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post #91 of 226 Old 11-05-2018, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by JLaud25 View Post
Don't recommend oled unless you have at least some native hdr 4k content, that is needed to make these displays perform. for just 1080p viewing and lower resolution, get a 50 inches 1080p plasma or a high end 1080p lcd. 1080p still looks best if you are playing it on a ~50" 1080p tv.

I am actually amazed what an A1E + Oppo can do with a DVD. I expected a pixelated mess and instead get very nice picture quality. I have no idea how they managed that. 1080 content looks great.


Sure 4k content looks amazing, but 1080 and even lower content still looks very good.


In other words, you are completely wrong.

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post #92 of 226 Old 11-05-2018, 07:57 AM
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I guess different people see things differently or have different preferences. I moved from a 60" Panasonic plasma to a 65" C8, to my eye 1080p looks much better on the OLED than it did on my plasma. And I really liked my plasma. I only got rid of it because of a change in cabinetry. Now I'm glad I did.
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post #93 of 226 Old 11-05-2018, 08:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lsorensen View Post
I am actually amazed what an A1E + Oppo can do with a DVD. I expected a pixelated mess and instead get very nice picture quality. I have no idea how they managed that. 1080 content looks great.


Sure 4k content looks amazing, but 1080 and even lower content still looks very good.


In other words, you are completely wrong.
The point isn't that upscaling cannot make 1080p look 'very good' on a 4k display, it can, the point is that upscaling no matter how good cannot compare pixel to pixel with a 1080p resolution content on the same native resolution tv, end of story. upscaling doesn't add any detail, it has to work with the same pixels and video data available in the content and scale it to a larger grid of pixels. hundred percent a 1080p movie looks better ('tighter') on a 1080p high end display than on the 65" panasonic ez950 oled that i own.
i advise you an experiment, to place a 50 inch 1080p plasma and a 55/ 65 4k oled next to each other, use a hdmi splitter to feed both tv's a 1080p signal and analyze the results from up close.

and i stand by my original statement too, if you dont have access to any native 4k hdr content (which quite a few people around the world still don't), dont get an oled, the money is wasted.
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post #94 of 226 Old 11-05-2018, 10:18 AM
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These people professionaly do those tests. They noticed that 2017 WOLED peak output will start to degrade after only 5000 hours when OLED Light is at max (especially red).
Displaying red for 5000 straight hours is not a true test. When watching tv, each red pixel is not constantly on. There is the red, green and blue pixel. So lets say red is on for 1 second, followed by blue, and then green, Over the course of 1 minute, red is on 20 seconds or 1/3 of the time. Over the course of 1 hour, red is on 20 minutes for each pixel. So in order for red to be on for 5000 hours for each pixel, that would take 15,000 hours of normal viewing. And guess what, 15,000 hours is the half life of the tv. Now in real world viewing, red is actually on the least. If you watch a lot of sports, green may be on more often due to the green grass, and red may rarely be on. But since as you say red degrades the fastest, in that scenario, it may take 30,000 hours for red to degrade.

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post #95 of 226 Old 11-05-2018, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by JLaud25 View Post
The point isn't that upscaling cannot make 1080p look 'very good' on a 4k display, it can, the point is that upscaling no matter how good cannot compare pixel to pixel with a 1080p resolution content on the same native resolution tv, end of story. upscaling doesn't add any detail, it has to work with the same pixels and video data available in the content and scale it to a larger grid of pixels. hundred percent a 1080p movie looks better ('tighter') on a 1080p high end display than on the 65" panasonic ez950 oled that i own.
i advise you an experiment, to place a 50 inch 1080p plasma and a 55/ 65 4k oled next to each other, use a hdmi splitter to feed both tv's a 1080p signal and analyze the results from up close.

and i stand by my original statement too, if you dont have access to any native 4k hdr content (which quite a few people around the world still don't), dont get an oled, the money is wasted.
Quality of content makes such a big difference. I stream about 98% of what I watch, Netflix, Amazon, google play, etc. I would consider these some of the best streaming services available, and I am always blown away at how much better a bluray looks when I watch one. 9 feet from a 65" and I have seen good 1080p look just as crisp as any of the 4k stuff I am getting on Netflix. What I really like currently is that 4k streaming is a nice improvement over HD streaming, to the point that 4k stream seem similar as high quality 1080 to my eye. I really should look into a 4k HDR disc player.

To your 50 vs 65 suggestion, of course a 50" screen will look crisper than a 65" screen, this isnt an upscaling problem this is a physics problem. How about two 65" side by side, 1080 native and 4k upscaled, this makes it apples to apples... Havent done it, I cant speak for the particular results, but i have gone back and forth from room to room with a calibrated ST60 and a FZ950 with out of the box settings on a 1080p stream and the content didnt look appreciably different. Given the added contrast of the OLED I hope once calibrated the depth of image has a bit of extra pop over the Plasma, but as I said previously in this thread the better plasmas really do hold up for 1080 content.
Suggesting OLED is a waste of money for people with only 1080p content may be true only if you have a select few plasmas, if the person spending money is only looking at it from a picture quality standpoint. Moving from some beater TV and only having 1080 content, the OLED will be a very nice upgrade. Wanting new tech, or a slim bezel, or bright room performance, or whatever can make the money spent worthwhile.
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post #96 of 226 Old 11-05-2018, 10:49 AM
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It's nice to see Pioneer holding up this well, but let's not forget how expensive those TVs were.

With HDR content available now, I can't really see the point in comparing SDR performance like this, or wanting to go back to plasma. Maybe if they could have released those high lumen plasmas, and upgraded the input boards to HDR-compatible like they used to on the professional plasmas, where you could swap out the input boards.

On high contrast displays, if you aren't using HDR input data you're basically hamstringing the potential of the display by compressing the dynamic range / contrast in the input (SDR) instead of letting the display be the limiting factor. (HDR).

Pioneer plasmas weren't cheap, and given that OLEDs have perfect blacks, HDR10, higher nits, 10-bit panels, 4K resolution, and comparable prices to Pios I don't see why anyone would be nostalgic. I used to own a plasma and loved it, but it wasn't perfect and its specs positively suck compared to modern OLEDs.

I also don't think plasmas can be considered anything but sample-and-hold, but that's another discussion.

The use of temporal dithering to achieve 8-bit gradations in plasmas due to them being like 2-4 bit native displays, is about as pertinent as DLPs being binary (1-bit).

They still hold the overall frame in the "on" position for the entire duration of the frame (16ms at 60hz), it's just that DLPs split that time between colours, which causes more problems than it solves since the segments are all still showing data from the same timestamp so later flashes are more and more out of date during any given frame.

If the displays had significant blackout time between frames, that would improve motion, but I think the superiority of plasma motion performance is mostly due to the fact that the pixels can transition near-instantly from one colour to another. Compared to OLED and Plasma and DLP, and LCDs can still take up to 10ms to go from full-black to full-white, even with a 1ms G2G panel.

In this sense plasma and OLED and DLP are far superior to LCD and always will be, at least unless the LCD has significantly higher native framerate and/or black frame insertion activated to reduce motion blur. Some IPS panels for VR headsets are getting improvements now, and there are 240hz 1080p LCD screens but I'm skeptical how accurate their colours can possibly be, in other words how much overdrive (ghosting) there is. And those are TN panels too.

I enjoy the motion on my 144hz LCD G-Sync monitor much better than my 60hz DLP, even without BFI enabled. We can't yet use ULMB and G-Sync at the same time, since that's tricky to implement and would likely result in some kind of pumping artifacts similar to a dynamic iris or lamp dimming. Only far worse since frame render times can be effectively random from one frame to the next.

Why would you consider plasmas sample-and-hold? They are a strobed display, they go all the way to black between fields... there's minimal hold. I mean, it's not scanned line-by-line like on CRT, I guess? Still produces far better motion than OLED or LCD. Biggest issue was difference in phosphor decay between the red, green, and blue phosphors.
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post #97 of 226 Old 11-05-2018, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by JLaud25 View Post
The point isn't that upscaling cannot make 1080p look 'very good' on a 4k display, it can, the point is that upscaling no matter how good cannot compare pixel to pixel with a 1080p resolution content on the same native resolution tv, end of story. upscaling doesn't add any detail, it has to work with the same pixels and video data available in the content and scale it to a larger grid of pixels. hundred percent a 1080p movie looks better ('tighter') on a 1080p high end display than on the 65" panasonic ez950 oled that i own.
i advise you an experiment, to place a 50 inch 1080p plasma and a 55/ 65 4k oled next to each other, use a hdmi splitter to feed both tv's a 1080p signal and analyze the results from up close.

and i stand by my original statement too, if you dont have access to any native 4k hdr content (which quite a few people around the world still don't), dont get an oled, the money is wasted.

I too used to think that was the case. Apparently upscaling can actually look better than the original content. It isn't adding detail but it can still detect edges and such and make them cleaner and sharper than they were.


As for plasma, well a lot of people liked the slightly blurred look of plasma. I liked the perfect pixels of a DLP projector. It's a matter of taste.
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post #98 of 226 Old 11-05-2018, 11:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lsorensen View Post
I too used to think that was the case. Apparently upscaling can actually look better than the original content. It isn't adding detail but it can still detect edges and such and make them cleaner and sharper than they were.


As for plasma, well a lot of people liked the slightly blurred look of plasma. I liked the perfect pixels of a DLP projector. It's a matter of taste.
Upscaling works just like artificial edge enhancement and sharpness being applied to a source and if you stand 1 or 2 way feet away from the display, you will notice ringing artifacts around the edges of objects because of it. a 1080p source on a good 1080p display avoids such processing and looks more artifact free, i have seen and compared it. And i dont know what upscalers you use and what your eyes saw, i have used sony's SoC(x1 xtreme), a marvel qdeo 4k upscaler, panasonic's SoC(hcx) and the upscaler built into my BD player for upscaling, the first two upscalers mentioned are pretty capable. but i still find the 1080p on a 1080p plasma gives a better, cleaner look than an artificially enhanced image.

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post #99 of 226 Old 11-05-2018, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by lsorensen View Post
I too used to think that was the case. Apparently upscaling can actually look better than the original content. It isn't adding detail but it can still detect edges and such and make them cleaner and sharper than they were.


As for plasma, well a lot of people liked the slightly blurred look of plasma. I liked the perfect pixels of a DLP projector. It's a matter of taste.
+1 on the DLP Projector...Hoping that R&D continues and that TI can up it's 4K game to compete with LCOS.
As far as adding detail. The Darbee really enhances most DTV content. We have one on the plasma and on our DLP projector.
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post #100 of 226 Old 11-05-2018, 04:42 PM
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and i stand by my original statement too, if you dont have access to any native 4k hdr content (which quite a few people around the world still don't), dont get an oled, the money is wasted.
With all due respect, that's an absurd statement. It might be a waste of money for you (or for others who share your idiosyncrasies), but you don't speak for everybody, and people have different tastes and preferences. You might as well say, "if the chef at your local Chinese restaurant didn't train in Shanghai, you're wasting your money eating Chinese food."

I really like my local Chinese restaurant and so far 99% of my viewing on my OLED has been upscaled 1080p content and I couldn't be happier with my purchase. To each his own, bro.
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post #101 of 226 Old 11-05-2018, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by JLaud25 View Post
The point isn't that upscaling cannot make 1080p look 'very good' on a 4k display, it can, the point is that upscaling no matter how good cannot compare pixel to pixel with a 1080p resolution content on the same native resolution tv, end of story. upscaling doesn't add any detail, it has to work with the same pixels and video data available in the content and scale it to a larger grid of pixels. hundred percent a 1080p movie looks better ('tighter') on a 1080p high end display than on the 65" panasonic ez950 oled that i own.
i advise you an experiment, to place a 50 inch 1080p plasma and a 55/ 65 4k oled next to each other, use a hdmi splitter to feed both tv's a 1080p signal and analyze the results from up close.

and i stand by my original statement too, if you dont have access to any native 4k hdr content (which quite a few people around the world still don't), dont get an oled, the money is wasted.
You can stand by it all ya want to.


You are wrong. 70% of what i look at is DVD and 480i and it still beats my 60VT60. I have one UHD disc to my name.
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post #102 of 226 Old 11-05-2018, 05:26 PM
 
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With all due respect, that's an absurd statement. It might be a waste of money for you (or for others who share your idiosyncrasies), but you don't speak for everybody, and people have different tastes and preferences. You might as well say, "if the chef at your local Chinese restaurant didn't train in Shanghai, you're wasting your money eating Chinese food."

I really like my local Chinese restaurant and so far 99% of my viewing on my OLED has been upscaled 1080p content and I couldn't be happier with my purchase. To each his own, bro.
it may sound absurd to you but it's not. spending thousands of bucks on something is worthwhile when you are using it to its potential, oled (or any 4k hdr tv's) potential is wasted if you never run any 4k hdr content and all that you're doing is 1080p and lower resolution sdr content on it. in that case, just get a good 1080p tv (i would still recommend someone a used 1080p plasma if he has no intention of running 4k/hdr content). A similar analogy would be...getting a pair of horn loaded speakers but no intention of playing them loud, then why buy them, just get a decent front loaded speaker.
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post #103 of 226 Old 11-05-2018, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by JLaud25 View Post
it may sound absurd to you but it's not. spending thousands of bucks on something is worthwhile when you are using it to its potential, oled (or any 4k hdr tv's) potential is wasted if you never run any 4k hdr content and all that you're doing is 1080p and lower resolution sdr content on it. in that case, just get a good 1080p tv (i would still recommend someone a used 1080p plasma if he has no intention of running 4k/hdr content). A similar analogy would be...getting a pair of horn loaded speakers but no intention of playing them loud, then why buy them, just get a decent front loaded speaker.
+1 on this analysis. With 99% of the content available in <4K resolution, it just did not make sense (to me) to spend thousands on a "state of the art" 4K OLED display. By the time there is a lot of HDR 4K content out there (and they have figured out a consistent distribution paradigm), the 4K displays will be a more mature and less expensive product.
However, this is AVS. Rationality and cost/benefit analysis do not apply in this alternate reality. That's one of the reasons I like it here.
To each his own. Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.
My $.02
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post #104 of 226 Old 11-05-2018, 05:39 PM
 
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You can stand by it all ya want to.


You are wrong. 70% of what i look at is DVD and 480i and it still beats my 60VT60. I have one UHD disc to my name.
480i looks better to you on a 4k oled? which is this magical oled that you use, i would like to see it.
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post #105 of 226 Old 11-05-2018, 05:48 PM
 
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+1 on this analysis. With 99% of the content available in <4K resolution, it just did not make sense (to me) to spend thousands on a "state of the art" 4K OLED display. By the time there is a lot of HDR 4K content out there (and they have figured out a consistent distribution paradigm), the 4K displays will be a more mature and less expensive product.
However, this is AVS. Rationality and cost/benefit analysis do not apply in this alternate reality. That's one of the reasons I like it here.
To each his own. Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.
My $.02
i would never advocate a piece of tech just for the sake of it. If you have a paid subscription for a 4k hdr streaming service like netflix, amazon prime ..and/or..a 4k blu ray player, then sure get an oled. But if you dont have either of those sources and have no intention to get them, then you are better off with a 1080p tv. my parents few months back had a regza that crapped out and couldn't get serviced, i told them to get another 1080p lcd in place of it , because i know a much pricier 4k oled would be wasted in their case, their source is just 1080i cable television.
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post #106 of 226 Old 11-05-2018, 05:50 PM
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My old B6 and the AF8 crushed blacks out of the box. I’m sure it could’ve been improved upon with proper calibration, but you shouldn’t have to do that to nail something that even a basic LCD can do at default movie mode settings.

Crushing blacks out of the box was never a problem on my old plasmas. I’m not saying that makes them better, I’m just saying that it has always been something that I have found rather annoying.




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post #107 of 226 Old 11-05-2018, 06:01 PM
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480i looks better to you on a 4k oled? which is this magical oled that you use, i would like to see it.
It's in my sig. 65" A1E.

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post #108 of 226 Old 11-05-2018, 06:24 PM
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Funny this thread should come up just now, as I am about to pull the trigger on a 65" C8 to replace my 60" Samsung F8500. I had 3 plasmas before the 8500, all plasma's. Pros and cons, all I've been reading. My 8500 still impresses me so part of me is saying wait. But the woman said get an oled for xmas during black Friday.....who am I to say no to that? lol.
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post #109 of 226 Old 11-05-2018, 06:30 PM
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But if you dont have either of those sources and have no intention to get them, then you are better off with a 1080p tv.
You have no basis to state what is better for someone else. That is categorically an absurd proposition, one that is without basis in reason. And I'm done with this, as you are incapable of understanding what any rational person should understand.

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With 99% of the content available in <4K resolution, it just did not make sense (to me) to spend thousands on a "state of the art" 4K OLED display.
Thank you for the "to me" in this statement. That is a rational decision for an individual to make for himself or herself.

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However, this is AVS. Rationality and cost/benefit analysis do not apply in this alternate reality. That's one of the reasons I like it here.
To each his own. Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.
Yes indeed, beauty -- and the cost/benefit analysis -- can be different for each person. We're not robots, and we're not computers, and nobody can say that my preferences are "wrong." Most people (who aren't blinded by arrogance) understand that.

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You have no basis to state what is better for someone else. That is categorically an absurd proposition, one that is without basis in reason. And I'm done with this, as you are incapable of understanding what any rational person should understand.
a rational person is one who understands a simple cost/benefit analysis. i have always believed that if you're investing in expensive gear, either video or audio, just be sure before making the purchase that you're willing to drive it to its potential, if not, then you could rather buy cheaper gear and save yourself money that could be used elsewhere. of course , it's your money and preference and you are the judge on how you choose to spend it. but what i make is a completely rational argument based on value.
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post #111 of 226 Old 11-05-2018, 06:44 PM
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a rational person is one who understands a simple cost/benefit analysis. i have always believed that if you're investing in expensive gear, either video or audio, just be sure before making the purchase that you're willing to drive it to its potential, if not, then you could rather buy cheaper gear and save yourself money that could be used elsewhere. of course , it's your money and preference and you are the judge on how you choose to spend it. but what i make is a completely rational argument based on value.
You cannot make a definitive cost/benefit analysis for someone else (particularly people you don't know). You can offer advice and recommendations, and suggest what you would do if a given choice was presented to you. But in the end, you don't have a basis to accurately asses the real costs (including opportunity costs) for another person and the benefits for another person.

And as to the recommendation to buy a used plasma, it is not irrational for a person to determine they don't want to buy a used TV that runs hot and eats a lot of energy -- just to pick a few factors that might enter into another person's cost/benefit determination.
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You cannot make a definitive cost/benefit analysis for someone else (particularly people you don't know). You can offer advice and recommendations, and suggest what you would do if a given choice was presented to you. But in the end, you don't have a basis to accurately asses the real costs (including opportunity costs) for another person and the benefits for another person.

And as to the recommendation to buy a used plasma, it is not irrational for a person to determine they don't want to buy a used TV that runs hot and eats a lot of energy -- just to pick a few factors that might enter into another person's cost/benefit determination.
what does this have to do with knowing people? it's simple logic and can be applied to anyone. buying a 4000 usd oled and just watching cnn and the weather channel on it all day long is money not wisely spent, you could do with a cheaper 1080p lcd.
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post #113 of 226 Old 11-05-2018, 07:12 PM
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what does this have to do with knowing people?
It's rather obvious, or it should be. Doesn't anybody take Economics 101 anymore? Among other things, you have no idea of the total wealth of other people, how they value money, how much they are concerned about spending extra money for a higher end TV.

You also have no idea how they might evaluate the alternative technologies and what is important to them. For example, with respect to your recommendation of a used plasma, you have no idea how important energy savings and the heat put out by a plasma would be to someone else. You cannot judge other peoples concerns about buying used equipment. And as to your alternative suggestion of an LCD, you have no idea how the advantages and disadvantages of that particular technology (e.g., off-axis viewing) might be evaluated by a person in their particular environment with their particular lifestyle.

You also don't know what other people see with their own eyes. You can only say what YOU see with your eyes, and what you prefer. Some people think that some 1080p sources upscaled on a 4k TV set look better to them than on a 1080p set. Whether they are wrong or right is to a large extent irrelevant. What matters is what THEY prefer, or what THEY see.

There are other factors as well, but you (should) get the point.

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Originally Posted by JLaud25 View Post
buying a 4000 usd oled and just watching cnn and the weather channel on it all day long is money not wisely spent, you could do with a cheaper 1080p lcd.
Ah yes, the last tactic of a desperate man. - changing the facts. We're not talking about watching only CNN and the weather channel all day long. Nice try.
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post #114 of 226 Old 11-05-2018, 07:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by smitty View Post
It's rather obvious, or it should be. Doesn't anybody take Economics 101 anymore? Among other things, you have no idea of the total wealth of other people, how they value money, how much they are concerned about spending extra money for a higher end TV.
To make a general argument based on value, i dont need to know somebody's wealth. similar analogies..buying a 800HP car when you're not going to drive that fast , getting a speaker that plays to 125db when you're not going to turn the volume over 80db in your room..in both cases you could settle with a cheaper alternative. and i did take up economics, a 4000 usd 4k oled for merely watching upscaled stuff would be anything but a prudent investment.

and i dont care how people spend/waste their money, that's not my business, i see people who spend 500 usd on a pair of speaker cables and think they're more clever.

anyway, i made the point number of times now, i wont repeat myself again, too bad if you fail to get it. the thread needs to be back on track comparing plasma and oled.

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post #115 of 226 Old 11-05-2018, 08:10 PM
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Still own a 55 VT50 and a 60 ZT60... love them both.
Our nearly six year old 55VT50 is still going strong. And if it crapped out tomorrow I'd try to find last year's Sony Z9D (pretty scarce now) or get the newer Z9F before getting an OLED panel.

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Originally Posted by JLaud25 View Post
To make a general argument based on value, i don't need to know somebody's wealth.
That statement right there illustrates the problem. You can indeed make a "general argument," and, in fact, your "general argument" might be quite reasonable. What you can't do is assess the value for a specific person whose values and preferences you don't know. Get it? Got it? Good.
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Our nearly six year old 55VT50 is still going strong. And if it crapped out tomorrow I'd try to find last year's Sony Z9D (pretty scarce now) or get the newer Z9F before getting an OLED panel.
It would be a mistake to go to the Z9D from your VT50. The black levels of the Z9D are about equal to the VT30 or slightly worse. The Z9F's black levels are MUCH worse. The Z9F isn't performing like a premium display.

I'm not 100% pleased with my OLED but the only upgrade path from a high-quality plasma is OLED, if we're being realistic.

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Funny this thread should come up just now, as I am about to pull the trigger on a 65" C8 to replace my 60" Samsung F8500. I had 3 plasmas before the 8500, all plasma's. Pros and cons, all I've been reading. My 8500 still impresses me so part of me is saying wait. But the woman said get an oled for xmas during black Friday.....who am I to say no to that? lol.
I would have never sold my 60vt60 but someone offered me a never out of the box 65" A1E in Aug of 2017 for about 2500 off the price it was new at the time. I will say the Oled is better than the VT60 was but my perfect 5020 that DNice bought was right up there with 1080p.

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Originally Posted by JLaud25 View Post
what does this have to do with knowing people? it's simple logic and can be applied to anyone. buying a 4000 usd oled and just watching cnn and the weather channel on it all day long is money not wisely spent, you could do with a cheaper 1080p lcd.
Sometimes i enjoy eye candy and with my cable it gets a darn good pic mick. OTA- HD is also insane. And them rare times i watch BD's it really shines. And i even just bought a 2nd UHD so little by little i will keep adding more UHD disc. But 70% of my viewing is old TV shows from the 60's and 70's on DVD.
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Originally Posted by smitty View Post
it's rather obvious, or it should be. Doesn't anybody take economics 101 anymore? Among other things, you have no idea of the total wealth of other people, how they value money, how much they are concerned about spending extra money for a higher end tv.

You also have no idea how they might evaluate the alternative technologies and what is important to them. For example, with respect to your recommendation of a used plasma, you have no idea how important energy savings and the heat put out by a plasma would be to someone else. You cannot judge other peoples concerns about buying used equipment. And as to your alternative suggestion of an lcd, you have no idea how the advantages and disadvantages of that particular technology (e.g., off-axis viewing) might be evaluated by a person in their particular environment with their particular lifestyle.

You also don't know what other people see with their own eyes. You can only say what you see with your eyes, and what you prefer. Some people think that some 1080p sources upscaled on a 4k tv set look better to them than on a 1080p set. Whether they are wrong or right is to a large extent irrelevant. What matters is what they prefer, or what they see.

There are other factors as well, but you (should) get the point.



Ah yes, the last tactic of a desperate man. - changing the facts. :d we're not talking about watching only cnn and the weather channel all day long. Nice try.
i agree.

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