Sony Master Series A9F OLED and Z9F LED-LCD 4K HDR TVs Debut - Page 34 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #991 of 2319 Old 08-12-2018, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by jsessler View Post
I don't think Sony will have any problem selling these sets. They already have 37% of the premium TV market by revenue vs LG's 33%, and they'll sell every one of these new sets produced. That is, they are already#1 in the premium TV market, and you can bet they know how to price these sets competitively based on market data.
I disagree. The premium of the 65" A1E over the C8 (based on BB prices) is currently only $200, and the premium of the A8 over the C8 is $800. The A9F is going to $2500 more than the C8 (and likely $2500 over the C9 within a few months of release)? Yes, they will have some sales. But I predict Sony will have to either reduce their price dramatically or cancel this line. Most people are not like us on AVS Forum, and go for inexpensive LCDs, not premium displays. Copying the Kuro model (best display for a high premium price) did not exactly work out well for Pioneer, did it? And why do you think Panasonic has not released its OLED in the US? My guess is they did market research that suggested they won't sell enough units to be sufficiently profitable, given their premium pricing. I could see a $1000 premium, but IMO $5500 for a 65" OLED will not provide them with enough sales to be profitable (yes, I know there is some doubt as to the actual price - we'll have to wait and see). And if the C9 is better than the C8 (and it has gotten better each year), then Sony's premium price will be even less sustainable.
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post #992 of 2319 Old 08-12-2018, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by BillP View Post
I disagree. The premium of the 65" A1E over the C8 (based on BB prices) is currently only $200, and the premium of the A8 over the C8 is $800. The A9F is going to $2500 more than the C8 (and likely $2500 over the C9 within a few months of release)? Yes, they will have some sales. But I predict Sony will have to either reduce their price dramatically or cancel this line. Most people are not like us on AVS Forum, and go for inexpensive LCDs, not premium displays. Copying the Kuro model (best display for a high premium price) did not exactly work out well for Pioneer, did it? And why do you think Panasonic has not released its OLED in the US? My guess is they did market research that suggested they won't sell enough units to be sufficiently profitable, given their premium pricing. I could see a $1000 premium, but IMO $5500 for a 65" OLED will not provide them with enough sales to be profitable (yes, I know there is some doubt as to the actual price - we'll have to wait and see). And if the C9 is better than the C8 (and it has gotten better each year), then Sony's premium price will be even less sustainable.
They are already a price premium, yet they are #1 in the premium TV market. You are making the same argument against what has been successful for Apple, so sit back and see how this pans out for Sony. Sony's premium line is also more profitable than LG's, so they can easily sell fewer sets overall, yet generate far more profit, with investors being very happy.

As for Panasonic. They are no longer considered a premium brand in the US. Just as Zenith, Westinghouse, RCA, <insert other legacy brands here>, have long since lost their shine. It thus makes perfect sense that they aren't in the US market as few would look at them in the premium space. They also use LG panels, so can they differentiate their product enough where it would get any traction? Likely not, thus why they are absent.

The best indication of a misstep will be in their earning reports, and we'll just have to see. Some of your concerns are the same ones raised when Apple priced the iPhoneX at a premium price over all others, yet Apple's obscene quarterly results and increasing profit margins proved everyone wrong.
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post #993 of 2319 Old 08-12-2018, 10:06 PM
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As the C should outsell the A9 because the A9 is the equivalent of LG E not the C. The cheaper product doesn’t equal a better deal if you get more from the E or the A9f.
LG does not even make a unit that will be like the A9F. A9F is supposed to have better scaling, better picture capability. All LG OLED's are the same from B to W as far as picture.

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How much more $1000 or $2000 ? Are they really that better ? Sony is only a few hundreds more worth than LG given it’s slightly better motion & video processing. Plus LG keeps their product better updated. I swapped A1E for C7 and didn’t regret at all. The money I saved I invested in a great def tech sound surround system. Plus I got rid of dreaded Android. It reminded me of how i felt when I went to iOS from Windows Vista.
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post #994 of 2319 Old 08-12-2018, 10:57 PM
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^Even if you deem LG that negatively, they fare well enough at the shootouts.
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Originally Posted by Matsonia View Post
While a perfectly uniform panel is always great I wouldn't call it a technical leap. its just them calibrating uniformity at a factory level.

My last two TV's an LG E6 and 75Q9FN have both been nearly perfect uniformity wise. All sony are doing is taking something like the panel lottery and changing it with these two models to make sure you always get an uniform set. Some of us are already lucky enough to get uniform sets.
Its certainly not worth paying such a premium for in my opinion.
That's easy to say if you you've been lucky in the lottery dept.
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post #995 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 05:16 AM
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That is very debatable, agree on below, but LG Oleds's have some things better than Sony like brightness and usually seem to win the shootouts too. I am a Sony guy, but many like LG better.

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LG does not even make a unit that will be like the A9F. A9F is supposed to have better scaling, better picture capability. All LG OLED's are the same from B to W as far as picture.

To each there own
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post #996 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by jsessler View Post
They are already a price premium, yet they are #1 in the premium TV market. You are making the same argument against what has been successful for Apple, so sit back and see how this pans out for Sony. Sony's premium line is also more profitable than LG's, so they can easily sell fewer sets overall, yet generate far more profit, with investors being very happy.

The best indication of a misstep will be in their earning reports, and we'll just have to see. Some of your concerns are the same ones raised when Apple priced the iPhoneX at a premium price over all others, yet Apple's obscene quarterly results and increasing profit margins proved everyone wrong.
To be clear, I am only talking about their A9 OLED being priced out of the market. When you say they are #1 in the premium market, which models are you including? There is no way they are #1 in OLEDs.
I don't think their earnings report will help much. Overall, their bottom line won't be much affected by their A9 sales one way or another. The question I am raising is whether their A9 sales will be sufficiently profitable on their own, or whether they will need to reduce their premium pricing (say to $1000 over LG) or discontinue that line. We may not know for 1-2 years on that count.
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post #997 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 05:28 AM
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[QUOTE=Cleveland Plasma;56632774]LG does not even make a unit that will be like the A9F. A9F is supposed to have better scaling, better picture capability. All LG OLED's are the same from B to W as far as picture.

Actually, LG is the same C through W. The B8 use a different processor.
I am not questioning whether the A9F will be better than the LGs. But how much premium will the market bear? The Kuro was unquestionably the best display at the time, but Pioneer obviously decided it wasn't sufficiently profitable to continue that line. Same now for the Oppo players. Most people buy on the cheap and don't want or need the "best" when priced significantly higher than most competitors. Personally, I think that's a shame and believe you get what you pay for. But with diminishing returns, premium pricing needs to be somewhat reasonable. IMO, they are too high on the A9, unless they plan to reduce the street price fairly quickly after launch. Maybe that's their plan all along.

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post #998 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 05:43 AM
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[quote=BillP;56633332]
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
LG does not even make a unit that will be like the A9F. A9F is supposed to have better scaling, better picture capability. All LG OLED's are the same from B to W as far as picture.

Actually, LG is the same C through W. The B8 use a different processor.
I am not questioning whether the A9F will be better than the LGs. But how much premium will the market bear? The Kuro was unquestionably the best display at the time, but Pioneer obviously decided it wasn't sufficiently profitable to continue that line. Same now for the Oppo players. Most people buy on the cheap and don't want or need the "best" when priced significantly higher than most competitors. Personally, I think that's a shame and believe you get what you pay for. But with diminishing returns, premium pricing needs to be somewhat reasonable. IMO, they are too high on the A9, unless they plan to reduce the street price fairly quickly after launch. Maybe that's their plan all along.
I have to be honest but if you are in the market for an OLED the new B8 is hard to pass up. I mean the price is getting very close to where you make a decision to get a good LCD/LED or the B8. I love Sony, I am a Sony guy when it comes to TV's so you go that way if money is not an issue. I have the Sony 900E so I'm no where in this equation yet. I'm waiting for the B9 or B10 65 inch in the future is at a certain price point. I don't want to get an infraction so I won't say the actual number.
I also want to see mini-LED next year but that is gonna be super expensive. Micro-LED is a whole other story.

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post #999 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 05:52 AM
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[quote=BillP;56633332]
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
LG does not even make a unit that will be like the A9F. A9F is supposed to have better scaling, better picture capability. All LG OLED's are the same from B to W as far as picture.

Actually, LG is the same C through W. The B8 use a different processor.
I am not questioning whether the A9F will be better than the LGs. But how much premium will the market bear? The Kuro was unquestionably the best display at the time, but Pioneer obviously decided it wasn't sufficiently profitable to continue that line. Same now for the Oppo players. Most people buy on the cheap and don't want or need the "best" when priced significantly higher than most competitors. Personally, I think that's a shame and believe you get what you pay for. But with diminishing returns, premium pricing needs to be somewhat reasonable. IMO, they are too high on the A9, unless they plan to reduce the street price fairly quickly after launch. Maybe that's their plan all along.

Yeah i feel like the premium Sony OLED models really suffer price gouging at release with rather quick reductions.
This is my only bad experience with buying my A1 OLED, it released for 4000 euro, but not a year later they were 2200 -2400 euro.
I expected a 10-20% pricedrop in a year, but if i knew it would be 40-45%, i would have waited.
I considered this a great learning experience.
When I buy a new Sony premium tv, it will certainly not be in release time.
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post #1000 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Matsonia View Post
While a perfectly uniform panel is always great I wouldn't call it a technical leap. its just them calibrating uniformity at a factory level.

My last two TV's an LG E6 and 75Q9FN have both been nearly perfect uniformity wise. All sony are doing is taking something like the panel lottery and changing it with these two models to make sure you always get an uniform set. Some of us are already lucky enough to get uniform sets.
Its certainly not worth paying such a premium for in my opinion.
After the debacle that was my introduction into OLED ownership, I'd pay the extra fee. Don't get me wrong, I feel as though I paid a premium for my current TV and the units before that so it grinds my gears to pony up even more for something that I believe should be featured across the line.
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post #1001 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 06:38 AM
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^Even if you deem LG that negatively, they fare well enough at the shootouts.

That's easy to say if you you've been lucky in the lottery dept.


Yes, it sucks when you get a bad one - but anything can be bad or broken

Most here with z9d were very happy with uniformity. I had 2 (first one stuck pixel) and both are near perfect as is my 70” sharp elite

This is not really a tech breakthrough but rather a QA one.
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post #1002 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 07:27 AM
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The Z9F isn't over priced. It's the same as the Samsung Q9f. Both are being marketed as Top tier LCD sets. The Oleds who knows. If it were Sony made panels and they were the brightest oled on the market with unprecedented performance it would be different

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post #1003 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 07:30 AM
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Yes, it sucks when you get a bad one - but anything can be bad or broken

Most here with z9d were very happy with uniformity. I had 2 (first one stuck pixel) and both are near perfect as is my 70” sharp elite

This is not really a tech breakthrough but rather a QA one.

This is the truth isn't it? Or did some of us conclude that they actually had an extra step for calibrating the uniformity in the factory, something unique to each panel?
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post #1004 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 07:50 AM
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.... so it grinds my gears to pony up even more for something that I believe should be featured across the line.
Maybe thats why Sony is going Dual Clutch
(sorry ... could not agree more, but I also couldn't resist )

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post #1005 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 09:18 AM
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To be clear, I am only talking about their A9 OLED being priced out of the market. When you say they are #1 in the premium market, which models are you including? There is no way they are #1 in OLEDs.
I don't think their earnings report will help much. Overall, their bottom line won't be much affected by their A9 sales one way or another. The question I am raising is whether their A9 sales will be sufficiently profitable on their own, or whether they will need to reduce their premium pricing (say to $1000 over LG) or discontinue that line. We may not know for 1-2 years on that count.
If you look at the various research data, here is what you'll find:


Here is research from IHS Markit, reported by the OLED Association.

Sony claimed the top spot in TVs valued over $2,500, relegating LG and Samsung to second and third, according to data released by IHS Markit last week. Sony’s share grew from 24.6 percent in 2016 to 36.9 percent last year, while LG’s share dropped from 40.8% to 33.0% and Samsung’s from 23.4% to 18.5%. Considering Sony’s market share was at just 14.3 percent in 2015, the company has been on a fast track toward growth. In 2016, the company beat Samsung and last year surpassed LG, which is quite ironic since Sony’s leap is largely credited to its OLED lineup. The company started mass-producing OLED televisions last year and focused on the high-end only, solely making televisions over $2,500 to maximize profitability. The lean strategy seems to have worked. When narrowing down the market to televisions over $3,000, Sony had a 44 percent share last year, according to IHS Markit, edging LG Electronics at 30.9 percent.
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post #1006 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 09:25 AM
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Well if you are a gamer their is VRR and Auto Low Latency Mode and Xbox one X is going to support HFR of 120 4K. So if a TV had the hardware HDMI 2.1, it would be able to take advantage of all the good stuff, coming in HDMI 2.1.
Remember in 2015 the fiasco with HDCP 2.2? TV'S that were 4K without it?

XBox One X is adding 1080p and 1440p at 120Hz. It is impossible to do 4K (2160p) 120Hz on HDMI 2.0 which is all it has.

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post #1007 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 09:40 AM
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XBox One X is adding 1080p and 1440p at 120Hz. It is impossible to do 4K (2160p) 120Hz on HDMI 2.0 which is all it has.
One of the biggest issues with the current crop of consoles are the CPUs. Lots of threads but they are all low clocked and while the One X has alleviated some of this by having a higher clocked CPU, it can still be a bottleneck, starving the GPU of instructions under heavy load.

Even if the One X could do 4K120, which it cannot but if it could, games are rarely hitting native 4K resolution with 60fps while maintaining their visual targets.

As a developer, even if 4K120 was on the table, I wouldn't bother trying to exceed 60fps because for one, I would have to have my visuals take a hit but more importantly the install base of capable displays isn't there so there is no incentive to do so.

Even when we get newer, more capable consoles, developers are going to optimize for 4K60 with as many rendering technique eye candy features enabled. Maybe at best some games will leave the framerate unlocked and you'll walk past 60 every now and then but again, this is why I really do not see the lack of HDMI 2.1 or VRR as a deterrent for these new Sony displays. The things Sony has chosen to focus on this iteration are much more meaningful, in my opinion and I am a huge gamer that games on every platform under the sun.
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post #1008 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by jsessler View Post
If you look at the various research data, here is what you'll find:


Here is research from IHS Markit, reported by the OLED Association.

Sony claimed the top spot in TVs valued over $2,500, relegating LG and Samsung to second and third, according to data released by IHS Markit last week. Sony’s share grew from 24.6 percent in 2016 to 36.9 percent last year, while LG’s share dropped from 40.8% to 33.0% and Samsung’s from 23.4% to 18.5%. Considering Sony’s market share was at just 14.3 percent in 2015, the company has been on a fast track toward growth. In 2016, the company beat Samsung and last year surpassed LG, which is quite ironic since Sony’s leap is largely credited to its OLED lineup. The company started mass-producing OLED televisions last year and focused on the high-end only, solely making televisions over $2,500 to maximize profitability. The lean strategy seems to have worked. When narrowing down the market to televisions over $3,000, Sony had a 44 percent share last year, according to IHS Markit, edging LG Electronics at 30.9 percent.
That seems puzzling to me. It obviously includes their high-end LCDs. It also may reflect a street price of LG's C7's and B7's being <$2500. There is no way that Sony OLEDs outsold LG OLEDs. In any case, this is not relevant to whether the A9 OLED will be successful (at a significant premium price to even its own A8 and A1E OLEDs).
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post #1009 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 10:14 AM
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That seems puzzling to me. It obviously includes their high-end LCDs. It also may reflect a street price of LG's C7's and B7's being <$2500. There is no way that Sony OLEDs outsold LG OLEDs. In any case, this is not relevant to whether the A9 OLED will be successful (at a significant premium price to even its own A8 and A1E OLEDs).
I can provide you all the sales data from this various analysts, but at the end of the day, if you don't want to believe it, then there isn't much more for me to say/do. These analysts have access to what's being shipped and sold so I expect them to be more accurate then a couple of guys on a forum speculating and using their gut feeling on the matter.

At the high-end, all data shows Sony to be dominating, and the analysts all point to Sony's high-end OLED line as the driver.
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Originally Posted by jsessler View Post
If you look at the various research data, here is what you'll find:


Here is research from IHS Markit, reported by the OLED Association.

Sony claimed the top spot in TVs valued over $2,500, relegating LG and Samsung to second and third, according to data released by IHS Markit last week. Sony’s share grew from 24.6 percent in 2016 to 36.9 percent last year, while LG’s share dropped from 40.8% to 33.0% and Samsung’s from 23.4% to 18.5%. Considering Sony’s market share was at just 14.3 percent in 2015, the company has been on a fast track toward growth. In 2016, the company beat Samsung and last year surpassed LG, which is quite ironic since Sony’s leap is largely credited to its OLED lineup. The company started mass-producing OLED televisions last year and focused on the high-end only, solely making televisions over $2,500 to maximize profitability. The lean strategy seems to have worked. When narrowing down the market to televisions over $3,000, Sony had a 44 percent share last year, according to IHS Markit, edging LG Electronics at 30.9 percent.
It's crazy how this strategy works in 2018 but 10 years ago Pioneer was killed for exclusively targeting the high end.
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post #1011 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 10:32 AM
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It's crazy how this strategy works in 2018 but 10 years ago Pioneer was killed for exclusively targeting the high end.
Remember that the current premiums (for the A1E and A8) are not huge. And it certainly doesn't surprise me that Sony's high-end LCDs dominate. It remains to be seen whether it will work for the A9 at a much larger premium.
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post #1012 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 10:36 AM
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[email protected] YCC 4:2:0 fits into the HDMI 2.0 bandwidth, although I don't think any consumer display (or GPU) supports this today.
TV manufacturers should have just gave us quad-link HDMI 2.0 (2x2 mosaic mode with 4 standard cables) back in 2017 to allow for [email protected] RGB with PC VGA cards.
8 Bit HDR would have massive banding.
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post #1013 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 10:48 AM
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8 Bit HDR would have massive banding.
I'm sure he meant that it would be SDR.

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Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
Sony XBR-75Z9F, Vizio P75-C1, Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One(X), Wii, NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, FireTV 4K-HDR, HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
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post #1014 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
8 Bit HDR would have massive banding.
Not necessarily. It looks acceptable with dithering applied. It's obviously sub-par but usable. You can see it for yourself on PC, just launch an HDR10 game with HDMI set to 8-bit. (I am not sure about all GPUs but the nVidia GTX1070 does a great job. I guess that's how 9 bit would look like.)

And I didn't mean to suggest it shall be used with HDR. I merely implied 2160p120 is theoretically possible, mainly with SDR in mind. (And leaving HDR alone, I am not sure I want 4:2:0 for games anyway. But it's a possibility none the less...)

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post #1015 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 10:58 AM
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I'll just place this here.....

Brightest TV ever tested by RTINGS. (Vizio PQ65)

Review will be published tomorrow.
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Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
Sony XBR-75Z9F, Vizio P75-C1, Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One(X), Wii, NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, FireTV 4K-HDR, HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
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post #1016 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
I'll just place this here.....

Brightest TV ever tested by RTINGS. (Vizio PQ65) [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif[/IMG]

Review will be published tomorrow.
Those are some serious nits! Holy cow
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post #1017 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 11:07 AM
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Nits are great and all but lets see how their backlight control works to keep it all in check.
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post #1018 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by drewTT View Post
Nits are great and all but lets see how their backlight control works to keep it all in check.
Absolutely...... Here are a couple quotes that were found leaked on their site. Daniel did post that these will be checked for accuracy before publishing the review tomorrow.

RTINGS updated their Q9FN review:
"The Vizio P-Series Quantum is slightly better than the Samsung Q9FN 2018. The Vizio Quantum is a bit brighter with SDR and HDR content and has a slightly better color gamut, especially in the wider Rec 2020 color space. The Quantum has better motion handling, with a faster response time and a higher flicker frequency that isn't as noticeable.The Samsung Q9FN has better gradient handling, and has new features that improve gaming performance, such as VRR and automatic low input lag."

RTINGS updated their P-Series Review:
"The Vizio P-Series Quantum is better than the Vizio P-Series 2018. The P-Series Quantum has better dark room performance due to the improved contrast ratio that delivers near-perfect blacks, especially with local dimming enabled. The Quantum also has better bright room performance, as it is much brighter and has a better reflective coating that reduces glare. The Quantum also has more saturated colors, with a wider color gamut and better color volume. Motion performance and input lag is nearly identical between the two models, as are smart features."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
Sony XBR-75Z9F, Vizio P75-C1, Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One(X), Wii, NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, FireTV 4K-HDR, HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
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post #1019 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by drewTT View Post
Nits are great and all but lets see how their backlight control works to keep it all in check.
Their backlight system is better than current Samsungs. But not the best I’ve seen.
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post #1020 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BillP View Post
I disagree. The premium of the 65" A1E over the C8 (based on BB prices) is currently only $200, and the premium of the A8 over the C8 is $800. The A9F is going to $2500 more than the C8 (and likely $2500 over the C9 within a few months of release)? Yes, they will have some sales. But I predict Sony will have to either reduce their price dramatically or cancel this line. Most people are not like us on AVS Forum, and go for inexpensive LCDs, not premium displays. Copying the Kuro model (best display for a high premium price) did not exactly work out well for Pioneer, did it? And why do you think Panasonic has not released its OLED in the US? My guess is they did market research that suggested they won't sell enough units to be sufficiently profitable, given their premium pricing. I could see a $1000 premium, but IMO $5500 for a 65" OLED will not provide them with enough sales to be profitable (yes, I know there is some doubt as to the actual price - we'll have to wait and see). And if the C9 is better than the C8 (and it has gotten better each year), then Sony's premium price will be even less sustainable.
Bill you are right on the money with your reasoning about most consumers and why Panasonic does not sell the Oled in the US.



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Originally Posted by jsessler View Post
They are already a price premium, yet they are #1 in the premium TV market. You are making the same argument against what has been successful for Apple, so sit back and see how this pans out for Sony. Sony's premium line is also more profitable than LG's, so they can easily sell fewer sets overall, yet generate far more profit, with investors being very happy.

As for Panasonic. They are no longer considered a premium brand in the US. Just as Zenith, Westinghouse, RCA, <insert other legacy brands here>, have long since lost their shine. It thus makes perfect sense that they aren't in the US market as few would look at them in the premium space. They also use LG panels, so can they differentiate their product enough where it would get any traction? Likely not, thus why they are absent.

The best indication of a misstep will be in their earning reports, and we'll just have to see. Some of your concerns are the same ones raised when Apple priced the iPhoneX at a premium price over all others, yet Apple's obscene quarterly results and increasing profit margins proved everyone wrong.

You can't compare selling a 1k iPhone selling via lease/upgrade program to a 4-5k TV. Sure Apple is successful selling via a premium price, but it is still within reach for your average consumer. It is also tough to say that Sony's premium line is more profitable than LG's, simply because we do not know the cost to make these units.

Your Panasonic argument is completely wrong. You may not see them as a premium brand, but that is not the reason why they do not sell in the United States. The cost to make an OLED is very high vs a LCD which is more profitable. Sony uses LG panels as well and they differentiated themselves with their processor (color management). Panasonic OLEDs are being used by production studios over the Sony's consumer oleds. If that doesn't say "premium" to you than I have no clue what will. So throw that differentiation argument out the window. Bill has the correct overall reasoning as to why the Panasonic OLED is not sold in the US. In order for the Panasonic OLED to be sold in the US, it needs to undergo FCC testing which they will not pay for since it will drive the cost even higher.
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