OLED TVs Hit By Severe Blocking And Flashing Problems Poll - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
View Poll Results: Do you see macroblock flashing on your 2018 OLED?
No macroblock flashing on my 2018 LG OLED. 69 36.51%
Macroblock Flashing visible on my 2018 LG OLED. 85 44.97%
No macroblock flashing on my 2018 Sony OLED. 20 10.58%
Macroblock Flashing visible on my 2018 Sony OLED. 8 4.23%
No macroblock flashing on my 2018 Panasonic OLED. 5 2.65%
Macroblock Flashing visible on my 2018 Panasonic OLED. 3 1.59%
No macroblock flashing on my 2018 Philips OLED. 3 1.59%
Macroblock Flashing visible on my 2018 Philips OLED. 4 2.12%
No macroblock flashing on my 2018 Other OLED. 1 0.53%
Macroblock Flashing visible on my 2018 Other OLED. 6 3.17%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 189. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 597 Old 12-26-2018, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
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OLED TVs Hit By Severe Blocking And Flashing Problems Poll

In the interest of science, let's move this topic out of the bickering owner threads and into a dedicated thread. If you're not affected, please vote so and refrain from starting pointless arguments in this thread. Getting lots of useful posts deleted doesn't help anyone in diagnosing the issue. Hopefully we can determine how widespread this issue actually is and ways to mitigate or fix it.

Please vote in the poll so we can determine if any of the OLED TV manufacturers have found solutions to the problem and what percent of panels are afflicted. Please only vote if you own a model with a 2018 panel (LG B8, C8, E8, W8. Sony A8F, A9F, etc.).

Some background reading on the topic before you vote:

Forbes: OLED TVs Hit By Severe Blocking And Flashing Problems

Vincent Teoh from HDTVTest Confirmation of issue.

Dedicated thread on another forum (please let me know if linking not allowed)



Rtings.com demonstration of the problem on A9F, E8, and C8:


@jk82 test pattern can be downloaded here.

Original post explaining how to use the pattern:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
Could you please try this test video I made? Download and play directly to the TV via USB.
(Technicolor or ISF dark at default settings, default brightness)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Vp...tNQidkEZnmjGuV
Do some of the squares flash up, as in getting brighter than they should be when they change color?

I know there were some much more severe cases back then, which I couldn't reproduce. On mine the problem only shows up during specific scenes and it's quite rare.
I just want to figure out if all panels show this problem to some extent.
Another set of test scenes and download link:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
Some test clips that should show the issue on affected panels. Please try this at default settings first (especially default brightness) before using any custom/calibrated presets.

https://www31.zippyshare.com/v/EpYS17Wc/file.html


The vikings and handmaids tale one show it pretty obvious on mine, even with some ambient light. The pyewacket and slender man ones are from blu-ray so there are no big macroblocks flashing up and it looks more like some kind of intense weird noise and might not be easily visible in a non-dark room.
If you can see the issue on yours and believe it to be a source problem, just play it again with color on the TV set to 0, that stops all the flashing artifacts.

Thanks to @IgorZep for finding another useful pattern Here. Download as part of pattern collection linked here. Can be used for testing near-black color gradation and posterization as discussed in Vincent's video or to test for flashing if you follow jk82's directions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
I just tried the Quants3D pattern.

Quants3D-U4K-Slow1: This one shows some of the squares flashing up while it's coming out of black.

Quants3D-U4K-Slow4: This one also shows the flashing, a bit less though.

But what looks much worse though is if I pause it at the beginning and then drag the picture around with my mouse (edit: can also pan using live-zoom feature on LG TV). The edges of the colored squares basically light up to a much brighter gray... If I drag it somewhat fast in a circle it looks as if the colored squares had a bright gray shadow behind them. This is one of the worst examples I've seen and would make a perfect test pattern if the squares would be moving around..


1/7/2019 Announcement of future firmware fix by LG:


Forbes.com: OLED TV Blocking And Flashing Problems: LG Responds

Also from Rtings.com:

Quote:
Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
We now have another legit source confirming that LG has confirmed the issue and is working on a fix. Received this yesterday from rtings via email:

"Hi Ricky,

We tested this on our LG OLEDs and Sony A9F, and were able to reproduce the issue with a test pattern. It appears that it occurs when the white sub-pixel is turned on or off in dark scenes, for example, if there is a pixel switch from (3,5,7) to (0,5,7). LG has confirmed the issue, and is working on a fix. Because the fix can impact the TV's picture quality, they are making sure there are no adverse effects from the fix, so they are currently saying it should be ready in the next couple of months.

We've posted a video of this over on AVS, you can see it here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post57376996

Adam Babcock
RTINGS.com"

3/9/2019 4.10.31 Firmware Fix Released for Europe:

LG Fixes OLED TV Flashing And Blocking Problems. [Updated]



3/23/2019 LG C8 and E8 4.10.31 Firmware Download Link for USA:


Quote:
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Last edited by Wizziwig; 03-23-2019 at 06:27 PM.
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post #2 of 597 Old 12-26-2018, 03:57 PM
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2/2 affected C8, can I vote twice now?


Though my second panel seems to not show the problem in HDR content, at least not as intense as the first one, so this probably isn't an affected/not affected only issue but the severity can vary a lot too I guess.
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post #3 of 597 Old 12-26-2018, 04:06 PM
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So this is a problem only for the 2018 OLEDs? I clicked the thread title "OLED TVs" to see a poll that says "2018 OLED"...


... and no, I've never seen anything like that video is showing on my 2017 OLED after 1900 hours of usage.
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post #4 of 597 Old 12-26-2018, 04:31 PM
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I went to a Netflix timestamp mentioned in the article and I didn't see anything out of the ordinary. I see maybe some type of minor flashing in that test pattern but its not what is shown in that youtube video. Maybe you can better explain what I should be looking for.
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post #5 of 597 Old 12-26-2018, 05:04 PM
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Some test clips that should show the issue on affected panels. Please try this at default settings first (especially default brightness) before using any custom/calibrated presets.

https://www31.zippyshare.com/v/EpYS17Wc/file.html


The vikings and handmaids tale one show it pretty obvious on mine, even with some ambient light. The pyewacket and slender man ones are from blu-ray so there are no big macroblocks flashing up and it looks more like some kind of intense weird noise and might not be easily visible in a non-dark room.
If you can see the issue on yours and believe it to be a source problem, just play it again with color on the TV set to 0, that stops all the flashing artifacts.
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post #6 of 597 Old 12-26-2018, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisPNW View Post
So this is a problem only for the 2018 OLEDs? I clicked the thread title "OLED TVs" to see a poll that says "2018 OLED"...


... and no, I've never seen anything like that video is showing on my 2017 OLED after 1900 hours of usage.
You are in the clear - only some 2018 panels.

Great thread title - no drama.
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post #7 of 597 Old 12-26-2018, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
You are in the clear - only some 2018 panels.



Great thread title - no drama.


You should capitalize “some” and make it flash .


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post #8 of 597 Old 12-26-2018, 05:45 PM
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Is this just occurring on some C8's, or is it affecting the B8 and E8 equally too?
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post #9 of 597 Old 12-26-2018, 06:12 PM
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Mostly just some C8's.
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post #10 of 597 Old 12-26-2018, 06:23 PM
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I see some of the blocks flashing on my e8.
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post #11 of 597 Old 12-26-2018, 06:27 PM
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Hopefully it is not present in A9F.

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post #12 of 597 Old 12-26-2018, 06:34 PM
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I haven’t noticed any of this, but I’ll take a look and report back.

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post #13 of 597 Old 12-26-2018, 06:46 PM
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OK when I switch to Standard Picture Mode I can see the flash in that Lost Viking Netflix example. And that's exactly why I don't use standard picture mode...


I've had my 77C8 for 6 months and I can't say I've seen this or any other issues in actual content with Technicolor Mode.


This is obviously a processing issue and something they could fix in a firmware update.
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post #14 of 597 Old 12-26-2018, 07:35 PM
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I see it on my C8, rtings specifications, technicolor mode, using the linked test pattern video
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post #15 of 597 Old 12-27-2018, 04:37 AM
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Another affected owner, LG C8 65", October 2018 assembly date. Personally, I think this overshoot affects the whole range, not just black to near-black, and has the side effect of greatly exaggerating content grain and noise. One of the first things I noticed about the C8 was that it seemed much grainier than the C7 I exchanged for it. I see another side-effect of this overshoot, sometimes eg a uniform wall in the background of a shot will be flickering. Most of the time though it's like a micro-flicker that you wouldn't even notice, unless you're specifically looking for it rather than focusing on the characters.

Regarding the near-black flashing specifically, I saw this on the second night. I then went to the avsforum owners thread, and into a barrage of criticism for bringing it up ('stop looking for issues', 'it's the content', 'you're just here to complain' etc). I'm well aware of tech and process limitations so my expectations were adjusted accordingly (I knew there may be some dark vertical banding and some tinting). However, this is an actual defect, which is something else entirely. After reading back through that thread, it had been brought up numerous times over many months. Some people in that thread were treated quite poorly for trying to discuss this very real issue.

Personally. the two most effective ways to mitigate this issue is with the use of madVR. The first is applying extra dithering - dithering to a bit-depth of 5bit practically eliminates this issue, at a cost of an almost imperceptible increase in noise. The second is the use of a 'fake' 3dlut, created with Displaycal. It's not quite as effective as the extra dithering (some minor flashing still in some scenes) but it is greatly reduced. The biggest benefit to the fake 3dlut is I can use a fake black level and apply a bt.1886 curve to overcome some black crush without using any of the TV controls (and therefore not raising the black level).

I haven't found an acceptable solution for streaming apps, other than to turn on a room light, so you can't see into the dark areas.

I have a meter and will calibrate properly, but I'm holding off in case LG have to swap my panel, or if they implement a firmware fix that would mean having to redo it.

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post #16 of 597 Old 12-27-2018, 06:13 AM
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New Vincent Teoh video regarding this issue:

"From my investigation, this affects all 2018 LG oleds"
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Last edited by iSeries; 12-27-2018 at 06:37 AM.
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post #17 of 597 Old 12-27-2018, 06:14 AM
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By the way I can totally see how people who use a bias light or watch in a somewhat lit room will never notice this even if their panel is affected. It's amazing how much more near-black details you can see in a completely dark room and how much more noticeable it makes this issue.
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post #18 of 597 Old 12-27-2018, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
New Vincent Teoh video regarding this issue: https://youtu.be/KjObx--Oq8g

"From my investigation, this affects all 2018 LG oleds"
To add on to this video.....

The higher macroblocking/low end posterization exists on all 2018 LGD panel modules.... which means any manufacturer using these panels will have the issue. The higher macroblocking exists on my A8F and current A9F (very easy to see when side by side to the 2017 models). The flashing does not exist on my TVs and does not impact all LGD panel modules.
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post #19 of 597 Old 12-27-2018, 07:38 AM
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Just watched Vincents video and I'm a bit disappointed by the test pattern he uses. If anything this only shows the issue at very minor severity. If what his pattern shows was all there is to it then I wouldn't complain.
It requires not only near-black luminance changes but also color changes to really make it appear in a severe way and his pattern doesn't do that.

But at least in the content examples the flashing was visible like I know it. And like he said he has seen it in other scenes too but couldn't record it which makes sense as I also tried to record other scenes than the handmaids tale one but couldn't get it to really show in the recording.

Let's see how LG deals with this now...



Also I wonder what percentage of panels are affected by the flashing. The number must be pretty high as there have been quite a few people who had a replacement panel/TV and still had the flashing, me included.
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post #20 of 597 Old 12-27-2018, 08:08 AM
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If I do encounter macroblocking I can live with that. I just don’t ever want to experience those flashes where the macroblocks appear to flash white… that would be super distracting.

If Vincent is correct in that this is a panel manufacturing variance thing, then it explains why some people see it, why some people don’t, and why some people only develop the issue at a random later date. Some panels may never be susceptible to actually exhibiting the problem in a noticeable way… others may be at a good threshold when turned on for the first time, but maybe a couple hundred hours of use allows the panel to ‘settle’ and allow the issue to finally rear its ugly head. The continual ‘settling’ process also may explain why some people have noted that the issue exacerbates as time goes on.

I say this based on absolutely nothing but a gut feeling, but I don’t see LG going out of their way to replace the panel of everyone affected by this. I think they may try and engineer some visual trickery to put the core picture processing at a reasonable threshold that doesn’t exhibit the issue as much and hopefully defeats the awful white block flashes that some have experienced. And if that doesn’t work, they’ll probably just say ‘within specifications’ if you have blocking, but will probably attempt panel swaps for the most severe cases.

I got my C8 yesterday though, as I said, and I’m loving it. I haven’t run any tests to make the issue show up and I’m not going to. If it happens, it happens… there’s the normal warranty and I’ve got a five year extended warranty anyway. It seems it really only happens for a few seconds, or maybe a dozen or so, on any given source that had the problem… at least on high quality sources like Blu-ray and 4K discs. I can probably live with that.

I wouldn’t worry much about Teoh’s pattern not showing the issue enough... John Archer has mentioned that engineers have seen the issue on a couple/few affected panels prior to all this. LG know what’s going on.
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post #21 of 597 Old 12-27-2018, 09:04 AM
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I can't see Gal Gadot issuie on my set (B8S). I watched The Last Kingdom scene that was shown in Vince's video several times and nothing flashing.
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post #22 of 597 Old 12-27-2018, 09:22 AM
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The part that should be made more clear is that your picture settings make a big difference if you are going to see this or not. I'm in a dark room using Technicolor with Gamma 2.4 for SDR and I don't see it. I have to switch to standard picture mode to see it. In which case it doesn't really affect me.

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post #23 of 597 Old 12-27-2018, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
Just watched Vincents video and I'm a bit disappointed by the test pattern he uses. If anything this only shows the issue at very minor severity. If what his pattern shows was all there is to it then I wouldn't complain.
It requires not only near-black luminance changes but also color changes to really make it appear in a severe way and his pattern doesn't do that.

But at least in the content examples the flashing was visible like I know it. And like he said he has seen it in other scenes too but couldn't record it which makes sense as I also tried to record other scenes than the handmaids tale one but couldn't get it to really show in the recording.

Let's see how LG deals with this now...

Also I wonder what percentage of panels are affected by the flashing. The number must be pretty high as there have been quite a few people who had a replacement panel/TV and still had the flashing, me included.
I think the number of affected panels must be substantial - even if it was as low as 10%, that's still a huge number of panels. And it's likely higher than people think, I reckon more than a few people buy an OLED, say "I can't see a damn thing in the shadows" and then crank the brightness control up, and then never see this issue. The word is out now though, people are specifically looking for it and finding it.

I couldn't really see what I was supposed to be looking at in the test video that he posted on Instagram, but his slow-mo of the issue in content showed it off nicely. Come on LG, get this fixed for us please :-)
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post #24 of 597 Old 12-27-2018, 10:40 AM
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Severe...lol...c'mon...if it happens at all it's like for a few seconds at a time in low bitrate content.
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post #25 of 597 Old 12-27-2018, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
To add on to this video.....

The higher macroblocking/low end posterization exists on all 2018 LGD panel modules.... which means any manufacturer using these panels will have the issue. The higher macroblocking exists on my A8F and current A9F (very easy to see when side by side to the 2017 models). The flashing does not exist on my TVs and does not impact all LGD panel modules.
The macroblocking with low-light lower bitrate content is definitely worse than my previous display, an F8500. Granted the F8500 is only 1080p but when it comes to that type of video anomaly it beats the A9F hands down. I ran the flashing test on my A9F as well as discussing it with you and I'm not seeing anything like what some folks are seeing with their LG models.
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post #26 of 597 Old 12-27-2018, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mzupeman View Post
If Vincent is correct in that this is a panel manufacturing variance thing, then it explains why some people see it, why some people don’t, and why some people only develop the issue at a random later date. Some panels may never be susceptible to actually exhibiting the problem in a noticeable way… others may be at a good threshold when turned on for the first time, but maybe a couple hundred hours of use allows the panel to ‘settle’ and allow the issue to finally rear its ugly head. The continual ‘settling’ process also may explain why some people have noted that the issue exacerbates as time goes on.
All panels by default have a variance in colors, contrast, and brightness, maybe is the reason on why not everyone sees it? Just a guess.

Last edited by losservatore; 12-27-2018 at 11:39 AM.
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post #27 of 597 Old 12-27-2018, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryantc View Post
The part that should be made more clear is that your picture settings make a big difference if you are going to see this or not. I'm in a dark room using Technicolor with Gamma 2.4 for SDR and I don't see it. I have to switch to standard picture mode to see it. In which case it doesn't really affect me.

Yeah panel variance and settings can make a difference.

On mine I see the issue on every one of the somewhat accurate presets.
I just tried vivid mode and the flashing doesn't show up, but no way am I gonna become one of those vivid mode people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
I think the number of affected panels must be substantial - even if it was as low as 10%, that's still a huge number of panels. And it's likely higher than people think, I reckon more than a few people buy an OLED, say "I can't see a damn thing in the shadows" and then crank the brightness control up, and then never see this issue. The word is out now though, people are specifically looking for it and finding it.

Yep I think so too, on mine with just a little bit ambient light I could crank up the brightness to like 60 and not see any glow and that would also fix the flashing problem. Even if it was flashing, some ambient light makes this much much less noticeable. It's the dark room viewers that are mostly affected.
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post #28 of 597 Old 12-27-2018, 12:31 PM
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Drew... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief


It kind of ruins that. I can barely see it on the e8 I have, but it's more annoying than anything, especially for the price of the TV.
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post #29 of 597 Old 12-27-2018, 02:51 PM
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What if I am on C6 and issues described still affect me? Sure, the 'flashing' problem is not nearly as pronounced as Vincent captured on 2018 set, but it is there if you are picky (dark room / close viewing distance).

The 'blocking' problem, to me, is really just a color banding / posterisation problem. And it seems to affect absolutely all LG OLED sets of all years. To me it is quite clear it is not inherent to OLED panels themselves but the processing used on LG TVs. Using better precision math and appropriate dithering would eliminate the problem to non-existence and it seems other manufacturers are much better at solving that with the same OLED panels from LG.

By the way, pattern used in Vincent video @ 2:00 is this one (download link is at the homepage). You can try and see how it look like with just the eyes on your TV.

There is also Quants3D patterns in the set, that, probably, will also show some excessive flashing. It would be interesting if someone affected tries it and report. And of course they will 'flash' a little (or more) on any LG OLED just due to poor quantisation. Ideally it should be just smooth brightness increase with no flashing.
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post #30 of 597 Old 12-27-2018, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

The 'blocking' problem, to me, is really just a color banding / posterisation problem. And it seems to affect absolutely all LG OLED sets of all years.

You can't make a broad generalization like that because I have a C8 with none of the issues reported here, regardless of source.

I never trust an atom, they make up everything.
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