LG 55" C8 4K HDR OLED TV First Impressions and Review - Page 18 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #511 of 590 Old 04-05-2018, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Callsign_Vega View Post
Upscaling 1440p to 4K isn't going to look very good since it isn't divisible by whole numbers. Plus you still have to deal with LCD ghosting/trailing at 120 Hz.
I don't know about this. Everything that I run at 1440p vs.1080p looks much more sharper and closer to the 4K tac sharpness... It's a very visible improvement.
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post #512 of 590 Old 04-05-2018, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by lsorensen View Post
Hmm, I think the advantages LG's x8 models have over the A8F might be a bit more brightness (not a lot, but some), and depending on the model, the LG might be cheaper? Oh some think Android TV is awful, or too slow on the Sony so I guess that might count as an advantage for the LG. Hmm, LG has 4 HDMI ports that are full 18Gbps, while Sony has 2 at 18Gbps and 2 at 10.8Gbps. Some people think Sony's remote is crappy.
and... Less aggressive ABL and better HDR tone mapping according to some. I've been out of the loop but early reports suggest vertical banding is much improved, is this the case for the A8F too? As for non PQ attributes I would add you don't have HDR on the native YouTube app.....err, I wish Sony would ditch Android!

Sounds like compressed sources and motion are still handled better on the Sonys so if you're a heavy cable user...

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post #513 of 590 Old 04-06-2018, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
and... Less aggressive ABL and better HDR tone mapping according to some. I've been out of the loop but early reports suggest vertical banding is much improved, is this the case for the A8F too? As for non PQ attributes I would add you don't have HDR on the native YouTube app.....err, I wish Sony would ditch Android!

Sounds like compressed sources and motion are still handled better on the Sonys so if you're a heavy cable user...


Android is not the issue - anyone who has used a nvidia shield from 2015 will testify it’s still the best streaming box

Sony uses a $25 raspberry pi cpu that is slower than a burner phone. That is the problem. The cores are maxed out just navigating the menu
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post #514 of 590 Old 04-06-2018, 05:43 AM
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Although being offtopic, it needs to be said: the SOC Sony is using on their TVs is a joke. Nothing more, nothing less. Considering the money one spends on one of their TVs they could at least have the decency to include a SOC that can be found on $40 chinese tv boxes.

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post #515 of 590 Old 04-06-2018, 09:11 AM
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post #516 of 590 Old 04-08-2018, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by gorman42 View Post
Although being offtopic, it needs to be said: the SOC Sony is using on their TVs is a joke. Nothing more, nothing less. Considering the money one spends on one of their TVs they could at least have the decency to include a SOC that can be found on $40 chinese tv boxes.


Imagine in their $8k TVs if they used the $12 Nvidia tegra (shield and switch)
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post #517 of 590 Old 04-08-2018, 08:41 AM
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Right now I have an LG EF9500 55', and I really do love it, but I want to upgrade to a 65'. The only reason I want to do so is for the size, but I figure if I'm going to upgrade I may as well try to go for some more features, and right now the only thing I think this TV is missing is 4K @ 120 Hz. As far as I can tell it seems like that isn't a thing yet. Am I wrong on this?

Also when I am ready to upgrade does anyone have recommendations on where I can sell mine with no online sales history? Not sure how easy of a time I'd have on a place like Ebay trying to sell something for around 1K with no other items sold.
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post #518 of 590 Old 04-08-2018, 09:34 AM
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So it seems that the Sony A8 is pretty much the same as the A1E, so the LGs will be the best TV for 2018 I’m guessing. Better TVs at a better price, can’t wait for fall to upgrade.
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post #519 of 590 Old 04-08-2018, 09:38 AM
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^^^^^^
I believe the LG and the Sony are now at the same price point.

LG will have an edge because it has a slightly brighter HDR image and has better ABL management. The Sony still has better motion and upscaling giving a slightly sharper and more detailed picture. It may be a tie this year

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post #520 of 590 Old 04-08-2018, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
^^^^^^
I believe the LG and the Sony are now at the same price point.

LG will have an edge because it has a slightly brighter HDR image and has better ABL management. The Sony still has better motion and upscaling giving a slightly sharper and more detailed picture. It may be a tie this year
Naw wont be a tie LG is brighter also better ABL and HDR performance.

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post #521 of 590 Old 04-08-2018, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
^^^^^^
I believe the LG and the Sony are now at the same price point.

LG will have an edge because it has a slightly brighter HDR image and has better ABL management. The Sony still has better motion and upscaling giving a slightly sharper and more detailed picture. It may be a tie this year
It was close last year but LG won the shootout, with LG improving their panels quite a bit this year I think they will definitely win again.

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post #522 of 590 Old 04-08-2018, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
^^^^^^
I believe the LG and the Sony are now at the same price point.

LG will have an edge because it has a slightly brighter HDR image and has better ABL management. The Sony still has better motion and upscaling giving a slightly sharper and more detailed picture. It may be a tie this year
You're killing me here. It is a tough call between the two. I'm debating between the E/C8 and A8F and it really is no easy choice between either considering everything I've read so far. I got plenty of time to see some good quality reviews before I make my final decision but so far I'm leaning toward LG.

I conversed with Robert yesterday on HTF about the LG improvements compared to the previous 2016/17 models. I like his comments about the near black detail improvements. He also mentioned some up conversion and motion improvement.

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post #523 of 590 Old 04-08-2018, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
^^^^^^
I believe the LG and the Sony are now at the same price point.

LG will have an edge because it has a slightly brighter HDR image and has better ABL management. The Sony still has better motion and upscaling giving a slightly sharper and more detailed picture. It may be a tie this year
@ today's inflated launch pricing, perhaps

Come November and the Black Friday 'dip', I very much doubt that price parity holds...
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post #524 of 590 Old 04-08-2018, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Daryl L View Post
You're killing me here. It is a tough call between the two. I'm debating between the E/C8 and A8F and it really is no easy choice between either considering everything I've read so far. I got plenty of time before I had a great day plenty of time to see some good quality reviews.

I conversed with Robert yesterday on HTF about the LG improvements compared to the previous 2016/17 models. I like his comments about the near black detail improvements. He also mentioned some up conversion and motion improvement.
Last year people were getting 65” C7s for $2400 free shipping from Beach Camera and other retailers before July, should be even cheaper this year.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/322-ol...-series-3.html
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post #525 of 590 Old 04-08-2018, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotobu View Post
Right now I have an LG EF9500 55', and I really do love it, but I want to upgrade to a 65'. The only reason I want to do so is for the size, but I figure if I'm going to upgrade I may as well try to go for some more features, and right now the only thing I think this TV is missing is 4K @ 120 Hz. As far as I can tell it seems like that isn't a thing yet. Am I wrong on this?

Also when I am ready to upgrade does anyone have recommendations on where I can sell mine with no online sales history? Not sure how easy of a time I'd have on a place like Ebay trying to sell something for around 1K with no other items sold.
You might try Audiogon. Sold a set there, cheaper than eBay.
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post #526 of 590 Old 04-08-2018, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Daryl L View Post
You're killing me here. It is a tough call between the two. I'm debating between the E/C8 and A8F and it really is no easy choice between either considering everything I've read so far. I got plenty of time to see some good quality reviews before I make my final decision but so far I'm leaning toward LG.

I conversed with Robert yesterday on HTF about the LG improvements compared to the previous 2016/17 models. I like his comments about the near black detail improvements. He also mentioned some up conversion and motion improvement.
Robert is correct. LG made some nice improvements for 2018.

I know this is not the calibration forum but this post might help a little.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post55999394
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post #527 of 590 Old 04-08-2018, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Robert is correct. LG made some nice improvements for 2018.

I know this is not the calibration forum but this post might help a little.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post55999394
Thanks. I'm following that thread too.

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post #528 of 590 Old 04-08-2018, 09:19 PM
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Is there any technical aspect (besides not being coded to) that would prevent the c8 from receiving [email protected] from an external source?
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post #529 of 590 Old 04-19-2018, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post
You're referring to these?
- My comments on RTings test methods
- A popular explanatory post of mine

TL;DR: Soon, soon. Methinks that by ~2019-2020 the Kuro motion resolution will be beat in the TestUFO Panning Map Readability Test.
Essentially but I was specifically referring to the conversation(s) we’ve had on twitter/in PM’s when I requested rt’ings add back a few plasma ‘s to their ranking & you explained to me the specifics behind the confusion with regard to plasma vs. OLED motion, and MPRT in general etc. I had intended on going to make a post on your forum where we were to continue dropping the knowledge you were so graciously expounding but then I had a death in the family and i had to abruptly shift gears
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post #530 of 590 Old 04-26-2018, 07:25 PM
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Costco LG C8

For those interested, Costco has the LG C8 55" and 65" on sale online for $2450 and $3450 respectively, including shipping. They also throw in a free $100 3-year Square Trade protection.

costco.com/LG-55"-Class-(54.6"-Diag.)-4K-Ultra-HD-OLED-LCD-TV.product.100409710.html (Item# 9550018, Model# OLED55C8)

costco.com/LG-65%22-Class-(64.5%22-Diag.)-4K-Ultra-HD-OLED-LCD-TV.product.100410422.html (Item# 9650018, Model #OLED65C8)

I included the item number in case you want to call your local store. Unfortunately, mine did not carry it in-store.
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post #531 of 590 Old 06-08-2018, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Scott Wilkinson's in-depth review is now up: https://www.avsforum.com/review-lg-55...d-hdr-oled-tv/

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post #532 of 590 Old 06-08-2018, 02:07 PM
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Scott, can you comment on the motion without any enhancement?

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post #533 of 590 Old 06-08-2018, 03:39 PM
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Some might recommend using an external 3D LUT box like the Lumagen Radiance or eeColor. However, they are expensive, and they have no facility to ignore the neutral axis. Even the eeColor’s higher LUT resolution (65x65x65 = 274,625 points) is not enough to overcome this problem by itself. (The Radiance uses a 17x17x17 LUT.)
This incorrect based on context of it appearing to be a global statement. This is correct when specifically referencing CalMAN. However, other LUT software have that capability. Also, a LUT box is no more than a container.... some larger than others. The software is what matters when it comes to creating accurate LUTs not the container.

Quote:
Some have reported a 20% drop in peak light output after completing the 1D and 3D LUT calibration. According to Neil, this is due to the fact that CalMan starts with the panel’s native response rather than the factory-calibrated response. He goes on to say there is always a significant drop in luminance when you change the white point from the panel’s native point to D65.
This is also incorrect. It doesn’t matter what Display is used with LUT creation via CalMAN. The output luminance is always less that pre LUT. This does not exist with other LUT software.

Quote:
No other TV vendor has yet provided such low-level access to the image-processing pipeline, and no other calibration software has been integrated so tightly.
Incorrect. Panasonic with their OLED was the first.


I’ve also PM’ed Scott regarding these items.
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post #534 of 590 Old 06-09-2018, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
This incorrect based on context of it appearing to be a global statement. This is correct when specifically referencing CalMAN. However, other LUT software have that capability. Also, a LUT box is no more than a container.... some larger than others. The software is what matters when it comes to creating accurate LUTs not the container.
I believe I misspoke a bit here. Of course, all LUT boxes are simply containers to hold the data fed into them by the LUT software. My question is, what LUT software has the capability to bypass or ignore the neutral axis in a 3D LUT? I know that CalMan does not, but perhaps other programs do and I'm simply not aware of them.

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This is also incorrect. It doesn’t matter what Display is used with LUT creation via CalMAN. The output luminance is always less that pre LUT. This does not exist with other LUT software.
According to Neil at LG, CalMan is the only LUT program that zeros out everything in the TV before starting its work, while other LUT programs start with factory-preset settings. As a result, CalMan's initial luminance reading will always be higher than the final calibrated value, whereas other programs might not see a drop in luminance after calibration because the factory settings already dropped it from the raw, native value before the calibration began.

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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Incorrect. Panasonic with their OLED was the first.
This is arguable. For example, it is true that the Panasonic OLED was the first to allow users to load their own 3D LUT, but the LG OLED grants CalMan access to almost every functional low-level block in the video pipeline, not just one. I don't know if the Panasonic provides as much access to the low-level blocks in the video pipeline; I'd be surprised if it does. Also, how do you determine that one TV/software package is "more tightly integrated" than another package? Be all that as it may, this point is not critical to the review, so I deleted it.
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post #535 of 590 Old 06-09-2018, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
I believe I misspoke a bit here. Of course, all LUT boxes are simply containers to hold the data fed into them by the LUT software. My question is, what LUT software has the capability to bypass or ignore the neutral axis in a 3D LUT? I know that CalMan does not, but perhaps other programs do and I'm simply not aware of them.
Lightspace is one.



Quote:
According to Neil at LG, CalMan is the only LUT program that zeros out everything in the TV before starting its work, while other LUT programs start with factory-preset settings. As a result, CalMan's initial luminance reading will always be higher than the final calibrated value, whereas other programs might not see a drop in luminance after calibration because the factory settings already dropped it from the raw, native value before the calibration began.
Then I do not think Neil knows nor has gone through the CalMAN workflow since the end user is supposed to set the light output via the OLED light setting pre LUT creation. Please take a look at the CalMan workflow. It’s right there



Quote:
This is arguable. For example, it is true that the Panasonic OLED was the first to allow users to load their own 3D LUT, but the LG OLED grants CalMan access to almost every functional low-level block in the video pipeline, not just one. I don't know if the Panasonic provides as much access to the low-level blocks in the video pipeline; I'd be surprised if it does. Also, how do you determine that one TV/software package is "more tightly integrated" than another package? Be all that as it may, this point is not critical to the review, so I deleted it.
Low level blocks??? I tink you were provided incorrect info. CalMAN has access to the 1D and 3D LUT container in the panel, nothing more. If they had additional access, they could potential have the capability to do something about low luminance noise
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post #536 of 590 Old 06-09-2018, 03:33 PM
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Thanks for the review and youre effort to check the problems I and other users reported. Unfortunately the outcome isn't that what I had expected.

Just for transparency and fairness for the users and potential customers of this TV would it be possible to check the 3D LUT File from you're 5000 points measurements? I would really appreciate that.

Furthermore I would like to see the measurements of the Luminace sweeps.

I think that would be clearly identify a lot of the described problems which you obviously could not see in content @Scott Wilkinson

Like D-Nice already mentioned the peak drop has nothing to do which display is used. In the LG Workflow itself is a layout page after the 3D LUT creation to correct the peak light output b we cause it's known that the Luminace drops.

With other softwares this is will not happen.

And just for comparison in term of time and quality I'd like to attach my latest results of my 3D LUT which was created with Lightspace. I used ~2500 points and set only 2p high @ 100 IRE it took 1h with my C6 HDR.











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post #537 of 590 Old 06-09-2018, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Lightspace is one.
Good to know!

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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Then I do not think Neil knows nor has gone through the CalMAN workflow since the end user is supposed to set the light output via the OLED light setting pre LUT creation. Please take a look at the CalMan workflow. It’s right there
You are a superb calibrator, no doubt about it. I greatly respect and admire your skill. However, you did not work on developing this product. Neil was instrumental in its development, so I must go with his explanation. I'm sure he has gone through the workflow more times than he can count!

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Low level blocks??? I tink you were provided incorrect info. CalMAN has access to the 1D and 3D LUT container in the panel, nothing more. If they had additional access, they could potential have the capability to do something about low luminance noise
Again, I have to go with Neil on this one. He says in no uncertain terms that CalMan has direct, hardware-level access to many more functional blocks in the video pipeline than just 1D and 3D LUT, and I have no reason to disbelieve him.
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post #538 of 590 Old 06-09-2018, 10:23 PM
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Although I've been an AVS Forum member for many years, I very rarely comment on threads, mostly because I work for a manufacturer, and it's very easy to end up being considered the customer support for forum users.

The reality is that I don't work for marketing or PR; I'm an engineer, and I was the architect and project manager of the autocal feature on our TVs. Scott reached out to me for some additional information for his article, and I was happy to provide it.

I'm commenting now because @D-Nice suggested I wasn't aware of the CalMAN workflow, and also because Scott is having to field questions about the calibration section of his article, and that's the part I provided information for.

I personally appreciate feedback on the auto calibration feature, because it helps me to make our products better. As Scott reported, for example, we discovered an issue with flickering when calibrating Dolby Vision early on, thanks to user feedback, and we were able to fix this with a firmware update. The hardware level autocal feature has been a lot of work, but it's been a labour of love. There's more to do for sure, but I'm proud of what's been achieved so far.

With that being said, to address two comments that were made:

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Then I do not think Neil knows nor has gone through the CalMAN workflow since the end user is supposed to set the light output via the OLED light setting pre LUT creation. Please take a look at the CalMan workflow. It’s right there
The CalMAN workflow includes, as it’s first active page, a button to do a ‘Full DDC Reset’. This is before the first luminance measurement, and its purpose is to ‘zero out’ or more accurately, to put the TV into a full ‘bypass’ condition by doing the following:

  • Load bypass 1D LUTs for Red, Green and Blue
  • Load a bypass 3D LUT
  • Set the 3x3 matrix to unity
  • Ensure that the De-Gamma & Re-Gamma LUTs either side of the 3x3 matrix are disabled
  • Set Brightness to 50 (bypass)
  • Set Contrast to 85 (SDR with super white preserved) or 100 (HDR which has no super white)
  • Set Colour Saturation to 50

After the Full DDC Reset, the white point will be ‘panel native’, and around 10,000 K. The next page asks the user to set a luminance using the OLED light control. I’d advise users to set this around 15% higher than the desired end luminance, because luminance will certainly drop when moving the white point to D65.

The next page is the 1D LUT calibration, which results in a luminance drop because the white point is moved in this process.

Following the 1D LUT calibration, the next page asks the user to check the peak luminance again, and adjust as needed to meet the desired target white point. This page is here precisely because the luminance is expected to have dropped.

Following this, comes the 3D LUT page, and after that, the validation pages. Obviously, there shouldn't be any luminance drop from the 3D LUT.

In conclusion, as was said previously, the 1D LUT shifts the white point from panel native to D65. A luminance drop is known and expected behavior, it's also unavoidable regardless of software if you start from panel native. The luminance drop is handled in CalMAN by having two pages in the workflow where luminance is adjusted. It’s not a secret, we're very open about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Low level blocks??? I tink you were provided incorrect info. CalMAN has access to the 1D and 3D LUT container in the panel, nothing more.
The API for calibration is not public, so there is no way anyone outside of Portrait and LG would know what low level blocks were able to be controlled. Looking at what CalMAN is doing at a high level it might seem that only the 1D and 3D LUTs are being accessed, but that's not the case, and some of this is obvious if you dig a little deeper.

As I mentioned above, the following functions are being used in the current public build of CalMAN:

  • 1D LUTs for Red, Green and Blue
  • 3D LUT
  • 3x3 Matrix
  • De-Gamma & Re-Gamma LUTs either side of the 3x3 Matrix
  • Brightness
  • Contrast
  • Colour Saturation
  • OLED Light

In addition to these, there are several other functional blocks in the video pipeline that the API covers, and CalMAN has access to. These aren’t required for a typical calibration, but the access is there.

It's worth noting that all of the functions that are controlled, are hardware features of the Alpha 9 (and Alpha 7) SoCs, with the exception of OLED Light, which is an OLED panel gain control and is therefore separate from the video path.

In summary, it certainly isn’t only 1D and 3D!
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post #539 of 590 Old 06-09-2018, 11:12 PM
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@nezil I really appreciate your post! You brought the technical level of this forum to a higher peak. Thank you for that and I’d kindly encourage you to keep doing it.

Given your level of knowledge of LG TV and Autocal function, I can only take your statements to valid. Exactly like Scott did before me, correctly. But a question arises, how is it possible then that the drop in peak luminance also occurs in the calibration of the eecolor lut box, with every panel, not only LG TV? As you know, in this case we proceed exclusively to balance the high RGB levels in the 2 pt white balance, completely skipping the 1D Lut calibration and proceeding directly to the 3D Lut calibration. The procedure is the same for every software, having all directly or indirectly access to the machine, but the only software that ends in decreasing the peak luminance is Calman. As I CM livense owner I’d really appreciate your technical answer about that behavior and I’m looking forward to it. Thank you.

Cheers,
Miki
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TVs: Pioneer PDP-LX5090H, LG OLED55C8PLA | SintoAmp: Pioneer VSX-921 | BD Player: Panasonic DMP-BDT260EG | External LUT box: Entertainment Experience eeColor | Softwares: Light Illusion Lightspace HTP, Portrait Displays CalMAN Home Enthusiast 2018 R3, HCFR, DisplayCAL | Probes: x-rite i1 Pro 2 - i1 Display Pro OEM B-02, basICColor DISCUS | Test Pattern Generator: DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #540 of 590 Old 06-09-2018, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Mammoth View Post
Last year people were getting 65” C7s for $2400 free shipping from Beach Camera and other retailers before July, should be even cheaper this year.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/322-ol...-series-3.html
At that price (or less), the 65” LG C8 is a no-brainer.

In case you're wondering, my setup: Sony 65x930E, Denon x3200W, 2 Martin Logan 35XT, 1 ML Motion 8 Center Channel, and 1 ML Dynamo 700W Sub.
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