2019 LG Z9 Signature 8K OLED Anticipation Thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 165 Old 03-07-2019, 03:03 AM
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Even at $6999 it's tough to decide. Get the 75” Q-LED or the 77” OLED?
For 95% of the people here, it would be a no-brainer. OLED displays are in a class of their own, and LCD need something very compelling like larger size to compete.

There's still a few people who prefer LCD, or a few use cases that favor them, just like there are customers and niches for phones with physical keys. But if you offered to trade a lightly-used 77" OLED for a new high-end LCD here, it would be gone in a day.

The market consistently supports higher pricing for OLED vs LCD of similar size or slightly larger. $20k-ish would be fairly expected pricing for a possible 88C?, but as a signature W or Z line, even $25k would be light.
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post #62 of 165 Old 03-07-2019, 05:00 AM
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Source is somebody with good contacts to Panasonic dealers in Germany. He was always right.



http://www.hifi-forum.de/index.php?a...postID=286#286



http://www.hifi-forum.de/index.php?a...postID=295#295


He said, later in the year there will be bigger OLEDs by Panasonic and more than only one and the 77EZW1004 gets a successor.


Traditionally the flagship models by many manufactures were officially released around IFA in late August/September and not at the CES. The CES is only a appetizer because it´s too early in the year for a full lineup release.
Even for TPV/Philips there will be two more series at IFA. New 9er Series and 7er Series following the spring/early summer lineup around the just announced 8 Series. TPV/Philips in Europe is not the same in USA (stands under the Funai brand).
Cool, thanks

Will the 2000 series see a 77" or will it only be offered in one of the lower series (1500,1000,950)?

Since the 77" model is being kept a secret, sort of are they also potentially keeping secret plans to bring HDMI 2.1 with those sets? I'm very disappointed that not even the 2000 series 55" and 65" models will have HDMI 2.1 nor will they be implementing VRR and ALM via their 2.0 implementation. I can't remember where they stand with respect to eARC. This was discussed in either the HDTVTest video interview or via a video interview from AVSForums.

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post #63 of 165 Old 03-07-2019, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Tanquen View Post
Even at $6999 it's tough to decide. Get the 75” Q-LED or the 77” OLED?
For 95% of the people here, it would be a no-brainer. OLED displays are in a class of their own, and LCD need something very compelling like larger size to compete.

There's still a few people who prefer LCD, or a few use cases that favor them, just like there are customers and niches for phones with physical keys. But if you offered to trade a lightly-used 77" OLED for a new high-end LCD here, it would be gone in a day.

The market consistently supports higher pricing for OLED vs LCD of similar size or slightly larger. $20k-ish would be fairly expected pricing for a possible 88C?, but as a signature W or Z line, even $25k would be light.
I'm not sure if this year's improvements are enough but everything you just said sounds like you're ignoring all the improvements they made this year. I really want to see a detailed review between this year's qled and OLED. Maybe OLED still has better viewing angles and blacks but how much better and is it worth the dimmer picture, motion blur, Black crush and the burn in or has that got any better with 9-series?
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post #64 of 165 Old 03-07-2019, 07:38 AM
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There will be no high-end LCDs anymore in a near future. It´s only Samsung and only until their own QD OLED production. Samsung QLED sets for 2019 are picture wise the same like last year. No better black level, no better brightness. It´s only a better viewing angle and then you have to pay more for this compared to an even better viewing angle on a cheaper OLED set? Flagship sets by LG, Sony, Panasonic, Philips, Loewe, Skyworth, etc. are all OLED. For them LCD is done in the premium market. Now and not in the future. ZG9 only at 85" and 98" and not payable. Why? Because they have OLED and there will be soon (end of this year!) 8K OLEDs in 65", 77" and 88" size. Also 48" 4K OLEDs coming soon. Size disadvantage will be gone, also prices for 77" coming rapidly down. The Q90R is more expensive than the C9 in 55" and 65". Samsung as only fifth! ranged panel maker can´t compete in panel prices with LGD´s OLED offense on capacity expansion. Only BOE has bigger capacity, but only because LGD delayed 10.5G production. They will surely be back to number one, when the 10.5G plant starting production, and also in the last capacity numbers the new plant in Guangzhou (starting production in June) wasn´t included.

This year there will be 40% more production capacity for OLED. 2020/21 starting also the 10.5G line. OLED will be cheaper than high-end LCD.

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post #65 of 165 Old 03-07-2019, 07:50 AM
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Cool, thanks

Will the 2000 series see a 77" or will it only be offered in one of the lower series (1500,1000,950)?

He has not given any details.
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post #66 of 165 Old 03-07-2019, 08:15 AM
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There will be no high-end LCDs anymore in a near future. It´s only Samsung and only until their own QD OLED production. Samsung QLED sets for 2019 are picture wise the same like last year. No better black level, no better brightness. It´s only a better viewing angle and the you have pay more for this compared to an even better viewing angle on a cheaper OLED set? Flagship sets by LG, Sony, Panasonic, Philips, Loewe, Skyworth, etc. are all OLED. For them LCD is done in the premium market. Now and not in the future. ZG9 only at 85" and 98" and not payable. Why? Because they have OLED and there will be soon (end of this year!) 8K OLEDs in 65", 77" and 88" size. Also 48" 4K OLEDs coming soon. Size disadvantage will be gone, also prices for 77" coming rapidly down. The Q90R is more expensive than the C9 in 55" and 65". Samsung as only fifth! ranged panel maker can´t compete in panel prices with LGD´s OLED offense on capacity expansion. Only TCL has bigger capacity, but only because LGD delayed 10.5G production. They will surely be back to number one, when the 10.5G plant starting production, and also in the last capacity numbers the new plant in Guangzhou (starting production in June) wasn´t included.

This year there will be 40% more production capacity for OLED. 2020/21 starting also the 10.5G line. OLED will be cheaper than high-end LCD.
Just trying to make an informed decision. Most of what you said is good known info but I was not saying better brightness than last year’s LCDs and if you are talking about OLED then you are talking about the high end. I know the better viewing angles cost brightness on the Sony(?) that had it but Samsung’s says theirs won’t. So the colors and viewing angles have gotten better at full brightness and that brightness is a bit more than OLED. Like I said “Maybe OLED still has better viewing angles and blacks but how much better and is it worth the dimmer picture, motion blur, Black crush and the burn in or has that got any better with 9-series?”

“There will be no high-end LCDs anymore in a near future.” Sounds dubious. Micro LED is a ways out but the brightness is better and the viewing angles are improved and no (comparable) burn in, right now. There are also some improvements in blacks. One set was shown using an extra LCD layer just to filter the back light on an almost per pixel level and that sounds promising.

Just trying to figure out the best price and performance of this year’s QLED/OLD 70”+. I think the choice is getting tougher. Like I want HDMI 2.1 and it looks like the QLEDs still don’t have it this year and I don’t want to deal with the external box.

"OLED will be cheaper than high-end LCD" It may have to be and if the 77" is really $7k that not quite cheaper. Much better than last year but they only(?) added HDMI 2.1.

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post #67 of 165 Old 03-07-2019, 08:50 AM
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“There will be no high-end LCDs anymore in a near future.” Sounds dubious. Micro LCD is a ways out but the brightness is better and the viewing angles are improved and no (comparable) burn in, right now. There are also some improvements in blacks. One set was shown using an extra LCD layer just to filter the back light on an almost per pixel level and that sounds promising.
Dual LCD was first shown on trade shows in 2008. Nothing special about it. Too expensive. You have to pay for two panels and two drivers and still have liquid crystals with inferior pixel latency and even ordinary LCD loosing 90% light of the backlight with polarizer, filters etc. What you guess such a dual LCD will you cost and how high the energy consumption will be? OLED is cheaper, has still better blacks and contrast, is more efficient, better viewing angle, pixel latency etc. You completely ignore pixel latency (HFR, rolling scan, 1000Hz panels with interlaced mode possible with OLED) the new possible form factors (rollable, transparent) on OLED with much bigger impact in the market than brightness. In HDR movies only a 10% area of a scene is allowed to be brighter than 235nits. The nitrace is over. Even an OLED with 4000nits will be not much brighter in HDR movies. This 10% only represents small details. Pixel dimming is more important than high volume brightness. The HDR shootout results clearly showed it, that higher nits on paper didn´t results in better HDR performance.

The lowest street price (incl. tax) in Germany of the 77C8 was 3999€ (UVP was 9999€) at black friday, currently sold online under 4450€. Now we get a 77C9 around 2000€ cheaper in UVP than it´s predecessor and also an even cheaper 77" B9. I guess for the US you will see 77" OLEDs with street prices under $4000 this year. Even $3500 will be not far away.

At the moment LGD is in a phase of building capacity. The bigger steps in picture quality (brightness, color volume, HFR) will be coming when they finalized their 10.5 plant. At this time, the previous investment costs of capacity buildings can be transformed to investments in panel developments. OLED is not at the end, it´s only the beginning.


The 2019 sets have different panels than 2018 with better fill rate (could be resulting in a more relaxed ABL, more resistant against burn in), new BFI mode and HDMI 2.1. With 120Hz BFI OLED will be superior in motion compared to LCD. Every year there was a progress in picture quality, so we have to wait for the serious reviews from HDTVtest, rtings, flatpanelsHD etc.
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post #68 of 165 Old 03-07-2019, 09:09 AM
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Micro LCD
Micro LED. Completely different technology than LCD.
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post #69 of 165 Old 03-07-2019, 09:25 AM
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Micro LED. Completely different technology than LCD.
Fixed. "Completely different" ?
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post #70 of 165 Old 03-07-2019, 09:32 AM
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...The 2019 sets have different panels than 2018 with better fill rate (could be resulting in a more relaxed ABL, more resistant against burn in), new BFI mode and HDMI 2.1. With 120Hz BFI OLED will be superior in motion compared to LCD. Every year there was a progress in picture quality, so we have to wait for the serious reviews from HDTVtest, rtings, flatpanelsHD etc.
I do hope they both keep improving. Just looking at the next few months as I'm wanting to retire the 10-ish year old Kuro.

Didn't the 2018 sets have BFI?

"With 120Hz BFI OLED will be superior in motion compared to LCD." But it seems some issues were there with the 2018 LG?

I'm looking forward to the real reviews as I'm done waiting and with the 9s having HDMI 2.1 I'm just about there. Just worried I'll not like the black crush or motion and maybe burn in. I don't play lots of games but I did want to pay some with HDMI 2.1 and freesync.
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post #71 of 165 Old 03-07-2019, 09:54 AM
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I do hope they both keep improving. Just looking at the next few months as I'm wanting to retire the 10-ish year old Kuro.

Didn't the 2018 sets have BFI?
Yes, 50% BFI @ 60Hz sacrificing 50% of brightness.

2019 support 25%, 50% or 75% BFI @ 60Hz and 50% BFI @ 120Hz, all with an automatic 25% brightness boost (so no sacrifice in brightness @ 25% BFI, 50% sacrifice in brightness @ 75% BFI). 2018 WOLEDs deliver MPRT of 3.5ms, which is the lowest persistance ever achieved on a mainstream TV.

Quote:
"With 120Hz BFI OLED will be superior in motion compared to LCD." But it seems some issues were there with the 2018 LG?
2018s were a deficient first-generation implementation of BFI (not quite catching up to leading LED/LCD). The 2nd-generation 2019 implementation takes BFI to an entirely different level beyond what LED/LCD can (economically) achieve...
Quote:
I'm looking forward to the real reviews as I'm done waiting and with the 9s having HDMI 2.1 I'm just about there.
The 9S will get a FW upgrade to support some HDMI 2.1 features through an HDMI2.0 chipset, but it will almost certainly not be full 48Gbps HDMI2.1 supporting 4K4:2:[email protected]

Quote:
Just worried I'll not like the black crush or motion and maybe burn in. I don't play lots of games but I did want to pay some with HDMI 2.1 and freesync.
I'm not sure where you get the idea that 2018/19 WOLEDs suffer from black crush. It's the Q9FN that won the black crush crown last year. The Q9 is supposed to be better, but we need to await first owner reports.

Samsung made no improvements in motion performance this year, while LG 2nd-genration BFI is a big leap forward, so w'll need to see how those two compare in the motion department.

With a 2019 WOLED, you'll get full 48Gbps HDMI 2,1. With a 2019 QLED/LCD, you'll probably some hacked HDMI 2.0 pseudo-HDMI2.1 upgrade at best that almost certainly won't support full 48Gbps.

If you are deathly afraid of burn-in, stick to LCD. No argument there.

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post #72 of 165 Old 03-07-2019, 09:55 AM
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Fixed. "Completely different" ?
LCDs block the light from a backlight using liquid crystals. The crystals have to physically change shape. It's a transmissive technology.

LEDs emit light directly. Nothing has to move, it's purely electrical. It's an emissive technology.

The fact that current LCD TVs are using LEDs for a backlight is irrelevant. You can swap out the LED backlight for something else and the technology for generating the image stays the same. Swapping the LED backlight for an OLED backlight doesn't magically switch the TV from being the same as a microLED TV to being the same as an OLED TV.
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post #73 of 165 Old 03-07-2019, 10:04 AM
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LCDs block the light from a backlight using liquid crystals. The crystals have to physically change shape. It's a transmissive technology.

LEDs emit light directly. Nothing has to move, it's purely electrical. It's an emissive technology.

The fact that current LCD TVs are using LEDs for a backlight is irrelevant. You can swap out the LED backlight for something else and the technology for generating the image stays the same. Swapping the LED backlight for an OLED backlight doesn't magically switch the TV from being the same as a microLED TV to being the same as an OLED TV.
"Completely"? :P
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post #74 of 165 Old 03-07-2019, 10:11 AM
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"The 9S will get a FW upgrade to support some HDMI 2.1 features through an HDMI2.0 chipset"

Yes, sorry. I'm talking about the LG OLED 9 series.

"I'm not sure where you get the idea that 2018/19 WOLEDs suffer from black crush.”

The LGs had an issue with it. ??? I think the others are just hiding it better and losing some dark detail.
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post #75 of 165 Old 03-07-2019, 10:45 AM
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Do we happen to know the dimensions of the panel without the stand? I am having cabinets built as I type and if this could fit in a year or so down the line that would be great.
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post #76 of 165 Old 03-07-2019, 10:58 AM
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"Completely"? :P
You're being pedantic. Yes, they both use electroluminescence to generate light. They're also both made of glass, plastic and semiconductors and take an HDMI input. You have to draw the line somewhere. When it comes to how the image is generated, the source of the backlight is irrelevant. Putting sunlight through an LCD display doesn't somehow make LCDs and fusion reactors the same technology.

Which brings us back to one of your original counter arguments against “There will be no high-end LCDs anymore in a near future.”. The fact that MicroLED will be the next best tech does not invalidate that statement.
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post #77 of 165 Old 03-07-2019, 11:09 AM
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Yes, 50% BFI @ 60Hz sacrificing 50% of brightness.

2019 support 25%, 50% or 75% BFI @ 60Hz and 50% BFI @ 120Hz, all with an automatic 25% brightness boost (so no sacrifice in brightness @ 25% BFI, 50% sacrifice in brightness @ 75% BFI). 2018 WOLEDs deliver MPRT of 3.5ms, which is the lowest persistance ever achieved on a mainstream TV.

[quote{
"With 120Hz BFI OLED will be superior in motion compared to LCD." But it seems some issues were there with the 2018 LG?
2018s were a deficient first-generation implementation of BFI (not quite catching up to leading LED/LCD). The 2nd-generation 2019 implementation takes BFI to an entirely different level beyond what LED/LCD can (economically) achieve...


The 9S will get a FW upgrade to support some HDMI 2.1 features through an HDMI2.0 chipset, but it will almost certainly not be full 48Gbps HDMI2.1 supporting 4K4:2:[email protected]



I'm not sure where you get the idea that 2018/19 WOLEDs suffer from black crush. It's the Q9FN that won the black crush crown last year. The Q9 is supposed to be better, but we need to await first owner reports.

Samsung made no improvements in motion performance this year, while LG 2nd-genration BFI is a big leap forward, so w'll need to see how those two compare in the motion department.

With a 2019 WOLED, you'll get full 48Gbps HDMI 2,1. With a 2019 QLED/LCD, you'll probably some hacked HDMI 2.0 pseudo-HDMI2.1 upgrade at best that almost certainly won't support full 48Gbps.

If you are deathly afraid of burn-in, stick to LCD. No argument there.[/QUOTE]

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You're being pedantic. Yes, they both use electroluminescence to generate light. They're also both made of glass, plastic and semiconductors and take an HDMI input. You have to draw the line somewhere. When it comes to how the image is generated, the source of the backlight is irrelevant. Putting sunlight through an LCD display doesn't somehow make LCDs and fusion reactors the same technology.

Which brings us back to one of your original counter arguments against “There will be no high-end LCDs anymore in a near future.”. The fact that MicroLED will be the next best tech does not invalidate that statement.
No you are. :P How near is near and that too expensive 2008 LCD backlight filter was also demoed again this year. There are all kinds of LCD layer stuff coming soon-ish. Nothing really maters until I’m looking at it in stock with the money to buy.

“There will be no high-end LCDs anymore in a near future.” There totally are it's just up to each buyer and what they can and can't live with.
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post #78 of 165 Old 03-07-2019, 11:11 AM
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"The 9S will get a FW upgrade to support some HDMI 2.1 features through an HDMI2.0 chipset"

Yes, sorry. I'm talking about the LG OLED 9 series.
The 9-Series OLEDs will come pre-packaged with HDMI2.1 hardware - no upgrade needed (but some features may not be activated before a FW upgrade).

Quote:
"I'm not sure where you get the idea that 2018/19 WOLEDs suffer from black crush.”

The LGs had an issue with it. ??? I think the others are just hiding it better and losing some dark detail.
Older-generation LG WOLEDs suffered from poor near-black linearity (as well as poor near-black non-uniformity) which ham-handed calibrations (or owners just screwing around with settings) dealt with by decreasing brightness to the point that those imperfections got crushed into black along with some shadow detail.

But those days are long gone and the 2019 WOLEDs have added addtional greyscale/gamma calibration points under 5% (at 1% and 2%?) to further improve calibration of near-black linearity and gamma.

The Samsung Q9FN suffered from much worse black-crush from a misguided effort to deliver OLED-like black levels. Below a certain intensity, dimming zones would just 'turn-off' completely to deliver perfect black (despite the fact that this meant sacrificing whatever shadow detail was left within those zones). This was one of the major dings against the Q9FN (the other being a rogue and innacurate EOTF curve that increased the apparent contrast of content).
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post #79 of 165 Old 03-07-2019, 11:50 AM
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I'm not sure if this year's improvements are enough but everything you just said sounds like you're ignoring all the improvements they made this year.
They made a lot of improvements, but it's still different leagues.

If you're watching in bright daylight, LCD is a contender. For controlled lighting conditions, which is what most of this forum is focused on... it's like comparing two cars, one of which has much better interior and the other runs.

If you want to go point by point:
  • Dark room picture has equal overall brightness, by the very design of HDR. LCD theoretically offer tighter highlights, but they're still spoiled by backlight leakage to a much greater extent than that to which OLED highlights are spoiled by tone mapping.
  • Motion blur is a fair concern for fast content. The jury's still out on whether the 9 series matches LCD, but it improves on that greatly over its predecessors.
  • Black crush is a forum myth. Even the absolute darkest tones are well visible on OLED. What people call black crush is an effect of using a TV with zero black levels in bright ambient lighting. Black and dark tone levels on OLED are infinitely adjustable.
  • With 7 series and above, burn-in doesn't occur on the kind of content that's worth buying an OLED for. 6 and older were susceptible.
It comes down to probably a bit better BFI vs perfect black levels, and that's not a fair fight at all.
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post #80 of 165 Old 03-07-2019, 12:01 PM
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No you are. :P
Last time I heard that counter argument I was talking to a 6 year old.

Pedantic: giving too much attention to formal rules or small details.

Sorry but that's definitely you. Me pointing out that MicroLED is not the same as LCD is not being pedantic. You harping about my word choice is.


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How near is near and that too expensive 2008 LCD backlight filter was also demoed again this year. There are all kinds of LCD layer stuff coming soon-ish. Nothing really maters until I’m looking at it in stock with the money to buy.

“There will be no high-end LCDs anymore in a near future.” There totally are it's just up to each buyer and what they can and can't live with.
None of this has anything to do with what I wrote. All I'm saying is that MicroLED is not the same tech as LCD and therefore does not invalidate the other person's statement. Your other arguments might but that's none of my concern.
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post #81 of 165 Old 03-07-2019, 12:02 PM
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They made a lot of improvements, but it's still different leagues.

If you're watching in bright daylight, LCD is a contender. For controlled lighting conditions, which is what most of this forum is focused on... it's like comparing two cars, one of which has much better interior and the other runs.

If you want to go point by point:
  • Dark room picture has equal overall brightness, by the very design of HDR. LCD theoretically offer tighter highlights, but they're still spoiled by backlight leakage to a much greater extent than that to which OLED highlights are spoiled by tone mapping.
  • Motion blur is a fair concern for fast content. The jury's still out on whether the 9 series matches LCD, but it improves on that greatly over its predecessors.
  • Black crush is a forum myth. Even the absolute darkest tones are well visible on OLED. What people call black crush is an effect of using a TV with zero black levels in bright ambient lighting. Black and dark tone levels on OLED are infinitely adjustable.
  • With 7 series and above, burn-in doesn't occur on the kind of content that's worth buying an OLED for. 6 and older were susceptible.
It comes down to probably a bit better BFI vs perfect black levels, and that's not a fair fight at all.
Of course we need to await objective/quantitative reviews and 3rd party testing/confirmation, but if the 9-Series WOLEDs delivered MPRT of 3.5ms as claimed, that should easily surpass what even the best Premium LED/LCD TVs can deliver...

LG's first-generation BFI implementation in 2018 was an almost unusable joke, but it appears they have leapfrogged what's possible on (economical) LED/LCDs with their 2019 OLED Motion Pro...

I seriously doubt the BFI implementation on the Samsung Q90 surpasses LG's 9-Series BFI in any way (of course, overall motion processing including interpolation is a different question .

Samsung appears to have finally closed the gap on viewing angles while LG appears to have finally closed thr gap on BFI/MPRT - looks like 2019 was a year for 'defense' all around .
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post #82 of 165 Old 03-07-2019, 10:27 PM
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No you are. :P
Last time I heard that counter argument I was talking to a 6 year old.
Maybe you really can't see it but it is completely and totally 100% you. Completely.
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post #83 of 165 Old 03-08-2019, 04:08 PM
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Even an OLED with 4000nits will be not much brighter in HDR movies. This 10% only represents small details.
Just reminding you: highlights are small details.

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post #84 of 165 Old 03-22-2019, 10:40 AM
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I grabbed the LG rep at BB. I know it isn't a guarantee but he said he heard 14,999.
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post #85 of 165 Old 03-23-2019, 03:38 AM
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I grabbed the LG rep at BB. I know it isn't a guarantee but he said he heard 14,999.
If it does indeed have an msrp at that price point (and that’s a huge if), this TV is a no brainer for me. As good as the new Samsung 8K models are, this LG 88” is my dream TV. Here’s hoping it proves to be true.
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post #86 of 165 Old 03-23-2019, 05:58 AM
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I grabbed the LG rep at BB. I know it isn't a guarantee but he said he heard 14,999.
The $15K price for a first gen. 8k 88" OLED sounds too good too be true, when the 77" 4k wallpaper is priced at $13k....
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post #87 of 165 Old 03-23-2019, 09:43 AM
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I agree. It does sound low but then again the wallpaper TV is almost double the C9 price. Is the 88 a wallpaper version? I’m pretty sure it’s a big c9 with 8k. If that price is true I may have to buy one.
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post #88 of 165 Old 03-23-2019, 12:16 PM
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Do we know the rough dimensions of the screen? Also does the z9 upconvert 4k material to 8k?
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post #89 of 165 Old 03-25-2019, 12:35 PM
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Do we know the rough dimensions of the screen? Also does the z9 upconvert 4k material to 8k?
It certainly would upconvert.

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post #90 of 165 Old 03-25-2019, 04:12 PM
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It certainly would upconvert.
And with a great deal of Intelligence (at least according to LG ).
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