LG 55" C8 4K HDR OLED TV First Impressions and Review - Page 19 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #541 of 590 Old 06-10-2018, 12:01 AM
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@nezil thanks alot to bring in the technical view. But for me who is aware of the use of the service menus. It sounds like setting the LG factory white point to 0 and then adjust it to correct one. Nothing else you did with user menu or the service menu. Could you please explain more detailed if possible and state the difference without reveal any company secrets how the way Calman did this or better on what kind of hardware level it is done. For it sounds on first read just a technical description of setting white point with place in hardware level. Thanks for your time and technical view.

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post #542 of 590 Old 06-10-2018, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
I believe I misspoke a bit here. Of course, all LUT boxes are simply containers to hold the data fed into them by the LUT software. My question is, what LUT software has the capability to bypass or ignore the neutral axis in a 3D LUT? I know that CalMan does not, but perhaps other programs do and I'm simply not aware of them.
As @D-Nice has said, Lightspace (I believe from HTP license upwards) has "LUT math" functionality. This allows you to generate a standard 3DLUT, save out just the 1D greyscale portion, and subtract the 1D from the 3D to leave a LUT which ignores the neutral axis. I'm not sure this would address banding anywhere outside of the grey axis, and the examples I have of LUT induced banding tend to be outside of the grey axis.

Your experience of banding during your review may have been relatively benign because you are using a high-end colorimeter which is way outside of affordability for most enthusiasts looking to calibrate one or two of these TVs. From looking at a few LUTs generated in Calman they appear quite "noisy" - it looks like it relies heavily on the precise co-ordinates of individual measures in the generation of their LUTs, so improving the quality of the profile using a high-end meter would be one way to reduce their noise making it into the output LUT. Another way would be for the LUT engine to employ more smarts in ignoring or smoothing out measurement kinks, or to have options for "relaxing" the shape of the LUT later.

It would have perhaps been interesting to use an entry level unit such as the C6 or i1d3 which would perhaps be more representative of the typical Calman user's toolchest. As it is your results are probably going to be a poor match for what most will see.

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Originally Posted by nezil View Post
Although I've been an AVS Forum member for many years, I very rarely comment on threads, mostly because I work for a manufacturer, and it's very easy to end up being considered the customer support for forum users.

The reality is that I don't work for marketing or PR; I'm an engineer, and I was the architect and project manager of the autocal feature on our TVs. Scott reached out to me for some additional information for his article, and I was happy to provide it.
Hi Neil, I hope you can take the following feedback in the spirit in which it is meant, which is constructive insight to my own purchasing rationale.

For me personally the decision to only support Calman is stopping me buying the new family of LG units. I'm heavily invested in 3DLUT, with a Radiance Pro for my main theatre, small 1080p 3DLUT box for the TV in the lounge, and Lightspace HTP + various meters (BasICColor Discus, i1pro2, i1d3). I'd dearly love to have a 4K 3DLUT for the set in the lounge, which would make me upgrade it. But I'm not going to buy a Radiance Pro for that TV which is mostly occasional non-critical viewing. And I'm not really up for spending hundreds of dollars on software which I see as being unnecessary to me (and by the looks of it, not as performant as what I already use).

At the moment I'm going to be waiting to see what the next Panasonic releases are doing with respect to this feature as they do allow import of 3DLUT created via Lightspace.

While I accept there may be commercial reasons in place for you being tied to Calman, I can't think of any good technical reasons. 3DLUT has a lot of smarts going into generating the LUT, but isn't technically a complex thing at the upload stage. The extent of the API support added for LUT upload and control manipulation appears to just be a few extra commands added to the standard LG webOS websockets API, which already has several open-source implementations out there on the interweb.

Ultimately I imagine LG are in the business of selling TVs and not calibration software - opening up your API to allow users of other commercial packages such as Lightspace and Chromapure, as well as the excellent free ArgyllCMS/DisplayCAL, can only help you sell more product and improve the image of your company and products.

On a slightly related feature point - seeing as you have a powerful SOC in the box, it does seem ludicrous to have to use an external pattern generator (at very significant cost if DV generator capability is required) when you could generate and display the patterns internally. I guess you may have done this to minimise your own development efforts, but it would be really great not to have to rely on an extra external box to set up the 3DLUT.

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post #543 of 590 Old 06-10-2018, 05:49 AM
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Finally we are able to get more definitive technical information on Autocal. To put things in perspective, after reading everything, my take a way is, as Neil said, Autocal was not an easy implementation and we are seeing the first iteration of the product. More improvements are likely to come. I'm not an "expert" in 3DLUTs but i feel i'm a very experienced calibrator, especially with the LGs, and Neil's explanation, from a high level, sounds totally acceptable to me.

After developing "products" for 30+ years for a major corporation, consumers will seldom understand the business details for any initiative unless they were on the development and or business team since most of these details are proprietary. We have to accept the fact and respect that we are never going to know these details.


But at the end of the day, once we get the next Calman Beta for Autocal, and if it corrects the oversaturation and other "issues" reported, and hopefully a Backup process so it can be used for customers, from my experience doing Autocals on my loaner LG C8, I have to agree with Dave and Scott, I feel the calibration result and PQ is really good. It's not "reference" which is what it looks like some folks here are trying to reach but for a consumer display, the results are very good and that's a great accomplishment for the first gen of this product.


I feel Portrait and LG have recieved the "necessary" technical feedback from all the experts here on AVS and hopefully over time as the product evolves, we may see improvements and get closer to reference, we will have to wait and see.

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post #544 of 590 Old 06-10-2018, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by nezil View Post
The CalMAN workflow includes, as it’s first active page, a button to do a ‘Full DDC Reset’. This is before the first luminance measurement, and its purpose is to ‘zero out’ or more accurately, to put the TV into a full ‘bypass’ condition by doing the following:

  • Load bypass 1D LUTs for Red, Green and Blue
  • Load a bypass 3D LUT
  • Set the 3x3 matrix to unity
  • Ensure that the De-Gamma & Re-Gamma LUTs either side of the 3x3 matrix are disabled
  • Set Brightness to 50 (bypass)
  • Set Contrast to 85 (SDR with super white preserved) or 100 (HDR which has no super white)
  • Set Colour Saturation to 50

After the Full DDC Reset, the white point will be ‘panel native’, and around 10,000 K. The next page asks the user to set a luminance using the OLED light control. I’d advise users to set this around 15% higher than the desired end luminance, because luminance will certainly drop when moving the white point to D65.

The next page is the 1D LUT calibration, which results in a luminance drop because the white point is moved in this process.

Following the 1D LUT calibration, the next page asks the user to check the peak luminance again, and adjust as needed to meet the desired target white point. This page is here precisely because the luminance is expected to have dropped.

Following this, comes the 3D LUT page, and after that, the validation pages. Obviously, there shouldn't be any luminance drop from the 3D LUT.

In conclusion, as was said previously, the 1D LUT shifts the white point from panel native to D65. A luminance drop is known and expected behavior, it's also unavoidable regardless of software if you start from panel native. The luminance drop is handled in CalMAN by having two pages in the workflow where luminance is adjusted. It’s not a secret, we're very open about it.
Hello Neil and welcome to this thread.

You’re speaking of Peak Luma drop. When the white point is different than the target white point, there will be a peak luma drop. That happens will all programs and even during a manual calibration of any display and is not what I’m talking about since this drop would be far less than 20% of what an end user sets via the OLED light. CalMAN is excessive in the white reduction regardless of display. This has nothing to do with LG as this happens with any and every display used in connection with the 3DLUT creation (another simple legacy bug that could be easily corrected). End users have to overshoot their target white output by 20-30% to compensation for it. If you want to put that error on LG, by all means that is your discretion. However, you may want to add a not during that workflow to overshoot the target white.


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The API for calibration is not public, so there is no way anyone outside of Portrait and LG would know what low level blocks were able to be controlled. Looking at what CalMAN is doing at a high level it might seem that only the 1D and 3D LUTs are being accessed, but that's not the case, and some of this is obvious if you dig a little deeper.
The promotion, because that is really what it is , of access to the low-level blocks is pretty much irrelevant.

When using a 3D LUT there is no need for a 3x3 matrix at all.... or the 1D LUT on either side. Everything a 3x3 matrix can do, the 3D LUT can do better. You can “set to default” all the items you need to for 3D LUT calibration manually.... which is what’s done in the Panasonic OLED. There is nothing special about any of it. (i.e. Not resetting the RGB 1D LUTs is totally irrelevant). Setting the 3D LUT to bypass you can do on the Panasonic, as this is all that really is needed (Just load a bypass/blank 3D LUT…).

I can count on one hand exactly who on this forum knows exactly what I do outside of consumer home calibrations. I know exactly what is going on behind the scenes as it is not really “secret” I will be more than happy to discuss this with you offline since I know it would be classified as confidential information. You can get my contact info from Tyler if you would like to discuss more.

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In addition to these, there are several other functional blocks in the video pipeline that the API covers, and CalMAN has access to. These aren’t required for a typical calibration, but the access is there.
Please refer to my comment above for this one.

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In summary, it certainly isn’t only 1D and 3D!
On paper it is not. In the real world today via the exclusive workflow, it is.
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post #545 of 590 Old 06-10-2018, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Finally we are able to get more definitive technical information on Autocal. To put things in perspective, after reading everything, my take a way is, as Neil said, Autocal was not an easy implementation and we are seeing the first iteration of the product. More improvements are likely to come. I'm not an "expert" in 3DLUTs but i feel i'm a very experienced calibrator, especially with the LGs, and Neil's explanation, from a high level, sounds totally acceptable to me.
After developing "products" for 30+ years for a major corporation, consumers will seldom understand the business details for any initiative unless they were on the development and or business team since most of these details are proprietary. We have to accept the fact and respect that we are never going to know these details.[/quote]Please don’t tell me you are falling for the Kool-aid and/or politics and BS that you and I both know exist in the corporate world? AutoCal for LG displays is not a new full blow software package. It is an add on to the CalMAN 3DLUT/DDC AutoCal function that has existed for years. It’s like someone claiming and promoting to have created an entirely new Data Store when the only thing they really did was create a new table/view.


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But at the end of the day, once we get the next Calman Beta for Autocal, and if it corrects the oversaturation and other "issues" reported, and hopefully a Backup process so it can be used for customers, from my experience doing Autocals on my loaner LG C8, I have to agree with Dave and Scott, I feel the calibration result and PQ is really good. It's not "reference" which is what it looks like some folks here are trying to reach but for a consumer display, the results are very good and that's a great accomplishment for the first gen of this product.
If correct max color points is all you care for, then you are in for a revelation the next time I come up to NY and show you with real content what is far more important and will probably still will be broken with this AutoCAL..... i.e. banding, posterization, incorrect colors, etc.
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post #546 of 590 Old 06-10-2018, 09:04 AM
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@nezil did you read this thread
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post56268190

and in this post the other linked post in the precise order?
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post #547 of 590 Old 06-10-2018, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I'm not an "expert" in 3DLUTs but i feel i'm a very experienced calibrator, especially with the LGs.
If you're not an expert why you trying to talk about it?

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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
It's not "reference" which is what it looks like some folks here are trying to reach


As a very experienced calibrator especially with LGs don't you think you should try the same for yourself and the customers from VE? I don't feel ashamed to get the best possible PQ. I payed a lot of money for the TV and what's even more important I have a lot of pession for calibration and for testing.

I'm really looking forward to the beta release and everyone here can be sure that I'm going to dive in very deep to prove what they fixed and what not.
@Scott Wilkinson is ignoring my questions and I don't think we will ever see a luminance sweep or even the 3D LUT for examination which can easily show that the problems are clearly visible.
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post #548 of 590 Old 06-10-2018, 09:22 AM
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@D-Nice

All i'm pointing out is whatever the business model they decided to pursue, that's their business and although you and I and others would prefer open source, I don't believe we are going to see that anytime soon so I don't believe it's worth our energy to discuss it further. We stated it, everyone understands, etc.. I rather spend our energies on the technical where I believe you, myself and other's can make a difference. Just my personal feeling.

As far as the calibration, I should have clarified, as you are aware, i'm only evaluating the simple 1D and 3x3 matrix calibration. As we discussed, the times I tried the large LUT, I agree, there were lots of artifacts, etc, as you correctly have pointed out. Even with the simple Autocal, it's not perfect but I believe and hope that with some bug fixes, tweaking and a backup process, that it should do a reasonable job, we will have to wait and see. As far at the large 3DLUTs, as we have discussed, I agree, that's something that we are going to have to wait and see if anything changes given all the history.

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post #549 of 590 Old 06-10-2018, 09:36 AM
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If you're not an expert why you trying to talk about it?





As a very experienced calibrator especially with LGs don't you think you should try the same for yourself and the customers from VE? I don't feel ashamed to get the best possible PQ. I payed a lot of money for the TV and what's even more important I have a lot of pession for calibration and for testing.

I'm really looking forward to the beta release and everyone here can be sure that I'm going to dive in very deep to prove what they fixed and what not.
@Scott Wilkinson is ignoring my questions and I don't think we will ever see a luminance sweep or even the 3D LUT for examination which can easily show that the problems are clearly visible.
As we have discussed in the past, I don't know of any professional calibrator using the LG Autocal for calibration. As with other experienced folks here, we have been evaluating it and posting our findings. Of course we all want to get the best possible PQ but this is essentially the first "version" of this product and although I would have liked to see it work perfectly the first time, seldom does this ever happen. I'm also eagerly waiting for the next beta to see how it works and hope that at some point Autocal does a reasonable job meaning at least better that I can do manually given the limitations of the existing user controls.

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post #550 of 590 Old 06-10-2018, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
All i'm pointing out is whatever the business model they decided to pursue, that's their business and although you and I and others would prefer open source, I don't believe we are going to see that anytime soon so I don't believe it's worth our energy to discuss it further. We stated it, everyone understands, etc.. I rather spend our energies on the technical. Just my personal feeling.
I personally do not care who LG decides to create collaborative agreements with either. Everything I’m speaking of is actually the technical aspects of 3DLUTs that have existed for years but is now just entering the mainstream consumer market place.... and is now an additional add on to CalMAN to do LUTs internally on LG displays.

Since many in this particular section of AVS are unfamiliar with the technical aspects of 3DLUTs... or the basics of 3DLUTs for that matter... you can consider me the consumer advocate that will not allow the less knowledgeable to be blindly coerced into accepting false and/or misleading information. I shoot straight with zero sugar/fluff and do not need to brown nose companies for anything. This has been my MO from day 1 on this forum. Many cannot accept my approach and ignorantly assume its an attack when it is actually useful knowledge to help them improve whatever the subject matter is..... which in this particular instance is CalMAN.... a product I use daily.

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As far as the calibration, I should have clarified, as you are aware, i'm only evaluating the simple 1D and 3x3 matrix calibration. As we discussed, the one time I tried the large LUT, I agree, there were lots of artifacts, etc, as you correctly have pointed out. Even with the simple Autocal, it's not perfect but I believe and hope that with some bug fixes and tweaking, that it should do a reasonable job. As far at the large 3DLUTs, as we have discussed, that's something that we are going to have to wait and see if anything changes given all the history.
As I have pointed out many times, the AutoCAL section of CalMAN needs a complete overhaul to resolve the “meat and potatoes” of real Video Fidelity of its 3DLUT output. I don’t say that ignorantly either. This conclusion is after throrough examination of its function.
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post #551 of 590 Old 06-10-2018, 11:59 AM
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The API for calibration is not public, so there is no way anyone outside of Portrait and LG would know what low level blocks were able to be controlled.
As others have already explained, tying your products to Calman is a bad business decision if you care about selling more TVs. Even if we ignore all the bugs and clunkiness that have plagued that software for years, the majority of your customers are not going to spend hundreds of dollars on it when there are free open-source calibration packages that work just as well or better. As a fellow engineer, I know these type of decisions are often made above our level but please try to convince your superiors that this is a bad policy. By opening the API for other calibration packages to use (ChromaPure, Color HCFR, DisplayCAL, LightSpace, etc.) you will benefit from a larger pool of competing developers coming up with unique solutions that maximize the performance of your TVs.
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post #552 of 590 Old 06-10-2018, 02:18 PM
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On a slightly related feature point - seeing as you have a powerful SOC in the box, it does seem ludicrous to have to use an external pattern generator (at very significant cost if DV generator capability is required) when you could generate and display the patterns internally. I guess you may have done this to minimise your own development efforts, but it would be really great not to have to rely on an extra external box to set up the 3DLUT.
^^ this. Please
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post #553 of 590 Old 06-10-2018, 02:37 PM
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Thanks for the review and youre effort to check the problems I and other users reported. Unfortunately the outcome isn't that what I had expected.

Just for transparency and fairness for the users and potential customers of this TV would it be possible to check the 3D LUT File from you're 5000 points measurements? I would really appreciate that.

Furthermore I would like to see the measurements of the Luminace sweeps.

I think that would be clearly identify a lot of the described problems which you obviously could not see in content @Scott Wilkinson

Like D-Nice already mentioned the peak drop has nothing to do which display is used. In the LG Workflow itself is a layout page after the 3D LUT creation to correct the peak light output b we cause it's known that the Luminace drops.

With other softwares this is will not happen.

And just for comparison in term of time and quality I'd like to attach my latest results of my 3D LUT which was created with Lightspace. I used ~2500 points and set only 2p high @ 100 IRE it took 1h with my C6 HDR.
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@Scott Wilkinson is ignoring my questions and I don't think we will ever see a luminance sweep or even the 3D LUT for examination which can easily show that the problems are clearly visible.
I'm not ignoring your questions; it's the weekend, and I try to work as little as possible on the weekend. This is a hobby for all of us, but it's also work for me, and I have to step away from it sometimes. Please be patient if I don't respond immediately, rather than assume I'm ignoring you.

I don't normally share internal data such as you're requesting. Besides, for me, the bottom line is how the image looks with real-world content and, to a lesser extent, test patterns and images. If real-world content and test patterns look good, then they look good, regardless of the data. Regarding the 3D LUT and luminance-sweep values, you say, "I think that would be clearly identify a lot of the described problems which you obviously could not see in content." Yes, it might, but that doesn't matter if I could not see the problems in content.

Also, you say those data would "easily show that the problems are clearly visible." I disagree. Again, the data might be clearly imperfect, but if the problems are not clearly visible in test patterns and real-world content, then they are not clearly visible, despite what the data might show.

BTW, David used 10,000 points, not 5000 as I said in the review; my mistake. The review is now corrected.

Your calibration results with the C6 look great! I assume the picture looks superb with real-world content, yes?

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Wow 10k Points are there any info what machine he is running calman on. Because Calman crashed several times with big points with me and I got an i5-m with 16gb ram. But usually take LS for lut. But interesting to hear because in the review thee was also mentioned that CM crashed independently of cube size.
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post #555 of 590 Old 06-11-2018, 09:57 AM
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Your calibration results with the C6 look great! I assume the picture looks superb with real-world content, yes?

I couldn't be happier with my C8 and the results content looks awesome.

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post #556 of 590 Old 06-11-2018, 10:53 AM
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I couldn't be happier with my C8 and the results content looks awesome.
Nothing wrong with that

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You're killing me here. It is a tough call between the two. I'm debating between the E/C8 and A8F and it really is no easy choice between either considering everything I've read so far. I got plenty of time to see some good quality reviews before I make my final decision but so far I'm leaning toward LG.
I do not remember seeing one Sony OLED owner disappointing with there choice of Sony OLED over LG......
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post #557 of 590 Old 06-11-2018, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Garknot View Post
Wow 10k Points are there any info what machine he is running calman on. Because Calman crashed several times with big points with me and I got an i5-m with 16gb ram. But usually take LS for lut. But interesting to hear because in the review thee was also mentioned that CM crashed independently of cube size.
David Abrams uses a 2015 MacBook Pro with i7 and 16 GB RAM. He runs Windows 10 (64-bit, latest build) in Boot Camp. He experienced no crashes during this calibration. As mentioned in the review, he reports that CalMan does crash now and then when running in Virtual Machine, and that behavior seems independent of the number of points used in the 3D LUT calibration.
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post #558 of 590 Old 06-11-2018, 11:57 AM
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I'm running latest Windows 10 in Parallel Desktop and can run up to 4000 points without any problems more are not possible without a crash. I tried also a normal windows high end notebook but also there are the maximum possible 4000 points
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post #559 of 590 Old 06-11-2018, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
David Abrams uses a 2015 MacBook Pro with i7 and 16 GB RAM. He runs Windows 10 (64-bit, latest build) in Boot Camp. He experienced no crashes during this calibration. As mentioned in the review, he reports that CalMan does crash now and then when running in Virtual Machine, and that behavior seems independent of the number of points used in the 3D LUT calibration.
So then still fishing in the dark what the crashes my causes. Because I use the same gear but different machine where Calman is running.
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Please also check Multi-Channel PCM audio support

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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
...
Here's the plan for this LG C8 OLED: I'm going to spend a few days with it, putting hours on the panle and gaining some first impressions, which I'll share by bloggin about the experience. I also have a 2017 G7 so I'll be able to speak to the difference the A9 processor makes. Then, I will ship the TV to Scott Wilkinson, who will perform the in-depth review.

My hands-on experience will involve performing a basic calibration, taking latency readings, getting a feel for AI ThinQ, and trying out a variety of content that includes gaming (2K, 4K, HDR), TV, movies, and use of the TV as a giant PC monitor.
...

Can you also have a look if it finally supports Multi-Channel PCM sound?
As the LG OLED 55E7N only supports PCM 2.0 audio data, which renders uncompressed multi-channel audio useless for external devices, e.g. Playstation 4 (or Audio-DVDs via normal HDMI-Switch workaround).

Here is the audio-related data extract from the CEA-861-F V3 block of the EDID data of my OLED 55E7N with FW 04.70.85:
Code:
2F = 001 (1 = Audio) / 01111 (15 bytes payload)
09 57 07  (0-0001-001 = LPCM 2 Channels; 01010111 = 192+96+48+44+32 kHz; 00000111 = 16+20+24 bit)
15 07 50  (0-0010-101 = AC-3 6 Channels; 00000111 = 48+44+32 kHz; 80 * 8 = 640 kbit/s)
57 07 01  (0-1010-111 = DD+/E-AC-3 8 Channels; 00000111 = 48+44+32 kHz; Audio Format Code 1)
3D 06 C0  (0-0111-101 = DTS 6 Channels; 00000110 = 48+44 kHz; 192 * 8 = 1536 kbit/s)
67 04 03  (0-1100-111 = MLP/Dolby TrueHD 8 Channels; 00000100 = 48 kHz; Audio Format Code 3)
Thanks in advance
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post #561 of 590 Old 06-11-2018, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maddes View Post
Can you also have a look if it finally supports Multi-Channel PCM sound?
As the LG OLED 55E7N only supports PCM 2.0 audio data, which renders uncompressed multi-channel audio useless for external devices, e.g. Playstation 4 (or Audio-DVDs via normal HDMI-Switch workaround).
I'm intrigued as to why this is a problem either way? Surely it only has two speakers, and whatever you connect to it will just downmix for you if it doesn't see more than 2 channel capability?
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post #562 of 590 Old 06-11-2018, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maddes View Post
Can you also have a look if it finally supports Multi-Channel PCM sound?
As the LG OLED 55E7N only supports PCM 2.0 audio data, which renders uncompressed multi-channel audio useless for external devices, e.g. Playstation 4 (or Audio-DVDs via normal HDMI-Switch workaround).

Here is the audio-related data extract from the CEA-861-F V3 block of the EDID data of my OLED 55E7N with FW 04.70.85:
Code:
2F = 001 (1 = Audio) / 01111 (15 bytes payload)
09 57 07  (0-0001-001 = LPCM 2 Channels; 01010111 = 192+96+48+44+32 kHz; 00000111 = 16+20+24 bit)
15 07 50  (0-0010-101 = AC-3 6 Channels; 00000111 = 48+44+32 kHz; 80 * 8 = 640 kbit/s)
57 07 01  (0-1010-111 = DD+/E-AC-3 8 Channels; 00000111 = 48+44+32 kHz; Audio Format Code 1)
3D 06 C0  (0-0111-101 = DTS 6 Channels; 00000110 = 48+44 kHz; 192 * 8 = 1536 kbit/s)
67 04 03  (0-1100-111 = MLP/Dolby TrueHD 8 Channels; 00000100 = 48 kHz; Audio Format Code 3)
Thanks in advance
Maddes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
Nothing wrong with that

I do not remember seeing one Sony OLED owner disappointing with there choice of Sony OLED over LG......
I have but usually over aesthetic things.
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post #564 of 590 Old 06-12-2018, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
Nothing wrong with that

I do not remember seeing one Sony OLED owner disappointing with there choice of Sony OLED over LG......
You’re like an archaeologist. You dug that statement from way back!

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Here is my 65 inch c8 on a youtube white screen. How bad would you guys say the tint is? I ordered from Ebay, got the tv for 2500 brand new, but it's not a situation where I could return it.
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The little thing on the bottom left is the pointer from the lg remote btw.
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post #567 of 590 Old 06-22-2018, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maddes View Post
Can you also have a look if it finally supports Multi-Channel PCM sound?
As the LG OLED 55E7N only supports PCM 2.0 audio data, which renders uncompressed multi-channel audio useless for external devices, e.g. Playstation 4 (or Audio-DVDs via normal HDMI-Switch workaround).

Here is the audio-related data extract from the CEA-861-F V3 block of the EDID data of my OLED 55E7N with FW 04.70.85:
Code:
2F = 001 (1 = Audio) / 01111 (15 bytes payload)
09 57 07  (0-0001-001 = LPCM 2 Channels; 01010111 = 192+96+48+44+32 kHz; 00000111 = 16+20+24 bit)
15 07 50  (0-0010-101 = AC-3 6 Channels; 00000111 = 48+44+32 kHz; 80 * 8 = 640 kbit/s)
57 07 01  (0-1010-111 = DD+/E-AC-3 8 Channels; 00000111 = 48+44+32 kHz; Audio Format Code 1)
3D 06 C0  (0-0111-101 = DTS 6 Channels; 00000110 = 48+44 kHz; 192 * 8 = 1536 kbit/s)
67 04 03  (0-1100-111 = MLP/Dolby TrueHD 8 Channels; 00000100 = 48 kHz; Audio Format Code 3)
Thanks in advance
Maddes
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I'm intrigued as to why this is a problem either way? Surely it only has two speakers, and whatever you connect to it will just downmix for you if it doesn't see more than 2 channel capability?

The LG TV only downmixes audio from external devices when it is DTS, Dolby Digital, etc. but no when it is uncompressed PCM audio.
I do know because when I use custom EDID data on my HDMI switch for multi-channel PCM, then the LG TV doesn't downmix the multi-channel PCM audio and only plays the left and right channel as is.

My wish is that the LG TV supports and downmixes multi-channel PCM audio from external devices, and therefore states 7.1 PCM audio support in its EDID data.
This way I would get 7.1 sound on my AVR via the HDMI switch for movie or game sessions without any hassles like uploading custom EDID data to my HDMI switch. Only muting the TV would be necessary.
Additionally for casual watching like TV, simple games, etc. I could use the TV speakers without having to change my setup back again (EDID data).

I just prefer uncompressed sound.
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post #568 of 590 Old 06-23-2018, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maddes View Post
The LG TV only downmixes audio from external devices when it is DTS, Dolby Digital, etc. but no when it is uncompressed PCM audio.
I do know because when I use custom EDID data on my HDMI switch for multi-channel PCM, then the LG TV doesn't downmix the multi-channel PCM audio and only plays the left and right channel as is.

My wish is that the LG TV supports and downmixes multi-channel PCM audio from external devices, and therefore states 7.1 PCM audio support in its EDID data.
This way I would get 7.1 sound on my AVR via the HDMI switch for movie or game sessions without any hassles like uploading custom EDID data to my HDMI switch. Only muting the TV would be necessary.
Additionally for casual watching like TV, simple games, etc. I could use the TV speakers without having to change my setup back again (EDID data).

I just prefer uncompressed sound.

Well it does support TrueHD so it does have one option. Multi channel PCM isn't exactly a common format to see so not supporting it makes perfect sense. Certainly not what you are going to see from a bluray player, DVD, AppleTV, etc.
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post #569 of 590 Old 06-23-2018, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lsorensen View Post
Well it does support TrueHD so it does have one option. Multi channel PCM isn't exactly a common format to see so not supporting it makes perfect sense. Certainly not what you are going to see from a bluray player, DVD, AppleTV, etc.

I disagree. Not every source or device has the ability for HD formats of DTS and/or DD, and additionally it may also depend on the audio formats provided on a medium.

PCM audio in general is common since the first digital output (my first CD player in the late 1980s had an coax output for PCM 2.0) and multi-channel PCM is part of the HDMI specs and Audio-DVD specs.

Via my HDMI-Switch workaround I use multi-channel PCM with my Playstation 4 (which only supports normal DTS and DD) and my multi-channel Audio-DVDs provide only PCM audio.

So "common" is just a point of view.

Even if multi-channel PCM is not common, the LG TV should support it to provide more flexibility for its users.


Maddes


P.S.:

The LG TV already has a downmixing functionality for other multi-channel formats, which may be re-usable for multi-channel PCM, so my guess as a programmer that an implementation shouldn't be that hard. Just my two cents.
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post #570 of 590 Old 06-23-2018, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maddes View Post
I disagree. Not every source or device has the ability for HD formats of DTS and/or DD, and additionally it may also depend on the audio formats provided on a medium.

PCM audio in general is common since the first digital output (my first CD player in the late 1980s had an coax output for PCM 2.0) and multi-channel PCM is part of the HDMI specs and Audio-DVD specs.

Via my HDMI-Switch workaround I use multi-channel PCM with my Playstation 4 (which only supports normal DTS and DD) and my multi-channel Audio-DVDs provide only PCM audio.

So "common" is just a point of view.

Even if multi-channel PCM is not common, the LG TV should support it to provide more flexibility for its users.

Maddes

P.S.:

The LG TV already has a downmixing functionality for other multi-channel formats, which may be re-usable for multi-channel PCM, so my guess as a programmer that an implementation shouldn't be that hard. Just my two cents.

Well it supports one format (TrueHD) with downmixing to DD+. It already correctly tells the source that it supports PCM 2.0 since it has no use for any more and can't pass any more. Your use case of splitting the signal and wanting better audio than the TV can use is unusual, and there do exist splitters that do the job correctly already (merging the audio EDID from the receiver side and the video EDID from the TV side). Downmixing PCM 5.1 to PCM 2.0 on the TV side serves no purpose since the source side could have just done that in the first place as the TV correctly requested. The only reason to support TrueHD downmixing is because it is often the only format with atmos, and being able to convert that to DD+ with atmos allows atmos from a UHD or bluray to be passed to a soundbar. PCM downmixing doesn't gain the TV user anything in terms of passthrough or sound on the TV.

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