor deposition process.
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post #109 of 462 Old 08-28-2018, 10:35 AM
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In the meantime notice the μLED development starts snowballing with potential for avalanche:


Lextar


AUO

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post #110 of 462 Old 08-28-2018, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
In the meantime notice the μLED development starts snowballing with potential for avalanche:


Lextar


AUO
When heards of animals are running from a flaming forest, that's generally not called an 'avalanche'.

It's about to be exceedingly painful to be in the LCD panel business (in fact, it already is) - did you even read the article you posted:

"Application of micro LED technologies will need the cooperation of panel and device makers, Lextar chairman David Su indicated.

Since TV applications would be too expensive, micro LED technologies will be initially used in small-size displays such as smart wearables, Su said. As there are still technological problems to be solved, application of micro LED technologies will have to wait for one to two years before taking off, Su noted.

Displays using micro LEDs represent a next-generation innovative display technology, featuring ultra-fine pixel, high brightness, high energy saving, long service life, quick response and small thickness, Lextar indicated. Such displays are suitable for use in [/b]smart wearables, smartphones, VR (virtual reality) devices and automotive displays[/b], Lextar said."

In one to two years we are likely to start seeing MicroLED displays in an increasing number of small-screen wearable applications such as phones, VR, and automotive.

Sounds like this man knows what he's talking about. When the manufacturer of the actual LEDs states that TV applications will be to expensive, that's a gap that even free slave labor can't make up for.

Any talk we see at IFA or otherwise about MicroLED TVs is for marketing purposes only and is not going to impact TV consumers one ioata (even after one or two years).
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post #111 of 462 Old 08-28-2018, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by fluxo View Post
These were posted over at avforums:





My apologies if these have already appeared here before.
That is obviously no self emissive Display.
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post #112 of 462 Old 08-28-2018, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by FriscoDTM View Post
MicroLED appears to be a marketing term at this point, irrespective of die size...
The issue is not the marketing term, the issue is the size of the LED components as far as creating TV sized consumer devices.

First hurdle.
The LED components used in "The Wall" are too large to ever be used to create a 4K 75" or smaller TV. Unfortunately even at this ultra fine size there still is not mass-production level mass transfer capability to produces units in the quantity per time necessary to create consumer priced TVs. If Samsung has solved the mass transfer problem for this size then you could certainly see the rapid price decline from $350K for their 146" to say $50K. Still not a consumer TV price.

2nd Hurdle
Sony's C-LED is a true microLED at .03mm so could be used in TV sizes. Sony seems even further away from production quality mass transfer and in fact have to place their LEDs in a larger pixel pitch (1.2MM) so 220" for a 4K product. Sony is selling their 4K C LED for $1.8MM and apparently it takes them 4 months to produce enough tiles for a single 4K unit.


Still a long way to go before this tech is consumer TV ready but Samsung has to be thinking once they get a stable production line even on the current .84MM pitch "The Wall" that a $15K, 140" modular TV is a viable consumer product!
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post #113 of 462 Old 08-28-2018, 12:33 PM
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That is obviously no self emissive Display.


Probably my photo

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post #114 of 462 Old 08-28-2018, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post
The issue is not the marketing term, the issue is the size of the LED components as far as creating TV sized consumer devices.

First hurdle.
The LED components used in "The Wall" are too large to ever be used to create a 4K 75" or smaller TV. Unfortunately even at this ultra fine size there still is not mass-production level mass transfer capability to produces units in the quantity per time necessary to create consumer priced TVs. If Samsung has solved the mass transfer problem for this size then you could certainly see the rapid price decline from $350K for their 146" to say $50K. Still not a consumer TV price.

2nd Hurdle
Sony's C-LED is a true microLED at .03mm so could be used in TV sizes. Sony seems even further away from production quality mass transfer and in fact have to place their LEDs in a larger pixel pitch (1.2MM) so 220" for a 4K product. Sony is selling their 4K C LED for $1.8MM and apparently it takes them 4 months to produce enough tiles for a single 4K unit.


Still a long way to go before this tech is consumer TV ready but Samsung has to be thinking once they get a stable production line even on the current .84MM pitch "The Wall" that a $15K, 140" modular TV is a viable consumer product!
Very well put.

I suppose they could also think that a 'perfect' 70" modular 1080p TV for under $4K could be a viable consumer product as well, but right now this is a great deal of smoke and precious little fire...

(and for the recent MiniLED posts, I believe this is a MicroLED thread ).
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post #115 of 462 Old 08-29-2018, 03:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post
The issue is not the marketing term, the issue is the size of the LED components as far as creating TV sized consumer devices.
First hurdle.
The LED components used in "The Wall" are too large to ever be used to create a 4K 75" or smaller TV. Unfortunately even at this ultra fine size there still is not mass-production level mass transfer capability to produces units in the quantity per time necessary to create consumer priced TVs. If Samsung has solved the mass transfer problem for this size then you could certainly see the rapid price decline from $350K for their 146" to say $50K. Still not a consumer TV price.
2nd Hurdle
Sony's C-LED is a true microLED at .03mm so could be used in TV sizes. Sony seems even further away from production quality mass transfer and in fact have to place their LEDs in a larger pixel pitch (1.2MM) so 220" for a 4K product. Sony is selling their 4K C LED for $1.8MM and apparently it takes them 4 months to produce enough tiles for a single 4K unit.
Still a long way to go before this tech is consumer TV ready but Samsung has to be thinking once they get a stable production line even on the current .84MM pitch "The Wall" that a $15K, 140" modular TV is a viable consumer product!

You would be right if no announcement from Samsung they solved problems with μLED transfer using proprietary flip chip bonding. Now moving for mass production to TV factory in Vietnam. Note that Sony kept silent on their prospects for productivization which is clear they have not managed to solve the manufacturing issues.

Naysayers here will be moaning this is only PR but Samsung is reputable No. 1 TV manufacturer, not throwing empty words. Evidence that μLED is getting red hot is hasty jumping on the μLED bandwagon by the LG. This obviously is only PR but a double-edged sword for the LG since it undermines their promotion of OLED as the ultimate technology.
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post #116 of 462 Old 08-29-2018, 06:01 AM
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AUO 12.1 inch microLED
Quote:
12.1-inch micro LED display technology with an impressive 169 PPI pixel density and resolution (1920 x 720) achieved by micro LEDs less than 30 micrometers in size. Each pixel can be lighted independently to realize the best of high dynamic range and low power consumption. Combining advanced color conversion technologies, the display is able to yield marvelous color performance.
https://www.auo.com/en-global/New_Ar...Product_180828

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post #117 of 462 Old 08-29-2018, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
In the meantime notice the μLED development starts snowballing with potential for avalanche: Lextar AUO
Please do not conflate two completely different technologies.

There is wafer array micro-LED - essentially a chip, where multiple micro-LED are manufactured on a wafer arranged in the desired grid. This is the technology being developed for smart watches and VR. 6000 ppi has been achieved. Its cost is driven by area: LED substrate and processing are expensive. Advancements in this tech aim to reduce area cost. The gains are linear.

There is discrete micro-LED - instead of manufacturing one sparse array, the LED are spaced much tighter, cut up, then spread over a larger area. This allows much less wafer area to be used for large screens such as CLEDIS or The Wall. Its cost is driven by pixel count: the transfer requires individual manipulation of LEDs. Advancements here aim to reduce assembly cost.

Emitter chemistry is the only thing in common between the two techs. The former is microelectronics, the latter is electronics assembly. We really need two separate names for them. Since "mini-LED" has been taken, let's refer to the former technology as "nano-LED". A bit of an overstatement, but its feature size can dip under a micron.

What you linked to is examples of "nano-LED". It's not relevant to large consumer TVs. The LED wafers must be cut up and spread to deliver acceptable cost per unit area.
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post #118 of 462 Old 08-30-2018, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
AUO 12.1 inch microLED




Why would they make a 16:6 (or 8:3 if you prefer) ratio display? I guess it is close to 2.35:1 but not quite.

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post #119 of 462 Old 08-30-2018, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnalogHD View Post
Please do not conflate two completely different technologies.
There is wafer array micro-LED - essentially a chip, where multiple micro-LED are manufactured on a wafer arranged in the desired grid. This is the technology being developed for smart watches and VR. 6000 ppi has been achieved. Its cost is driven by area: LED substrate and processing are expensive. Advancements in this tech aim to reduce area cost. The gains are linear.
There is discrete micro-LED - instead of manufacturing one sparse array, the LED are spaced much tighter, cut up, then spread over a larger area. This allows much less wafer area to be used for large screens such as CLEDIS or The Wall. Its cost is driven by pixel count: the transfer requires individual manipulation of LEDs. Advancements here aim to reduce assembly cost.
Emitter chemistry is the only thing in common between the two techs. The former is microelectronics, the latter is electronics assembly. We really need two separate names for them. Since "mini-LED" has been taken, let's refer to the former technology as "nano-LED". A bit of an overstatement, but its feature size can dip under a micron.
What you linked to is examples of "nano-LED". It's not relevant to large consumer TVs. The LED wafers must be cut up and spread to deliver acceptable cost per unit area.

Technology of LEDs with sizes within the micrometer range is called μLED


There was an error in my AUO link which refers to the display already seen here:


AUO


There it is stated AUO uses LEDs of less than 30 micrometer,



Lextar



Lextar uses LEDs of sizes below 20 micrometer.


There are thus no nanometer sized LEDs here, this is μLED technology.


Overall it is doubtful that mini- micro-, nano- LED terminology will catch up.
This train has already left with μLED on its carriages and thus everything from

cinema walls to watches will be μLED,


Quote:
Originally Posted by lsorensen View Post
Why would they make a 16:6 (or 8:3 if you prefer) ratio display? I guess it is close to 2.35:1 but not quite.

Their target are for these displays is automotive cockpits.
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post #120 of 462 Old 08-31-2018, 08:24 AM
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There are nanometer sized LEDs based on nanowire structures, and the term nanoLED might be best reserved for that type of device unless the marketing guys have already claimed it for something else. A nanowire device is fabricated using a patterned substrate wafer, such that the crystal growth of the LED structure is constrained to the openings in the pattern and you produce a grid of tiny LED pillars instead of a blanket film across the entire wafer. This should not be confused with other processes that rely on blanket LED films that later get dry etched during processing. Approaches like this have the potential benefit of reducing issues with lattice strain mismatch, thermal expansion mismatch, and other problems in conventional processes, but they are not without their own challenges. Uniformity and control of the crystal growth process is already very challenging, and now the nanowires require a fabrication process that passivates the sidewalls of the nanowires so you don't short the devices. There are several companies working on this approach for display because of the increase in the wavelength range that you can achieve with conventional GaN and other potential benefits, but it's not clear how manufacturable it really is or if the benefits outweigh the costs and complexities.

Here is an example taken from one of Glo's presentations:



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