Is there any reason to believe HDMI 2.1 tvs will launch in 2019? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 100 Old 09-11-2018, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by lsorensen View Post
Well being limited to [email protected] sounds like it isn't really supporting HDMI 2.1 fully. So they can't support anything with motion properly, can't do youtube at 8k, what can they do at 8k? Sounds like their video processor isn't good enough for 8k yet.
Well first of all, the HDMI 2.1 compliance test was finalized last month, mainly, HDMI 1 port is going to be certified for HDMI 2.1,not the other ports.

First of all, Samsung said that Q900R is not certified for HDMI 2.1 at this time, mainly because the compliance test was finalized just last month. The company explained that it is seeking certification based on the HDMI1 port. The other HDMI ports will be limited to 4K video input
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post #32 of 100 Old 09-11-2018, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by 6athome View Post
Well first of all, the HDMI 2.1 compliance test was finalized last month, mainly, HDMI 1 port is going to be certified for HDMI 2.1,not the other ports.

First of all, Samsung said that Q900R is not certified for HDMI 2.1 at this time, mainly because the compliance test was finalized just last month. The company explained that it is seeking certification based on the HDMI1 port. The other HDMI ports will be limited to 4K video input

Well they said they don't have eARC, they don't have 60Hz 8k, no idea what else they don't have, so at least they are going to have to list it as "HDMI 2.1 with the following features/exceptions". They won't be able to just claim a simple "HDMI 2.1 certified" as far as I know.

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post #33 of 100 Old 09-11-2018, 11:47 AM
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This is what Samsung say in writing on there website on the Q900R range right at the bottom so make of it what you will.

"1) Based on current 8K connectivity and decoding standards. May not support future connectivity, broadcasting, and decoding standards. Upgrade for meeting future standards may require purchase of an additional device or devices.2) Will provide complimentary upgrade for HDMI 2.1 support when available. Please contact customer support for more details.3) May not support certain 3rd party standards."
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post #34 of 100 Old 09-11-2018, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by eqzitara View Post
I have been waiting for any products with HDMI 2.1 chip to release in 2018 but nothing. What do you guys think 2019 or 2020.

You'll know by the end of January 2019. I'm thinking we'll get some 2.1 in 2019, but considerably more widespread in 2020. But we should get an excellent idea of exactly which products will have 2.1 by the end of CES 2019. If they don't all leak well before then.
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post #35 of 100 Old 09-11-2018, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post
I have the SR5010.

The Dolby Vision update for your NR1606 came out a week ago. Well, at least in Canada and the US. I don't know about other regions. Make sure your NR1606 is networked. I believe it takes a while before the updates show up on their website, but you can download it through your NR1606 right now.

Dolby Vision from my Panasonic UB820 through the SR5010 works well. Beautiful picture... most of the time. I've noticed some stray raised blacks in some content (and there is a whole thread on this), but so far for the discs I own, it's only been in non-movie content. (I've seen raised blacks on menus and credits.)

So it seems there are still some growing pains in terms of Dolby Vision authoring, but when it is done right, it's beautiful.
Thanks. Downloaded the update and losded it last night (took over 30 min).

Now all I need is a UHD Bluray player...
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post #36 of 100 Old 09-12-2018, 06:03 AM
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Thanks. Downloaded the update and losded it last night (took over 30 min).

Now all I need is a UHD Bluray player...

Just remember most UHD players don't support DV. So if you want DV support, pick carefully.

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post #37 of 100 Old 09-12-2018, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by lsorensen View Post
Just remember most UHD players don't support DV. So if you want DV support, pick carefully.
And some players like the Sony X700 have a weird implementation that requires manual selection of DV on or off for titles. If you leave it on for a non-DV title, it sends a DV flag anyway, which can confuse some TVs.

The Panasonic UB820, which is probably the best 4K UHD BR player in the world, doesn't do this for 4K UHD discs, and correctly sends the DV flag (or no flag) as appropriate. However, it apparently does do this for Netflix. I can't remember if this affects Netflix on LG TVs, as I don't use the UB820 for streaming. The UB820 is not a great streaming machine overall and you may be better off just using the built-in Netflix app if you have a recent LG TV.

Hopefully this will all be sorted out when HDMI 2.1 devices launch.
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post #38 of 100 Old 09-12-2018, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post
And some players like the Sony X700 have a weird implementation that requires manual selection of DV on or off for titles. If you leave it on for a non-DV title, it sends a DV flag anyway, which can confuse some TVs.

The Panasonic UB820, which is probably the best 4K UHD BR player in the world, doesn't do this for 4K UHD discs, and correctly sends the DV flag (or no flag) as appropriate. However, it apparently does do this for Netflix. I can't remember if this affects Netflix on LG TVs, as I don't use the UB820 for streaming. The UB820 is not a great streaming machine overall and you may be better off just using the built-in Netflix app if you have a recent LG TV.

Hopefully this will all be sorted out when HDMI 2.1 devices launch.
Half my reason for getting a UHD Player is so I can get Atmos sound with the occasional VUDU stream, so I may just wait for next-gen players that properly manage DV flags and bundles Netfkix, Amazin, and VUDU.

LGs UHD player actually sounds like the best player currently if you don't care about streaming (or don't care about Atmos when streaming).

And the Chromecast Ultra can stream DV through all those apps if you don't care about media.

It's not like DV streaming through the WOLED with 5.1 sound is a total disaster, so the urgency of this upgrade is not high...
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post #39 of 100 Old 09-12-2018, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by eqzitara View Post
I have been waiting... and waiting to upgrade since I lock into a tv for 7 years so its a big deal to me. I have been waiting for any products with HDMI 2.1 chip to release in 2018 but nothing. What do you guys think 2019 or 2020.
we have industry-people in this forum flat out state we are YEARS away from HDMI 2.1

even with the recent release of 8k sets, it seems to be true

HDMI 2.1 is nowhere near the horizon.. 2020 perhaps

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post #40 of 100 Old 09-12-2018, 11:12 AM
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That's something I agree with. 8K sets released in the next few years are most likely going to be for upscaling only at larger sizes. It could be 5 years + before there needed for anything native.
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post #41 of 100 Old 09-12-2018, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Matsonia View Post
That's something I agree with. 8K sets released in the next few years are most likely going to be for upscaling only at larger sizes. It could be 5 years + before there needed for anything native.
That's almost certainly correct and if you consider an 8K display a 'better' 4K TV, the appeal is understandable (at modest premium).

What is befuddling about Samsung's new 8K offering is that it is limited to 30fps (even at 4K).

That's a showstopper for gamers, a showstopper for OTA sports fans, and a showstopper for videophiles who are unwilling tp go back to the days of pulldown (unless a native 24Hz mode is supported).

It seems as though Samsung just wants to get this out thete so they are first with something 'new' that no one else offers yet (despite the fact that ecceedingly few of these are going tp sell, at least based on the specs that have been communicated).

An 8K TV supporting a native [email protected] mode could be a compelling product (at close to price parity). It will stream 4K as well as current 4K products, will display static images like no one's business, and will make for improved desktop display use.

Future-proofing for eventual 8K content is going to be close to impossible, but if the price is right, this could beva better product than a plain 'ol 4K TV.

But it's got to support a native 4K mode with all the bells and whistles of a 4K TV including 120Hz refresh (and a modest price premium).
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post #42 of 100 Old 09-12-2018, 11:51 AM
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Where are you getting that it would be limited to 30fps at 4K? Surely it will be like the Q9FN and handle 120hz at 1440p and 4k 60hz fine.
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post #43 of 100 Old 09-12-2018, 12:21 PM
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Where are you getting that it would be limited to 30fps at 4K? Surely it will be like the Q9FN and handle 120hz at 1440p and 4k 60hz fine.
That implies that it supports a 4K mode, which is not yet clear.

At best, the Q900R will be able to write two rows with the same data in 4K mode and this will double the frame rate to 60Hz.

And we don't even know yet whether [email protected] is supported.

To offer a true [email protected] mode, a 4K TV would need a refresh rate of at least 60Hz @ 8K...

When you go from 4K to 8K, you hang twice as many pixels/transistors off of the data line. This means twice as many write cycles on a data line which has twice the capacitive load and is hence twice as slow.

So a 4K 120Hz refresh rate can pretty quickly and easily be mapped into an 8K @ 30Hz refresh rate and by supporting a double-write 4K mode, the number of write can be halved back to 2160 but tuey are still twice as slow because of all those additional pixels/capacitors.

With engineering effort, the slower data lines can be compensated for with stronger/higher-current drivers and possibly wider/lower resistance data lines, but this spuld mean a 60Hz 8K mode and clearly Samsung has taken shortcuts on the Q900R and has not yet made that engineering investment.

[email protected] / [email protected] is just stupid and reflects a product that was rushed to market a year earlly.

[email protected] / [email protected] should be considered the minimum for an 8K TV displaying video (and still represents a return to 2:3 pulldown).

[email protected] / [email protected] will be the ultimate 8K TV once enough time for the engineering effort is given. I'm guessing we won't see those TVs announced before CES 2021/22, but by then full-blown [email protected] will hopefully be stable and widespread.

So anyone purchasing an 8K TV before then is likely to upgrade again after only a year or two. And anyone buying these rushed-out Q900Rs is likely to only use it to display still images or use as a PC desktop...
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post #44 of 100 Old 09-12-2018, 12:30 PM
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I'm pretty sure it will support 4K 60hz fine. It would be backwards if it doesn't.This TV is clearly aimed at early adopters who want to enjoy upscaled 8K for a few years who will most likely upgrade again once native 8K is needed. That could be anything from 2-5 years away. Not having native 8K 60 is certainly a downside but i would imagine most who are looking to purchase this TV now are the same kind of people who will upgrade again once native 8K content is out there and are happy with 8K 60hz upscaled for the near future.

We certainly wont get 8K consoles for 2 generations which is 7+ years from now.

Alot of enthusiasts upgrade every couple of years so realistically this TV is aimed at those who want a souped up Q9FN with 8K upscaling. Anyone looking to keep this TV for Native 8K content way way down the line would probably be better off with a cheaper 4K set for now.
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post #45 of 100 Old 09-12-2018, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Matsonia View Post
I'm pretty sure it will support 4K 60hz fine. It would be backwards if it doesn't.This TV is clearly aimed at early adopters who want to enjoy upscaled 8K for a few years who will most likely upgrade again once native 8K is needed. That could be anything from 2-5 years away. Not having native 8K 60 is certainly a downside but i would imagine most who are looking to purchase this TV now are the same kind of people who will upgrade again once native 8K content is out there and are happy with 8K 60hz upscaled for the near future.

We certainly wont get 8K consoles for 2 generations which is 7+ years from now.

Alot of enthusiasts upgrade every couple of years so realistically this TV is aimed at those who want a souped up Q9FN with 8K upscaling. Anyone looking to keep this TV for Native 8K content way way down the line would probably be better off with a cheaper 4K set for now.
I agree that even a 'rushed' 4K product ought to be able to support [email protected], but we'll just need to wait for the specs to be certain.

And it's also worth pointing out that while it ought to be equally easy for [email protected] TVs to support [email protected], we've never seen such capability. While a 'twice-as-fast-at-quarter-resolution' seems like it ought to be easy, thete is aome engineering effort needed and Samsung has already stated that these 8K TVs are getting launched 6-9 months earlier than originally planned...

I will be exceedingly pleased if the Q900R supports a double-speed-4K mode since that will hopefully establish a precedent that others like LG will hopefully follow. But until it is confirmed, certainty is not warranted...
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post #46 of 100 Old 09-12-2018, 12:50 PM
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Yeah I remember when these were announced in June that a new range of "premium" 8K TV's would be releasing at IFA would be 120HZ panels. Samsung then commented that nothing was set in stone though.
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post #47 of 100 Old 09-12-2018, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
That implies that it supports a 4K mode, which is not yet clear.

At best, the Q900R will be able to write two rows with the same data in 4K mode and this will double the frame rate to 60Hz.

And we don't even know yet whether [email protected] is supported.

To offer a true [email protected] mode, a 4K TV would need a refresh rate of at least 60Hz @ 8K...

When you go from 4K to 8K, you hang twice as many pixels/transistors off of the data line. This means twice as many write cycles on a data line which has twice the capacitive load and is hence twice as slow.

So a 4K 120Hz refresh rate can pretty quickly and easily be mapped into an 8K @ 30Hz refresh rate and by supporting a double-write 4K mode, the number of write can be halved back to 2160 but tuey are still twice as slow because of all those additional pixels/capacitors.

With engineering effort, the slower data lines can be compensated for with stronger/higher-current drivers and possibly wider/lower resistance data lines, but this spuld mean a 60Hz 8K mode and clearly Samsung has taken shortcuts on the Q900R and has not yet made that engineering investment.

[email protected] / [email protected] is just stupid and reflects a product that was rushed to market a year earlly.

[email protected] / [email protected] should be considered the minimum for an 8K TV displaying video (and still represents a return to 2:3 pulldown).

[email protected] / [email protected] will be the ultimate 8K TV once enough time for the engineering effort is given. I'm guessing we won't see those TVs announced before CES 2021/22, but by then full-blown [email protected] will hopefully be stable and widespread.

So anyone purchasing an 8K TV before then is likely to upgrade again after only a year or two. And anyone buying these rushed-out Q900Rs is likely to only use it to display still images or use as a PC desktop...
Thats the kind of 8K worth waiting for me, by then most of the teething issues are sorted and the prices of 85 inch plus have dropped.

CES2019 isn't that far off, not expecting to much on 8K, as a few have jumped the gun, the odds of this this [email protected] CES2022 is possible

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post #48 of 100 Old 09-12-2018, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Bryn23 View Post
Thats the kind of 8K worth waiting for me, by then most of the teething issues are sorted and the prices of 85 inch plus have dropped.

CES2019 isn't that far off, not expecting to much on 8K, as a few have jumped the gun, the odds of this this [email protected] CES2022 is possible
I think that's right.

My gut tells me Samsung devuded that 3000/4000 cd/m2 and Brightness Wars Round II alone was not enough for 2019 so they decided to rush out the Q900R so they could have 8K resolution in addition to 3000/4000 cd/m2 to talk about.

I just hope LG is wise enough not to blindly follow Samsung's lead (as they did with curved TVs) and takes the time to deliver 8K at at least 60Hz if not 120...

What LG really ought to do is wait until they have top-emission in production so their first 8K offering delivers a big boost in brightness as well as increased resilution, but there has been no news on whether they will have TEOLEDs in 2019 and I suspect they may be nervous giving Samsung a 2-year head-start in the race to 8K...

The fact that LG's 88" WOLED delivers 800 cd/m2 with bottom-emission is actually pretty big news - it means they've succeeded to largely maintain they're current level of peak brightness on an effective 44"4K pixel size.

Top-emission will at least double if not triple WOLED peak brightness (assuming heat-dissapation and power distribution are bolstered to handle the additional power consumption), meaning they should be able to deliver an 88" 8K TEOLED with 1500-2500 cd/m2 peak.

But if that proves impossible for 2019, just demonstrating leadership by introducing a botom-emission 88" 8K WOLED with only 800cd/m2 peak but at least [email protected] or [email protected] (and also hopefully pre-certified for HDMI2.1 supporting those data rates ) would probably be enough to achieve their technology-leadership-perception goals for 2019 while buying another year to get top-emission into production...
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post #49 of 100 Old 09-12-2018, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by eqzitara View Post
I have been waiting... and waiting to upgrade since I lock into a tv for 7 years so its a big deal to me. I have been waiting for any products with HDMI 2.1 chip to release in 2018 but nothing. What do you guys think 2019 or 2020.
I get where you are coming from as well. I may be alone but products with HDMI 2.1 will determine if I go to CES. I'll wait for the first day reviews and if there aren't any real HDMI 2.1 everything gets put on hold for me and I'll recommend my clients hold off as well. And when I say HDMI 2.1 - I'm not talking marketing speak "HDMI 2.1 compatible" - like the new Samsung 8k tv. I mean FULL HDMI. "HDMI 2.1 compatible" is like saying a moped is compatible with a highway.
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post #50 of 100 Old 10-13-2018, 09:50 AM
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Given how late the final spec and verification process are for HDMI 2.1, it certainly looks like there is unlikely to be any major hardware that's 2.1 certified released this year (other than cables and the like). I do expect announcements at CES 2019 (January 2019) for 2019 consumer electronic products, as long as the receiver chips are 'done' by then, because many of the new TVs and receivers will take between 3-6 months to 'bake' after that. I don't think it's out of the question that HDMI 2.1 devices will be released mid-2019, but they will likely have the usual drawbacks of the "first wave" of a major advancement like HDMI 2.1, i.e. incomplete feature support, some glitches when using 2.1 features that are discovered by consumers and interoperability issues.

I think it's also very likely that we will see many of the HDMI 2.1 features on 2019 products but with HDMI 2.0 bandwidth - i.e. not the higher resolutions or any other features that require higher bandwidth. Technically while this could be 'backported' to 2018 HDMI devices with firmware upgrades, few companies are likely to do much in this regard, IHMO. If we're lucky, Microsoft and / or Sony may announce some features like eARC, more HDR modes, QFT etc. It's possible Sony, Samsung and LG could also do some firmware updates for their high end line, but I'm not expecting it for my 2017 LG. I think any major CE manufacturer that pretends HDMI 2.1 doesn't exist or is not a big deal in 2019 (assuming at least some other makers do support these features, even in an incomplete way) will be at a disadvantage for a portion of the high-end market.

2020 is likely to be the year you see a fully baked HDMI 2.1 ecosystem.
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post #51 of 100 Old 10-14-2018, 12:27 PM
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post #52 of 100 Old 10-14-2018, 12:35 PM
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OK, on the link they talk about HDCP 2.3.
Is this something that we are going to have to also deal with?
Most current "advanced" equipment are HDCP 2.2 compatible, which has taken years to become reliable, and they still cause handshake issues.

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post #53 of 100 Old 10-16-2018, 04:55 AM
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This was posted in 8K is now. So HDMI 2.1 in 2019? YES!

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Reviews of the Samsung 8K set were released today and it seems adamant there is going to be a 2.1 connect box next year.

" Samsung plan to replace the existing box with one that includes HDMI 2.1, but what the company hasn’t decided yet is whether that upgrade will be free or not."

"However, Samsung assures me that it will start shipping Q900Rs in the new year with updated One Connect boxes equipped with a single HDMI 2.1 port. At which point people who buy Q900Rs now will be able to replace their One Connect boxes with the new HDMI 2.1 versions"
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post #54 of 100 Old 10-16-2018, 06:26 AM
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This was posted in 8K is now. So HDMI 2.1 in 2019? YES!

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Reviews of the Samsung 8K set were released today and it seems adamant there is going to be a 2.1 connect box next year.

" Samsung plan to replace the existing box with one that includes HDMI 2.1, but what the company hasn’t decided yet is whether that upgrade will be free or not."

"However, Samsung assures me that it will start shipping Q900Rs in the new year with updated One Connect boxes equipped with a single HDMI 2.1 port. At which point people who buy Q900Rs now will be able to replace their One Connect boxes with the new HDMI 2.1 versions"

Who pays for that replacement?

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post #55 of 100 Old 10-19-2018, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by lsorensen View Post
Who pays for that replacement?
It all depends on how you look at it,if it's,i spent 15,000.00 and they should give it to me,or I spent 15,000.00,so what,I need to spend 300.00 for a connect box?
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post #56 of 100 Old 10-19-2018, 08:22 AM
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It all depends on how you look at it,if it's,i spent 15,000.00 and they should give it to me,or I spent 15,000.00,so what,I need to spend 300.00 for a connect box?

True. Of course when you put it that way, it makes it sound totally unreasonable to buy at all either way. That's a silly amount of money for a TV.

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post #57 of 100 Old 10-19-2018, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by lsorensen View Post
True. Of course when you put it that way, it makes it sound totally unreasonable to buy at all either way. That's a silly amount of money for a TV.
Well that's for the 85".

The 75" will be 7,000 and the 65" will be less than that (I don't think they announced the price on the 65 yet).
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post #58 of 100 Old 10-19-2018, 11:27 AM
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Well that's for the 85".

The 75" will be 7,000 and the 65" will be less than that (I don't think they announced the price on the 65 yet).

but only the 85" is available in the US, so the remarks about $15k stand for now.

There is no perfect display, quit looking for faults and enjoy

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post #59 of 100 Old 10-19-2018, 11:37 AM
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I like to be on the bleeding edge but I think I'll hold off for a bit. I just read an article they're expecting to ship over 1 million 8K TVs in 2020. I can wait for the dust to settle. Personally I'm very disappointed that 4K is not as readily available as it should be by now. I have Dish Network and when I compare the regular programs to my HD antenna the latter is a clear an obvious winner. Most programming looks too soft from Dish. I imagine I could pay for a 4K movie but they're already getting around $2000 a year from me for service and I expect better quality transmissions. This is the reason people shouldn't be spending big bucks on sets until there are appropriate and actual plentiful 4K material available. That said if you're just going to be using for your Home Theater then why not because you can watch on a 4K player but most satellite and cable programming is not 4K. You would be lucky if the regular channels are 720p.
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post #60 of 100 Old 10-19-2018, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by kbrod1 View Post
I like to be on the bleeding edge but I think I'll hold off for a bit. I just read an article they're expecting to ship over 1 million 8K TVs in 2020. I can wait for the dust to settle. Personally I'm very disappointed that 4K is not as readily available as it should be by now. I have Dish Network and when I compare the regular programs to my HD antenna the latter is a clear an obvious winner. Most programming looks too soft from Dish. I imagine I could pay for a 4K movie but they're already getting around $2000 a year from me for service and I expect better quality transmissions. This is the reason people shouldn't be spending big bucks on sets until there are appropriate and actual plentiful 4K material available. That said if you're just going to be using for your Home Theater then why not because you can watch on a 4K player but most satellite and cable programming is not 4K. You would be lucky if the regular channels are 720p.

Well if cable/satellite doesn't care to give us 1080, why would they care to give us 4k? Clearly they think we don't care one bit about picture quality.

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