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post #31 of 84 Old 01-07-2019, 09:05 PM
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I am annoyed by this.

I waited through 2018 for the year-end pricing and then didn't buy because we, honestly, weren't home much.

And now we gotta wait till 2020 because, well, it's going to be a big leap.

I agree with @fafrd that the 2019's are really, really nice upgrades. But I can't justify buying a TV more than about once every 6 years. I can't see being happy with a bottom-emission OLED once the top-emission models are out and I have a functional TV that is acceptable for just about everything in the evening. It's pretty brutal in the daytime, but then it was like that when it was new too. (And we have blackout shades.)

#FirstWorldProblems
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post #32 of 84 Old 01-08-2019, 02:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
At this point, I'd say it's a near-certainty that in 2020 we'll see 65", 75/77", and 88" 8K WOLEDs based on too-emission technology (and a new IGZO bsckplane): https://www.oled-info.com/lg-display...oleds-ces-2019
You seem like a very knowledgeable member and I would like to know your opinion on an argument I raised (I made it a thread but then it got merged). This what I had to say regarding the 2019 models.

To summarize I was basically highlighting the fact that the 77inch W9 and 77inch C9 seem like such a missed opportunity. At such screen size and LG trying to push HDMI 2.1 with them, I feel as though 8K support was a must. It boggles my mind that they included it in a 75inch LED and not their 77inch OLEDs. At 77inch what stopped them from including 8K, we are paying a premium for these TVs after all so how are they supposed to fully utilize HDMI 2.1 when 8K can matter for such size be it through upscaling or native (the funny thing is the 75inch 8K LED will be cheaper / its just a jab to the consumer as they wanna keep that door closed to have more marketing power for 2020 when they introduce 8K in even their 65inch offerings). Theoretically, if you're not into gaming or sports the W9 and C9 seem like a waste of money when the 77inch W8 and C8 will go further down in pricing (creating a really sweet deal for those seeking the real-estate of 77inches coming from 65inches or below / Surely 77inch screen size at a lower cost sounds more appealing than 77inch HMDI 2.1 tvs with no 8K? Especially when you consider the lack of content available that utilizes HDMI 2.1. Then there's the whole no Top-Emission panels for 2019 which I feel gives the 77inch 2018 models the edge over the 2019 ones even further. I just don't get this whole let us future proof by getting an LG 2019 model now that they include HDMI 2.1 when by the time content for that technology matures we might have superior offerings to OLED such as MicroLED or self/electro-emissive QD, or heck at least QD-enhanced OLED.
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post #33 of 84 Old 01-08-2019, 02:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
I am annoyed by this.

I waited through 2018 for the year-end pricing and then didn't buy because we, honestly, weren't home much.

And now we gotta wait till 2020 because, well, it's going to be a big leap.

I agree with @fafrd that the 2019's are really, really nice upgrades. But I can't justify buying a TV more than about once every 6 years. I can't see being happy with a bottom-emission OLED once the top-emission models are out and I have a functional TV that is acceptable for just about everything in the evening. It's pretty brutal in the daytime, but then it was like that when it was new too. (And we have blackout shades.)

#FirstWorldProblems

Then you're going to keep waiting upon hearing the first batch of top emission OLED panels has issues - of which will be fixed in 2021 (the so called 'tock' year).

Remember - you only live once.
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post #34 of 84 Old 01-08-2019, 05:08 AM
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LGD 65" Top Emission WOLED (for 2020 release)

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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
First, the 2019 WOLEDs are not merely a 'software improvement' of the 2018 WOLEDs - going from a 120 Hz refresh rate to 240Hz Effective Refresh Rate required changes to the backplane. In addition, the subpixel design has changed to further reinforce red (the 'Phillips' panel). The 2018 WOLEDs will never be able to support 120Hz BFI because they lack the hardware to do so.



Second, in terms of top-emission, what we know for certain is that Top Emission will result in an increased aperature ratio be 200-300% and this is certain to mean 3-4 times the lifetime and burn-in immunity of the 2018 WOLEDs (at similar brightness levels).



The second thing we know for certain is that the IGZO backplane is going to change to support top-emission and a significant amount of space will be freed up to support larger transistors and communication lines (Data, Row Select).



How that freed-up space will be used is anyone's guess at this stage, but it's a pretty safe bet that at least on 8K panels, it will be used to double the refresh speed to the 120Hz Native / 240Hz Effective Refresh Rates that the 4K WOLEDs are delivering this year.



Larger drive transistors may also be used to increase peak brightness, but this will also increase power consumption, and we don't know whether LG is already close to the limits of power consumption globally in terms of total power draw or locally in tems of heat generation.



So it is unclear whether top-emission will result in increased peak output or whether that will need to wait for breakthroughs in increasing EQE (Electro-Quantum-Efficiency).



Top emission does not directly help in BFI mode, but if the space freed-up by top-emission allows LGD to inrease the 4K IGZO backplane speed from 240Hz Effective Refresh to 240Hz Native Refresh, 120Hz BFI of essentially any % between 0.5% and 99.5% (in 0.5% / single-line increments) could be supported (with proper hardware and software controls).


Well you might be right about HDR performance on the 2019 line.
John Archer has some very good impressions of the C9 and E9. Compares HDR to the late model Philips — LG’s best yet.

This is great news, upgrade this year and wait until top emission gets sorted out.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc...t-impressions/


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post #35 of 84 Old 01-08-2019, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam97 View Post
You seem like a very knowledgeable member and I would like to know your opinion on an argument I raised (I made it a thread but then it got merged). This what I had to say regarding the 2019 models.

To summarize I was basically highlighting the fact that the 77inch W9 and 77inch C9 seem like such a missed opportunity. At such screen size and LG trying to push HDMI 2.1 with them, I feel as though 8K support was a must. It boggles my mind that they included it in a 75inch LED and not their 77inch OLEDs. At 77inch what stopped them from including 8K, we are paying a premium for these TVs after all so how are they supposed to fully utilize HDMI 2.1 when 8K can matter for such size be it through upscaling or native (the funny thing is the 75inch 8K LED will be cheaper / its just a jab to the consumer as they wanna keep that door closed to have more marketing power for 2020 when they introduce 8K in even their 65inch offerings). Theoretically, if you're not into gaming or sports the W9 and C9 seem like a waste of money when the 77inch W8 and C8 will go further down in pricing (creating a really sweet deal for those seeking the real-estate of 77inches coming from 65inches or below / Surely 77inch screen size at a lower cost sounds more appealing than 77inch HMDI 2.1 tvs with no 8K? Especially when you consider the lack of content available that utilizes HDMI 2.1. Then there's the whole no Top-Emission panels for 2019 which I feel gives the 77inch 2018 models the edge over the 2019 ones even further. I just don't get this whole let us future proof by getting an LG 2019 model now that they include HDMI 2.1 when by the time content for that technology matures we might have superior offerings to OLED such as MicroLED or self/electro-emissive QD, or heck at least QD-enhanced OLED.
For 8K 65" (and probably also 75/77"), LG needs top-emission.

LG succeeded to (just barely) deliver an 88" 8K WOLED based on their existing bottom-emission technology (and we don't even know what peak brightness levels it will support yet).

Complicating the story is that peak-brightness can always be increased at the expense of lifetime and risk of burn-in, so LG may be counting on the fact that whoever shells out $15K for an 88" 8K WOLED this first year is not going to be using it to watch hundreds of hours of CNN per year .

The 88Z9 is a showpiece for bragging rights and to show that LG and WOLED is ready for the 8K wave, but that wave is not happening this year. A very small number of 88Z9s will be sold to the well-heeled while LG prepares for the real 8K assault in 2020 (with the top-emission that LG Display is already demonstrating and which is the subject of this thread).

Once LG has their top-emission technology in production, it's a interesting question about what will happen with the lineup, so I'll take advantage of your post to speculate what we may see in 2020:

49B0 4K?, this long-rumored down-market exansion could finally happen in 2020...
55B0 4K, lowest-cost entry-level OLED (unless LG also introduces the 49B0 )
65B0 4K, ditto at 65"

55C0 4K, LG's bread-and butter and one of the main runners, may get down to $1000 by November 2020
65C0 4K, ditto at 65" and should get comfortably under $2000 by November 2020
75/77C0 4K, LG may use top-emission to replace 77" with 75", but this is LG's primary volume growth driver and I doubt they give up the market share they have gained at 75/77" by going exclusively to 8K - should reach $5K by Nov. '20...

55E0 4K, LG's premium 4K offering (with integrated sound) by 2020
65E0 4K, ditto @ 65"
(there was no 77E8, I doubt we see a 77E9, and also no 77E0 - most customers shelling out for 77" OLED have dedicated sound systems...)

65Z0 8K, the prototype being shown is the subject of this thread - this will be the entry-level 8K offfering
75/77Z0 8k, pretty obvious part of the lineup next year
88Z0 8K, hopefully we'll see 120Hz refresh rates in the entire 8K lineup by 2020

65W0 8K I'm pretty sure the wallpaper series will be exclusively 8K by next year...
75/77W0 8K, ditto for this size class
88W0 8K?, If there are no technical challangs to hanging an 88" WOLED screen, we may see this expansion next year...

65R0 8K, again, pretty sure this goes exclusively 8K by 2020 - for the price LG will be charging, why not?
75/77R0 8K?, if there are no technical challanges to extending the rollable design to 75/77", we should see this by 2020
88R0 8K?, ditto at 88"

In summary, I think it's likely we'll see the 4K lineup settle on the B, C, and E-Series at 55", 65", and probably also 75/77" screen sizes, while the Z, W, and R-Series move exclusively to Top-Emission-Based 8K at screen sizes of 65", 75/77", and 88".

Longer-term, it's very likely that we'll also see a 98" 8K WOLED offering, but probaly not in 2020...
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post #36 of 84 Old 01-08-2019, 11:42 AM
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And when are we expected to see panels out of 10.5G which should drasticly reduce price? 2021 is optimistic, while 2022 is realistic?
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post #37 of 84 Old 01-08-2019, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AmonRaa View Post
And when are we expected to see panels out of 10.5G which should drasticly reduce price? 2021 is optimistic, while 2022 is realistic?
The 10.5G fab will deliver significant reductions in cost/price, but only for 65" and 75" WOLEDs.

55" WOLEDs are lready optimized for manufacturing on the existing 8.5G fabs.

The cost of a TV involves more than just the panel itself (the controller represents a significant fixed cost which is independant of screen size), so TV prices will not decline by as much as pane prices, but I've estimated that once fully-ramped into production, the 10.5G fab should be able to deliver 65" WOLED panels at ~113% the cost of 8.5G 55" WOLED panels and 75" WOLED panels at ~150% the cost of todays 8.5G 55" WOLED panels.

Since today's 65" panels cost 200% the cost of a 55" panel and today's 77" panels cost 300% the cost of a 55" panel, this estimate translates to:

44% reduction in the cost of 65" WOLED panels
50% reduction in the cost of 75" WOLED panels versus today's 77" WOLED panes

$1000 65" WOLED TVs and $1500 75" WOLED TVs will happen - it's jus a question of how long it will take us to get there...

The 10.5G plant was supposed to to start ramping up next year and be in production by 2021, but there may now be some delay on that schedule. We should learn more in LG's Q4 2018 Earnings Call in a month or so...
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post #38 of 84 Old 01-08-2019, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
For 8K 65" (and probably also 75/77"), LG needs top-emission.

LG succeeded to (just barely) deliver an 88" 8K WOLED based on their existing bottom-emission technology (and we don't even know what peak brightness levels it will support yet).

Complicating the story is that peak-brightness can always be increased at the expense of lifetime and risk of burn-in, so LG may be counting on the fact that whoever shells out $15K for an 88" 8K WOLED this first year is not going to be using it to watch hundreds of hours of CNN per year .

The 88Z9 is a showpiece for bragging rights and to show that LG and WOLED is ready for the 8K wave, but that wave is not happening this year. A very small number of 88Z9s will be sold to the well-heeled while LG prepares for the real 8K assault in 2020 (with the top-emission that LG Display is already demonstrating and which is the subject of this thread).

Once LG has their top-emission technology in production, it's a interesting question about what will happen with the lineup, so I'll take advantage of your post to speculate what we may see in 2020:

49B0 4K?, this long-rumored down-market exansion could finally happen in 2020...
55B0 4K, lowest-cost entry-level OLED (unless LG also introduces the 49B0 )
65B0 4K, ditto at 65"

55C0 4K, LG's bread-and butter and one of the main runners, may get down to $1000 by November 2020
65C0 4K, ditto at 65" and should get comfortably under $2000 by November 2020
75/77C0 4K, LG may use top-emission to replace 77" with 75", but this is LG's primary volume growth driver and I doubt they give up the market share they have gained at 75/77" by going exclusively to 8K - should reach $5K by Nov. '20...

55E0 4K, LG's premium 4K offering (with integrated sound) by 2020
65E0 4K, ditto @ 65"
(there was no 77E8, I doubt we see a 77E9, and also no 77E0 - most customers shelling out for 77" OLED have dedicated sound systems...)

65Z0 8K, the prototype being shown is the subject of this thread - this will be the entry-level 8K offfering
75/77Z0 8k, pretty obvious part of the lineup next year
88Z0 8K, hopefully we'll see 120Hz refresh rates in the entire 8K lineup by 2020

65W0 8K I'm pretty sure the wallpaper series will be exclusively 8K by next year...
75/77W0 8K, ditto for this size class
88W0 8K?, If there are no technical challangs to hanging an 88" WOLED screen, we may see this expansion next year...

65R0 8K, again, pretty sure this goes exclusively 8K by 2020 - for the price LG will be charging, why not?
75/77R0 8K?, if there are no technical challanges to extending the rollable design to 75/77", we should see this by 2020
88R0 8K?, ditto at 88"

In summary, I think it's likely we'll see the 4K lineup settle on the B, C, and E-Series at 55", 65", and probably also 75/77" screen sizes, while the Z, W, and R-Series move exclusively to Top-Emission-Based 8K at screen sizes of 65", 75/77", and 88".

Longer-term, it's very likely that we'll also see a 98" 8K WOLED offering, but probaly not in 2020...
That's quite the line-up though, are we sure there is demand for all of those

I predict the following for 2020

55-inch and 65-inch B models 4K with the processor of 2019 TVs

55-inch and 65-inch C models 4K with new processor

65-inch and 77-inch (new letter) models with 8K and new processor (might include new crystal sound technology)

I see them discontinuing the E tbh which leads me to believe that ^ are getting the E in their name if crystal sound is implemented

65-inch and maybe 75-inch R models with 8K

I also see them discontinuing the 65-inch wallpaper model and instead opting for 77-inch and 85-inch with 8K

Finally, a follow up to the 88-inch Z9

A total of 10 or 11 TV
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post #39 of 84 Old 01-08-2019, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
I am annoyed by this.

I waited through 2018 for the year-end pricing and then didn't buy because we, honestly, weren't home much.

And now we gotta wait till 2020 because, well, it's going to be a big leap.

I agree with @fafrd that the 2019's are really, really nice upgrades. But I can't justify buying a TV more than about once every 6 years. I can't see being happy with a bottom-emission OLED once the top-emission models are out and I have a functional TV that is acceptable for just about everything in the evening. It's pretty brutal in the daytime, but then it was like that when it was new too. (And we have blackout shades.)

#FirstWorldProblems
This 12 or 18 month wait is going to be brutal.

Fortunately I only recently started looking into upgrading, and my current television and projector are working perfectly.

Not buying until top emission is in the wild, and the bugs have all been sorted out.
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post #40 of 84 Old 01-08-2019, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
For 8K 65" (and probably also 75/77"), LG needs top-emission.

LG succeeded to (just barely) deliver an 88" 8K WOLED based on their existing bottom-emission technology (and we don't even know what peak brightness levels it will support yet).

Complicating the story is that peak-brightness can always be increased at the expense of lifetime and risk of burn-in, so LG may be counting on the fact that whoever shells out $15K for an 88" 8K WOLED this first year is not going to be using it to watch hundreds of hours of CNN per year .

The 88Z9 is a showpiece for bragging rights and to show that LG and WOLED is ready for the 8K wave, but that wave is not happening this year. A very small number of 88Z9s will be sold to the well-heeled while LG prepares for the real 8K assault in 2020 (with the top-emission that LG Display is already demonstrating and which is the subject of this thread).

Once LG has their top-emission technology in production, it's a interesting question about what will happen with the lineup, so I'll take advantage of your post to speculate what we may see in 2020:

49B0 4K?, this long-rumored down-market exansion could finally happen in 2020...
55B0 4K, lowest-cost entry-level OLED (unless LG also introduces the 49B0 )
65B0 4K, ditto at 65"

55C0 4K, LG's bread-and butter and one of the main runners, may get down to $1000 by November 2020
65C0 4K, ditto at 65" and should get comfortably under $2000 by November 2020
75/77C0 4K, LG may use top-emission to replace 77" with 75", but this is LG's primary volume growth driver and I doubt they give up the market share they have gained at 75/77" by going exclusively to 8K - should reach $5K by Nov. '20...

55E0 4K, LG's premium 4K offering (with integrated sound) by 2020
65E0 4K, ditto @ 65"
(there was no 77E8, I doubt we see a 77E9, and also no 77E0 - most customers shelling out for 77" OLED have dedicated sound systems...)

65Z0 8K, the prototype being shown is the subject of this thread - this will be the entry-level 8K offfering
75/77Z0 8k, pretty obvious part of the lineup next year
88Z0 8K, hopefully we'll see 120Hz refresh rates in the entire 8K lineup by 2020

65W0 8K I'm pretty sure the wallpaper series will be exclusively 8K by next year...
75/77W0 8K, ditto for this size class
88W0 8K?, If there are no technical challangs to hanging an 88" WOLED screen, we may see this expansion next year...

65R0 8K, again, pretty sure this goes exclusively 8K by 2020 - for the price LG will be charging, why not?
75/77R0 8K?, if there are no technical challanges to extending the rollable design to 75/77", we should see this by 2020
88R0 8K?, ditto at 88"

In summary, I think it's likely we'll see the 4K lineup settle on the B, C, and E-Series at 55", 65", and probably also 75/77" screen sizes, while the Z, W, and R-Series move exclusively to Top-Emission-Based 8K at screen sizes of 65", 75/77", and 88".

Longer-term, it's very likely that we'll also see a 98" 8K WOLED offering, but probaly not in 2020...
More licensees doing rollable and larger rollables on the roadmap. Also, 10.5G startup in mid-2021.

Quote:
Kwon said, "Although there will be a difference in viewpoints, we are planning to expand rollable products targeting a few companies." "Whether rollable TVs can be priced at a level that consumers can easily accommodate is an initial proliferation "We will secure technological mass production and speed up our cost competitiveness so that we will be able to record the same sales volume as LG Signature," he said.

Accordingly, we are preparing for the OLED panel supply issue ahead of time. Kwon said, "The OLED production volume will increase significantly in the second half of the year, and if LG Display starts 10.5G in the second quarter of 2021, the production will increase rapidly for the second consecutive year. "We are going to increase the weight of 8K to 88 inches, and we are considering a large rollerblad as an alternative," he said.
http://www.zdnet.co.kr/view/?no=20190109140127
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post #41 of 84 Old 01-08-2019, 10:37 PM
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awesome if this happens personally ill wait for the second year of top emissive. seems like the first year or 2 of a next technology there are a few bugs they need to work out.
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post #42 of 84 Old 01-09-2019, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stl8k View Post
More licensees doing rollable and larger rollables on the roadmap. Also, 10.5G startup in mid-2021.

Quote:
Kwon said, "Although there will be a difference in viewpoints, we are planning to expand rollable products targeting a few companies." "Whether rollable TVs can be priced at a level that consumers can easily accommodate is an initial proliferation "We will secure technological mass production and speed up our cost competitiveness so that we will be able to record the same sales volume as LG Signature," he said.

Accordingly, we are preparing for the OLED panel supply issue ahead of time. Kwon said, "The OLED production volume will increase significantly in the second half of the year, and if LG Display starts 10.5G in the second quarter of 2021, the production will increase rapidly for the second consecutive year. "We are going to increase the weight of 8K to 88 inches, and we are considering a large rollerblad as an alternative," he said.

http://www.zdnet.co.kr/view/?no=20190109140127
Notice that on 10.5G starting in Q221, Kwon did say 'if'.

The original schedule was to start ramping 10.5G WOLED production before the end of 2019, so the 'delay' seems real (we'll know more from the earnings call in a month+...).

For 2020, looks like LG will have ~2X their current production capacity (with Guangzhou 8.5G in full production) and that will need to hold them for at least 18 months while they drag their herls on the 10.5G plant. Hopefully they will announce conversion of another 8.5G LCD fab (which would help mitigate the delay.

There are several rationales for the delay in the 10.5G fab, WOLED printing perhaps being the most likely (and Samsung's QD-BOLED, which is likely to use printing, being another).

This delay increases the liklihood that LGD sticks to 77" panels for another year or two.

It also means a delay in the arrival $1000 65" WOLEDs and $1500 75" WOLEDs.

But no impact on 88" WOLED production, those are optimally produced on 8.5G lines...

And on rollable, I can easily believe LG will license out the core tech - heck, they may even OEM the entire rollable assembly. Instead of purchasing 'panels', Sony and Panasonic purchase 'rolls' . It's a huuuuge differentiator. Even my brother who knows nothing about TVs called me last night to ask whether I'd seen LGs rollable TV.

LG wants to get the manufacturing cost of rollable OLED down as far as they can get is as fast as they can get it and they want as many premium brands selling rollable WOLED TVs as they can get. This takes them into territory where LCD cannot follow (as opposed to the curved TVs of several years ago).

The final quote referring to 88" and 'rollerblade' is interesting. Perhaps LG is planning to scale the current solution to 88" or perhaps there are mechanical constraints that make the 65" rolling solution non-viable for 88" screens. 'Rollerblade' could mean almost anything - a pull-down screen?
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post #43 of 84 Old 01-09-2019, 11:15 AM
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This is a very informative thread. With all the potential delays in ramp up I'm wondering how that will affect the MSRP of this year's 88" OLED. Will they try to price it competitively with Samsung and Sony or will it be an astronomically priced tv?
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post #44 of 84 Old 01-09-2019, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
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This is a very informative thread. With all the potential delays in ramp up I'm wondering how that will affect the MSRP of this year's 88" OLED. Will they try to price it competitively with Samsung and Sony or will it be an astronomically priced tv?
As I just posted, the 10.5G manufacturing line has nothing to do with 88" WOLEDs - it's optimized for 65" and 75" WOLEDs.

The 88" is currently manufactured on the existing 8.5G production lines and will continue to bemanufactured on 8.5G lines after the 10.5G fab is up and running (especially since all 65" and 77/75" WOLED production will be moved off of the 8.5G lines once 10.5G is ready...).

As far as 88Z9 pricing, I don't believe LG has any incentive to sell many of these in 2019, so I expect it to be priced higher than Samsung's 85" 8K QLED MSRP of $15K - an MSRP of $20K or even $25K would not shock me at all.

2020 will the year LG launches 8K WOLEDs 'for real' with a full line-up including 88", 75/77", and 65", so by 2020 I expect LGs 8K pricing to track Samsung's 8K QLED pricing much more closely...
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post #45 of 84 Old 01-09-2019, 11:29 AM
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There will be more LCD to OLED conversion and we will see 48" panels soon.


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LG to Use MMG to Expand Output of Gen 8.5 Fab
December 10, 2018

Sisa Journal, a Korea online news source, reported that LGD will be adding a 48” OLED TV panel in product line-up along with 55”, 65” and 77” OLED TV panel, applying MMG on December 5. The report said LGD recently decided to build pilot MMG line, converting small OLED line in Paju, Korea. The G4.5 OLED line in Paju will be converted to a G8.5 OLED to implement MMG method. LGD is currently reviewing production of three 65” and two 55” and three 65” and two 48” OLED TV panels from the G8.5. This MMG production will be also implemented to Guangzhou fab followed by MMG pilot production in Paju line. The MMG production will improve efficiency of 65”, 55” and 48” panels from G8.5. It is expected that not only 65” and 55” but also 48” OLED TV panel production will grow as well at under $1000 price range. The following figure shows an MMG configuration with 3 65” and 2 55” panels. Although there is sufficient space to accommodate 55” panels LG has chosen to pattern 48” panels.
https://www.oled-a.org/lg-to-use-mmg...03_121018.html
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post #46 of 84 Old 01-09-2019, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMA View Post
There will be more LCD to OLED conversion and we will see 48" panels soon.



https://www.oled-a.org/lg-to-use-mmg...03_121018.html
Good find - thanks. MMG increases the efficiency of 8.5G fabs manufacturing 65" WOLEDs to near-10.5G levels.

The same should also be true of 77" 8.5G production (though LG may take the opportunity to introduce 75" WOLEDs).

And using the leftover space to introduce 48" panels is smart - they can finally move down-market and those 3 48" panels (or 2 55" panels) effectively reduce the cost of 8.5G 65" or 75/77" panels by 33%...

This new fab conversion probably translates to more capacity kicking in before the end of 2020 and the 10.5G delay is probably motivated by LG wanting to consider the strategy of continuing to convert LCD fabs to WOLED until 10.5G printing is ready for prime-time...

We'll hopefully learn more in the earnings call in a month+.
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post #47 of 84 Old 01-09-2019, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Notice that on 10.5G starting in Q221, Kwon did say 'if'.

The original schedule was to start ramping 10.5G WOLED production before the end of 2019, so the 'delay' seems real (we'll know more from the earnings call in a month+...).

For 2020, looks like LG will have ~2X their current production capacity (with Guangzhou 8.5G in full production) and that will need to hold them for at least 18 months while they drag their herls on the 10.5G plant. Hopefully they will announce conversion of another 8.5G LCD fab (which would help mitigate the delay.

There are several rationales for the delay in the 10.5G fab, WOLED printing perhaps being the most likely (and Samsung's QD-BOLED, which is likely to use printing, being another).

This delay increases the liklihood that LGD sticks to 77" panels for another year or two.

It also means a delay in the arrival $1000 65" WOLEDs and $1500 75" WOLEDs.

But no impact on 88" WOLED production, those are optimally produced on 8.5G lines...

And on rollable, I can easily believe LG will license out the core tech - heck, they may even OEM the entire rollable assembly. Instead of purchasing 'panels', Sony and Panasonic purchase 'rolls' . It's a huuuuge differentiator. Even my brother who knows nothing about TVs called me last night to ask whether I'd seen LGs rollable TV.

LG wants to get the manufacturing cost of rollable OLED down as far as they can get is as fast as they can get it and they want as many premium brands selling rollable WOLED TVs as they can get. This takes them into territory where LCD cannot follow (as opposed to the curved TVs of several years ago).

The final quote referring to 88" and 'rollerblade' is interesting. Perhaps LG is planning to scale the current solution to 88" or perhaps there are mechanical constraints that make the 65" rolling solution non-viable for 88" screens. 'Rollerblade' could mean almost anything - a pull-down screen?
Pretty sure "rollerblad" is just a poor translation from the Korean to describe the R.
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post #48 of 84 Old 01-09-2019, 01:06 PM
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I guess the rollable format makes most sense for the biggest screens. Transporting an 88" into an apartment can be problematic, I think.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by gorman42 View Post
I guess the rollable format makes most sense for the biggest screens. Transporting an 88" into an apartment can be problematic, I think.
It will be fantastic if LG can extend the current rollable solution to 75/77" and 88" panels...
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Making it hard to decide to jump in for our first 4k TV now or wait for top emission hopefully in 2020

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post #51 of 84 Old 01-11-2019, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaine Doss View Post
Making it hard to decide to jump in for our first 4k TV now or wait for top emission hopefully in 2020

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Based on some of the things fafrd has mentioned as benefits to top emission, I'd be concerned I would quickly regret purchasing bottom emission OLED at this point (unless I upgraded TVs every year, which I don't).
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post #52 of 84 Old 01-11-2019, 09:56 AM
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Based on some of the things fafrd has mentioned as benefits to top emission, I'd be concerned I would quickly regret purchasing bottom emission OLED at this point (unless I upgraded TVs every year, which I don't).
Ya I will probably wait until this time next year to decide.. As long as our old 2010 samsung makes it..

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post #53 of 84 Old 01-11-2019, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaine Doss View Post
Ya I will probably wait until this time next year to decide.. As long as our old 2010 samsung makes it..

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The waiting is no fun, but I'm also glad my current television is working perfectly.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaine Doss View Post
Ya I will probably wait until this time next year to decide.. As long as our old 2010 samsung makes it..
I'm pretty sure there will be something exciting coming in 2022 as well!

The idea of buying a TV you'll be happy with for life doesn't work. If you want perfect, you'll regret your purchase in a year. And practically speaking, coming from a 2010 Sammy, you'd probably be very happy with a BI-free 2016 or 2017 OLED. There will be much less PQ difference between first-gen TE OLED (likely conservatively driven) and 2016 OLED than between the latter and even a good LCD.
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post #55 of 84 Old 01-11-2019, 11:09 AM
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Only a year?! Pshaw, try a few days.
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post #56 of 84 Old 01-11-2019, 01:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Some details on the 65" 8K Top Emission (probably) panel in this video:

Apparently peak brightness for the 65" 8K will be identical to the 88" 8K:

Full Field Peak Brightness of 150cd/m2
25% Field Peak Brightness of 500cd/m2
10% Field Peak Brightness of 800cd/m2

So we may not be getting the peak brightnes increases Top Emission could deliver as quickly as next year. On the other hand, it's possible that LG wants to slign specs in 2019 so the 88Z9 does not appear deficient in any way.

Philips (and possibly also Sony) may late-launch 65" 8K WOLEDs based on this panel before the end of this year...
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post #57 of 84 Old 02-02-2019, 03:15 PM
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What benefits will Top Emission OLEDs bring?

So the prediction is that LG's 2020 lineup will feature Top Emission OLED panels

Click image for larger version

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Picture is courtesy of Sony

Does anyone know if any LG rep confirmed this tech for 2020 or did LG say something to someone at CES?

Is an increase in peak brightness all we can expect? (Will OLEDs finally hit 1000 peak brightness)

Is this technology valuable enough for us to hold off 2019 models?

Any rumors on 12-bit panels for 2020 OLEDs?

I'd appreciate if anyone can answer any of these questions.
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post #58 of 84 Old 02-02-2019, 07:10 PM
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post #59 of 84 Old 02-02-2019, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd
At this point, I'd say it's a near-certainty that in 2020 we'll see 65", 75/77", and 88" 8K WOLEDs based on too-emission technology (and a new IGZO bsckplane)
New info changed his mind. That thread has been updated in posts in other threads...If he reads this i suggest he updates the thread.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...n-specs-4.html
post #119
it's looking increasingly likely that top emission may be delayed beyond 2020
post #124
LGD has apparently confirmed to Vincent Toh of HDTVTEST that that 65" 8K WOLED was based on top-emission like the 88" 8K WOLED and strongly suggested all WOLED panels including 8K would remain bottom-emission through 2020...
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post #60 of 84 Old 02-05-2019, 09:07 AM
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Well, I was basing my decision on waiting another year for a 65" OLED on this. What other benefits are we losing if they don't move to top-emission yet?
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