MicroLED: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 407 Old 01-07-2019, 04:30 AM
 
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Microled is a complete fad, you are not going to see a consumer micro led in a 4 figure dollar price before 2025. These modular tiles stitched together for massive screens are not consumer tv's, they are suitable for advertisement billboards.
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post #182 of 407 Old 01-07-2019, 05:41 AM
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Of the 75" TV, Samsung rep says:

Quote:
It may be something that's a year down the road, two years down the road.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/technolo...g-tvs-revealed

I'm hoping the technology matures but it is not a competitor to OLED today. And I love the GIANT barrier that keeps people far away from the 75" screen.
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post #183 of 407 Old 01-07-2019, 05:49 AM
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While I have no doubt these micro -leds will be the top performers down the road...right now they have one obstacle to over come before they can steal the lead from Oleds. Oleds will be offered in 88", 75" and 65" 8K. So the led dies have to get much smaller yet to make up a 8K 75" panel for example. Right now the 75" is only 4K.

Add price. Oled panel costs to manufacture should drop like a rock once mass manufacturing gets up to full steam. And that should happen soon. Might happen with micro-leds too...but will take time.

By the time 8k micro leds are developed and affordable...they will be too late to the party. 8K Oleds will have a firm foothold...and 16K (the last resolution jump for a long time me thinks) will be knocking on the door.

Where I do see these possibly making strong headways will be in movie theaters.


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post #184 of 407 Old 01-07-2019, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Menarini View Post
Microled is a complete fad, you are not going to see a consumer micro led in a 4 figure dollar price before 2025. These modular tiles stitched together for massive screens are not consumer tv's, they are suitable for advertisement billboards.
How does that make it a fad exactly? Its a tech that is currently in miniaturization and experimentation stage, of course, its going to be wicked expensive and seem impossible to make it to the consumer markets, then one day a breakthrough will make it mass producible at the size we need.

We all know this is the end game of current display technology, its where its all been going. Plasma, LCD, OLED were all just steps towards this. It'll be another 5+ years before we see it at consumer prices, but that does not make it a fad.
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post #185 of 407 Old 01-07-2019, 06:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pagusas View Post
How does that make it a fad exactly? Its a tech that is currently in miniaturization and experimentation stage, of course, its going to be wicked expensive and seem impossible to make it to the consumer markets, then one day a breakthrough will make it mass producible at the size we need.

We all know this is the end game of current display technology, its where its all been going. Plasma, LCD, OLED were all just steps towards this. It'll be another 5+ years before we see it at consumer prices, but that does not make it a fad.
for today's market it is indeed a fad.
here's the definition of fad
'an intense and widely shared enthusiasm for something, a craze'

some people have an intense enthusiasm for it right now, but fact is it's not happening at affordable consumer level prices before 2025.
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post #186 of 407 Old 01-07-2019, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by AnalogHD View Post
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Originally Posted by Achillias View Post
Thank you Samsung, ... No potential burn-ins problems with a much higher peak brightness and the same blacks. I'm especially happy that Micro-LEDs don't suffer from burn-ins
Why do you post unqualified statements without knowing any of the facts?


1) You have no idea whether micro-LED suffer from BI.
If LED backlit TVs and monitors are any indication, there definitely is potential for BI: LED in LCD backlights lose a lot of brightness as they age, down to half and less in a few years.


2) You don't know if the brightness is much higher.
So far, only 1,500 nits has been advertised for micro-LED, which is about 2 dB of extra dynamic range.


3) The blacks in some micro-LED walls (we don't know if this applies to Sammy) are actually better, because the void between the LED can be filled with a matte blackout material, instead of a flat glass pane as in a TV.


4) You probably aren't going to be able to afford it within the next decade or so. So far only six-figure prices have been quoted.
No you are posting unqualified statements.

1: you should learn some technology lessons before coming up with this nonsense. Microleds are not organic therefore burn-ins are almost impossible. And lcds are proven as a technology which can handle static images far above any produced OLED. You sounds like a fan girl.

2: again get yourself educated, the technology of Microleds have already been proven to show far higher screen brightness than any oleds could ever imagine.

3: Microleds are able to produce the same black screen as OLED. Just by turning off individual pixels. No measurements needed. Just facts. You can’t get a more black screen when individual pixels are just turned off.

4: You are neither going to be able to afford it within the next decade or so. But that doesn’t mean you can’t root for it. With your mentally OLED’s where still out of reach for most people. You’ll need people to invest in technology to get the mass overal productions cost lower. Get it?!

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post #187 of 407 Old 01-07-2019, 06:31 AM
 
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I think by the time an emmisive mled is available at consumer sized screens and prices, oled would have made significant adavancements, we'd have rgb oleds by then, 8k oleds as standard and panels with much brighter peaks.
Would people even care by that time? Probably people who get scared of burn in might, but in most other areas, oleds would already be top notch.
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post #188 of 407 Old 01-07-2019, 06:33 AM
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By the time 8k micro leds are developed and affordable...they will be too late to the party. 8K Oleds will have a firm foothold
OLED will never overcome image-retention problems and brightness limitations. Micro LED wins inevitably. It's just a matter of time.
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post #189 of 407 Old 01-07-2019, 06:44 AM
 
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I can understand why the lcd crowd carries this 'wishful optimism' for consumer mled. They are just frustrated with the blooming and milky contrast that even the best fald lcd's still cannot completely avoid, lcd technology has become stagnant and and they know it. They just want something to come out that can compete with oled. Oled has been beating lcd's in tv shootouts for at least 3 years now.
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post #190 of 407 Old 01-07-2019, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Dimon.Zorg View Post
OLED will never overcome image-retention problems and brightness limitations. Micro LED wins inevitably. It's just a matter of time.
Your right...leds, with proper heat sinking should offer totally care free viewing and long lifespans...and be capable of perfect blacks while offering much higher brightness capabilities. ML's will no doubt be the technology to beat down the road with Oleds taking the back seat.

But pricing...that might be a big stumbling block. So while I predict ML's will trounce Oleds in terms of performance eventually...they will not be able to compete price wise and therefore in sales volume. They will remain elusive for the average Joe. While Oleds will become cheaper and cheaper...
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post #191 of 407 Old 01-07-2019, 07:09 AM
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While I have no doubt these micro -leds will be the top performers down the road...right now they have one obstacle to over come before they can steal the lead from Oleds. Oleds will be offered in 88", 75" and 65" 8K. So the led dies have to get much smaller yet to make up a 8K 75" panel for example. Right now the 75" is only 4K.

Add price. Oled panel costs to manufacture should drop like a rock once mass manufacturing gets up to full steam. And that should happen soon. Might happen with micro-leds too...but will take time.

By the time 8k micro leds are developed and affordable...they will be too late to the party. 8K Oleds will have a firm foothold...and 16K (the last resolution jump for a long time me thinks) will be knocking on the door.

Where I do see these possibly making strong headways will be in movie theaters.

What is with the obsession with 8k? 8k won't fully be relevant until 8k blu ray is a thing and that won't be until at least 2025.. Unless someone has a big obession to play pc games in 8k, is a multi millionair, I would say you need a networth of at least 5 million.... and doesn't mind paying a HUUUUUUGE premium price for an OLED that's 88 inches this year or next etc.... You can make an arguement just buying a 8k QLED tv for that if you're rich and spending a lot less, but you're specifically talking about an 8k OLED..... Hell, even if I had no money issues, I would take a Micro LED 75 inch 4k tv with 120fps in games, compared to a much more expensive 8k OLED 88 inch getting 60fps in 8k, which also can take up to twice the graphics power needed etc.... but I digress..

I mainly wanted to make this repsonce because you're just flat out wrong about Micro LED being late to the party... Once the prices of Micro LED match or get really close to OLED prices... OLED's will stop being manufactured and they will become extinct like Plasma. Micro LEd will be taking over the ''party'' they won't be late to it...
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post #192 of 407 Old 01-07-2019, 07:18 AM
 
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I mainly wanted to make this repsonce because you're just flat out wrong about Micro LED being late to the party... Once the prices of Micro LED match or get really close to OLED prices... OLED's will stop being manufactured and they will become extinct like Plasma. Micro LEd will be taking over the ''party'' they won't be late to it...
Once? I believe scientists will discover dinosaur remnants before that. Oled already has a foothold in market, cost cutting and resultant price drops will therefore happen much faster. 4k oleds in few years will be very affordable. Whereas mled will always be playing catch up in price to oled right since launch.
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post #193 of 407 Old 01-07-2019, 07:44 AM
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What is with the obsession with 8k? 8k won't fully be relevant until 8k blu ray is a thing and that won't be until at least 2025.. Unless someone has a big obession to play pc games in 8k, is a multi millionair, I would say you need a networth of at least 5 million.... and doesn't mind paying a HUUUUUUGE premium price for an OLED that's 88 inches this year or next etc.... You can make an arguement just buying a 8k QLED tv for that if you're rich and spending a lot less, but you're specifically talking about an 8k OLED..... Hell, even if I had no money issues, I would take a Micro LED 75 inch 4k tv with 120fps in games, compared to a much more expensive 8k OLED 88 inch getting 60fps in 8k, which also can take up to twice the graphics power needed etc.... but I digress..

I mainly wanted to make this repsonce because you're just flat out wrong about Micro LED being late to the party... Once the prices of Micro LED match or get really close to OLED prices... OLED's will stop being manufactured and they will become extinct like Plasma. Micro LEd will be taking over the ''party'' they won't be late to it...
So you predict a 4K 75" Micro LED will be less expensive than an 8K Oled. Could be. But I'm thinking it would be the other way around.

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post #194 of 407 Old 01-07-2019, 08:47 AM
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Looks like Samsung is ready to start moving on it's Oled tv's.

More details emerge on Samsung's QD-OLED TV Plans

Samsung Display is developing hybrid QD-OLED TV technology, and according to estimates, the company aims to begin trial production in 2019. It seems that Samsung is managing to overcome the technical challenges and the company is preparing to start production of such QD-OLED TVs in 2019.

More: https://www.oled-info.com/more-detai...-oled-tv-plans

Tells me MicroLED's will remain in the realm of the rich...for now. And commercial enterprises, display, theater ect.
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post #195 of 407 Old 01-07-2019, 09:03 AM
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Gee, this is almost as good as one of the dozen or more "speculation" threads after the CES each year.

.
.
Recording free OTA TV for 'time shifting' has been here since 1975. Will there be DVR's to do the same when ATSC3 obsoletes existing DVR's??
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post #196 of 407 Old 01-07-2019, 09:14 AM
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I don't know what will happen 5 years from now, but I'm glad something that can theoretically compete with OLED is showing promise. Otherwise LG will just sit on their laurels and make incremental improvements each year. OLED has stagnated for the past couple of years. It may be very close to being as good as it's ever going to get.
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post #197 of 407 Old 01-07-2019, 09:41 AM
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The 75 inch microLED is being displayed at CES. However, it does seem to have some bugs to work out. Way out of my price range anyway.


LG 65E6P OLED - LG 65EF9500 OLED - OPPO 203 - OPPO 103D

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post #198 of 407 Old 01-07-2019, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Achillias View Post
No you are posting unqualified statements.

1: you should learn some technology lessons before coming up with this nonsense. Microleds are not organic therefore burn-ins are almost impossible. And lcds are proven as a technology which can handle static images far above any produced OLED. You sounds like a fan girl.

2: again get yourself educated, the technology of Microleds have already been proven to show far higher screen brightness than any oleds could ever imagine.

3: Microleds are able to produce the same black screen as OLED. Just by turning off individual pixels. No measurements needed. Just facts. You can’t get a more black screen when individual pixels are just turned off.

4: You are neither going to be able to afford it within the next decade or so. But that doesn’t mean you can’t root for it. With your mentally OLED’s where still out of reach for most people. You’ll need people to invest in technology to get the mass overal productions cost lower. Get it?!
Every emissive light technology that ages will suffer from BI. Period. LEDs age, microLED will age and thus suffer from BI. We just dont know how severy and fast it will be. And btw it makes no sense to compare a technology that will enter the market in 5-6 years with todays TVs.

MicroLED has not proven anything in a TV. We just have bright prototypes of MicroLEDs für HMDs and smartwatches. Different game.
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post #199 of 407 Old 01-07-2019, 10:08 AM
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So what? Remember what was the cost of OLED when it came first, μLED is an entirely new class of display and its price should not be compared to (even the most advanced) LCD. That said, Samsung is wisely targeting first the professional application market with tiled display concept. Not only modular display is of interest there but even the moving tiles look very attractive. Addressing professional market will definitely help with the economy while developing single tile displays for consumers.

On can see here why LG stopped development of 10.5G OLED plant for XXL displays. At the time this plant was going to be ready Samsung should have a lineup of consumer μLED displays.
You seem to be a true master at spreading misinformation.

The 10.5G plant is optimized for the production of 65" (8-up) and 75" (6-up) WOLED panels. Those two panel size will drop significantly in cost versus the 3-up and 2-up manufacturing LG currently has on 8.5G sheets (which wastes a full 1/3 of the sheet and all materials).

LG can produce all of the 88" and 98" WOLED panels they want on their 8.5G manufacturimg line, which can even produce a single 110" WOLED out of an 8.5G sheet for show-and-tell.

Even if the 10.5G ramp up is delayed (still unclear, since it is only the initial 10.5G LCD phase that LG has wisely decided to abort), at most, we're talking about a delay of LGs ability to offer 130" WOLEDs.

Oh wait, perhaps that's what you meant by 'XXL' .
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post #200 of 407 Old 01-07-2019, 12:30 PM
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I think irkuck blocked me, I will pay him in kind in return.
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post #201 of 407 Old 01-07-2019, 04:04 PM
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All I can say is, having competition tech being shown/developed, only means that in the long term we as consumers will benefit from OLED, MicroLED or QD-OLED in quality & price. Certainly exciting times ahead in our search for the perfect display!
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post #202 of 407 Old 01-08-2019, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
I think irkuck blocked me, I will pay him in kind in return.

You have free return, and I am just redirecting to an article which is assessing things rightly:


MicroLED is almost certainly the future; the only question has been how long it would take that future to materialize...
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post #203 of 407 Old 01-08-2019, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Achillias View Post
1: you should learn some technology lessons before coming up with this nonsense. Microleds are not organic therefore burn-ins are almost impossible.
Inorganic LED do burn in.
Inorganic plasma and CRT do burn in.
LED walls specifically, which micro-LED is a smaller version of, do burn in.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Achillias View Post
2: again get yourself educated, the technology of Microleds have already been proven to show far higher screen brightness than any oleds could ever imagine.
1,500 nits vs 950 on OLED, to be specific.


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Originally Posted by Achillias View Post
3: Microleds are able to produce the same black screen as OLED. Just by turning off individual pixels. No measurements needed. Just facts. You can’t get a more black screen when individual pixels are just turned off.
Incorrect.


Anyone who has ever used projectors knows that pixels on-off contrast isn't the only factor in black level. Reflections of the bright pixels from the walls light up the rest of the screen.

White projection screens thus have the worst contrast. Dark ones, tolerable. LCD are better. OLED are pretty good. A velvet-covered room steps everything up a notch. Sony has demonstrated CLEDIS with excellent reflection rejection, but it's not the exact same technology.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Achillias View Post
You’ll need people to invest in technology to get the mass overal productions cost lower. Get it?!
You don't understand.

The current micro-LED production technology is not scalable - that is, it does not respond to production scale increase with a meaningful unit cost decrease.


A completely different manufacturing technology - one that eliminates discrete LED to be assembled, but does not rely on covering the whole screen in chips - is required to bring micro-LED into consumer price range.

Put it this way: investing billions into hand-crafted African wood carvings won't make them meaningfully cheaper. Investing millions into a basement in China and a few cheap CNC machines will - but the product won't be hand-crafted or African anymore, and it won't in any way depend on the investments in the original. Different technology, different product.
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post #204 of 407 Old 01-08-2019, 06:34 AM
 
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Gee, this is almost as good as one of the dozen or more "speculation" threads after the CES each year.
Yeah, I'm starting to notice the "You just don't want ____ to win because you're a ____ fanboy" BS (insert your least-favorite/favorite techs) starting to creep in again. Like that's always useful.
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post #205 of 407 Old 01-08-2019, 06:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Menarini View Post
These modular tiles stitched together for massive screens are not consumer tv's, they are suitable for advertisement billboards.
"Massive screens", perhaps. But I think you are ignoring how yield failure kills products even for smaller screens when the technology is new.

The reason that stitched together tile technology might be such a potentially huge win is that the failure is isolated to a small patch. Right now, they're required to build ever larger fab units for ever larger and larger panels. And if anything fails on those enormous panels (at the end stage of a long production cycle), then the entire thing gets scrubbed. This is true for all size panels as well.

If they can bring the seam tolerances downward quite a ways (remember, this is brand new), yield failure will not impact entire screens, because the screen itself could become part of the assembly process. Hopefully then prices would tumble.

Among the things in the way?
1. Seam reduction.
2. Output uniformity between tiles.
3. Pixel densities need to change between sizes.

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post #206 of 407 Old 01-08-2019, 06:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AnalogHD View Post
Anyone who has ever used projectors knows that pixels on-off contrast isn't the only factor in black level. Reflections of the bright pixels from the walls light up the rest of the screen.

White projection screens thus have the worst contrast. Dark ones, tolerable. LCD are better. OLED are pretty good. A velvet-covered room steps everything up a notch. Sony has demonstrated CLEDIS with excellent reflection rejection, but it's not the exact same technology.
Yep, and the reflections right off the facing plane are so overlooked as an issue when people check these things out in person. It's one of the reasons that looking at a display on the show floor at Best Buy is so incredibly dicey. A great deal of it is confirmation bias when looking at one screen over the next.

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post #207 of 407 Old 01-08-2019, 06:57 AM
 
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"Massive screens", perhaps. But I think you are ignoring how yield failure kills products even for smaller products.

The reason that stitched together tile technology is such a potentially huge win is that the failure is isolated to a small patch. Right now, they're required to build ever larger fab units for ever larger and larger panels. And if anything fails on those enormous panels (at the end stage of a long production cycle), then the entire thing gets scrubbed. This is true for all size panels as well.

If they can bring the seam tolerances downward quite a ways (remember, this is brand new), yield failure will not impact entire screens, because the screen itself could become part of the assembly process. Hopefully then prices would tumble.

Among the things in the way?
1. Seam reduction.
2. Output uniformity between tiles.
3. Pixel densities need to change between sizes.
If this technology stays as a modular 'tiles' arrangement it will simply not succeed for consumer tv's. Samsung has a lot of things to sort out, this right now from a consumer tv standpoint feels like cledis that sony showed at ces 2012.
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post #208 of 407 Old 01-08-2019, 07:19 AM
 
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If this technology stays as a modular 'tiles' arrangement it will simply not succeed for consumer tv's. Samsung has a lot of things to sort out, this right now from a consumer tv standpoint feels like cledis that sony showed at ces 2012.
It's precisely because Samsung "has a lot of things to sort out" that a more modular panel production would help mLED to approach Walmart-esque pricing.

That 55" Sony Crystal LED show demo made us all hold our breath temporarily for a true contender to LCD and (simply because it was emissive) plasma. @rogo , and a very select few "insiders" knew from the get-go that it was a yield disaster and simply couldn't be produced. We were all hoping though despite @rogo rightfully pounding sensibility into us.

If tile issues are mitigated (given the list I gave), then absolutely this would directly impact the screen production for home TVs. The issue would be whether or not tile production would outrace, say, 65" whole panel production in $$ viability.

I've been struggling to come up with a viewing distance that would be acceptable for a seam to vanish. Perhaps something like 4' for a 65" (?), but I'm not sure because as with uber-resolutions, "seeing it" and "seeing it's effect" are two different things.

I find it analogous to the SDE that we suffered with from time to time in the 2K days.

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post #209 of 407 Old 01-08-2019, 08:19 AM
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Inorganic LEDs can exhibit gradual degradation like every optoelectronic device, and the rate depends on many factors related to the design, fabrication, and operating conditions. They of course can be reliable in some applications, but every situation will be different. A low power application in a package that has good thermal resistance will be very reliable, but as you allow the chip to heat up, increase the current density, etc., the degradation mechanisms will start to increase. In a display where you might be trying to minimize the chip material cost by shrinking the die size and maximize the brightness by cranking up the power, especially where there is not going to be a nice heat sink, there is no guarantee that conventional low power, low brightness LED reliability metrics are valid. And it's also not valid to assume that a GaAs based red LED chip will degrade at the same rate as a blue GaN based LED, or that QD based films don't end up having their own gradual degradation mechanisms that could vary by color. The manufacturers will likely focus on minimizing cost and delivering the highest brightness they can get away with than worrying about or disclosing the mean time to 10% power loss, because perception of reliability and peak brightness at t=0 will be the most important in the marketing battles.
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post #210 of 407 Old 01-08-2019, 11:21 AM
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"Massive screens", perhaps. But I think you are ignoring how yield failure kills products even for smaller screens when the technology is new.

The reason that stitched together tile technology might be such a potentially huge win is that the failure is isolated to a small patch. Right now, they're required to build ever larger fab units for ever larger and larger panels. And if anything fails on those enormous panels (at the end stage of a long production cycle), then the entire thing gets scrubbed. This is true for all size panels as well.

If they can bring the seam tolerances downward quite a ways (remember, this is brand new), yield failure will not impact entire screens, because the screen itself could become part of the assembly process. Hopefully then prices would tumble.

Among the things in the way?
1. Seam reduction.
2. Output uniformity between tiles.
3. Pixel densities need to change between sizes.
I think you are overlooking one of the single greatest weaknesses of the tiled architecture.

Yes, it may reduce yield loss to make manufacturing of tiles viable, but tile-to-tile variations will mean that valibration will become an utter nightmare.

For big corporations shelling out big $$$s for video walls and for demos at CES, no problem. Tiles can be pre-sorted to match as closely as possible and then calibration can be performed on each individual tile to deliver a uniform field.

But for a consumer product costing a few thousand bucks, there's no viable solution in sight.

Samsung is getting alot of buzz and generating a great deal of excitement with their 4K 75" MicroLED demo - it's getting all the visibility in 2019. Meanwhile, the QDBOLED is eing quietely shown in a private suite...

My suspicion is that the entire initiative into consumer MicroLED TV is a misdirection so that Samsung can spring a big, fat, wopping surprise on the market a year from now.

Don't get me wrong, MicroLED is impressive and it is here to stay. It is JumboTron 2.0. It will have a market and will be ramped into modestly-high volume production of tiles (used to deliver moderately-low volumes of giant screens). But a 75" MicroLED TV in Best Buy? Just ain't gonna happen (at least based on what is known today).
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