2017 OLEDLifetime only 5000 hours with OLED Light 100 - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 197 Old 12-11-2018, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
If we assume that LG increased red subpixel size by 64% and used all of that increased efficiency for additional headroom to be used for burn-in compensation, the math works out as follows:

2018 red subpixel is 164% of 2017 red subpixel area so same luminance can be driven by 1/1.64 or 61% current density.

The headroom that took 13 weeks to be exhausted by the CNN Logo at OLED Light 100 would now take 1/61% or 164% that long, meaning 21.3 weeks (3000 hours). From there, if you want to take some threshold like 5% degredation to represent 'visible burn-in', the 1.67 weeks it took in 2017 increases to 2.73 weeks or 383 hours, which means 24 weeks / 3360 hours total before CNN logo burn-in becomes noticable at OLED Light 100.

For the 'talking head / newscaster' shadow area on [email protected]/m2, the 44 weeks it took to develop 2.5% damage would increase to over 72 weeks or 10,000 hours.

All of this is my long-winded way of saying your math is correct .
Ok...wish we had an example of wearing from wide screen movies to examine. Have to wait some more me guesses...

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post #182 of 197 Old 12-11-2018, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by JonW747 View Post
I use a mix of ISF night (OLED light 45), ISF day (75), and Game (95) plus HDR, so, clearly my 5000 hrs is not the same as a TV at 100 all the time either. Maybe when I get up around 8000 hours or so....
Mine is calibrated and my numbers are within a few points of what you've listed... although my set is only 10 months old with about 1850 hours to date. Mine only sees 100 with of course HDR and it definitely doesn't run HDR discs/streams 100% of the time... I'd guess somewhere between 50-60% with the rest being SDR content.

Do people really turn their sets up to perma 100? Why not just buy an LCD? LOL
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post #183 of 197 Old 12-11-2018, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Kenbar View Post
Ok...wish we had an example of wearing from wide screen movies to examine. Have to wait some more me guesses...
No examples? Doesn't exist?



I'd love to see it though. I have a hard time believing that black (pixels off) bars is going to create over time a noticeable difference over the "worn" pixels in between. Sorry... just don't buy it.

Disclaimer: I'm sure it could happen after a gazillion hours... and I'll have upgraded by then.

I feel like I belong in an elite group of OLED owners who doesn't feel the paranoia some here at AVS try to create... about degraded pixels or burn in.

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post #184 of 197 Old 12-11-2018, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by TravisPNW View Post
Mine is calibrated and my numbers are within a few points of what you've listed... although my set is only 10 months old with about 1850 hours to date. Mine only sees 100 with of course HDR and it definitely doesn't run HDR discs/streams 100% of the time... I'd guess somewhere between 50-60% with the rest being SDR content.

Do people really turn their sets up to perma 100? Why not just buy an LCD? LOL

I believe it was fafrd who pointed out that running HDR at 100 isn't the same as running SDR at 100. In fact, we have limited tweaking ability with HDR because of how it reserves brightness for the specular highlights and whatnot, and as such we've had to do stuff like enable dynamic contrast to get a brightness boost in video games.


I imagine there are some set it and forget it people who buy OLEDs and leave the TV on Vivid and crank the brightness (to get that same "picture quality" as seen in the store), but they're probably not reading this forum let alone this thread.


I don't want to discount the problems people have had, but we also need to take in to account that only time will prove how these TV's will age under non-extreme conditions. Accelerated aging can certainly be a legitimate method to predict life-span, but it's also possible there are factors not being taken in to account.


Mostly it's important even in a technical thread like this which will be read by non-technical people to try to defuse the inevitable "sky is falling" knee jerk reactions. I've still seen nothing to make me think I won't get 8 years out of my OLED (as my primary TV) like I did out of my Plasma, unless something just breaks.
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Last edited by JonW747; 12-12-2018 at 08:42 AM. Reason: spelling
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post #185 of 197 Old 12-11-2018, 06:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisPNW View Post
No examples? Doesn't exist?



I'd love to see it though. I have a hard time believing that black (pixels off) bars is going to create over time a noticeable difference over the "worn" pixels in between. Sorry... just don't buy it.

Disclaimer: I'm sure it could happen after a gazillion hours... and I'll have upgraded by then.

I feel like I belong in an elite group of OLED owners who doesn't feel the paranoia some here at AVS try to create... about degraded pixels or burn in.
Yes, there are no examples - they don't exist.

The problem is that, even at OLED Light 100 / 380 cd/m2 peak, truly random content does not age the center of the screen by any appreciable amount (well under 1%, within the noise of measurement) even after 5000 hours (or after 8000 hours at 170cd/m2 peak / OLED Light ~45).

Most AVSers are going to take longer to watch 5000 or 8000 hours of letterbox movies than they could possibly sustain interest in this thread .

So we may never see examples of letterbox burn-in (static logo burn is at least 100 times easier).
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post #186 of 197 Old 12-11-2018, 07:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JonW747 View Post
I believe it was fafrd who pointed out that running HDR at 100 isn't the same as running SDR at 100. In fact, we have limited tweaking ability with HDR because of how it reserves brightness for the specular highlights and whatnot, and as such we've had to do stuff like enable dynamic contract to get a brightness boost in video games.


I imagine there are some set it and forget it people who buy OLEDs and leave the TV on Vivid and crank the brightness (to get that same "picture quality" as seen in the store), but they're probably not reading this forum let alone this thread.


I don't want to discount the problems people have had, but we also need to take in to account that only time will prove how these TV's will age under non-extreme conditions. Accelerated aging can certainly be a legitimate method to predict life-span, but it's also possible there are factors not being taken in to account.


Mostly it's important even in a technical thread like this which will be read by non-technical people to try to defuse the inevitable "sky is falling" knee reactions. I've still seen nothing to make me think I won't get 8 years out of my OLED (as my primary TV) like I did out of my Plasma, unless something just breaks.
The sky is definitely not falling (as you can see from this post I added to the OLED Technology sticky thread earlier today: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post57254564).
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post #187 of 197 Old 12-11-2018, 10:58 PM
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I have 5000 hours on my EF9500. No discernible picture degradation. Photos from my iPhone. Source is Apple TV.
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post #188 of 197 Old 12-12-2018, 08:44 AM
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Are...are you my wife? We literally had this exact conversation a week ago.
Hate to disappoint you, but I'm a middle aged white guy.

You're lucky you can have a conversation like that with your wife. If I tried to explain this to my wife, she would put 0 effort towards trying to understand it. Electronics are things I buy that give her an excuse to spend as much or more on something she wants.
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post #189 of 197 Old 12-12-2018, 10:46 AM
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I have 5000 hours on my EF9500. No discernible picture degradation. Photos from my iPhone. Source is Apple TV.
And that's still not what this topic is about.
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post #190 of 197 Old 12-12-2018, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dubusduck View Post
I have 5000 hours on my EF9500. No discernible picture degradation. Photos from my iPhone. Source is Apple TV.
And that's still not what this topic is about.
What is this thread about?

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post #191 of 197 Old 12-12-2018, 12:31 PM
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What is this thread about?
The loss of luminance over time.
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post #192 of 197 Old 12-12-2018, 12:51 PM
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And that's still not what this topic is about.

No it's not, but it's an important tangent as we discuss how the data Rtings has collected may or may not foretell the future performance of our units or well maybe a unit on the floor at BestBuy for 3+ years.
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post #193 of 197 Old 12-16-2018, 08:23 PM
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Yes, there are no examples - they don't exist.

So we may never see examples of letterbox burn-in (static logo burn is at least 100 times easier).
There is one example of this kind of burn-in that i have recently come across, that may require your worthy attention .

In the thread ''2018 sony a8f owners '' one of the members by the name of Sram1337 have reported this issue.( post #1496 of 1547, page 50 )

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post57225382

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post #194 of 197 Old 12-16-2018, 08:47 PM
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There is one example of this kind of burn-in that i have recently come across, that may require your worthy attention .

In the thread ''2018 sony a8f owners '' one of the members by the name of Sram1337 have reported this issue.( post #1496 of 1547, page 50 )

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post57225382
Sounds like an issue with the main board. For some reason it's not running the comp cycles from what the poster say's. So...not sure if there is any relevant info to be gained here regarding screen wear from wide screen movies.

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post #195 of 197 Old 12-17-2018, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shareknow View Post
There is one example of this kind of burn-in that i have recently come across, that may require your worthy attention .

In the thread ''2018 sony a8f owners '' one of the members by the name of Sram1337 have reported this issue.( post #1496 of 1547, page 50 )

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post57225382
Widescreen content will quickly cause temporary IR of the central image area. This should be automatically cleared up by the comp cycles but if there is a defect with the TV so that the comp cycles are not running, that would explain this result.

Temporary IR and permanent differential-aging-based burn-in apoear exactly the same.

Temporary IR develops very quickly (hours) while permanent burn-in debelops very slowly (hundreds or thousands of hours).

Temporary IR can be effectively erased (compensated for) through comp cycles while burn-in, once it becomes apparent, cannot be erased or compensated for in any way.
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post #196 of 197 Old 12-17-2018, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Widescreen content will quickly cause temporary IR of the central image area. This should be automatically cleared up by the comp cycles but if there is a defect with the TV so that the comp cycles are not running, that would explain this result.

Temporary IR and permanent differential-aging-based burn-in apoear exactly the same.

Temporary IR develops very quickly (hours) while permanent burn-in debelops very slowly (hundreds or thousands of hours).

Temporary IR can be effectively erased (compensated for) through comp cycles while burn-in, once it becomes apparent, cannot be erased or compensated for in any way.
Are these Comp cycles same as Panel refresh.

There is nothing mentioned in the manual of Sony A8F about a comp cycle.

But the manual does state this '' If the same image is displayed repeatedly or for long periods of time, image retention may occur. To reduce image retention, we recommend that you turn off the TV normally by pressing the power button on the remote control or the TV.

Panel refresh automatically runs after the TV has been used for long periods of time to reduce image retention. Panel refresh starts after the TV is turned off and takes about one hour to complete. A white line may be displayed on the screen during the Panel refresh. This is not a malfunction of the TV.''

No mention of the word Comp cycle at all.

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post #197 of 197 Old 12-17-2018, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Are these Comp cycles same as Panel refresh.

There is nothing mentioned in the manual of Sony A8F about a comp cycle.

But the manual does state this '' If the same image is displayed repeatedly or for long periods of time, image retention may occur. To reduce image retention, we recommend that you turn off the TV normally by pressing the power button on the remote control or the TV.

Panel refresh automatically runs after the TV has been used for long periods of time to reduce image retention. Panel refresh starts after the TV is turned off and takes about one hour to complete. A white line may be displayed on the screen during the Panel refresh. This is not a malfunction of the TV.''

No mention of the word Comp cycle at all.
I've never owned a Sony so can't comment on their terminology, but LG has changed their terminology a few times and Sony's 'Panel Refresh' sounds like it is almost certanly the compensation for short-term image retention I was talking about...
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