2017 OLEDLifetime only 5000 hours with OLED Light 100 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 197 Old 10-21-2018, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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2017 OLEDLifetime only 5000 hours with OLED Light 100

The most recent results of the rtings.com 2017 OLED Burn-in tests are concerning.

The burned-in areas associated with static logos have been well-discussed, but this is the first evidence of WOLED wear from random content: https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/real...d-burn-in-test

Week 38 corresponds to 5000 hours of random content in the center of the screen, and the fact that the CNN Max test with OLED Light at 100 shows a darkened central area means that 2017 WOLED peak output will start to degrade after only 5000 hours when OLED Light is at max (especially red).
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post #2 of 197 Old 10-21-2018, 02:01 PM
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Is this out of line with any previous predictions?

I always expected that first signs of BI at 2k hours would mean a dead set by 4k-5k. This has been well supported by the evidence we got.
If anything, it's a good sign that all but CNN sets are still doing well. The FIFA set will probably burn down through the 2nd year to a similar condition, though.
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post #3 of 197 Old 10-21-2018, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by AnalogHD View Post
Is this out of line with any previous predictions?

I always expected that first signs of BI at 2k hours would mean a dead set by 4k-5k. This has been well supported by the evidence we got.
If anything, it's a good sign that all but CNN sets are still doing well. The FIFA set will probably burn down through the 2nd year to a similar condition, though.

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. I can see how you might have predicted uniform dimming of the rest of the set based on the results from the static logo.



However, we are also seeing a different phenomenon here. Portions of the screen that were showing random content (assuming it truly was random), are at a clearly different brightness. This suggests there is variance in the aging rates in different portions of the screen even. I don't know how that could have been extrapolated from the static logo results.


On the other hand, I think it is also possible that the content wasn't really "random". It seems entirely plausible that the center of the frame might contain bright objects more frequently than the periphery.
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post #4 of 197 Old 10-21-2018, 07:13 PM
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That's not a lot of hours. I already have 2000+ hours on my < 1yo B7. I run OLED light at 65 for SDR, 70 for HDR. Hmm.
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post #5 of 197 Old 10-21-2018, 07:22 PM
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So what does this mean in REAL WORLD terms...

5000 hours of static images...

No one just watches 5000 of static images.

Add the vast majority of additional hours of watching movies, regular TV, etc.

Even a conservative estimate of 4 to 1 would give the TV a lifespan of 20,000 hours... or approx 8+ years.

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post #6 of 197 Old 10-21-2018, 09:53 PM
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These tests are so dumb. Let's take a Ferrari, park it and rev the engine to max and see how long it lasts, only stopping to refuel the fuel tank everytime it runs out..

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post #7 of 197 Old 10-21-2018, 10:32 PM
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This has nothing to do about BI. It's about the color red decaying rapidly. IOW, at 5000 hours red will no longer look like red. The higher the OLED light, the quicker red decays. The question is how long calibration can maintain red looking like red, before it fades to pink. Just like early plasmas, red was the first color to decay, and nothing could be done about it. At least that's the jest I get from it.

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post #8 of 197 Old 10-21-2018, 11:06 PM
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looks like something was in the middle of the screen to burn in a person?
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post #9 of 197 Old 10-22-2018, 01:03 AM
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Why would red fade faster than other colors. Aren't all of the sub-pixels simply white OLEDs behind color filters?
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post #10 of 197 Old 10-22-2018, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post
Why would red fade faster than other colors. Aren't all of the sub-pixels simply white OLEDs behind color filters?
All of the subpixels are three layers - two red+green, and one blue OLED - placed behind color filters.



The layers extend over the whole screen, which makes them easy to deposit, but none of them is actually white.




Red burns in first, apparently, because it needs to be driven the hardest. Human eyes are the most sensitive to green, and there's very little blue light at proper color temperature. Red is both intense and abundant in real images.





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Originally Posted by convexmacrolabs View Post
On the other hand, I think it is also possible that the content wasn't really "random". It seems entirely plausible that the center of the frame might contain bright objects more frequently than the periphery.
Right, I misread the OP.
And yes, this seems to be the case - no content is truly random. All is non-random, and it stands to reason that CNN would have a certain pattern.
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post #11 of 197 Old 10-22-2018, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
This has nothing to do about BI. It's about the color red decaying rapidly. IOW, at 5000 hours red will no longer look like red. The higher the OLED light, the quicker red decays. The question is how long calibration can maintain red looking like red, before it fades to pink. Just like early plasmas, red was the first color to decay, and nothing could be done about it. At least that's the jest I get from it.
Yes, this is about aging, not burn-in.

And yes (from the other post), the content is not truly random or the wear would have been uniform, but that is also not the point.

The point is that this result indicates that with OLED Light at Max, your WOLED TV will start to dim after 5000 hours of whatever you display on it (other than a picture of a night sky ).

Aging is supposed to be roughly linear in brightness / light output, so if you get 5000 hours with OLED Light at 100 and ~380 cd/m2 of peak output, then you probably get 10,000 hours with peak output levels of ~190cd/m2 and perhaps 15,000 hours if you dial OLED Light back under 30 for ~120 cd/m2.

LGs current spec is for a lifetime of 15,000 hours and so yes, this result may not be too surprising - it is just the first objective proof that the lifetime spec is dialed back to 120 cd/m2 and is not valid at default settings.

Red wears out faster because it is one of the smallest subpixels and gets driven harder than green, blue, or white. Because the white OLED layer (blue-yellow-blue) under the red subpixels are generating more lumens than all pf their other-colored subpixels, those areas are degrading/aging/losing efficiency the fastest and either need to be driven even harder or put out a dimmer image.

LGD increased the size of the red subpixel in the 2018 WOLEDs, so lifetime may improve a bit for red so that all colors are aging at more similar rates.

But the only real message is if you like to crank your WOLED TV with high OLED Light levels, you will get far less than the stated 15,000 hours out of it...
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post #12 of 197 Old 10-22-2018, 09:30 AM
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or: How I learned to stop worrying and love the OLED.

We're all doooooooomed!

Oh well. I guess I'll just keep using mine as I have been for the last 4500 hours. No sense freaking out now.
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post #13 of 197 Old 10-22-2018, 10:04 AM
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"with OLED Light 100"

WTF does that mean for the average user?
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post #14 of 197 Old 10-22-2018, 11:01 AM
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So someone who runs olight 100 should reliably expect a good 2 1/2 years out of them before seeing issues arise from uneven wearing. 5 years at olight 50. 7 1/2 years at olight 25. Most here (who have read the BI threads) run olight 35ish...so the average member should be able to get 6ish years before seeing problems. Right? Not bad. Gives them a reason to up grade to 8K. Where they will want to be.

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post #15 of 197 Old 10-22-2018, 11:31 AM
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I run mine at 40 for SDR, but HDR of course is running at 100, and I watch a lot of it (UHD blurays / Netflix / Amazon etc). So this is a little concerning.
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post #16 of 197 Old 10-22-2018, 11:42 AM
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Well, BB better be ready to exchange a lot of tv's for those that purchased extended warranties. Most people use OOTB setting. Bright room has an OLED light/contrast setting of 100/85. If people use Standard, that's 80/95, but DC is set to medium, which boosts the bright areas on the screen. Oddly enough, my Ef9500 has over 4000 hours, and I use bright room setting all the time, since I watch a lot of sports in a bright room. When I display slides at night, to check for issues, every slide is uniform. I also went into the SM on both my tv's and changed the default time from 4 hours to 1 hour for the 10 minute comp cycle. Compared to others, i probably have run that cycle twice as many times as others with the same amount of hours, and perhaps that's why both my screens are so uniform.
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post #17 of 197 Old 10-22-2018, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post
Well, BB better be ready to exchange a lot of tv's for those that purchased extended warranties. Most people use OOTB setting. Bright room has an OLED light/contrast setting of 100/85. If people use Standard, that's 80/95, but DC is set to medium, which boosts the bright areas on the screen. Oddly enough, my Ef9500 has over 4000 hours, and I use bright room setting all the time, since I watch a lot of sports in a bright room. When I display slides at night, to check for issues, every slide is uniform. I also went into the SM on both my tv's and changed the default time from 4 hours to 1 hour for the 10 minute comp cycle. Compared to others, i probably have run that cycle twice as many times as others with the same amount of hours, and perhaps that's why both my screens are so uniform.
Sounds like you might get another year plus out of it. By then the LG Oled 8K models should be dropping in price. Perfect in a way. But sad I know, cause you will loose the 3D.

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post #18 of 197 Old 10-22-2018, 12:31 PM
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These tests are so dumb. Let's take a Ferrari, park it and rev the engine to max and see how long it lasts, only stopping to refuel the fuel tank everytime it runs out..
Agreed LOL...

1500+ hours on my 65B7... of that I'd say 70% is UHD movies, 15% is UHD gaming and 15% is random (no news stations) Comcast programming some of which is logoed... along with Amazon prime full screen TV shows.

No burn in to be seen and I've ran color tests as recently as 2 days ago.

I feel like I'm in the clear... as long as I don't get this sudden urge to start watching CNN for 18 hours a day on my OLED rather than going out and buying an LCD for $239.99 that would be better suited for the task.

As far as OLED light goes mine is calibrated and I don't get anywhere near 100 setting 100% of the time. I think the only one that uses 100 is DV? The others are around 49 as I recall.
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post #19 of 197 Old 10-22-2018, 12:35 PM
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Agreed LOL...

1500+ hours on my 65B7... of that I'd say 70% is UHD movies, 15% is UHD gaming and 15% is random (no news stations) Comcast programming some of which is logoed... along with Amazon prime full screen TV shows.

No burn in to be seen and I've ran color tests as recently as 2 days ago.

I feel like I'm in the clear... as long as I don't get this sudden urge to start watching CNN for 18 hours a day on my OLED rather than going out and buying an LCD for $239.99 that would be better suited for the task.

As far as OLED light goes mine is calibrated and I don't get anywhere near 100 setting 100% of the time. I think the only one that uses 100 is DV? The others are around 49 as I recall.

All HDR is oled light 100. HDR10 is oled light 100. DV is oled light '50', but actually this is still oled light 100. When you increase oled light in dv, you aren't increasing peak output, youre changing mid tone gamma.


And in addition to that, HDR modes are run at contrast 100. If we all set our TVs to oled light 25 and only watch sdr, we might be alright lol.


I've only had an oled for a month and my stress and anxiety levels are through the roof with this thing lol.
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post #20 of 197 Old 10-22-2018, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
All HDR is oled light 100. HDR10 is oled light 100. DV is oled light '50', but actually this is still oled light 100. When you increase oled light in dv, you aren't increasing peak output, youre changing mid tone gamma.


And in addition to that, HDR modes are run at contrast 100. If we all set our TVs to oled light 25 and only watch sdr, we might be alright lol.


I've only had an oled for a month and my stress and anxiety levels are through the roof with this thing lol.
I knew one of them was 100... I don't stress enough about TV setting though to have them all set in stone inside my head. My panel was calibrated by one of the best in the business (Chad B) 6 months ago and I've left it alone and enjoyed the hell out of it for both UHD movies and gaming.

If your stress and anxiety is through the roof I'd say you've been paying too much attention to BI tests and not enough time enjoying your panel. I have NO visible BI after 1500 hours of use in 8 months. FIFTEEN HUNDRED HOURS.

LOL.... As I've said before unless you watch CNN all day you really don't have anything to worry about. That brings up a bigger question though.. who would buy an OLED to watch CNN? You buy a cheap LCD for that.

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post #21 of 197 Old 10-22-2018, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post
This has nothing to do about BI. It's about the color red decaying rapidly. IOW, at 5000 hours red will no longer look like red. The higher the OLED light, the quicker red decays. The question is how long calibration can maintain red looking like red, before it fades to pink. Just like early plasmas, red was the first color to decay, and nothing could be done about it. At least that's the jest I get from it.

Sticking with LCD would be my suggestion. That's would I would do. Instead of stressing over a decaying red that might occur 3 years down the road you can stress over poor viewing angles and light bleed.


Good luck finding that perfect TV tech though!
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post #22 of 197 Old 10-22-2018, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Reflex-Arc View Post
We're all doooooooomed!

Oh well. I guess I'll just keep using mine as I have been for the last 4500 hours. No sense freaking out now.
LOL yep. I'll keep using mine as I have for the last 1500 hours.

Threads like this are why I haven't been here in 5 months. Been too busy enjoying my panel to come back to read thread after thread of complaining and BI fears.

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post #23 of 197 Old 10-23-2018, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by New24K View Post
So what does this mean in REAL WORLD terms...

5000 hours of static images...

No one just watches 5000 of static images.

Add the vast majority of additional hours of watching movies, regular TV, etc.

Even a conservative estimate of 4 to 1 would give the TV a lifespan of 20,000 hours... or approx 8+ years.
Right? Whats the problem??? Ill *probably* have upgraded by then. LOL.

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These tests are so dumb. Let's take a Ferrari, park it and rev the engine to max and see how long it lasts, only stopping to refuel the fuel tank everytime it runs out..
I kind of agree. I get that RTINGS wants to test burn-in and thats OK but how they are doing it is ridiculous. Great analogy with the Ferrari! Just rev the crap out of it and put 20 years of wear and tear on the car in 6 months.... then claim Ferraris arent good cars and the engines are unreliable.

Its stupid. Meanwhile, back to my exceptionally great PQ.

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Agreed LOL...

1500+ hours on my 65B7... of that I'd say 70% is UHD movies, 15% is UHD gaming and 15% is random (no news stations) Comcast programming some of which is logoed... along with Amazon prime full screen TV shows.

No burn in to be seen and I've ran color tests as recently as 2 days ago.

I feel like I'm in the clear... as long as I don't get this sudden urge to start watching CNN for 18 hours a day on my OLED rather than going out and buying an LCD for $239.99 that would be better suited for the task.

As far as OLED light goes mine is calibrated and I don't get anywhere near 100 setting 100% of the time. I think the only one that uses 100 is DV? The others are around 49 as I recall.
Another great & sensible post. Watching CNN all day is indicative of a LOT of other *issues* that one might have. Id get that looked at! LOL. Even so, most people are in the clear aand will STAY in the clear. Period. I agree with whomever said that they hardly come here anymore due to so many "the end of the world" burn-in posts. Ugh. Blah blah blah. Go buy an LCD then. Let us "idiots" just watch our burned-in OLEDs and suffer.

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post #24 of 197 Old 10-23-2018, 05:38 AM
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Another great & sensible post. Watching CNN all day is indicative of a LOT of other *issues* that one might have. Id get that looked at! LOL. Even so, most people are in the clear aand will STAY in the clear. Period. I agree with whomever said that they hardly come here anymore due to so many "the end of the world" burn-in posts. Ugh. Blah blah blah. Go buy an LCD then. Let us "idiots" just watch our burned-in OLEDs and suffer.
That would be me. I was here religiously the first couple months of ownership but got tired of reading the same old same old over and over and over and over and over. What you've said is exactly how I feel about it. If someone can't handle the very remote chance their panel might get BI a long time down the road then they are better off saving their money and buying an LCD. Given my choice of programming though I am taking a more sensible approach and not worrying about it AT ALL. The only reason I ran the color tests the other day was because I saw the TV had hit 1500 hours and was like "well, lets just check and see." As I suspected, all the color slides looked PERFECT.

As you said upthread... even if my panel was guaranteed to be fully burned out by 20,000 hours I still wouldn't care because I'm 120% sure it will have been replaced by then.

Enjoy the OLEDs folks... I'll be back sometime. Not exactly sure when though. Red Dead Redemption 2 comes out in 48 hours and that game looks simply gorgeous on the OLED. I figure it will have me tied up till sometime in 2020.

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post #25 of 197 Old 10-23-2018, 06:12 AM
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That would be me. I was here religiously the first couple months of ownership but got tired of reading the same old same old over and over and over and over and over. What you've said is exactly how I feel about it. If someone can't handle the very remote chance their panel might get BI a long time down the road then they are better off saving their money and buying an LCD. Given my choice of programming though I am taking a more sensible approach and not worrying about it AT ALL. The only reason I ran the color tests the other day was because I saw the TV had hit 1500 hours and was like "well, lets just check and see." As I suspected, all the color slides looked PERFECT.

As you said upthread... even if my panel was guaranteed to be fully burned out by 20,000 hours I still wouldn't care because I'm 120% sure it will have been replaced by then.

Enjoy the OLEDs folks... I'll be back sometime. Not exactly sure when though. Red Dead Redemption 2 comes out in 48 hours and that game looks simply gorgeous on the OLED. I figure it will have me tied up till sometime in 2020.
Ahh-freegin-men! It just sucks that so many threads have to get derailed or mucked up by the stupid BI thing. It just keeps coming up over and over and over. Its like We get it, a *few* people got burn-in and while that does suck it certainly doesnt make it comon as some claim it is.

Enjoy your set & the new games. Ill do the same!!!!!
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post #26 of 197 Old 10-23-2018, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
Well, BB better be ready to exchange a lot of tv's for those that purchased extended warranties.
They'll test the TV and say it's working fine. Good luck convincing them that red looking a little washed out requires a TV replacement.
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post #27 of 197 Old 10-23-2018, 07:02 AM
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5000 hrs = 2500 movies. So each movie will end up costing $1-3, depending on the particular model. Not a bad investment IMO.
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post #28 of 197 Old 10-23-2018, 07:11 AM
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5000 hrs = 2500 movies. So each movie will end up costing $1-3, depending on the particular model. Not a bad investment IMO.
Throwing away a $4000 to $5000 tv every 2 years is not a good investment. Once people find out OLED starts to fail at 5000 hours, it will be the end of OLED.

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post #29 of 197 Old 10-23-2018, 07:14 AM
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So someone who runs olight 100 should reliably expect a good 2 1/2 years out of them before seeing issues arise from uneven wearing. 5 years at olight 50. 7 1/2 years at olight 25. Most here (who have read the BI threads) run olight 35ish...so the average member should be able to get 6ish years before seeing problems. Right? Not bad. Gives them a reason to up grade to 8K. Where they will want to be.

If 25 is half of 50, shouldn't it last twice as long, so 10 years not 7.5 years?


And I doubt it is that linear a scale.

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post #30 of 197 Old 10-23-2018, 08:04 AM
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The most recent results of the rtings.com 2017 OLED Burn-in tests are concerning.

The burned-in areas associated with static logos have been well-discussed, but this is the first evidence of WOLED wear from random content: https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/real...d-burn-in-test

Week 38 corresponds to 5000 hours of random content in the center of the screen, and the fact that the CNN Max test with OLED Light at 100 shows a darkened central area means that 2017 WOLED peak output will start to degrade after only 5000 hours when OLED Light is at max (especially red).
Are you referring to NBC Live central "pinkish" area? Wouldn't that indicate more wear for colors *other* than red? I mean, if I look at the gray screen for week 38 I see that pinkish area, which I guess means there's more red than there should be. But that would actually mean that there's less green and blue? Or do I have this completely wrong?


Whatever the case (but I'm curious to understand the above), yes, I guess nobody would be happy if their TV was displaying a 50% gray field that way.

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