Let’s Talk About Black Frame Insertion - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 35Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 108 Old 05-19-2018, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
OldSenileGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Question Let’s Talk About Black Frame Insertion

I’m in the market to retire my ~2013 Samsung Plasma and get an OLED. Due to concerns about the way these TV’s handle motion, I’m limiting myself to looking at either the LG C8 (or B8 if it ever comes out and has BFI) or the Sony A8F. I’m leaning towards the LG, but this thread isn’t about which of the two to get. (I know the Sony is supposedly better with motion, but I hate using any kind of motion interpolation algorithms so if you strip those away, it seems to also strip away most of the advantage the Sony has.)

I’m more wondering if anyone can comment on how much the BFI affects these TV’s, and how exactly it works.

For example, every reviewer says that the main knock against BFI is that it lowers the brightness of the TV and can add a flicker to the picture. But as someone who’s spent the past 5 years watching a plasma (which also has inherent flicker, I believe), is this something I’m likely to notice? Or will it just look “normal” to me? And regarding the brightness - will it still be brighter than the Plasma I’m used to? Because I understand that it won’t be as bright as it COULD be, but if it’s still brighter than my Plasma, it’ll still look good to me!

Another question - 90% of my viewing is what most reviewers call “low frame-rate content”. That is, content mastered at 24fps delivered to me through Hulu, Netflix, HBOGO, Plex, maybe 4k Blu Rays in the future, etc. My AppleTV is set to match the frame rate of the content, so that when I’m watching any of this content, I’m sending a 24Hz signal to the TV*. But most reviews have said that these TV’s can only do BFI at 60Hz. It’s my understanding that in order to get a native 24Hz to the tv, the tv is actually running at 120Hz and playing each frame 5 times. If this is the case, does that mean that BFI will inherently add a 3:2 pulldown to any 24fps material I watch just to get it to display at 60Hz? Or is there something else I’m not understanding here?



*Side question - Did LG ever add a damn “info” button to their UI so I can see the frame rate of the signal being fed to the TV? I love their UI, but that one omission is infuriating!
gorman42 likes this.
OldSenileGuy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 108 Old 05-19-2018, 07:11 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
8mile13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 7,623
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2427 Post(s)
Liked: 1418
..as C|NET puts it ''BFI mimics how your brain reacts to CRT, Plasma, and traditional film presentation'', so one will not get the same sense of naturalness with motion.

Here is some info on scanning backlights, strobed backlights and black frame insertion.
https://www.blurbusters.com/faq/scanningbacklight/
8mile13 is online now  
post #3 of 108 Old 05-20-2018, 05:52 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
RWetmore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Brick, New Jersey
Posts: 4,265
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 659 Post(s)
Liked: 396
Good thread topic. I'll be interested to hear the responses from member who have gone from plasma to OLED with BFI.
WOLVERNOLE likes this.
RWetmore is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 108 Old 05-20-2018, 06:13 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 596
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 430 Post(s)
Liked: 280
Subscribing. I've been wondering about the details of this myself and hope someone here understands it well. Since the panel is natively 120Hz, film content without interpolation is simply repeating every frame 5 times (24 x 5 = 120). The obvious strategy for BFI would be replacing the last of each of those 5 repetitions with a black frame. That would lead to a 20% brightness loss and would be displaying 24 black frames per second. The brightness loss seems manageable if you adjust your settings to compensate and are watching in a dim/dark room. But thinking back to the old old days of CRT computer monitors, an effective refresh rate of 24 Hz does seem rather low. I'd think the flicker would be noticeable. I don't know plasma tech well, but I believe their inherent flicker is at a much higher frequency.

But again, I don't know how these sets really work. Maybe there are some other clever tricks going on.
tppytel is offline  
post #5 of 108 Old 06-09-2018, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
OldSenileGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 13
I guess either

A) No one actually uses Black Frame insertion

or

B) No one actually knows how it works and it's just voodoo
OldSenileGuy is offline  
post #6 of 108 Old 06-10-2018, 04:12 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Hey! Recently acquired an LG 65c8.

I use BFI when I watch Netflix (streamed from wifi through the TV itself, no additional equipment). There I notice the flicker a bit, but I get used to it. I notice that when I look at something else in the room and the TV is in my peripheral vision, the flicker seems more noticeable. When I'm looking at the TV it's a bit annoying at first, then I get used to it. It reduces brightness, so I turned brightness and OLED lights higher to compensate which works quite well.

When I watch normal (digital) TV and I turn BFI on the flicker gets so bad that I can't watch it, so for normal TV I turn it off. The difference might be the framerate that it's presented at? In Holland where I'm from TV is 25fps, I think. The flicker just gives you a headache when watching normal TV. So there I turn it off, and I use regular old motion tech to make it smoother (not a fan of 24p, prefer artificially improving the motion with artifacts than choppy panning shots in 24p).

Thankfully the TV remembers differences in settings for different inputs, so BFI netflix ups the brightness and OLED lights while TV reduces it a bit because no use of BFI is made.

My final verdict: I think BFI looks a little bit better than "regular" motion improvement settings when watch Netflix. Could live without it though. I don't like watching low FPS native stuff. BFI is really bad when watching normal TV. BFI at low FPS content gives big flicker issues. I'm probably more sensitive to it because I use a high framerate monitor and can't stand choppiness anymore. Also have big issues with choppiness of panning shots in cinema's.
Shekelberg is offline  
post #7 of 108 Old 06-11-2018, 09:41 AM
Member
 
Jesse Coane's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 72
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Most people seem to not dig BFI on the C8, but I can't live without it. My experience coming from Plasma (ST60) to OLED (C8). Without BFI, I struggle with the motion. It seems artificial. With BFI i think everything looks great. My brain just says "This is what a movie is suppose to look like." No distractions. I can get totally lost in the story. Should Mention I don't use any other motion enhancements.

As far as BFI flickering, I don't really notice flickering in 60 & 24 fps content, but with 25fps the flicker is unbearable. It's probably because for 25fps the panel is running at 100hz instead of 120hz. For now I've been using a separate picture mode for 25fps.

Planning to get it calibrated down the road, but for now this is how I've compensated for BFI being darker.
-In SDR, you can just increase OLED and Contrast settings. Think I'm 100 OLED and 90 Contrast for the ISF modes.
-For Dolby Vision I find that "Cinema Home" with BFI looks the same as "Cinema" without BFI. (Flattened everything in VIVD for a daytime mode.)
-HDR10 is a little trickier because "Home" isn't brighter. For now I'm using Cinema mode with tone mapping on and dynamic contrast on low. On paper this sounds like a bad idea, but when I compare it to default cinema or technicolor with BFI off it looks pretty close to me.

I am curious about how calibrators find calibrating with BFI on.

This is just my experience. Know a lot of other people feel differently.

Jesse
WOLVERNOLE likes this.
Jesse Coane is online now  
post #8 of 108 Old 07-31-2018, 07:53 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Coane View Post
Most people seem to not dig BFI on the C8, but I can't live without it. My experience coming from Plasma (ST60) to OLED (C8). Without BFI, I struggle with the motion. It seems artificial. With BFI i think everything looks great. My brain just says "This is what a movie is suppose to look like." No distractions. I can get totally lost in the story. Should Mention I don't use any other motion enhancements.

As far as BFI flickering, I don't really notice flickering in 60 & 24 fps content, but with 25fps the flicker is unbearable. It's probably because for 25fps the panel is running at 100hz instead of 120hz. For now I've been using a separate picture mode for 25fps.

Planning to get it calibrated down the road, but for now this is how I've compensated for BFI being darker.
-In SDR, you can just increase OLED and Contrast settings. Think I'm 100 OLED and 90 Contrast for the ISF modes.
-For Dolby Vision I find that "Cinema Home" with BFI looks the same as "Cinema" without BFI. (Flattened everything in VIVD for a daytime mode.)
-HDR10 is a little trickier because "Home" isn't brighter. For now I'm using Cinema mode with tone mapping on and dynamic contrast on low. On paper this sounds like a bad idea, but when I compare it to default cinema or technicolor with BFI off it looks pretty close to me.

I am curious about how calibrators find calibrating with BFI on.

This is just my experience. Know a lot of other people feel differently.

Jesse
I've used a Panasonic 42Vt30 for the last couple of years and BFI was one reason why I opted for the rather more expensive C8 over last year's C7 (in addition to Dynamic Tone Mapping for Gamemode, which I consider something of a potential future-proofing feature of the TV, when presumeably more games will be mastered at more than 1,000 nits and HDR support will be standart).


I share your views on motion interpolation. I tried it on my C8 and while I think Sony and also Philips do a better job at this, it's still not something I can appreciate on any TV of any make (yet). It just looks "off" to me, even when the benefits in term of motion resolution are obvious and artificats are kept to a minimal (even low degrees of the dreaded soap opera effect bother me). It's a moot point though, as I've obviously become very sensitive to input lag over the last couple of years. I noticed it straight away, when I tried motion interpolation on my LG, which of course only works outside of Gamemode. I think the TV has a pretty high input lag then of something akin to 80ms and any game that is not like turn-based or anything (I tried it with Horizon Zero Dawn for instance) feels like you are moving through molasses ... it's unpleasant and more detracting than the motion resolution issue.




The beauty of LG C8 is that once you switch to Gamemode you are playing at around ~24ms I think and it definitely feels virtually indistinguishable from my Panasonic. It feels snappy and responsive, just right and exactly as I hoped - no issues there. The ONLY feature in terms of motion clarity in Gamemode is BFI and it works - to my understanding - as well as could be expected. It does not solve the issue and I still feel my Panasonic was quite a bit sharper, but it helps alot to address the issue of e.g. circles being drawn out into ovals and such when moving horizontally accross the screen (one "test" I run, is simply moving the Destiny 'selector' horizontal at max speed). It's hard to measure, but I think saying that it cuts the distortion, so to speak, in half, is actually pretty accurate.


Now, there are a couple of things to note here. In terms of flicker, I don't see on consoles, not at all, but I also never really saw it for my Plasma either, like never really. It can depend on the viewing conditions and the content though. I almost skipped the C8 as watching on the sales floor under their lighting running Pal TV content ... it was not pretty and the flicker was obvious. At home under my lighting, I can still see the flicker when I watch TV. I definitely would not recommend it then, if you watch a lot TV, because if you are anything like me you will definitely notice it there, and yeah, I find it distracting.


Now the other thing of note is that the price drop is quite significant. It depends on a number of factors I think, in terms of how much of a subjective impact it has, and there a few things you can do to address it, like pumping up the OLED Light and activating Dynamic Contrast (I know, but let me finish) ... the thing is, in terms of HDR content, you don't have the wiggle room left you can use for SDR content to mostly compensate for the subjective loss in brightness. This means, that if you play in HDR (again like Destiny 2) you will end up with a signficantly dimmer picture (I'd say it's "feels" like 15% or so, but don't take this an measurement, but just a gutfeeling, I have no way to ascertain it). It's obvious, but again though, DC helps and it's really the only time, where I find it to be of legitmate use. To make a real life example, in Destiny 2 I always turn on BFI for PvP/Crucible, but mostly leave it off for PvE (which I rarely do anyways) ^^ because it does detract from the sumptous HDR visuals the game has to offer, which in turn are not really the point of PvP, where they can actively even hinder you at times (like literally blinding you to enemies jumping in front of the sun and such).


I also felt that 60 fps games seem to benefit more in terms of gained clarity (like say Nioh as an SDR game in performance mode vs Destiny 2 a HDR running at 30 fps) over 30 fps games. That is also of concern seeing as right now, most fast action games (where this kind of motion clarity is of big concern) run at 30 fps, at least on consoles, be it PS4 Pro or Xbox One X. Speaking of XBX, I'd say that like Forza 7 does definitely benefit from BFI, although ... like I said, you do loose alot of brigthness in HDR mode. For something like Forza 6 though, running in SDR at 60 fps, I'd say BFI is a no-brainer.


Now, the same pretty much goes for movies. The benefit less in my view than 60 fps games, and for HDR you loose a significant amount of brightness. It's a steep trade-off to be honest and mostly, I don't use it for movies, and certainly not for HDR ones.


So, BFI is not perfect, as it still does not look (to me) as sharp as my old Pana Plasma and it comes at the cost of brightness, esp. in HDR mode, and it seems to be only real "ideal" for 60 fps SDR gaming content, where it really shines, while other uses always include severe trade-offs.


I think it really depends on your usage profile then. TV I'd say is a no-go, Movies is okay, but you will loose some of that HDR-WoW-Effect, Gaming can benefit greatly, depending on whether you are running 30fps or 60fps (at least that's my impression), and in terms of HDR, you face the exact same issue as with movies. For gaming it's the only option to do anything about motion though, as playing outside of gamemode, is really only enjoyable for games that are largely 'menu'-driven, generally slow, and certainly not dependend on fast reactions and timing.


I will also say though, that the deep black of the C8 blows my Pana Plasma out of the water, which I did not expect to be honest, even on SDR content like The Evil Within 2 (a very dark game, with plenty of you and your flashlight going about ^^), it looks incredible and like a significant upgrade. HDR itself is the absolute game changer here. Something like God of War looks truly magnificant, almost tears-of-joy inducing good. It's the singular leap I've witnessed since moving from my CRT to a Sony 1080p LCD back in the day. Is it worth it though then? For any HDR content, which will include probably all future AAA content, the answer is yes.


For SDR content ... well, yes and no. Something like the aforementioned TEW2, a very dark and atmosphere driven game that's also rather slow paced, yes, it's simply better on my OLED. If I compare it to say Overwatch though, where you don't gain anything in terms of HDR or resolution (the benefit of 4K to me, at least on a 55" is not enough to justify the purchase to be honest, and having seen the C6 65" for a long time at a friends now, I don't feel much different about that either - not compared to the bounds and leaps of HDR though), plus you are looking at a really bright and fast paced game, the Plasma was argueably the better choice.


So, yeah, consider your usage profile and also timing - aka not all games run in HDR yet (and some that do like Monster Hunter: World are broken). THe same goes for movies, if that is your vice. It will be some time, before the tech comes into it's full potential, so maybe just wait 2-3 more years. I'm sure motion handling will improve and HDR will be a default option, as it's slowly even coming to services like Netflix and such, if shows are your primary usage. If we are talking TV, then I'd say stick to your old set. At least around here, we are looking at 720p SDR content now and for the forseeable future as the default format, and in that regard, I feel like the OLED is more of a downgrade really, plues BFI causes visible flicker ...


I hope this helps, even though I am a bit late to the tread! :-)


Cheers!
WOLVERNOLE likes this.
Ffan is offline  
post #9 of 108 Old 07-31-2018, 07:59 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Sorry I hit quote by mistake. It was meant to be quick reply :-)
Ffan is offline  
post #10 of 108 Old 07-31-2018, 10:20 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
gorman42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,340
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 528 Post(s)
Liked: 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSenileGuy View Post
Another question - 90% of my viewing is what most reviewers call “low frame-rate content”. That is, content mastered at 24fps delivered to me through Hulu, Netflix, HBOGO, Plex, maybe 4k Blu Rays in the future, etc. My AppleTV is set to match the frame rate of the content, so that when I’m watching any of this content, I’m sending a 24Hz signal to the TV*. But most reviews have said that these TV’s can only do BFI at 60Hz. It’s my understanding that in order to get a native 24Hz to the tv, the tv is actually running at 120Hz and playing each frame 5 times. If this is the case, does that mean that BFI will inherently add a 3:2 pulldown to any 24fps material I watch just to get it to display at 60Hz? Or is there something else I’m not understanding here?
Being in the same exact boat as you, I asked this very same question and got a direct answer to it. Yes, BFI always forces stuff at 60Hz, causing 3:2 judder. Basically unusable for my tastes. I don't own the TV, I'm only reporting what I was told some time ago.
Quote:
*Side question - Did LG ever add a damn “info” button to their UI so I can see the frame rate of the signal being fed to the TV? I love their UI, but that one omission is infuriating!
You should download the LG app, which has an "Info" button that achieves what you are looking for.

Seriously. AVS is a place where you go to learn to be unhappy. - Bear5k
Video Pioneer PDP-LX6090 (calibrated)
Audio Yamaha RX-A3010, Dynaudio Audience 72 (FL, FR), Dynaudio Audience 42C (C), Dynaudio 42W (SR, SL), Chario Piccolo Star Satellite (Presence Height), SVS PB-1000 (SW)
Sources HTPC, Xbox One S, Squeezebox
gorman42 is offline  
post #11 of 108 Old 08-02-2018, 06:13 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 3
BFI is amazing if done correctly, since it best mimics CRT and plasma which didn't use sample and hold. But again, not all BFI implementation is the same.
chuffed is offline  
post #12 of 108 Old 08-02-2018, 07:00 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Cam1977's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: El paso
Posts: 5,468
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3062 Post(s)
Liked: 3780
^and to me it's a wasted feature on the C8 since it dims the image too much.
WOLVERNOLE likes this.
Cam1977 is online now  
post #13 of 108 Old 08-02-2018, 08:16 PM
Member
 
PaperLion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 113
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 71 Post(s)
Liked: 36
I used it on an IMSA prototype race 720p 60fps other day on my C8 and thought it was pretty excellent for that. I had to drive the Oled light to 60 to make it comfortable, about twice as high as I normally watch without BFI. I didn't find it any more eye fatiguing than regular viewing.
PaperLion is offline  
post #14 of 108 Old 08-31-2018, 12:39 PM
Newbie
 
video.user's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ffan View Post
I've used a Panasonic 42Vt30 for the last couple of years and BFI was one reason why I opted for the rather more expensive C8 over last year's C7 (in addition to Dynamic Tone Mapping for Gamemode, which I consider something of a potential future-proofing feature of the TV, when presumeably more games will be mastered at more than 1,000 nits and HDR support will be standart).
This is an awesome response for me, thank you! I currently have a Panasonic P60ST30. I run XBOX One X and use it for gaming, movies and TV. In fact when it comes to gaming, I played D1 so much that it still has burn in lol. The fact you are able to provide such specifics with using it for D2 in both PVE and PVP mode is unbelievable. I think I'm finally gonna pull the trigger as the ol' Panny is starting to develop a bit of a buzz. Now to decide on a C8 or a B8. Thanks again.

Last edited by video.user; 08-31-2018 at 12:40 PM. Reason: Trying to show it as a reply to Ffan
video.user is offline  
post #15 of 108 Old 08-31-2018, 07:34 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BuGsArEtAsTy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: AVS Forum
Posts: 8,292
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 715 Post(s)
Liked: 348
I don't game on my C8 65", but I briefly tried BFI for other content, and I can't stand it.

Not only does it dim the picture, I find the flicker unbearable. Completely unwatchable for any length of time for me.

Yes, the motion on pans on OLEDs without BFI does suck, but luckily movies and TV shows don't consist of continuously panning shots. I'd rather deal with the occasional bad motion than the headache that is LG's BFI.

It's nice that they included that option for those who might tolerate it, but now I understand why LG seemed hesitant to add it in all those years.

Also, I don't use motion interpolation either, because I really dislike the soap opera effect. I'm told though it's better implemented on the Sony OLEDs, so you might want to consider one of those. That is, if you don't game, because input lag on Sony OLEDs is higher than LG OLEDs.
BuGsArEtAsTy is offline  
post #16 of 108 Old 11-14-2018, 01:30 PM
Senior Member
 
thepiecesfit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 383
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked: 109
I might be limited in my experience but I find Real Cinema set to ON looks not much different than with having BFI on. I did have to raise OLED light to 100 and Contrast to 100 to make it watchable with BFI.
thepiecesfit is online now  
post #17 of 108 Old 11-14-2018, 01:46 PM
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 868
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 519 Post(s)
Liked: 294
I don't think reduced persistence or BFI modes are a good match for OLED TVs, or projectors for that matter, where they both struggle to do HDR due to peak nits not being sufficient. You are often lumens-limited for both OLED and projectors.

Rolling-scan OLEDs in VR helmets work great, where your vision adapts to the lowered brightness so it's fine.

The best thing to hope for in an OLED is probably 120hz native input (HDMI 2.1) or interpolated. Same for a projector.

I find BFI or low-persistence counterproductive unless it's combined with interpolation or native HFR, because reductions to persistence while watching 24 fps movies makes their choppiness (from 180 degree shutter angles) even more obvious and annoying.

One thing that also should be said is that anything less than 120hz with BFI on top = 240hz, will exhibit visible flickering. And the brighter the content (HDR highlights), the more noticeable that flickering is.

For LCDs, BFI makes great sense because you can dim or turn off the backlight independently (PWM) of the pixels' current brightness value, and they often have lumens to spare. Still, for HDR you're trading off colour volume for motion performance. And none of that makes sense unless you're already using interpolation.

Taking 24 fps video and interpolating it to 120 fps at 120 hz will reduce the persistence by a factor of five (24 x 5 = 120), without lowering brightness at all. Then taking it from there to 240hz will cut it in half, again. There are diminishing returns after that, at 480hz, 960hz, etc, where you gain more benefit from low persistence when things are moving quickly. In typical movies, during talking heads parts, people don't move that fast, and the backgrounds are static. But in action movies, car chases, over-land flight and landscape shots, you will see benefits that lower motion blur.

Having low persistence displays showing 24 fps content only makes the choppiness more apparent, thus making the problems worse.

Last edited by BattleAxeVR; 11-14-2018 at 03:08 PM.
BattleAxeVR is offline  
post #18 of 108 Old 11-15-2018, 06:51 AM
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 555
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 419 Post(s)
Liked: 162
On a pc forum, they mention that on lg oleds if you use it to hook a pc, use 1080p @120 hz for low persistence and smoother motion without the choppiness. you can do [email protected] with 4:4:4 12 bit chroma on the current hdmi standard. it is recommended over pushing [email protected] from a 4k capable graphics because of the lower persistence for motion and full 12 bit chroma.

For BFI, oleds can only do bfi at 60hz currently, i can easily spot flickering. i have a z9d too, but lcd's use backlight blinking to increase the bfi effective rate, i do not notice flicker on the lowest bfi setting on the z9d. brightness hit is there (much lower on sony tv's that use x motion clarity like z9f) but lcd's like z9d are very bright to handle a hit from activating bfi. hdr is probably not the right source for bfi because you want the tv to hit its peak brightness for highlights, but sdr it works well.

if oleds had native 480hz panels and bfi, they would have low plasma like persistence.
JLaud25 is offline  
post #19 of 108 Old 12-05-2018, 10:32 AM
Senior Member
 
Jbhur212's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Akron
Posts: 395
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 198 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Huzzah! We have been saved...thank you Tom Cruise! (Heh-heh) https://news.avclub.com/listen-to-to...moo-1830879606
lorenzo1000 likes this.

EQUIPMENT:LG OLED77C8PUA (ISF calibrated by Jeff Meier)-OPPO BDP-203 blu-ray player-OPPO DV-983H dvd player-Pioneer CLD-99 laser disc player-Marantz 7703 Preamplifier-200x3 Acurus amplifier-150x2 Acurus amplifier-Emotiva UPA-2 amplifier-Outlaw Model 5000 amplifier-2 Mythos 4-1 Mythos 8-2 Mythos BPX-2 NHT Super Zeros-4 SVS Prime Elevation speakers-Hsu VTF-2 MK3 subwoofer-Elite-Xbox One S-Roku Ultra streaming player
Jbhur212 is offline  
post #20 of 108 Old 12-05-2018, 11:09 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 376
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 292 Post(s)
Liked: 193
I think it works well. I only see flickering when bright whites are on display. Even then it doesn't really bother me. I have it engaged at all times on my A9F, even with 24p movies. Gives those a cinematic look. Sports and games look much sharper in motion with BFI. Maybe not quite as sharp as plasma, but I would estimate about 75-80% as good. I'll never go back to sample and hold.

Sony 55A9F
LG 55B6
Micolash is offline  
post #21 of 108 Old 12-05-2018, 11:12 AM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Keenan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 34,200
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4014 Post(s)
Liked: 3735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micolash View Post
I think it works well. I only see flickering when bright whites are on display. Even then it doesn't really bother me. I have it engaged at all times on my A9F, even with 24p movies. Gives those a cinematic look. Sports and games look much sharper in motion with BFI. Maybe not quite as sharp as plasma, but I would estimate about 75-80% as good. I'll never go back to sample and hold.
What setting is that on the A9F? Sony's terminology for their video processing functions confuses me.
Keenan is online now  
post #22 of 108 Old 12-05-2018, 01:51 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 376
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 292 Post(s)
Liked: 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
What setting is that on the A9F? Sony's terminology for their video processing functions confuses me.
Clearness set to "high"

Sony 55A9F
LG 55B6
Micolash is offline  
post #23 of 108 Old 12-05-2018, 01:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
gomo657's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,932
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 821 Post(s)
Liked: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micolash View Post
Clearness set to "high"


Or motionflow clear

"well you know what doctor I'm going to go home take two aspirins and call you a b****"
gomo657 is online now  
post #24 of 108 Old 12-05-2018, 02:41 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Keenan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 34,200
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4014 Post(s)
Liked: 3735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micolash View Post
Clearness set to "high"
Quote:
Originally Posted by gomo657 View Post
Or motionflow clear
That's the part that confuses me. I don't understand how all the settings relate or function together and nowhere have I found an explanation from Sony that pertains to this exact model of display. Basically, pretty much all the entries in the two menu pages below I would like to have a better understanding of what they do and how they interact with each other.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Sony A9F menu -1.JPG
Views:	113
Size:	65.9 KB
ID:	2492132   Click image for larger version

Name:	Sony A9F menu -2.JPG
Views:	107
Size:	67.4 KB
ID:	2492134  
Keenan is online now  
post #25 of 108 Old 12-05-2018, 03:14 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
gomo657's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,932
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 821 Post(s)
Liked: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
That's the part that confuses me. I don't understand how all the settings relate or function together and nowhere have I found an explanation from Sony that pertains to this exact model of display. Basically, pretty much all the entries in the two menu pages below I would like to have a better understanding of what they do and how they interact with each other.


Since they’ve changed the options for cinemotion to auto and off instead of off,low,med and high you’ll have to experiment. In the past cinemotion higher than low sped up motion. The smoothness slider is more of a blur smoother than cadence. If you use the testufo (via pc connection) the rolling picture test motionflow smooth,standard and true cinema along with cinemotion low the writing and the windows aren’t clear but varying degrees of smooth. Clear or Custom with clearness at max the windows are well defined. The one caveat if you use clear you’ll have to increase backlight to compensate for the drop in luminance. I prefer Clear 24p is fluid without being weird and 60p especially sports is perfect watching football the spiral is well defined.

"well you know what doctor I'm going to go home take two aspirins and call you a b****"
gomo657 is online now  
post #26 of 108 Old 12-07-2018, 12:59 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Keenan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 34,200
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4014 Post(s)
Liked: 3735
Quote:
Originally Posted by gomo657 View Post
Since they’ve changed the options for cinemotion to auto and off instead of off,low,med and high you’ll have to experiment. In the past cinemotion higher than low sped up motion. The smoothness slider is more of a blur smoother than cadence. If you use the testufo (via pc connection) the rolling picture test motionflow smooth,standard and true cinema along with cinemotion low the writing and the windows aren’t clear but varying degrees of smooth. Clear or Custom with clearness at max the windows are well defined. The one caveat if you use clear you’ll have to increase backlight to compensate for the drop in luminance. I prefer Clear 24p is fluid without being weird and 60p especially sports is perfect watching football the spiral is well defined.
I'm going to get some time tonight to play with these settings but what I'm looking for is the best settings for someone who watches predominately 24 fps content be it 2K and 4K Blu-ray or streaming video along with some 60Hz live sports from cable TV sources. What even settings gives me the best image quality for that sort of content is what I'm after.

Thanks
Keenan is online now  
post #27 of 108 Old 12-07-2018, 01:08 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
fafrd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 13,331
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 4902
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
I'm going to get some time tonight to play with these settings but what I'm looking for is the best settings for someone who watches predominately 24 fps content be it 2K and 4K Blu-ray or streaming video along with some 60Hz live sports from cable TV sources. What even settings gives me the best image quality for that sort of content is what I'm after.

Thanks
If you want the best, you need to use different settings for live action sports than for 24fps cinema content. That's why different preset modes exist...
fafrd is online now  
post #28 of 108 Old 12-07-2018, 01:17 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Keenan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 34,200
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4014 Post(s)
Liked: 3735
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
If you want the best, you need to use different settings for live action sports than for 24fps cinema content. That's why different preset modes exist...
Yes, I understand that I'm just looking for the best settings for both types of viewing scenarios. I knew what those were on my previous display, a Samsung F8500, but with this new Sony and their settings nomenclature, it has me a bit confused.
Keenan is online now  
post #29 of 108 Old 01-13-2019, 03:12 AM
Member
 
AleStrife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I really son't understand why sony xe90 or xf90 tv have only a 120 hz bfi.
Witj 60 hz content it creates visible duplications in image motion..so,why they don't put 60 hz flicker for 60 hz content???
It's really no sense.
there is no way to speak directly with sony?
do they care about consumer opinion?
AleStrife is online now  
post #30 of 108 Old 01-13-2019, 08:48 PM
Member
 
MrKiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 137
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Anyone actually use BFI for 24p content on the C8/E8? There's definitely telecine judder present...does it use 3:2 pulldown to 60hz then add a black frame between each original frame? Quite useless of a feature IMO. Is judder also present on the Sony and Panasonic BFI features?
MrKiller is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply OLED Technology and Flat Panels General

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off