OLED TVs Hit By Severe Blocking And Flashing Problems Poll - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
View Poll Results: Do you see macroblock flashing on your 2018 OLED?
No macroblock flashing on my 2018 LG OLED. 69 36.51%
Macroblock Flashing visible on my 2018 LG OLED. 85 44.97%
No macroblock flashing on my 2018 Sony OLED. 20 10.58%
Macroblock Flashing visible on my 2018 Sony OLED. 8 4.23%
No macroblock flashing on my 2018 Panasonic OLED. 5 2.65%
Macroblock Flashing visible on my 2018 Panasonic OLED. 3 1.59%
No macroblock flashing on my 2018 Philips OLED. 3 1.59%
Macroblock Flashing visible on my 2018 Philips OLED. 4 2.12%
No macroblock flashing on my 2018 Other OLED. 1 0.53%
Macroblock Flashing visible on my 2018 Other OLED. 6 3.17%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 189. You may not vote on this poll

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post #241 of 577 Old 03-10-2019, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
green = original measure (from a month ago, unfortunately I didn't take one right before updating)
yellow = with 04.10.31 update



Time to recalibrate.
For those of us who only use Technicolor or ISF settings, do you think that this is going to throw those off?


And I also want to thank you for your time that you put into this
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post #242 of 577 Old 03-10-2019, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
Just look at a 4% or below gray pattern in a dark room with a magnifier and you should see if its dithering or not. If the white sub-pixel is lit very uneven like in the second photo it should have the dithering fix.
Thanks - would be great if you could monitor the C9 owners thread once it kicks-off and contribute that idea to one of the early owners...

Quote:
But on the other hand we don't know if there have been any changes in manufacturing regarding the C9, so maybe they don't even need this dithering fix/workaround.
It is exceedingly difficult for WOLED pixels to be controlled close to being off - once the pixels are more strongly 'on', uniformity & linearity are much easier to control. Use of dithering in the near-black region is the right way to improve WOLED pixel performance near-black (which is why BFI improves near-black uniformity).

I'm still unsure what changed between 2017 and 2018 to cause this issue, but hopefully the dithering 'fix' that LG has developed will improve near-black uniformity of WOLEDs going forward...
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post #243 of 577 Old 03-10-2019, 03:13 PM
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I just checked a HDR black clipping pattern and I'm seing the exact opposite compared to SDR with the new firmware. At default settings I can see 68 slightly flash (64 being pure black). With the old firmware everything below 80 was crushed and I had to raise 2-Point low to somewhat fix this.

The gradation seems to be also improved in HDR, I remember seing some harsh steps in that black clipping pattern but now it looks very smooth.

Also in HDR the dithering seems to be dynamic (it changes even with the picture paused) while in SDR it was static.

I wonder if other people will experience the same with 04.10.31.
SDR low-end getting darker
HDR low-end getting brighter


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Originally Posted by J__Chris View Post
For those of us who only use Technicolor or ISF settings, do you think that this is going to throw those off?


And I also want to thank you for your time that you put into this

I think that my panel isn't average. It has a very dark low-end and needs adjustments to fix that, even before the new firmware that was the case. My previous panel was the exact opposite, it had a very bright low-end, maybe even too bright but I didn't have a meter back then.


I think the reason why it took LG so long to release this fix is that they tested a lot of panels and tried to find some average fix that will fit most panels without messing things up. My panel is far from average I think, that's why it needs significant 2p/20p white balance adjustements or a 3dlut. If your panel has a more average low-end than mine you will probably be fine without any adjustments.
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post #244 of 577 Old 03-10-2019, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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This sounds very promising. Is there an easy test that can be passed on to the first C9 owners to check whether LG has implemented this new near-black dithering technology into the 2019 WOLEDs from the get-go?
Probably the simplest test is to just look at color gradation results like the ones posted at the bottom of this page: https://test.full.band/vtest_Quants2D.html
Or in Vincent's hdtvtest video. Maybe try these on your 2016 model?

Those 2017 OLED results look horrific. Dithering is the lesser of the evils if you can't natively display the full color range.

Can someone try those patterns on the "fixed" firmware 2018 models and post some comparison photos to see if the sets can now properly display either 8-bit or 10-bit content without introducing posterization? Thanks.
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post #245 of 577 Old 03-10-2019, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
I think the reason why it took LG so long to release this fix is that they tested a lot of panels and tried to find some average fix that will fit most panels without messing things up. My panel is far from average I think, that's why it needs significant 2p/20p white balance adjustements or a 3dlut. If your panel has a more average low-end than mine you will probably be fine without any adjustments.
I certainly agree with this analysis. We knew about the panel variations issue and it would make sense to try to give everyone an "average" level of fix. I've raised my Brightness to 53-54 in most SDR modes.

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post #246 of 577 Old 03-10-2019, 04:17 PM
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My c8 shows much more shadow detail then my last c8. It almost shows to much detail so I hope this update will bring it down a bit as well.
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post #247 of 577 Old 03-10-2019, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Probably the simplest test is to just look at color gradation results like the ones posted at the bottom of this page: https://test.full.band/vtest_Quants2D.html
Or in Vincent's hdtvtest video. Maybe try these on your 2016 model?

Those 2017 OLED results look horrific. Dithering is the lesser of the evils if you can't natively display the full color range.

Can someone try those patterns on the "fixed" firmware 2018 models and post some comparison photos to see if the sets can now properly display either 8-bit or 10-bit content without introducing posterization? Thanks.
Yes I think I mentioned this earlier. Or perhaps it was in the other thread, or the other forum - been all over the place today!

Using the patterns from https://test.full.band H.265-HEVC\UHD4K\BT709\Quants2D
the two darkest ones
Quants2D-U4K-Y016Cb-NearBlack
Quants2D-U4K-Y016Cr-NearBlack

It's very difficult to take photos but I will try. EDIT: the hdr10 ones all come out as a flat colour when photographed so I'll leave that for someone with a better camera!
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post #248 of 577 Old 03-10-2019, 05:55 PM
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I wonder if new firmware will also help with banding. BFI does not take away banding but it does make it look less noticeable.
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post #249 of 577 Old 03-10-2019, 06:02 PM
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LG needs some better QC. I understand that not all panels have this issue but there is no excuse for them not to test these TVs throughout the production cycle. Do they not even watch them in a dark room? lol

My panel has this issue but it is minor. I'd be blissfully ignorant if it wasn't for some of the owners that really made some noise about this. So thanks for that...

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post #250 of 577 Old 03-10-2019, 06:07 PM
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Any consensus yet on the update for those of us who have not had any of the issues discussed, or at least none of the issues that were perceptible on any content?

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post #251 of 577 Old 03-10-2019, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Yes I think I mentioned this earlier. Or perhaps it was in the other thread, or the other forum - been all over the place today!

Using the patterns from https://test.full.band H.265-HEVC\UHD4K\BT709\Quants2D
the two darkest ones
Quants2D-U4K-Y016Cb-NearBlack
Quants2D-U4K-Y016Cr-NearBlack

It's very difficult to take photos but I will try. EDIT: the hdr10 ones all come out as a flat colour when photographed so I'll leave that for someone with a better camera!
Thanks for the pics. Looking very promising. :-)

The poor color gradation/posterization and lack of uniformity (yellow stains, vertical banding, vignetting) are the main problems keeping me from upgrading my plasma to an OLED. Any improvement in these key areas is most welcomed - as long as it doesn't introduce any new issues.

It will be interesting to see if/when any of these improvements make their way to the other OLED TV manufacturers.
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post #252 of 577 Old 03-10-2019, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamd View Post
I wonder if new firmware will also help with banding. BFI does not take away banding but it does make it look less noticeable.
Dithering will not magically make bands disappear but it makes sharp edged bands softer looking which makes them a bit less of an annoyance during camera pans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post
LG needs some better QC. I understand that not all panels have this issue but there is no excuse for them not to test these TVs throughout the production cycle. Do they not even watch them in a dark room? lol
I guess not, there have been multiple cases where LG support demanded pictures of near-black issues being taken in a well-lit room because that's apparently how one should watch these TVs.
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post #253 of 577 Old 03-10-2019, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
Dithering will not magically make bands disappear but it makes sharp edged bands softer looking which makes them a bit less of an annoyance during camera pans.



I guess not, there have been multiple cases where LG support demanded pictures of near-black issues being taken in a well-lit room because that's apparently how one should watch these TVs.
That’s great I’ll take any kind of improvement. I opened up and quieted my hissing 77c8 and after this firmware I think I’ll finally be happy enough to hold onto this tv for 3-5 years.
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post #254 of 577 Old 03-11-2019, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
Dithering will not magically make bands disappear but it makes sharp edged bands softer looking which makes them a bit less of an annoyance during camera pans.



I guess not, there have been multiple cases where LG support demanded pictures of near-black issues being taken in a well-lit room because that's apparently how one should watch these TVs.
Would you say this update is simmilar with helping with banding like the bfi setting? I agree that bfi does not get rid of banding but makes the lines less noticeable. Bfi really makes my panel look great my 77c8 is already very clean. I can’t wait for this update I’m going to be checking hourly until it drops.
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post #255 of 577 Old 03-11-2019, 06:41 AM
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No, BFI has a much larger effect on uniformity. Don't expect too much in that regard. I just noticed a small improvement after updating since I know exactly what my panel uniformity looks like.
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post #256 of 577 Old 03-11-2019, 06:51 AM
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No, BFI has a much larger effect on uniformity. Don't expect too much in that regard. I just noticed a small improvement after updating since I know exactly what my panel uniformity looks like.
That’s to bad I had high hopes. I wish bfi did not flicker so much and kill brightness I’d use it all the time. First picture is no bfi and second is with it on.Click image for larger version

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post #257 of 577 Old 03-11-2019, 07:00 AM
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That’s to bad I had high hopes. I wish bfi did not flicker so much and kill brightness I’d use it all the time. First picture is no bfi and second is with it on.Attachment 2537296

Attachment 2537298
Either way that looks good. I tried the BFI but the flicker is a killer for me.

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post #258 of 577 Old 03-11-2019, 07:03 AM
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Yeah BFI certainly improves uniformity quite a bit. I was always wondering if it wasn't possible to implement some algorithm that would insert black frames only to dark areas where the flicker isn't noticeable and not do it for brighter areas. But I guess that would be really hard to implement without introducing abrupt transitions and it would also require a higher refresh rate internally.
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post #259 of 577 Old 03-11-2019, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
Yeah BFI certainly improves uniformity quite a bit. I was always wondering if it wasn't possible to implement some algorithm that would insert black frames only to dark areas where the flicker isn't noticeable and not do it for brighter areas. But I guess that would be really hard to implement without introducing abrupt transitions and it would also require a higher refresh rate internally.
I think I read the 2019 do this.
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post #260 of 577 Old 03-11-2019, 11:31 AM
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I think I read the 2019 do this.
No, the change for the 2019 range is that it has shorter black frames inserted between the normal frames, than our models.

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post #261 of 577 Old 03-11-2019, 12:03 PM
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No, the change for the 2019 range is that it has shorter black frames inserted between the normal frames, than our models.
Oh maybe it was from a Sony or Panasonic.
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post #262 of 577 Old 03-11-2019, 12:39 PM
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I'm predicting when this FW goes live (no longer test build) there will be quite a few people who will be pissed because it could mess up their payed calibration (especially bright room watchers who are immune to near-black issues).


For me this is the best FW update LG has ever done. I can do heavy 20-P WB adjustments without introducing issues like posterization. Before I could barely touch IRE 5% without causing issues and now I can do heavy adjustments.


Also I no longer have black crush in HDR, which is weird because in SDR this FW had the opposite effect.



The dithering in HDR seems to be stronger. Comparing a grayscale test pattern that measures at exactly 0.022 nits looks more uniform in HDR than it does in SDR.
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Last edited by jk82; 03-11-2019 at 12:53 PM.
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post #263 of 577 Old 03-11-2019, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
I'm predicting when this FW goes live (no longer test build) there will be quite a few people who will be pissed because it could mess up their payed calibration (especially bright room watchers who are immune to near-black issues).


For me this is the best FW update LG has ever done. I can do heavy 20-P WB adjustments without introducing issues like posterization. Before I could barely touch IRE 5% without causing issues and now I can do heavy adjustments.


Also I no longer have black crush in HDR, which is weird because in SDR this FW had the opposite effect.



The dithering in HDR seems to be stronger. Comparing a grayscale test pattern that measures at exactly 0.022 nits looks more uniform in HDR than it does in SDR.


Wonder if that will improve artifacts in 3d luts? that’s my biggest complaint with my meter limitations .


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post #264 of 577 Old 03-11-2019, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
I'm predicting when this FW goes live (no longer test build) there will be quite a few people who will be pissed because it could mess up their payed calibration (especially bright room watchers who are immune to near-black issues).


For me this is the best FW update LG has ever done. I can do heavy 20-P WB adjustments without introducing issues like posterization. Before I could barely touch IRE 5% without causing issues and now I can do heavy adjustments.


Also I no longer have black crush in HDR, which is weird because in SDR this FW had the opposite effect.



The dithering in HDR seems to be stronger. Comparing a grayscale test pattern that measures at exactly 0.022 nits looks more uniform in HDR than it does in SDR.
Kudos to LG for following up on this and coming up with a firmware fix; this is one thing I really like at LG.
I really hope that Sony and other TV manufacturers affected by these issues will follow suit and include similar fixes in their future firmware releases. Fingers crossed.
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post #265 of 577 Old 03-11-2019, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
Wonder if that will improve artifacts in 3d luts? that’s my biggest complaint with my meter limitations .
The grayscale measurement comparison I posted a pic of previously was with my 3dlut. The new FW basically made the near-black range darker but my panel has always had black crush, even at default settings. Weirdly in HDR it's the opposite, black clipping pattern looks almost perfect at default settings, where before it was severely crushed and there were also some harsh steps. So, not sure how the FW will affect panels that are more average.


I haven't made a new 3dlut yet but my manual calibration turned out to be pretty good. It needed some heavy 5-15% adjustments which surely would have caused color banding and posterization with the old fw but from the scenes/pattern I tested so far it looks pretty smooth.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ion.jorj View Post
Kudos to LG for following up on this and coming up with a firmware fix; this is one thing I really like at LG.
I really hope that Sony and other TV manufacturers affected by these issues will follow suit and include similar fixes in their future firmware releases. Fingers crossed.

Yeah to be honest I was expecting this issue (near-black overshoot) to be just ignored or some bull**** fix like raising absolute black. Their implemented solution is really good, because it not only fixes the overshoot but also makes the whole near-black range better. This is some significant change and I think we really can't blame LG that this might also mess up peoples calibrations. There is just too much panel variance with these TVs.
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post #266 of 577 Old 03-11-2019, 04:05 PM
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That’s to bad I had high hopes. I wish bfi did not flicker so much and kill brightness I’d use it all the time. First picture is no bfi and second is with it on.Attachment 2537296

Attachment 2537298
The 2019 WOLEDs will deliver BFI @ 120Hz (which should mean much less noticable flicker).

Also, the two pics you posted are great but are at different brightness levels. Can you increase OLED Light with BFI activated so that the brightness levels (and camera settings) for the two images is roughly equal?
In fact, since near-black uniformity is worse at lower output levels, what I'd really like you to do is refuce OLED Light setting without BFI so that output levels are reduced close to the levels you get with BFI...

I've been theorizing that BFI should improve near-black uniformity and asking C8 owners to take some pics to prove the theory but you are the first to do so... Thanks!
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post #267 of 577 Old 03-11-2019, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
The 2019 WOLEDs will deliver BFI @ 120Hz (which should mean much less noticable flicker).

Also, the two pics you posted are great but are at different brightness levels. Can you increase OLED Light with BFI activated so that the brightness levels (and camera settings) for the two images is roughly equal?
In fact, since near-black uniformity is worse at lower output levels, what I'd really like you to do is refuce OLED Light setting without BFI so that output levels are reduced close to the levels you get with BFI...

I've been theorizing that BFI should improve near-black uniformity and asking C8 owners to take some pics to prove the theory but you are the first to do so... Thanks!
I tried to match the light output of the tv as best I could from just looking. The two pictures look different only becasue of camera. This matches better to the other picture. Click image for larger version

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post #268 of 577 Old 03-11-2019, 04:26 PM
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I tried to match the light output of the tv as best I could from just looking. The two pictures look different only becasue of camera. This matches better to the other picture. Attachment 2537494
Thanks. This is without BFI but with OLED Light reduced to approximately match output levels, right?

For ease-of-comparison, it would be helpful if you could post both pics in a single post again (also, it would be great if you could post the same pics in the Master OLED streaking / banding / non-uniformity thread...).

I'll need to wait 'til tonight to look at these pics - appear black in the daylight...
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post #269 of 577 Old 03-11-2019, 05:21 PM
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^at least pay the man
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post #270 of 577 Old 03-11-2019, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Thanks. This is without BFI but with OLED Light reduced to approximately match output levels, right?

For ease-of-comparison, it would be helpful if you could post both pics in a single post again (also, it would be great if you could post the same pics in the Master OLED streaking / banding / non-uniformity thread...).

I'll need to wait 'til tonight to look at these pics - appear black in the daylight...
OK - sunlight has faded to dusk. That's actually a pretty darned-good 5% screen. Looks like a lightened rectangle roughly where the controller board 'pancake' is.

But with BFI it's noticably better - perhaps the best 5% uniformity I've ever seen on a WOLED!

If your screenis at all representative of what the 2019 WOLEDs deliver, I may be ready to jump on one .
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