Prediction: LG will announce full 48Gbps HDMI 2.1 on 2019 OLED TV lineup at CES - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 159 Old 12-29-2018, 02:14 PM
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Hope that happens but unless there are AVRs with HDMI 2.1 and to a lesser extent, UHD Blu Ray players announced for around the same shipping timeframes, it won't be as meaningful.

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post #62 of 159 Old 12-29-2018, 03:58 PM
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I think a small number of 8K TVs will get HDMI 2.1 but it will come with a premium price. I think LG will still offer some HDMI 2.1 features through HDMI 2.0b, eARC, VRR etc. for their 4K TVs. LG prove me wrong!

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post #63 of 159 Old 12-30-2018, 05:04 AM
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I predict even when HDMI 2.1 TVs are released with a full 48G bandwidth, resolution and refresh rate support will be so limited, you will get 8K 30, 8K 60 or nothing.

source: current TVs still don't support common gaming resolutions like 1440 P 120 even when it's well within the current 600 MHz limit.

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post #64 of 159 Old 12-30-2018, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Interpolation View Post
I predict even when HDMI 2.1 TVs are released with a full 48G bandwidth, resolution and refresh rate support will be so limited, you will get 8K 30, 8K 60 or nothing.

source: current TVs still don't support common gaming resolutions like 1440 P 120 even when it's well within the current 600 MHz limit.
I agree, at first, although 4k 120 seems like a no brainer. Also, more and more TVs are supporting 1440p 120
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post #65 of 159 Old 12-30-2018, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Callsign_Vega View Post
I surely hope NVIDIA's 2H 2019 7nm GPU supports HDMI 2.1 48 GBps or it will be epic fail.
I'm crossing fingers we'll see that on GTX/RTX 2060, whenever it will arrive.
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post #66 of 159 Old 12-30-2018, 09:58 AM
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Ya I don't think it will be on the 60 if it's not on the 70 or 80.. But you never know..
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I'm crossing fingers we'll see that on GTX/RTX 2060, whenever it will arrive.
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post #67 of 159 Old 12-30-2018, 02:19 PM
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Ya I don't think it will be on the 60 if it's not on the 70 or 80.. But you never know.
Well, it wouldn't be the first time Nvidia introduces new stuff on the x60 series. GTX 980 and 970 did not have HEVC decoding, 960 and 950 did.

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post #68 of 159 Old 12-30-2018, 02:44 PM
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We can hope..
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Well, it wouldn't be the first time Nvidia introduces new stuff on the x60 series. GTX 980 and 970 did not have HEVC decoding, 960 and 950 did.
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post #69 of 159 Old 01-02-2019, 10:27 PM - Thread Starter
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We'll need to wait for full specs to be announced by LG at CES to be certain the Alpha 9 Gen 2 supports full 48Gbps, but the press release they issued today by LG makes it seem pretty likely that my prognostication was correct: https://markets.businessinsider.com/...tvs-1027840407

"And through the inclusion of HDMI 2.1 ports, all 2019 OLED TVs and select NanoCell TVs with ThinQ AI will support high frame rate (HFR). The result is smoother and clearer motion at 120 frames per second for better rendering of fast-action content such as sports and action movies."
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post #70 of 159 Old 01-03-2019, 12:45 AM
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Nice one, fafrd. Although I didn't think it likely, given Vincent's video, your post did give me a small ray of hope that it would happen and here we are.

We'll find out the exact details soon, but you definitely predicted the 2.1 part!
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post #71 of 159 Old 01-03-2019, 01:21 AM
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Will it only benefit sports which are recorded and streamed at 120fps or would it improve motion processing of the 720p and 1080i broadcasts we have now and for the foreseeable future?

If it improves things like BFI, then HDMI 2.1 becomes way more than a "nice to have" feature that a lot of people see it as being.
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post #72 of 159 Old 01-03-2019, 07:38 AM
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post #73 of 159 Old 01-03-2019, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
Will it only benefit sports which are recorded and streamed at 120fps or would it improve motion processing of the 720p and 1080i broadcasts we have now and for the foreseeable future?

If it improves things like BFI, then HDMI 2.1 becomes way more than a "nice to have" feature that a lot of people see it as being.
LG unveils 2019 4K OLED TVs
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Originally Posted by flatpanelshd
LG explains that the upgraded ”second-generation Alpha 9” video processor has improved algorithms for color and motion.

This includes an upgraded black frame insertion system called ’OLED Motion Pro’ that now operates at 100/120Hz (compared to 50/60Hz last year) and with shorter black frame cycle (25% vs. 50% last year). LG says the system eliminates flicker and maintains brightness, which were FlatpanelsHD’s two main concerns with the BFI system in the 2018 LG OLED models. Other improvements include a separate ”smooth gradation” picture setting that no longer reduces resolution.
https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1546474656
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post #74 of 159 Old 01-03-2019, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
LG unveils 2019 4K OLED TVs
It sounds like the new BFI mode is a result of the new new processor and not anything to do with HDMI 2.1?
If so, why haven't Sony and Panasonic done this?

Also, does a "shorter black frame cycle" mean improved motion resolution or does it only reduce flicker? Because it sounds like they are trying reduce the brightness hit. I don't see how they can reduce flicker, increase brightness (compared to current 60hz BFI), and decrease eye tracking motion blur all at the same time. Something has to give. I was under the impression that the "real" 120hz BFI would require 240hz OLED panels, and these are the same exact 120hz OLED panels we already have.

Actually, now that I think about it, 25% BFI will result in worse motion resolution compared to 50% BFI, though obviously less flicker and more preserved brightness. We need more black frames, not less, to increase motion clarity. Could current OLED support something like 75% black frame cycle?

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post #75 of 159 Old 01-03-2019, 09:58 AM
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It sounds like the new BFI mode is a result of the new new processor and not anything to do with HDMI 2.1?
If so, why haven't Sony and Panasonic done this?

Also, does a "shorter black frame cycle" mean improved motion resolution or does it only reduce flicker? Because it sounds like they are trying reduce the brightness hit. I don't see how they can reduce flicker, increase brightness (compared to current 60hz BFI), and decrease eye tracking motion blur all at the same time. Something has to give. I was under the impression that the "real" 120hz BFI would require 240hz OLED panels, and these are the same exact 120hz OLED panels we already have.

Actually, now that I think about it, 25% BFI will result in worse motion resolution compared to 50% BFI, though obviously less flicker and more preserved brightness. We need more black frames, not less, to increase motion clarity. Could current OLED support something like 75% black frame cycle?
I suspect they changed the control electronics in the panel to allow VRR and the better BFI. So the OLED part of the panel itself may not be changing, but that doesn't mean the electronics driving it weren't improved. I did expect LG would have to be first with VRR since they make the panels and would have to make any required changes to it first.

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post #76 of 159 Old 01-03-2019, 10:15 AM
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I suspect they changed the control electronics in the panel to allow VRR and the better BFI. So the OLED part of the panel itself may not be changing, but that doesn't mean the electronics driving it weren't improved. I did expect LG would have to be first with VRR since they make the panels and would have to make any required changes to it first.
Do you think this new method would result in higher than 600-700 lines of motion resolution? If so, wow. I may have to return my A9F.

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post #77 of 159 Old 01-03-2019, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Micolash View Post
Do you think this new method would result in higher than 600-700 lines of motion resolution? If so, wow. I may have to return my A9F.
No idea how effective it will be.

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post #78 of 159 Old 01-03-2019, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Micolash View Post
It sounds like the new BFI mode is a result of the new new processor and not anything to do with HDMI 2.1?
- The BFI ''improvement'' has to do with the new processor.
- 2019 LG OLED models will support HDMI 2.1 VRR (Variable Refresh Rate). It is an adaptive frame rate system that matches frame rate between console and TV in real-time for smoother gaming performance with lower lag.
- for HFR motion you need a HDMI 2.1 cable so you also need a TV in which you can put that cable.
https://www.techradar.com/news/hfr-e...u-need-to-know
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Originally Posted by Micolash
If so, why haven't Sony and Panasonic done this?
It is the LG OLED 2019 line up, we will hear of at least some of Sony and Panasonic OLED TV 2019 line up stuff soon (CES 2019 starts 08 januari).
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post #79 of 159 Old 01-03-2019, 11:10 AM
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If fafrd prediction is correct, Sony and Panasonic and all the other OLED TV manufacturers might well end up stuck with HDMI 2.0 for 2019. I don't think they have the in-house resources to develop the necessary chipset. Hoping to be wrong, as more competition is always good for us consumers.


Edit: Sony might actually have done it, if they planned for it in time. I doubt Panasonic.

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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
We'll need to wait for full specs to be announced by LG at CES to be certain the Alpha 9 Gen 2 supports full 48Gbps, but the press release they issued today by LG makes it seem pretty likely that my prognostication was correct: https://markets.businessinsider.com/...tvs-1027840407

"And through the inclusion of HDMI 2.1 ports, all 2019 OLED TVs and select NanoCell TVs with ThinQ AI will support high frame rate (HFR). The result is smoother and clearer motion at 120 frames per second for better rendering of fast-action content such as sports and action movies."

It appears that the scuttlebutt and you were right...

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I think HDMI 2.1 is supposed to have the new copy protection, HDCP 2.3. I wonder what this will mess up for devices with HDCP 2.2? In theory HDCP 2.3 should be compatible with 2.2 for 4k, For 8k you probably need 2.3 in the source device, but correct me if I am wrong.

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post #82 of 159 Old 01-03-2019, 11:39 AM
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I think HDMI 2.1 is supposed to have the new copy protection, HDCP 2.3. I wonder what this will mess up for devices with HDCP 2.2? In theory HDCP 2.3 should be compatible with 2.2 for 4k, For 8k you probably need 2.3 in the source device, but correct me if I am wrong.
Sony already put HDCP 2.3 in the A9F and Z9F, and I haven't seen any reports of it causing issues so far. As for what is required, that is up to the source device since it is the one that decides whether to allow sending the signal or not. It can refuse to send 8k signals if the receiver isn't 2.3 if it wants to, but the TV can't say it will only accept signals from HDCP 2.3 sources. That would be dumb of course. If someone makes an 8k capable source device that only has HDCP 2.2, then that would be fine, if they can get it licensed by whatever media control group applies. Not that I have heard of any 8k media existing so far.
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post #83 of 159 Old 01-03-2019, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
We'll need to wait for full specs to be announced by LG at CES to be certain the Alpha 9 Gen 2 supports full 48Gbps, but the press release they issued today by LG makes it seem pretty likely that my prognostication was correct: https://markets.businessinsider.com/...tvs-1027840407

"And through the inclusion of HDMI 2.1 ports, all 2019 OLED TVs and select NanoCell TVs with ThinQ AI will support high frame rate (HFR). The result is smoother and clearer motion at 120 frames per second for better rendering of fast-action content such as sports and action movies."
Well well well. Looks like you were right! Well played fafrd. If you want to borrow me gal for your next prediction, feel free. You deserve it.



Beyond that I can only say...no 3D. So who cares. 2016 3D Oled's still reign supreme

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post #84 of 159 Old 01-03-2019, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lsorensen View Post
I suspect they changed the control electronics in the panel to allow VRR and the better BFI. So the OLED part of the panel itself may not be changing, but that doesn't mean the electronics driving it weren't improved. I did expect LG would have to be first with VRR since they make the panels and would have to make any required changes to it first.
The wording is vague enough that we're going to need to wait for first owners to report on what actual options are supported to have any real insight into how the 'OLED Motion Pro' has been implemented, but it almost-certainly represents a significant upgrade to the backpkane.

I can concieve of three obvious options:

1/ Double native backplane refresh speed from 120Hz to 240Hz. A backplane that is fast-enough to refresh [email protected] will also be able to refresh [email protected], so if the 8K WOLED supports 120Hz refresh, this might be the 'easiest' option.

A backplane with 240Hz native refresh rate would support 50% BFI @ 120Hz and would also support 25% BFI @ 60Hz, but cannot support 25% BFI @ 120Hz, so we'll need to wait to see what LG's reference to BFI at '120Hz and with shorter black frame cycle (25% vs. 50% of last year)' translates to to understand whether this 'simple' solution could be involved or not.

2/ Addition of a seperate 'blanking' control to the backplane. This involves the addition of another transistor within each subpixel, so it is a more significant (and more expemsive, in terms of additional yield loss) solution, but this option would support 25% BFI @ 120Hz and does not require 'speeding up' the backplane to a native refresh rate of 240Hz, so if 25% BFI @ 120Hz is supprted but the 8K WOLED only support 60fps (and not a full [email protected] refresh), this may be how it's been done.

3/ A backplane that supports [email protected] native refresh rate is capable of writing one row of pixels every 1/259,200th of a second (259.1kHz row write speed), and if the backplane has been modified to support row-write speeds that are twice as fast (518.4kHz), this write speed would be needed to support [email protected] refresh but can also be used to support 25% BFI @ 120Hz with 4K content if it is designed to support a refresh architecture more sophisticated than the simple 'full-frame-refresh described in option 1.

By alternating between the write of one line of the new frame and writing to black (blanking) another line of the old frame, 120Hz BFI of 25%, 50%, 75%, or theoretically almost any % could be supported.

This would also be the easiest way to support VRR, since a framerate of any integer divisor of 518.4kHz could be supported.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this is what LG has implemented: increase line write speed to 518.4KHz and use it in a way that is not possible for scanning-backlight LED/LCD (line-granurality blanking rather than backlight segment-granularity blanking).

In terms of the earlier posts on 25% BFI, it is correct that 25% BFI is less effective than 50% BFI (50% more persistance and persistance-based motion blur) but the hope and expectation is that any BFI solution supporting 25% BFI also supports 75% BFI, and 75% BFI has half the perisitance of 50% BFI.

The light loss associated with 75% BFI will be twice that of 50% BFI (so 1/4 brighess instead of 1/2 brightness) but I'm also hoping that LG will eventually figure out that BFI means they can use the full HDR peak brightness levels for SDR content without any impact on aging/lifetime.

1ms @ 600 cd/m2 ages (and generates heat) exactly the same as 4ms @ 150cd/m2, so there is absolutely no reason for engagement of BFI when viewing SDR content to result in and noticable decrease in brightness.

If LG has implemented 'OLED Motion Pro' in a manner that supports 75% BFI without sacrificing brighness, the result will be a decrease in persistance from 8.3ms to 2.1ms at brightness levels of at least 150cd/m2 peak and possibly as high as 250cd/m2 peak (1/4 of 1000cd/m2). 2.1ms is getting close to plasma-like persistance levels of 1.7ms...

We'll need to wait for all the specs to be fully announced and tested, but it's looking to me as though 2019 may prove to be the year LG finally had the confidence to step to the front and start leading the industry...
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post #85 of 159 Old 01-03-2019, 02:21 PM
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I'm crossing fingers we'll see that on GTX/RTX 2060, whenever it will arrive.
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Ya I don't think it will be on the 60 if it's not on the 70 or 80.. But you never know..

As I mentioned in the "LG to unveil" thread, it may be prudent to also keep an eye out for AMD's CES keynote on the 8 9th since its rumored that they will be revealing some new high performance computing hardware including at least one GPU.

That last point is key because it was in fact AMD that pioneered having variable refresh over HDMI, so it's quite possible that we may see at least the VRR portion of HDMI 2.1 support.

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post #86 of 159 Old 01-03-2019, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Callsign_Vega View Post
NVIDIA's 2H 2019 7nm GPU supports HDMI 2.1 48 GBps .
while I hope i am wrong, i doubt there will be any 7nm Nvidia GPU in 2019
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i doubt there will be any 7nm Nvidia GPU in 2019
And even then, I wouldn't be surprised Nvidia would conveniently support every feature of HDMI 2.1 except variable refresh rate, especially considering their intention to push BFG Displays that compete directly with TVs.
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post #88 of 159 Old 01-03-2019, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
The wording is vague enough that we're going to need to wait for first owners to report on what actual options are supported to have any real insight into how the 'OLED Motion Pro' has been implemented, but it almost-certainly represents a significant upgrade to the backpkane.

I can concieve of three obvious options:

1/ Double native backplane refresh speed from 120Hz to 240Hz. A backplane that is fast-enough to refresh [email protected] will also be able to refresh [email protected], so if the 8K WOLED supports 120Hz refresh, this might be the 'easiest' option.

A backplane with 240Hz native refresh rate would support 50% BFI @ 120Hz and would also support 25% BFI @ 60Hz, but cannot support 25% BFI @ 120Hz, so we'll need to wait to see what LG's reference to BFI at '120Hz and with shorter black frame cycle (25% vs. 50% of last year)' translates to to understand whether this 'simple' solution could be involved or not.

2/ Addition of a seperate 'blanking' control to the backplane. This involves the addition of another transistor within each subpixel, so it is a more significant (and more expemsive, in terms of additional yield loss) solution, but this option would support 25% BFI @ 120Hz and does not require 'speeding up' the backplane to a native refresh rate of 240Hz, so if 25% BFI @ 120Hz is supprted but the 8K WOLED only support 60fps (and not a full [email protected] refresh), this may be how it's been done.

3/ A backplane that supports [email protected] native refresh rate is capable of writing one row of pixels every 1/259,200th of a second (259.1kHz row write speed), and if the backplane has been modified to support row-write speeds that are twice as fast (518.4kHz), this write speed would be needed to support [email protected] refresh but can also be used to support 25% BFI @ 120Hz with 4K content if it is designed to support a refresh architecture more sophisticated than the simple 'full-frame-refresh described in option 1.

By alternating between the write of one line of the new frame and writing to black (blanking) another line of the old frame, 120Hz BFI of 25%, 50%, 75%, or theoretically almost any % could be supported.

This would also be the easiest way to support VRR, since a framerate of any integer divisor of 518.4kHz could be supported.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this is what LG has implemented: increase line write speed to 518.4KHz and use it in a way that is not possible for scanning-backlight LED/LCD (line-granurality blanking rather than backlight segment-granularity blanking).

In terms of the earlier posts on 25% BFI, it is correct that 25% BFI is less effective than 50% BFI (50% more persistance and persistance-based motion blur) but the hope and expectation is that any BFI solution supporting 25% BFI also supports 75% BFI, and 75% BFI has half the perisitance of 50% BFI.

The light loss associated with 75% BFI will be twice that of 50% BFI (so 1/4 brighess instead of 1/2 brightness) but I'm also hoping that LG will eventually figure out that BFI means they can use the full HDR peak brightness levels for SDR content without any impact on aging/lifetime.

1ms @ 600 cd/m2 ages (and generates heat) exactly the same as 4ms @ 150cd/m2, so there is absolutely no reason for engagement of BFI when viewing SDR content to result in and noticable decrease in brightness.

If LG has implemented 'OLED Motion Pro' in a manner that supports 75% BFI without sacrificing brighness, the result will be a decrease in persistance from 8.3ms to 2.1ms at brightness levels of at least 150cd/m2 peak and possibly as high as 250cd/m2 peak (1/4 of 1000cd/m2). 2.1ms is getting close to plasma-like persistance levels of 1.7ms...

We'll need to wait for all the specs to be fully announced and tested, but it's looking to me as though 2019 may prove to be the year LG finally had the confidence to step to the front and start leading the industry...
Accirding to this: https://essentialinstall.com/news/ho...-hdmi-2-1-tvs/

"Unlike Samsung’s Q900R, the Z9 and SM99 will support 8K signals up to 60 fps, a whole 30 fps more. "

So in terms of the options I outlined in the earlier post, the fact that the Z9 only supports [email protected] and not 120Hz suggestes that the backplane has not been sped up since 2018 and 'Option 1' can probably be crossed off of the list. It's likely that the 2019 backplane supports the same native refresh rate as the 2018 backplane and the 2019 BFI solution is based on some backplane change to support a 240Hz Effective refresh rate (meaning blanking on a single-line or segment basis using either an additional control/transistor added to each subpixel or a 'quick line-reset' cycle slipped in between row write cycles).

I suspect the 8K Z9 to support identical BFI feateures to the 4K WOLEDs, but we're just going to need to wait to find out...
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post #89 of 159 Old 01-03-2019, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Accirding to this: https://essentialinstall.com/news/ho...-hdmi-2-1-tvs/

"Unlike Samsung’s Q900R, the Z9 and SM99 will support 8K signals up to 60 fps, a whole 30 fps more. "

So in terms of the options I outlined in the earlier post, the fact that the Z9 only supports [email protected] and not 120Hz suggestes that the backplane has not been sped up since 2018 and 'Option 1' can probably be crossed off of the list. It's likely that the 2019 backplane supports the same native refresh rate as the 2018 backplane and the 2019 BFI solution is based on some backplane change to support a 240Hz Effective refresh rate (meaning blanking on a single-line or segment basis using either an additional control/transistor added to each subpixel or a 'quick line-reset' cycle slipped in between row write cycles).

I suspect the 8K Z9 to support identical BFI feateures to the 4K WOLEDs, but we're just going to need to wait to find out...
If this is something at the panel level, does that mean the other manufacturers could have it as well? Or are we talking about separate hardware?

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post #90 of 159 Old 01-03-2019, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Micolash View Post
If this is something at the panel level, does that mean the other manufacturers could have it as well? Or are we talking about separate hardware?
The LED backlight of FALD LED/LCDs have alsways provided them an easy second 'blanking control' to turn an LCD panel with a 120Hz native refresh rate into a scanning LED/LCD with an effective refresh rate of twice that level (240Hz).

LGs 2018 BFI used an OLED Panel with a 120Hz native refresh rate to implement 50% BFI by writing full black frames in between full source frames (which is why it only worked at 60fps and had such objectionable flicker).

If LG added a new control to be able to 'blank' rows/segments rather that just refresh them with new data, that would essentially allow WOLED to finally catch up with LED/LCD.

If this new control allows individual lines to be blanked rather that full segments of 1/4 or 1/8 of the screen, that would allow WOLED to go where LED/LCD cannot follow.

Taken to the extreme, line-level blanking would allow lines/frames to be emitting for any duty cycle between 0.5ms (1/2160) and 999.5ms (2159/2160). Of course, lines/frames need to be emitting for enough time to generate the desired brightness, which is why this technique is most effective when pixels are emitting maximum brightness.

We are talking about new/seperate hardware, but the question is whether that harware is only at the periphery of the array, or within the subpixels themselves.

By adding an additional blanking/reset transistor within each subpixel, full control at single-line granularity is possible but is expensive both in terms of the coat of the control as well as increased yield loss from the added transistors within the subpixels.

Another option would be to split the columns in half and reset one line in one half while the corresponding line of the other half is being written with the new frame. This would add little/no new cost but would be limited to BFI levels of 50% or less...

By 'other manufacturers' if you mean other OEMs such as Sony and Panasonic, I suspect that whatever changes/controls have been added to the WOLED panel itself will be documented and made available to all LGD customers...
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