LG To Unveil 8K, ALPHA 9 Gen 2 Processor & HDMI 2.1 TVs at CES 2019 - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 977 Old 01-04-2019, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by TravisPNW View Post
Yeah I am close to the same viewing distance and 2k vs 4k I can see it. I'm not expecting to see it when it comes to 4k vs 8k and that's pretty much why I'm not getting all excited about an 8k announcement.

Maybe when I upgrade from 65" to 90" or something I'll start doing cartwheels... as it is right now though the content isn't going to be there and I'm not paying $20k to upscale my 4k movies.
Thanks for your various insights. In the end I may not be able to see it, I’ll probably be in even more dollar$ with new cables, AVR, and what would I do with my OPPO 203. I’m taking a pass.

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post #152 of 977 Old 01-04-2019, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by EdL View Post
Thanks for your various insights. In the end I may not be able to see it, I’ll probably be in even more dollar$ with new cables, AVR, and what would I do with my OPPO 203. I’m taking a pass.

EdL
When there us a 75" 120Hz 8K WOLED for a reasonable price (meaning under $5000), that might be an option to consider.

But as long as 65" 4K WOLEDs are twice as fast as 8K models, they represent a far better option at that size (even assuming price parity).

Now that's from 'normal' viewing distances of 8-10 feet. If you view a 65" WOLED from so close that you see noticable pixelization, giving up the benefits of a higher refresh rate in exchange for reduced/eliminated pixelization might be the better call...
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post #153 of 977 Old 01-04-2019, 03:16 PM
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It sounds fantastic on paper but I'm still not convinced that LG is in the same league as Panasonic, Sony and even Samsung when it comes to video processing. They certainly seem to be trying though so I wish them the best and look forward to reading reviews of their 2019 line-up.
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post #154 of 977 Old 01-04-2019, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by nesto719 View Post
In the meantime broadcast still can’t do full bandwidth 1080 🤦🏻*♂️🤦🏻*♂️
Of course they can. 1080P is in the ATSC 1.0 spec. But why would they when they are using bandwidth hogging MPEG2, and their total bandwidth is limited to around 19Mb/s. And with all the SD sub-channels and sometimes dual HD channels, they are very bandwidth constrained. Plus your average person wants more OTA channels, not less channels with higher bandwidth. There is just no incentive for broadcaster to use 1080P with the current ATSC spec in use.

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post #155 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Alfredo_Vic View Post
Maybe I missed something, but I don´t really see how VRR will matter that much for console gaming next gen? Sony/MS will probably crank up all visuals possible with a 30/[email protected] target (on the majority of coming releases), as they are doing current gen.
Sub framerates below or between 30/60fps could possible benefit with VRR to avoid stutter although.
Bolded for emphasis, but that's basically 100% of the reason to be excited about VRR. It means games can have unlocked frame rates while still maintaining smooth gameplay.
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post #156 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by nesto719 View Post
In the meantime broadcast still can’t do full bandwidth 1080 🤦🏻*♂️🤦🏻*♂️
People still watch broadcast and cable TV?
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post #157 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by bjaurelio View Post
I hold onto my TVs for a long time. I'll be upgrading from a 2011 50" plasma. I want eARC and VRR so I can go Xbox to TV to receiver with eARC. My budget finally works out to get a new TV this year. Top emission would be really nice, but I can't keep waiting another year. I've been eyeing an upgrade to OLED since 2016. Prices are finally low enough for me to get a 65", and the 2019 OLED should last me another 6-8 years before my next upgrade.
do we know for sure that the 2019 lineup will be bottom emission? i thought I read somewhere that 8K needs to be top emission panels. either way i'm hoping there are panel improvements across the board. bye bye banding, probably wishful thinking at this point.

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post #158 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 05:10 AM
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A few notes on VRR.

Some expressed their wishes for LG to bring VRR capability to 2018 series sets. That is not possible, according to an interview the guys at Les Numeriques had with the LG Electronics VP of Marketing and Communications and the Director of the TV division last year. The reason was not that LG Electronics is not able to, after all they are making FreeSync monitor displays. The problem lies in the Tcon (Timing Controller) of the OLED panel that LG Display manufactures, and which is not able to drive the panel with a variable refresh rate. (LG Electronics - the TV manufacturer, is not the same entity as LG Display - the panel manufacturer)

The Tcon chips (there can be more than one on the Tcon board) are responsible for driving the components that turn on and off the individual pixels on the panel. When you buy a panel, you get the panel and its custom Tcon board attached to it.

That's why no TV manufacturer that used LG OLED panels was able to offer VRR as a feature on their 2018 sets, the panel electronics simply did not allow to be driven that way. And that's why VRR can not be enabled on 2018 sets by a software upgrade, as it's a hardware limitation.


Which means, that now we know LG Display did bring at least one change to their panels this year, the Tcon and the panel drivers must have been changed to be able to drive the pixels with variable refresh rates. And maybe that required some changes to the sandwich structure of the OLED panel itself.

And this also means that VRR will likely be present not only on LG OLED TVs this year, but also on the sets of some other TV manufacturers using the LG OLED panel.
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post #159 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 06:33 AM
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HDMI 2.1 cables are supposed to be called "Ultra High Speed HDMI".

Besides the Belkin one, I also know about this one which is also certified: Club 3D Ultra High Speed HDMI 2.1 2m CAC-1372. Can be found on Amazon.
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post #160 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Redmist View Post
It sounds fantastic on paper but I'm still not convinced that LG is in the same league as Panasonic, Sony and even Samsung when it comes to video processing. They certainly seem to be trying though so I wish them the best and look forward to reading reviews of their 2019 line-up.
Without a doubt, we will have to see how it plays out when they are released in March/April.... I suspect baby steps but well see.
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post #161 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 07:51 AM
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do we know for sure that the 2019 lineup will be bottom emission? i thought I read somewhere that 8K needs to be top emission panels. either way i'm hoping there are panel improvements across the board. bye bye banding, probably wishful thinking at this point.
According to the article "There are no major changes to the actual OLED panel, produced by LG Display, but LG explains that will introduce an improved anti-reflective filter this year." Maybe the 8K will be different but that's according to the article.
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post #162 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 08:49 AM
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People still watch broadcast and cable TV?

Yes, hundreds of millions every day...
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post #163 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 09:01 AM
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Looks like we get every technology except 3D.
I keep hoping for that every year.

I know 3D is basically dead, but with every company having dropped it, I'm surprised that at least one of them doesn't put it in at least one model. It would literally have no competition, and all 3D supporters would buy that model.
3D on the 88” Z9 would be awesome. I guess the 3D filter would cut the brightness down a bit though.
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post #164 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by boe View Post
According to the article "There are no major changes to the actual OLED panel, produced by LG Display, but LG explains that will introduce an improved anti-reflective filter this year." Maybe the 8K will be different but that's according to the article.
that's disappointing.

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post #165 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 09:34 AM
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3D on the 88” Z9 would be awesome. I guess the 3D filter would cut the brightness down a bit though.
Yeah - everything that made 3D suck on a home TV is getting fixed this year or next
1. Higher throughput HDMI
2. Faster refresh rates
3. Higher resolution
4. Brighter screens
5. BIGGER SCREENS!!!!!

OK that doesn't fix the glasses thing but everything else will finally be addressable. If they had waited until this year or next to release 3D on TV people would actually probably consider it.
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post #166 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 09:51 AM
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Yeah - everything that made 3D suck on a home TV is getting fixed this year or next
1. Higher throughput HDMI
2. Faster refresh rates
3. Higher resolution
4. Brighter screens
5. BIGGER SCREENS!!!!!

OK that doesn't fix the glasses thing but everything else will finally be addressable. If they had waited until this year or next to release 3D on TV people would actually probably consider it.
Except how many people would have been able to afford the 3D with brighter, bigger screens? Pretty sure they had bigger, brighter screens 5 years ago and not everyone leaped on the 3D hype.
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post #167 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 09:59 AM
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What would be the point of paying a ridiculous amount of money for the 88 iuch 8k tv? This is coming from someone who is going to be buying a new gpu that supports hdmi 2.1 and very excited to be playing all pc games as close to 4k 120fps as possible in OLED quality... I think you would need to be worth at least 10 million to pay 80k or whatever insane price they are asking for to justify the cost... Would lg even cover burn in
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post #168 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 10:12 AM
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Except how many people would have been able to afford the 3D with brighter, bigger screens? Pretty sure they had bigger, brighter screens 5 years ago and not everyone leaped on the 3D hype.
The prices have dropped on bigger TVs significantly and even cheaper TVs are brighter than they were.
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post #169 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by akadennis View Post
do we know for sure that the 2019 lineup will be bottom emission? i thought I read somewhere that 8K needs to be top emission panels. either way i'm hoping there are panel improvements across the board. bye bye banding, probably wishful thinking at this point.
Yes, the 8K 88" Z9 is using bottom-emission (I believe ther is a statement from LG around the time of IFA).

Top-emission will be needed for LG to deliver smaller 8K panels (and 65" was explocitly mentioned).

For 2018, we're only going to have the 88Z9 as LG dips their toe into 8K, but next year will probably be they 'year of 8K' when they offer a more complete lineup (and based on top-emission).

It's a bit too early to be speaking about 2020, but I'm predicting we'll see 88", 77/75" and possible also 65" (actual launch may depend on how successful Samsung is selling their 65" 8K QLEDs this year) 8K WOLEDs from LG, all based on top-emission and delivering at least 2019 peak brightness levels if not more.

I'm also hoping/expecting that we'll see an improved backplane that delivers 120Hz refresh rate for 8K panels (and also hopefully a native refresh rate of 240Hz for 4K WOLEDs ).
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Of course they can. 1080P is in the ATSC 1.0 spec.

Low frame rate only, so not useful. 1080i is the exact same quality when deinterlaced with some sophistication.
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post #171 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by stama View Post
A few notes on VRR.

Some expressed their wishes for LG to bring VRR capability to 2018 series sets. That is not possible, according to an interview the guys at Les Numeriques had with the LG Electronics VP of Marketing and Communications and the Director of the TV division last year. The reason was not that LG Electronics is not able to, after all they are making FreeSync monitor displays. The problem lies in the Tcon (Timing Controller) of the OLED panel that LG Display manufactures, and which is not able to drive the panel with a variable refresh rate. (LG Electronics - the TV manufacturer, is not the same entity as LG Display - the panel manufacturer)

The Tcon chips (there can be more than one on the Tcon board) are responsible for driving the components that turn on and off the individual pixels on the panel. When you buy a panel, you get the panel and its custom Tcon board attached to it.

That's why no TV manufacturer that used LG OLED panels was able to offer VRR as a feature on their 2018 sets, the panel electronics simply did not allow to be driven that way. And that's why VRR can not be enabled on 2018 sets by a software upgrade, as it's a hardware limitation.


Which means, that now we know LG Display did bring at least one change to their panels this year, the Tcon and the panel drivers must have been changed to be able to drive the pixels with variable refresh rates. And maybe that required some changes to the sandwich structure of the OLED panel itself.

And this also means that VRR will likely be present not only on LG OLED TVs this year, but also on the sets of some other TV manufacturers using the LG OLED panel.
I believe that LG has had split-column refresh since they first introduced 120Hz 4K panels, but they have always been 'hard-coded' at the panel level to do full-frame refresh.

From their first forray into dlivering BFI last year (and all the limitation that suffered from), it finally occurred to LG that by seperatong control of the two half-columns so that new puxel data could be written into a row of one half while pixel data could be reset to black within a row of the other half, they would have an easy and effective way to deliver an effective refresh rate of 240Hz which would allow much better implementation of BFI.

That change, allowing seperate write and reset operations into both halves of the array in parallel, would require a change to the TCON controllers (as you've said).

So the underlying pixel design (and array design) of the WOLED panels may very well be dentical to 2018 (we'll need to await close-up pics of subpixels to determine whether they have further refined relative subpixel sizes or not), the WOLED stack itself has probably not changed (this is what LGD usually refers to when they talk about changes to the panel), but the control signals have almost certainly changed (meaning you could not retrofit a 2019 panel into a 2018 WOLED TV).

It would make total sense that those new TCONs needd to support the split-column 240Hz effective refresh rate are also where the support for VRR would be located.

In terms of LGDs lingo, the 2019 panel and 2018 panels are identical except for the modified antireflective coating. That means that, except for the impact of that new coating, peak brightness, aging/burn-in rate, color gamut, etc... should all be the same.

2020, when LG will hopefully have moved to top-emission, is when we should next expect major changes to the WOLED panel itself. At a minimum, we're going to see significant increases in lifetime (and time to burn-in), we'll hopefully also see increases in peak brightness, it's a good opportunity for LG to deploy changes LG has teed-up to the WOLED stack itself (TADF?) and since top-emission dictates changes to the IGZO backplane, I'm now predicting we'll see a doubling of backplane speed in 2020,

On 8K panels, doubling of the IGZO backplane will mean that the existing split-column architecture will support 120Hz refresh (identical to the 2019 4K WOLEDS). On 4K panels, it is more likely to mean going back from a split-column refresh to a single-column refresh (which will cut the number of TCONs for 4K TVs in half and reduce cost).
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post #172 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 11:55 AM
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I’m comfortable with upgrading to the C9 this year or if Sony has an equivalent.
I could wait another year for top emission but I’ve waited to upgrade for years. My temp display is a TCL 6. The inclusion of HDMI 2.1 is perfect for future proofing. Usually I upgrade my display with new game consoles but that’s looking like holiday 2020. I can potentially upgrade again in mid to late 2021 and by then the kinks in top emission will be ironed out.
Exciting times ahead!


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post #173 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 12:30 PM
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People still watch broadcast and cable TV?
Of course. the majority of people do in the US.

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post #174 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 12:34 PM
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Low frame rate only, so not useful. 1080i is the exact same quality when deinterlaced with some sophistication.
The vast majority of 1080P and higher content is only 30P or lower. And the ATSC 1.0 specs allows up to 1080P30.

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People still watch broadcast and cable TV?
Of course they do, if you like sports that is how you watch it! What do you watch just movies????
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post #176 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 03:44 PM
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People still watch broadcast and cable TV?
Right? Now we get a whole new round of posts about why it looks so bad on my brand new 8K TV.


I know a lot of people still watch this stuff but they need to accept that it is garbage in garbage out and stop wasting so much time trying to make it look better.

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post #177 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 04:14 PM
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Right? Now we get a whole new round of posts about why it looks so bad on my brand new 8K TV.


I know a lot of people still watch this stuff but they need to accept that it is garbage in garbage out and stop wasting so much time trying to make it look better.
OTA can be far superior to cable, so please don't lump them together. Given the choice between streaming a live NFL game through Amazon Prime or watching it OTA (NBC or ABC), OTA is superior (at least here in the Bay Area).

And before you go blaming my internet service, I have dedicated 1G fiber that consistently delivers speed test results in excess of 900Mbps...
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post #178 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 05:14 PM
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I am in the same boat.. I am concerned about waiting until next year and worried there will be issues with the first yesr of a new production process

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post #179 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
The vast majority of 1080P and higher content is only 30P or lower. And the ATSC 1.0 specs allows up to 1080P30.

You need 60i/60p for commercials, news, sports, etc. Theoretically you could switch between 1080p and 1080i, but that would probably cause some receivers fits. And there's no benefit, because good deinterlacers can losslessly convert low frame rate 1080i into 1080p. Just like you can get 480p out of DVDs even though all DVDs are 480i.

Last edited by Luke M; 01-05-2019 at 06:20 PM.
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post #180 of 977 Old 01-05-2019, 06:58 PM
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So, when I got my LG 65" C8 back in the summer of 2018, I turned on TruMotion and in the VERY FIRST SCENE tested I noticed obvious motion artifacts. What was even more concerning is that the scene was just a random one of a movie I was watching, and I wasn't looking for anything specific. After trying TruMotion in various settings over a few days, I finally turned it off for good. LG's motion handling as of 2018 just isn't very impressive.

Here's hoping for an improvement with the new chip, but I am definitely not optimistic.

I'm happy to wait for a reasonably priced 77" in 2023 with Alpha 12 chip or whatever.
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