Sony Master Series A9F OLED and Z9F LED-LCD 4K HDR TVs Debut - Page 35 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1021 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by F1nesse View Post
Bill you are right on the money with your reasoning about most consumers and why Panasonic does not sell the Oled in the US.













You can't compare selling a 1k iPhone selling via lease/upgrade program to a 4-5k TV. Sure Apple is successful selling via a premium price, but it is still within reach for your average consumer. It is also tough to say that Sony's premium line is more profitable than LG's, simply because we do not know the cost to make these units.



Your Panasonic argument is completely wrong. You may not see them as a premium brand, but that is not the reason why they do not sell in the United States. The cost to make an OLED is very high vs a LCD which is more profitable. Sony uses LG panels as well and they differentiated themselves with their processor (color management). Panasonic OLEDs are being used by production studios over the Sony's consumer oleds. If that doesn't say "premium" to you than I have no clue what will. So throw that differentiation argument out the window. Bill has the correct overall reasoning as to why the Panasonic OLED is not sold in the US. In order for the Panasonic OLED to be sold in the US, it needs to undergo FCC testing which they will not pay for since it will drive the cost even higher.


Plus 1 and to equate Panasonic with Zenith,Westinghouse and RCA is way off base. People that have seen and/or calibrated the Panny from the top model to the step down state they some of the best PQ around.

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post #1022 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by sjchmura View Post
Yes, it sucks when you get a bad one - but anything can be bad or broken

Most here with z9d were very happy with uniformity. I had 2 (first one stuck pixel) and both are near perfect as is my 70” sharp elite

This is not really a tech breakthrough but rather a QA one.
But this isn't just anything, I'm not speaking to LCD (I apologize for not being specific in the post you quoted) but the known more prevalent manufacturing issue with regards to WOLED where the vertical columns of varying brightness near black can be quite distracting. Some folks aren't bothered by it or can easily put it out of mind, but it's been a thorn in the side of the tech since its debut (with only variable success in eradication over the years). On your latter point, I'm more inclined to agree, which I think could just as easily be as effective as better screening of the screens that LGD sends.

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post #1023 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 12:36 PM
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^Even if you deem LG that negatively, they fare well enough at the shootouts.
I do not mean that as a negative. I am just stating what the A9F is supposed to be, and we have to see if that is even true. LG OLED's are my choice all day if that tells you anything. If cost was no factor, sure i would take a Sony

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I have to be honest but if you are in the market for an OLED the new B8 is hard to pass up. I mean the price is getting very close to where you make a decision to get a good LCD/LED or the B8. I love Sony, I am a Sony guy when it comes to TV's so you go that way if money is not an issue. I have the Sony 900E so I'm no where in this equation yet. I'm waiting for the B9 or B10 65 inch in the future is at a certain price point. I don't want to get an infraction so I won't say the actual number.
I also want to see mini-LED next year but that is gonna be super expensive. Micro-LED is a whole other story.
I don't know about the B8, but I would take a C8 all day
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post #1024 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 12:38 PM
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Their backlight system is better than current Samsungs. But not the best I’ve seen.
If that isn't an indictment against how far Samsung has fallen, I don't guess much is (or perhaps how far Vizio has risen).
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post #1025 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 12:56 PM
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Plus 1 and to equate Panasonic with Zenith,Westinghouse and RCA is way off base. People that have seen and/or calibrated the Panny from the top model to the step down state they some of the best PQ around.
It's critical to separate consumer brand perception from the actual quality of the manufacture's product. Panasonic may produce the worlds best TV set, but it matters not if customers aren't seeking them out. Panasonic tried to ride and promote their Plasma TV's for too long and was slow to adopt alternatives as LG and Samsung, along with a host of Chinese TV's, entered an already crowded US TV market. Consumers were no longer considering Panasonic's products, and once you've lost consumers, it's really hard to get them back.

Could they reenter the US market... sure, but once their memory has faded from consumer minds, it's a almost impossible climb back. Not only do you need to rebuild your brand with consumers, you also have to convince (and pay in most cases) for that valuable and limited space on showroom floors.

Panasonic faces the same battle as Zenith,Westinghouse and RCA would in trying to reenter the US TV market. You could get some nostalgia value from consumers that remember the brand fondly, but would you entice customers to purchase a high-end TV from someone who abandoned the market once before?
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post #1026 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jsessler View Post
It's critical to separate consumer brand perception from the actual quality of the manufacture's product. Panasonic may produce the worlds best TV set, but it matters not if customers aren't seeking them out. Panasonic tried to ride and promote their Plasma TV's for too long and was slow to adopt alternatives as LG and Samsung, along with a host of Chinese TV's, entered an already crowded US TV market. Consumers were no longer considering Panasonic's products, and once you've lost consumers, it's really hard to get them back.



Could they reenter the US market... sure, but once their memory has faded from consumer minds, it's a almost impossible climb back. Not only do you need to rebuild your brand with consumers, you also have to convince (and pay in most cases) for that valuable and limited space on showroom floors.



Panasonic faces the same battle as Zenith,Westinghouse and RCA would in trying to reenter the US TV market. You could get some nostalgia value from consumers that remember the brand fondly, but would you entice customers to purchase a high-end TV from someone who abandoned the market once before?


But once again you’re under the impression that the USA market is the only one that counts. PS there’s a global economy.

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post #1027 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by sjchmura View Post
Yes, it sucks when you get a bad one - but anything can be bad or broken

Most here with z9d were very happy with uniformity. I had 2 (first one stuck pixel) and both are near perfect as is my 70” sharp elite

This is not really a tech breakthrough but rather a QA one.
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I'll just place this here.....

Brightest TV ever tested by RTINGS. (Vizio PQ65)

Review will be published tomorrow.

WOW, quite the change from Matt's "reasoning" for why 600 nits peak was better for HDR.
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post #1028 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jsessler View Post
It's critical to separate consumer brand perception from the actual quality of the manufacture's product. Panasonic may produce the worlds best TV set, but it matters not if customers aren't seeking them out. Panasonic tried to ride and promote their Plasma TV's for too long and was slow to adopt alternatives as LG and Samsung, along with a host of Chinese TV's, entered an already crowded US TV market. Consumers were no longer considering Panasonic's products, and once you've lost consumers, it's really hard to get them back.

Could they reenter the US market... sure, but once their memory has faded from consumer minds, it's a almost impossible climb back. Not only do you need to rebuild your brand with consumers, you also have to convince (and pay in most cases) for that valuable and limited space on showroom floors.

Panasonic faces the same battle as Zenith,Westinghouse and RCA would in trying to reenter the US TV market. You could get some nostalgia value from consumers that remember the brand fondly, but would you entice customers to purchase a high-end TV from someone who abandoned the market once before?

I don't think Panasonic has faded as premium brand anywhere near as much (if any) as Zenith, Westinghouse and RCA. You have to go back like 20 years or more for their reign. However, I'm not sure Panasonic has enough brand equity in the US to re-enter the premium TV market to make a profit. I would think they do and could, but they may be waiting until they can enter the middle market with OLED in addition to the premium segment once OLED panels can be had for much cheaper. The ace in the hole for OLED (LG's panels at least) is the potential for (eventual) super cheap production costs, but this is couple years away probably.


If OLED continues to be successful and cheaper, I do expect Panasonic will eventually re-enter the US market sometime in the next 2-3 years, but we will have to see what happens.
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post #1029 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 01:50 PM
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I don't think Panasonic has faded as premium brand anywhere near as much (if any) as Zenith, Westinghouse and RCA. You have to go back like 20 years or more for their reign. However, I'm not sure Panasonic has enough brand equity in the US to re-enter the premium TV market to make a profit. I would think they do and could, but they may be waiting until they can enter the middle market with OLED in addition to the premium segment once OLED panels can be had for much cheaper. The ace in the hole for OLED (LG's panels at least) is the potential for (eventual) super cheap production costs, but this is couple years away probably.


If OLED continues to be successful and cheaper, I do expect Panasonic will eventually re-enter the US market sometime in the next 2-3 years, but we will have to see what happens.
LG has the OLED panel market monopolized. It looks like other manufacturers aren't willing to invest in R&D for their own panels. I hope cost come down but it all starts with an another OLED panel competitor to. The cost to manufacture a Panasonic OLED is close to LG models MSRP. With that being said and get this thread back to Sony. It's awesome Sony is making this line, but they will only move ~300 units. These have to be a limited run series.
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post #1030 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 02:02 PM
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Sony Master Series A9F OLED and Z9F LED-LCD 4K HDR TVs Debut

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Originally Posted by F1nesse View Post
LG has the OLED panel market monopolized. It looks like other manufacturers aren't willing to invest in R&D for their own panels. I hope cost come down but it all starts with an another OLED panel competitor to. The cost to manufacture a Panasonic OLED is close to LG models MSRP. With that being said and get this thread back to Sony. It's awesome Sony is making this line, but they will only move ~300 units. These have to be a limited run series.


I see you’re a newcomer and don’t understand or refuse to but Sony will sell way more than 300.

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post #1031 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 02:24 PM
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I see you’re a newcomer and don’t understand or refuse to but Sony will sell way more than 300.
I understand completely. How many units do you think they will move? I hope they move a lot because if it’s in the thousands then Panasonic can definitely enter the market
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post #1032 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 03:03 PM
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I understand completely. How many units do you think they will move? I hope they move a lot because if it’s in the thousands then Panasonic can definitely enter the market
Sony is expected to buy around 500,000 OLED panels from LG Display this year. A1E, A8Fs, and 300 A9Fs, lol... Kidding, of course, model breakdown is not provided, but I imagine they expect to sell tens of thousands of A9Fs this year and more in 2019.

http://m.theinvestor.co.kr/view.php?ud=20180404000854
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post #1033 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 03:03 PM
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But once again you’re under the impression that the USA market is the only one that counts. PS there’s a global economy.
I understand there is a global market, but we're talking specifically about the USA market. Panasonic could be the #1 brand in Albania, but that means nothing to US consumers.
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post #1034 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 03:15 PM
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I don't think Panasonic has faded as premium brand anywhere near as much (if any) as Zenith, Westinghouse and RCA. You have to go back like 20 years or more for their reign. However, I'm not sure Panasonic has enough brand equity in the US to re-enter the premium TV market to make a profit. I would think they do and could, but they may be waiting until they can enter the middle market with OLED in addition to the premium segment once OLED panels can be had for much cheaper. The ace in the hole for OLED (LG's panels at least) is the potential for (eventual) super cheap production costs, but this is couple years away probably.


If OLED continues to be successful and cheaper, I do expect Panasonic will eventually re-enter the US market sometime in the next 2-3 years, but we will have to see what happens.
I don't think Panasonic was ever seen as a premium brand. I always thought of them on the same tier as Sharp or Toshiba (who also left the US market and never came back), but not like Sony. I think Panasonic benefitted for a few years when they were one of the few companies making plasma TVs. So they got an automatic boost by default because of the picture quality advantage over LCD. But even then, Pioneer was the one making actual high end plasmas with cutting edge video processing, not Panasonic.

I don't see how Panasonic could realistically make a dent in the US market. LG has the mainstream OLED models at attractive prices and an already established market presence. And Sony pretty much has the high end customers on lock and just way more of a brand presence in general. Personally I see Panasonic continuing to fade into irrelevance in the consumer market.
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post #1035 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by bootymonger View Post
Sony is expected to buy around 500,000 OLED panels from LG Display this year. A1E, A8Fs, and 300 A9Fs, lol... Kidding, of course, model breakdown is not provided, but I imagine they expect to sell tens of thousands of A9Fs this year and more in 2019.

http://m.theinvestor.co.kr/view.php?ud=20180404000854
Thanks for the link. For the OLED market, the article states that LG sold 1.2 million and Sony 200,000 units. And LG and Sony plan to secure an additional 500,000 and 300,000 units, respectively, this year. As I have been stating, LG outsells Sony in the OLED market by quite a bit. IMO, the A9 is not going to change that. I really hope Sony does reduce the price of the A9 since it will undoubtedly be the best OLED available in the US. IMO, it's just not worth a $2500 premium. Other opinions will vary.
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post #1036 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by bootymonger View Post
Sony is expected to buy around 500,000 OLED panels from LG Display this year. A1E, A8Fs, and 300 A9Fs, lol... Kidding, of course, model breakdown is not provided, but I imagine they expect to sell tens of thousands of A9Fs this year and more in 2019.

http://m.theinvestor.co.kr/view.php?ud=20180404000854
HAHAH! I read it as Sony with 300k panels and LG 500k panels. Globally they will sell more than 300 , but I was just thinking about US market. We can all agree we see the A1E as the volume seller. I hope the A9F has trenmendous success in the tens of thousands and that could hold true since Magnolia will play a big part in buying most of that stock. That’s really how they sell their units.

Panasonic did get a premium badge after it took over Pioneers tech to make the best plasmas. Seeing how well their Oled is doing from reviewers and overseas market I believe they have the premium badge still. In the US, I agree they dropped the ball completely.
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post #1037 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 04:19 PM
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Thanks for the link. For the OLED market, the article states that LG sold 1.2 million and Sony 200,000 units. And LG and Sony plan to secure an additional 500,000 and 300,000 units, respectively, this year. As I have been stating, LG outsells Sony in the OLED market by quite a bit. IMO, the A9 is not going to change that. I really hope Sony does reduce the price of the A9 since it will undoubtedly be the best OLED available in the US. IMO, it's just not worth a $2500 premium. Other opinions will vary.
LG sells a lot of low-end OLED panels/TVs. They have like 90% of that market because no one else is interested in the low-margin area. As the research pointed out, for the higher-end, Sony sells more units, and enjoys a good profit margin.

Sony is doing exactly what Ford has recently announced. Ford is getting out of the high-volume no/low-margin small car business and instead focusing their efforts on the higher-profit Truck/SUV segment.

Why sell 1,000,000 value TV's at a profit margin in the very low single digits when you can sell 200,000 premium TV's at a profit margin in the mid 12-15% range? It's simply an accounting exercise, and Sony rightfully decided that they don't care about the less-expensive/low-margin "value" OLED segment.
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post #1038 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 04:41 PM
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LG sells a lot of low-end OLED panels/TVs. They have like 90% of that market because no one else is interested in the low-margin area. As the research pointed out, for the higher-end, Sony sells more units, and enjoys a good profit margin.

Sony is doing exactly what Ford has recently announced. Ford is getting out of the high-volume no/low-margin small car business and instead focusing their efforts on the higher-profit Truck/SUV segment.

Why sell 1,000,000 value TV's at a profit margin in the very low single digits when you can sell 200,000 premium TV's at a profit margin in the mid 12-15% range? It's simply an accounting exercise, and Sony rightfully decided that they don't care about the less-expensive/low-margin "value" OLED segment.
Without knowing the manufacturing costs per unit and the profit that LG and Sony get per unit from the distributors/retailers, it's impossible to know which is more profitable, selling 1,000,000 units at a lower profit margin per unit or selling 200k units at a higher margin. Sony correctly focused on the higher-end because they probably had no choice, i.e., they are limited in the number of panels they can get from LG, hence they cannot make it up in volume.
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post #1039 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 05:05 PM
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Without knowing the manufacturing costs per unit and the profit that LG and Sony get per unit from the distributors/retailers, it's impossible to know which is more profitable, selling 1,000,000 units at a lower profit margin per unit or selling 200k units at a higher margin. Sony correctly focused on the higher-end because they probably had no choice, i.e., they are limited in the number of panels they can get from LG, hence they cannot make it up in volume.
You can find the information you mention in any number of well respected analyst research papers - this is where I'm getting the information from. Some however require a paid subscription.

Sony can be very selective with the panels they get from LG. LG on the other hand has to do something with the panels they would otherwise reject for their high-end units i.e. why they are in the value space. Why toss them when the average consumer would be ok with uniformity issues, or a few bad pixels. Who cares about advanced processing at the value level, the TV will probably stay in vivid store mode anyway.
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post #1040 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 05:23 PM
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the TV will probably stay in vivid store mode anyway.
I certainly hope not.
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post #1041 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 05:30 PM
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I certainly hope not.
I doubt it will. I know a couple years back when I was trying to find a Z9D to see in person the stores in my area were waiting on a Sony rep to come in and set it up. With the extra emphasis on image accuracy on these new models, they could double-down on it and even if they don't send out a Sony rep, make an agreement with big box stores to use their settings.
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post #1042 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 05:40 PM
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I don't think Panasonic was ever seen as a premium brand. I always thought of them on the same tier as Sharp or Toshiba (who also left the US market and never came back), but not like Sony. I think Panasonic benefitted for a few years when they were one of the few companies making plasma TVs. So they got an automatic boost by default because of the picture quality advantage over LCD. But even then, Pioneer was the one making actual high end plasmas with cutting edge video processing, not Panasonic.

I don't see how Panasonic could realistically make a dent in the US market. LG has the mainstream OLED models at attractive prices and an already established market presence. And Sony pretty much has the high end customers on lock and just way more of a brand presence in general. Personally I see Panasonic continuing to fade into irrelevance in the consumer market.

Well, you may be right, but I hope not.
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post #1043 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 05:46 PM
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LG sells a lot of low-end OLED panels/TVs. They have like 90% of that market because no one else is interested in the low-margin area. As the research pointed out, for the higher-end, Sony sells more units, and enjoys a good profit margin.

Sony is doing exactly what Ford has recently announced. Ford is getting out of the high-volume no/low-margin small car business and instead focusing their efforts on the higher-profit Truck/SUV segment.

Why sell 1,000,000 value TV's at a profit margin in the very low single digits when you can sell 200,000 premium TV's at a profit margin in the mid 12-15% range? It's simply an accounting exercise, and Sony rightfully decided that they don't care about the less-expensive/low-margin "value" OLED segment.
I think you better tell some of those millions of owners that they have bought an LG low-end OLED. They may be competitively priced but that doesn't instantly make them low-end in any shape or form.

The market research that you have alluded to that shows Sony as king somehow manages to leave out the highest selling OLED's on the market and that thus far have pretty much kicked Sony's ass in the dust at public TV shootouts ... but hey they are low-end products and cannot compete with the might Sony.
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post #1044 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jsessler View Post
You can find the information you mention in any number of well respected analyst research papers - this is where I'm getting the information from. Some however require a paid subscription.

Sony can be very selective with the panels they get from LG. LG on the other hand has to do something with the panels they would otherwise reject for their high-end units i.e. why they are in the value space. Why toss them when the average consumer would be ok with uniformity issues, or a few bad pixels. Who cares about advanced processing at the value level, the TV will probably stay in vivid store mode anyway.
Do you have any proof that LG Display are binning panels for Sony whilst giving LG Electronics and others the poorer panels??
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post #1045 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by jsessler View Post
LG sells a lot of low-end OLED panels/TVs. They have like 90% of that market because no one else is interested in the low-margin area. As the research pointed out, for the higher-end, Sony sells more units, and enjoys a good profit margin.

Sony is doing exactly what Ford has recently announced. Ford is getting out of the high-volume no/low-margin small car business and instead focusing their efforts on the higher-profit Truck/SUV segment.

Why sell 1,000,000 value TV's at a profit margin in the very low single digits when you can sell 200,000 premium TV's at a profit margin in the mid 12-15% range? It's simply an accounting exercise, and Sony rightfully decided that they don't care about the less-expensive/low-margin "value" OLED segment.

A blended average of the TV category with support etc. could be 15%, but the mark up on them is WAY more. 15% isn't even close to the real number when you look at Landed Cost vs MSRP and Sale price to retailers. In theory selling less but higher values/profit makes sense (80/20 rule), but it doesn't work all the time. Look at Lamborghini and even Maybach. They needed lower cost models (Audi and Mercedes) enable them to push out the high value products. Plus just because a product sells for a high amount doesn't directly translate to higher profit. Most of the time, the cost of those products are extreme.
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post #1046 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by rikkyjames View Post
I think you better tell some of those millions of owners that they have bought an LG low-end OLED. They may be competitively priced but that doesn't instantly make them low-end in any shape or form.

The market research that you have alluded to that shows Sony as king somehow manages to leave out the highest selling OLED's on the market and that thus far have pretty much kicked Sony's ass in the dust at public TV shootouts ... but hey they are low-end products and cannot compete with the might Sony.
With statements like that, you must be a LG owner. This isn't a "my dad can beat up your dad" conversation, we're just discussing the facts of the matter.
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post #1047 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by rikkyjames View Post
Do you have any proof that LG Display are binning panels for Sony whilst giving LG Electronics and others the poorer panels??
Any manufacture of panels is going to bin their production, and in doing so, will offer those binned parts at various price points to third parties as well as to their own TV division. LG (as the TV maker) will likely use the higher-cost binned parts from LG Display in their higher-end TVs and lower cost/quality in their value sets. LG Display also offers these same binned tiers to their many third-party partners.

LG Display (the panel manufacture), has partnerships with 13+ third-parties including LG (TV makers), Sony, Panasonic, and B&O among others.

It's also possible that LG (TV maker) is passing on the best binned parts. B&O commands a very high price point, and thus, can opt for the best of the best binned panels. For LG (tv maker), they can't afford them at their desired price point, and LG Display is more than happy to generate the higher profit margin selling those panels to the third parties.

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post #1048 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jsessler View Post
Any manufacture of panels is going to bin their production, and in doing so, will offer those binned parts at various price points to third parties as well as to their own TV division. LG (as the TV maker) will likely use the higher-cost binned parts from LG Display in their higher-end TVs and lower cost/quality in their value sets. LG Display also offers these same binned tiers to their many third-party partners.

LG Display (the panel manufacture), has partnerships with 13+ third-parties including LG (TV makers), Sony, Panasonic, and B&O among others.

It's also possible that LG (TV maker) is passing on the best binned parts. B&O commands a very high price point, and thus, can opt for the best of the best binned panels. For LG (tv maker), they can't afford them at their desired price point, and LG Display is more than happy to generate the higher profit margin selling those panels to the third parties.
What you are posting is mostly correct but going forward, please use LGE (TV/Electronics company) and LGD (Display Module producer)
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post #1049 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
What you are posting is mostly correct but going forward, please use LGE (TV/Electronics company) and LGD (Display Module producer)
Sure. Just trying to keep it simple vs adding yet more acronyms.
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post #1050 of 2319 Old 08-13-2018, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by F1nesse View Post
HAHAH! I read it as Sony with 300k panels and LG 500k panels. Globally they will sell more than 300 , but I was just thinking about US market. We can all agree we see the A1E as the volume seller. I hope the A9F has trenmendous success in the tens of thousands and that could hold true since Magnolia will play a big part in buying most of that stock. That’s really how they sell their units.

Panasonic did get a premium badge after it took over Pioneers tech to make the best plasmas. Seeing how well their Oled is doing from reviewers and overseas market I believe they have the premium badge still. In the US, I agree they dropped the ball completely.
Gotta read the whole article, but I can summarize for ya:

OLED Panels produced globally by LGD in 2017 = 1.7 million.
Of those LG took 1.2 million and Sony took 200,000 in 2017.

LGD will make 2.8 million OLED panels in 2018.
LG will take 1.7 million in 2018 (500k more than they did in 2017).
Sony will take 500,000 in 2018 (300k more than 2017).

A few other companies take fewer than 100k panels per year to make the above numbers add up.

For the US, I agree that you're probably correct that Magnolia will take the bulk of Sony A9Fs. Heh, they'll take more than 300 for display models across the country.
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