Sony Master Series A9F OLED and Z9F LED-LCD 4K HDR TVs Debut - Page 38 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1111 of 2319 Old 08-15-2018, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Harbinger27 View Post
WARNING: RAMPANT SPECULATION FOLLOWS
That article lists the 55" at RM14,999 ($3,648.06) and the 65" at RM21,999 ($5,350.61). (Based on that, I'm not sure why you rounded up to $4,000 and $5,500?)



But, I don't think a direct conversion gives us all the information we need. A big Malaysian retailer lists a 65" LG C8 at RM19,810.38 ($4,818.29) but marked down to RM14,888 ($3,621.07).


Here in the States, the 65" C8's MSRP is $3,799.99, and it is presently marked down to $2,999.99. Our MSRP is 79% of theirs, and our sale price is 83% of theirs.


So, 80% of their listed pricing for the A9F sizes gives us ~$2,918.44 for the 55", and ~$4,280.49 for the 65". I think those are closer to the introductory prices we'll see. Maybe $2,999 and $4,299.
I like this analysis. I rounded up to match the leaked prices and assumed the Sony early adopter tax was in full effect. I still would not be surprised if they did a crazy high pre-order price then lowered it to 3k/4k or as you guess 3k/4300 very soon after or at launch. You can camel^3 the A1E price history and see that approach. Of course, A8F price has been absolutely flat since launch, so the lower start and hold at that price model is also possible (and preferred if they don't want to discourage early sales).
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post #1112 of 2319 Old 08-15-2018, 05:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gorman42 View Post
yeah, I read that. I was hoping for more details. In the technological advancements thread there are hypothesis that it only has to do with color uniformity for all parts of the screen.
Based on my limited interpretation skill, I don't think Sony is referring to sorting out dark scene banding in any way. They are talking color uniformity. See the paragraph where Sony says factory calibrated for uniformity, in the previous sentence they say color reproduction. They are talking in respect to color. And that section in which the paragraph is relates to color. The only interpretation I get is Sony talks of color uniformity calibrated at factory which means they sort out posterization artifacts at factory. How so many people assume Sony will eliminate banding in dark scenes I do not know. Dark scene banding is inherent to the technology, professional oled monitors have it too and I bet some Sony A9F sets, like the A8F and A1E will have it too. Many people are having unreasonable expectation.

This tv is still worth looking forward to me because of the new processing with X ultimate and faster OS.
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post #1113 of 2319 Old 08-15-2018, 06:49 PM
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People get their hopes up and will be dashed by reality. But, the excitement was generated by this image in case you missed it.



Still looks pink on the sides, but it is indeed much better.
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post #1114 of 2319 Old 08-15-2018, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by bootymonger View Post
People get their hopes up and will be dashed by reality. But, the excitement was generated by this image in case you missed it.



Still looks pink on the sides, but it is indeed much better.

Pink sucks (ask me how I know). I HATE my banding but if it were suddenly gone it would not change a thing with the pink. Just a different flavor of sh#$. Just RUINS the moment. And if their 'showpiece' slide does indeed contain pink we all need to worry.

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post #1115 of 2319 Old 08-15-2018, 07:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bootymonger View Post
People get their hopes up and will be dashed by reality. But, the excitement was generated by this image in case you missed it.
People making generalizations from an image? Sony hasn't directly spoken of bands and vignetting, these are third party panel issues which cannot be completely avoided. And to add, very recently sony held their launch promotional event of the A9F in KL and they didn't say anything at all about near black performance and banding. Sony's malaysia executives would have been more open about it if sony could pull off something which is an issue on professional oled also. It would have been something big to promote for asia region as malaysia is the place where sony tv 's for many asian countries get manufactured (assemble). I saw the stream of the event and all they did was promoted color uniformity on which they said they determined the accuracy at the factory level. People can be free to have their own interpretations of slides, but those people are setting themselfes for disappointment if they believe the banding issues on A8F and A1E are now sorted with the A9F.
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post #1116 of 2319 Old 08-15-2018, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JLaud25 View Post
People making generalizations from an image? Sony hasn't directly spoken of bands and vignetting, these are third party panel issues which cannot be completely avoided. And to add, very recently sony held their launch promotional event of the A9F in KL and they didn't say anything at all about near black performance and banding. Sony's malaysia executives would have been more open about it if sony could pull off something which is an issue on professional oled also. It would have been something big to promote for asia region as malaysia is the place where sony tv 's for many asian countries get manufactured (assemble). I saw the stream of the event and all they did was promoted color uniformity on which they said they determined the accuracy at the factory level. People can be free to have their own interpretations of slides, but those people are setting themselfes for disappointment if they believe the banding issues on A8F and A1E are now sorted with the A9F.
If this is indeed the case how on earth could they justify the rumored price?
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post #1117 of 2319 Old 08-15-2018, 07:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zeromothra View Post
If this is indeed the case how on earth could they justify the rumored price?
Probably the same sony premium that they have historically charged for their flagship tv's. When the A1E launch, the launch sony pricing was significantly more than lg , im sure in america also. Same with Z9D, it was significantly more in launch price compared to other lcd in 2016.
Update: Sony's malaysia online store now has the A9F for pre order for 21999 and 14999 ringgit for the 65 and 55 version resp. And it says delivery begins sep. 19, which means sep. 19 would be the launch date there.

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post #1118 of 2319 Old 08-15-2018, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by JLaud25 View Post
Probably the same sony premium that they have historically charged for their flagship tv's. When the A1E launch, the launch sony pricing was significantly more than lg , im sure in america also. Same with Z9D, it was significantly more in launch price compared to other lcd in 2016.
Though sony hasn't officially released price on the A9F for any region so far, at the malaysia event also sony did not discuss official pricing for the country and rest of asia. They said to watch your sony country website for update on official pricing (should get updated by the end of this month). All prices you see discussed on internet are speculation, but seeing this is sony and their flagship tv, not surprising if official pricing is close.
I can't imagine spending more than twice what I did ($2200) and rationalizing things like pink that others thought they noticed on the presentation slides. Add banding to that and ... I mean, hopefully we are all wrong and things have really been cleaned up, but ...

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post #1119 of 2319 Old 08-15-2018, 07:49 PM
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Sony Master Series A9F OLED and Z9F LED-LCD 4K HDR TVs Debut

So the z9f is lighter , draws less power, does not use the master backlight?

Might this be an improved 940e with the 256 zones? That has the same lower power and weight ....

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post #1120 of 2319 Old 08-15-2018, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
They shouldn’t call that a review, lol. It’s just a general preview, good grief.
Click bait and I fell for it.
For something that is not out yet, that's all ya get.....

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A9F Maybe $2,999 and $4,299.
I would agree with that
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post #1121 of 2319 Old 08-15-2018, 08:33 PM
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The MSRP of the A9F is ~50% higher than the equivalently sized A8F in Malaysia. The prices were announced at the event. Of course the prices in Malaysia were always higher than the US but the gaps are closing. So u shd be able to get approximate MSRPs based on the A8F MSRPs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbinger27 View Post
WARNING: RAMPANT SPECULATION FOLLOWS
That article lists the 55" at RM14,999 ($3,648.06) and the 65" at RM21,999 ($5,350.61). (Based on that, I'm not sure why you rounded up to $4,000 and $5,500?)



But, I don't think a direct conversion gives us all the information we need. A big Malaysian retailer lists a 65" LG C8 at RM19,810.38 ($4,818.29) but marked down to RM14,888 ($3,621.07).


Here in the States, the 65" C8's MSRP is $3,799.99, and it is presently marked down to $2,999.99. Our MSRP is 79% of theirs, and our sale price is 83% of theirs.


So, 80% of their listed pricing for the A9F sizes gives us ~$2,918.44 for the 55", and ~$4,280.49 for the 65". I think those are closer to the introductory prices we'll see. Maybe $2,999 and $4,299.
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post #1122 of 2319 Old 08-16-2018, 01:28 AM
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Wow 5.3k for the 65" A9F...
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post #1123 of 2319 Old 08-16-2018, 09:09 AM
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So the z9f is lighter , draws less power, does not use the master backlight?

Might this be an improved 940e with the 256 zones? That has the same lower power and weight ....
I was thinking the same thing too, if the Z9F comes out with 256 zones. Then it's a 940 tv with a different name.
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Wink

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Originally Posted by banner23 View Post
i was thinking the same thing too, if the z9f comes out with 256 zones. Then it's a 940 tv with a different name.
z56
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post #1125 of 2319 Old 08-16-2018, 10:13 AM
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If used in the same field of view. If you hold your iPhone at the same distance that would equal the field of view of a larger set and both had the same nits then yes.
Excellent, this is good news. I can forgo getting a screen and projector and just find a comfortable mount for my iPhone to attach to my head at the right distance. I wonder if they make AT iPhones, or it may be close enough to my face I don't need one.

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post #1126 of 2319 Old 08-16-2018, 10:16 AM
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For something that is not out yet, that's all ya get.....

I would agree with that
It's funny, I was thinking about $4,300 also. Maybe by Back Friday? Paid $2,800 for my Panny Plasma six years ago.
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post #1127 of 2319 Old 08-16-2018, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by zeromothra View Post
z56


That's funny. I can't wait to see the SDF after that comment

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post #1128 of 2319 Old 08-16-2018, 10:23 AM
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I was thinking the same thing too, if the Z9F comes out with 256 zones. Then it's a 940 tv with a different name.
Well if you look at the technical info for the MBD, it is much more than just lots of zones and individual LED control. One of the big aspects of the system is it's narrowly focused light cone from each LED which is intended to prevent haloing. Well, perhaps that sort of system didn't work well with their new X-Wide Angle technology and as such they could no longer use the MBD. Maybe the new backlight system is better/worse/or equal to the MBD...who knows? Bottom line is that we have no idea how many zones are present or how bright it can get nor how it will perform. Every form of TV technology (yes, including OLED!) is a series of compromises to obtain what the manufacturer deems the "best" they can do (at a price point of course)...there is NO perfect display. I for one, am looking forward to the actual reviews when these hit the streets (both professional and customer).

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Someone speculated that the X Wide Angle technology means angled backlights in addition to the backlights shooting forward.

Which, working in conjunction with each other would mean that you'd have potentially 3 (or however it takes to angle the X Wide) per zone - Meaning each LED is no longer individually controlled. HOWEVER, that being said, that cluster would still function essentially the same as if it was a single LED of a conventional method so while it may not be a Master Drive of the traditional sense, it still would function more like the master drive and differently than the typical zone, which illuminates clusters of LEDs with varying degrees of brightness to smooth out blooming.

Of course that's all speculation if that is indeed how X Wide Angle works.
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post #1130 of 2319 Old 08-16-2018, 02:11 PM
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MSRP in China so ~$3350 and $4800 for the A9F's and $2900 and $4650 for the Z9F's. (A1E MSRP was ¥35,999 and ¥24,999)


For comparison the X900F MSRP ( 65X900F ~$2500, 75X900F $4200 85X900F $8000). Also read there will be a Sony presentation of these in Germany next week so should hopefully give us some Euro pricing as well.
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post #1131 of 2319 Old 08-16-2018, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemoon737 View Post
Well if you look at the technical info for the MBD, it is much more than just lots of zones and individual LED control. One of the big aspects of the system is it's narrowly focused light cone from each LED which is intended to prevent haloing. Well, perhaps that sort of system didn't work well with their new X-Wide Angle technology and as such they could no longer use the MBD. Maybe the new backlight system is better/worse/or equal to the MBD...who knows? Bottom line is that we have no idea how many zones are present or how bright it can get nor how it will perform. Every form of TV technology (yes, including OLED!) is a series of compromises to obtain what the manufacturer deems the "best" they can do (at a price point of course)...there is NO perfect display. I for one, am looking forward to the actual reviews when these hit the streets (both professional and customer).

...bluemoon 737 I am in agreement with you. I have given this some thought and wonder what separates the Z9D Full Array LCD Displays from other Full Array Displays ? It is the inclusion of Backlight Master Drive Technology with it's Calibrated LED Beam as shown below :


Light where it's needed

Calibrated beam LED design

The Backlight Master Drive has a unique design which gathers LED lights in one spot, reducing light diffusion and the flare effect that can be seen on other full-array LED TVs. It ensures that each LED emits a straight beam for a clear picture which displays vivid lights and dark blacks.




<img src="//www.sony.com/image/ce4d7b0e7ba8f3f042798ddd88287d3c?fmt=jpeg& wid=600" alt="Conventional design" class="">
Conventional design



<img src="//www.sony.com/image/4f02b7373287bc528f29933ddc4c992a?fmt=jpeg& wid=600" alt="Calibrated beam LED design" class="">
Calibrated beam LED design

… So my question is that if any successor to the Z9D does not include the BMD Technology but only uses conventional Full Array Local Dimming Technology is it truly a Z9 Model Series Display ?

Please do not mistake my Thread Post as a Z9D Fanboy or anti Z9F (at this time who knows maybe overall the Z9F may be the far superior Display) but where is the Line drawn which determines where a Display and it's technology is classified as a model upgrade ?

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post #1132 of 2319 Old 08-16-2018, 03:30 PM
 
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That's funny. I can't wait to see the SDF after that comment
You're not on a console fanboy forum to use terms like that, this is not unionvgf. This is a tv/science forum and there is no 'SDF', so refrain from terms like that. And to the original post you were replying to, I highly doubt the z9f is only an advanced 940.
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post #1133 of 2319 Old 08-16-2018, 03:39 PM
 
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Please do not mistake my Thread Post as a Z9D Fanboy or anti Z9F (at this time who knows maybe overall the Z9F may be the far superior Display) but where is the Line drawn which determines where a Display and it's technology is classified as a model upgrade ?
If the z9f has better backlight control and higher measured contrast with local dimming it is an upgrade, regardless of what kind of non-BMD backlight system is used and the number of zones. The z9f has a full gloss panel compared to semi gloss of z9d and that would help with perceived contrast. The z9f also uses twice as powerful processing (ultimate chip), so it's an upgrade in that regard as well. Also x motion clarity will make motion superior on the z9f compared to the z9d.
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post #1134 of 2319 Old 08-16-2018, 03:52 PM
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I suspect you and others here have it right, TomcatTLC. Especially from the three things bluemoon noted--lower power draw, lower weight, and lower price--I figure something has to give. Whether or not the new processors can pick up the necessary slack is anybody's guess, of course.
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post #1135 of 2319 Old 08-16-2018, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by JLaud25 View Post
If the z9f has better backlight control and higher measured contrast with local dimming it is an upgrade, regardless of what kind of non-BMD backlight system is used and the number of zones. The z9f has a full gloss panel compared to semi gloss of z9d and that would help with perceived contrast. The z9f also uses twice as powerful processing (ultimate chip), so it's an upgrade in that regard as well. Also x motion clarity will make motion superior on the z9f compared to the z9d.
It is like the successor of the XBR8 (Sony RGB LED LCD) XBR8b without RGB LEDs. Makes no sense whatsoever. There is no Z9Db here. They should have dropped the name Z9 because the Z9F has no MBD and is not a ''each led is a zone'' FALD. They should have called it what it is which is X940F.
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post #1136 of 2319 Old 08-16-2018, 04:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
It is like the successor of the XBR8 (Sony RGB LED LCD) XBR8b without RGB LEDs. Makes no sense whatsoever. There is no Z9Db here. They should have dropped the name Z9 because the Z9F has no MBD and is not a ''each led is a zone'' FALD. They should have called it what it is which is X940F.
You work at sony? Or do you have the tv at your home to say it is a 'X940F'? It is immaterial that it does not have the BMD, that does not make it any less of a Z model, sony are doing something different from the BMD in this model as they also use X wide view with this tv, so a different backlight to go with it. The results are what matter.
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post #1137 of 2319 Old 08-16-2018, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
It is like the successor of the XBR8 (Sony RGB LED LCD) XBR8b without RGB LEDs. Makes no sense whatsoever. There is no Z9Db here. They should have dropped the name Z9 because the Z9F has no MBD and is not a ''each led is a zone'' FALD. They should have called it what it is which is X940F.
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You work at sony? Or do you have the tv at your home to say it is a 'X940F'? It is immaterial that it does not have the BMD, that does not make it any less of a Z model, sony are doing something different from the BMD in this model as they also use X wide view with this tv, so a different backlight to go with it. The results are what matter.
… Okay lets just Agree to Disagree here. This is really not a big deal.

Let's get down to the Nitty Gritty of the Matter … Marketing and $$$ ! Sony knows it hit a home run with the Z9D and what is an established way of increasing sales but to use a recognizable name in a line of products. Sony will try to increase sales by using the Z9D Model Name (and who knows maybe the next model will include the X Wide Angle Technology with the BMD Technology). It is their product they own it so they can call it whatever they want … and eyep here it comes … "but" if a product does not include certain technology (BMD specifically) which it's marketing department used to separate itself from other manufacturers does it still fall under that model name or what it more closely resembles ? Conventional Edge Light Technology is still Edge Light, Conventional FALD Technology is still FALD, and BMD FALD Technology is not conventional FALD Technology. Take out the BMD Technology it reverts back to Conventional FALD.


Okay … so all of this still gets us a cup of joe for around $2.50 … at least here in my neck of the woods.

Sony 75Z9D, Yamaha 3060, Oppo 203, Oppo 103D, LG 65E7P, Sony UBP-X800
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post #1138 of 2319 Old 08-16-2018, 05:05 PM
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I suspect you and others here have it right, TomcatTLC. Especially from the three things bluemoon noted--lower power draw, lower weight, and lower price--I figure something has to give. Whether or not the new processors can pick up the necessary slack is anybody's guess, of course.


And halos seen at event in black bars- we don’t get them on 75” z9d

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post #1139 of 2319 Old 08-16-2018, 05:26 PM
 
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… Okay lets just Agree to Disagree here. This is really not a big deal.

Let's get down to the Nitty Gritty of the Matter … Marketing and $$$ ! Sony knows it hit a home run with the Z9D and what is an established way of increasing sales but to use a recognizable name in a line of products. Sony will try to increase sales by using the Z9D Model Name (and who knows maybe the next model will include the X Wide Angle Technology with the BMD Technology). It is their product they own it so they can call it whatever they want … and eyep here it comes … "but" if a product does not include certain technology (BMD specifically) which it's marketing department used to separate itself from other manufacturers does it still fall under that model name or what it more closely resembles ? Conventional Edge Light Technology is still Edge Light, Conventional FALD Technology is still FALD, and BMD FALD Technology is not conventional FALD Technology. Take out the BMD Technology it reverts back to Conventional FALD.


Okay … so all of this still gets us a cup of joe for around $2.50 … at least here in my neck of the woods.
There is nothing that says a sony tv has to use backlight master to qualify it as a Z series model. Companies change underlying tech all the time, it's not necessary that a piece of technology must carry from one model to the successor model, it's only the end results that matter. it is FALD technology, conventional/unconventional does not have any technical definition. samsung q9 and the vizio quantum don't use anything called BMD, but their contrast ratio with dimming activated measures higher than a z9d, it's the result that counts, not how you go achieving it. If the z9f measures higher than the d and has better real world performance it's all good.
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post #1140 of 2319 Old 08-16-2018, 06:20 PM
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You work at sony? Or do you have the tv at your home to say it is a 'X940F'? It is immaterial that it does not have the BMD, that does not make it any less of a Z model, sony are doing something different from the BMD in this model as they also use X wide view with this tv, so a different backlight to go with it. The results are what matter.
Obviously you have poor understanding of what is going on here.
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