Audio Return Channel, OLED Brightness - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 30 Old 01-14-2019, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Audio Return Channel, OLED Brightness

I have a 10 year old Samsung LCD TV I want to replace. The Current install has 2 component video cable and one HDMI. The components are 25 feet or more away from the TV and I will have to replace the component Cables with HDMI. The current TV also outputs audio from an analog audio out (RCA connectors) to a whole house audio system.

I have a couple questions/problems

1.) My room can get pretty bright, should I stay away from OLED? I have a home theater so movie night tends to be in the theater.
2.) I have read HDMI is limited to 30 feet. Is that a hard rule? I can run CAT6 and video extender but I'd prefer not to.
3.) I need to get analog audio out somehow. Not all TV's have straight audio out but they do have Audio Return Channel. Can I convert that to analog? What is the best devise? Does that increase volume with the Volume of the TV?

I have not looked at any TV's but I can fit a 55" and I am looking at the better OLED offerings from LG and LCD from Samsung.

Thanks

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post #2 of 30 Old 01-14-2019, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by t6902wf View Post
I have a 10 year old Samsung LCD TV I want to replace. The Current install has 2 component video cable and one HDMI. The components are 25 feet or more away from the TV and I will have to replace the component Cables with HDMI. The current TV also outputs audio from an analog audio out (RCA connectors) to a whole house audio system.

I have a couple questions/problems

1.) My room can get pretty bright, should I stay away from OLED? I have a home theater so movie night tends to be in the theater.
2.) I have read HDMI is limited to 30 feet. Is that a hard rule? I can run CAT6 and video extender but I'd prefer not to.
3.) I need to get analog audio out somehow. Not all TV's have straight audio out but they do have Audio Return Channel. Can I convert that to analog? What is the best devise? Does that increase volume with the Volume of the TV?

I have not looked at any TV's but I can fit a 55" and I am looking at the better OLED offerings from LG and LCD from Samsung.

Thanks

HDMI is not limited to 30'. What is limited is the cable certification, which is 25' (some mfrs have been able to certify out to 30'). Premium High Speed HDMI cables, which come with a QR label for authenticity are the HDMI.org approved cables. However, even with a proper certification there are no 100% guarantees that the cable will work as expected because there are other factors involved besides the data pipe (cable). You can use an active cable, which is designed to extend that 25' length by incorporating chipsets in the sink end (tv side) for error correction, timing, etc. They work great for 1080p but 4k HDR can be more difficult.


You can run CAT-6 and terminate with HDBT (expensive) but you should be using solid core CAT-6 cabling (non-CCS and not CAT-6 ethernet patch cable).


If your cable run is over about 20', and you want to push 4k HDR, then you might want to look into a hybrid fiber cable instead of a copper-based cable. They are expensive but almost a necessity for long 4k HDR runs becauae 4k HDR can have distance issues.



ARC can be problematic over long distances. It works for some and for others it's a pain-in-the a$$. The reason being is that some systems (quite a few in fact) have ARC associated with CEC, and CEC is very problematic due to non-standardization of the protocols. I don't think you can use the ARC feature to analog the way you want to but maybe somebody else can give you a more definitive answer. ARC is dependent upon the HDMI chipsets in the source and sink device.



You can always use optical out from the tv to the receiver for discrete 5.1 audio from OTA television (antenna) or the SmartApps. ARC currently offers the same audio format as optical but some systems allow you to use ARC for lossless Atmos if that's what you want/need.


You mentioned you have a home theater so what kind of receiver do you have? If it is old, and you get a new new tv you may have to upgrade your receiver to take full advantage of what your tv can do. For a bright room, an LED may be a better choice than an OLED. I have an OLED but I can control the lighting in the room so it's not an issue, day or night.

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post #3 of 30 Old 01-14-2019, 09:36 AM
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I can really only speak to #1 and, while my OLED gets plenty bright enough for daytime viewing, I'm going to recommend LED LCD in this scenario. Also, don't limit yourself to Samsung. I've been doing a lot of shopping for LED displays recently, and have found those from Sony to outclass Samsung in pure picture quality.
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post #4 of 30 Old 01-14-2019, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by t6902wf View Post
1.) My room can get pretty bright, should I stay away from OLED? I have a home theater so movie night tends to be in the theater.


OLED is the undisputed champion of dark room viewing (it's the only way I watch) but for bright room I'd look elsewhere as others have said.

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Nobody in their right mind would recommend an LCD over an OLED.
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post #6 of 30 Old 01-14-2019, 12:09 PM
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Nobody in their right mind would recommend an LCD over an OLED.
Well I never claimed I was in my right mind.

I'm also not going to recommend a LaFerrari Aperta to someone inquiring about good daily driver commuter car options. LCDs still have a place in homes. That place is often a brightly lit room.
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post #7 of 30 Old 01-14-2019, 12:47 PM
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Nobody in their right mind would recommend an LCD over an OLED.
Owner of an OLED with right mind here. Will gladly replace OLED with LCD if LCD offers what I want down the road.
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post #8 of 30 Old 01-14-2019, 12:55 PM
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Owner of an OLED with right mind here. Will gladly replace OLED with LCD if LCD offers what I want down the road.

Same here... if I'm ever in the market for light bleed I'm going out to buy a TCL LCD. The absolutely best light bleeding LCD you can get for $399!

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post #9 of 30 Old 01-14-2019, 08:39 PM
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I have not looked at any TV's but I can fit a 55" and I am looking at the better OLED offerings from LG and LCD from Samsung.
Double check and triple check the physical dimensions of your cabinet/enclosure/wall space against the planned TV to make sure that it will fit in the target location. There should be space for air flow if it is a cabinet.
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post #10 of 30 Old 01-14-2019, 09:13 PM
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On the issue of an OLED in a bright room, I guess it depends on how bright is bright. Our room in the daytime is of average brightness, and I have OLED light set to 25, and I don't have any issues with the brightness of the picture. And if the room was brighter, I could just turn up the OLED light. It seems to me that OLED's have plenty of brightness and that this feature of LCD's is overrated. But I suppose, as usual, the adage YMMV applies.
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post #11 of 30 Old 01-14-2019, 09:27 PM
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Interrupting just on the grounds of question #1 . I have floor to ceiling windows in my living room. The entire far wall is glass. I've been using LED, i had the Vizio P Quantum for instance. But with LG offering uncompromised HDMI 2.1, I was going to go OLED for the first time. I take it based on the previous replies that the C9 won't suit? Yes, I have blinds but I do love natural sunlight and the view. Oh, and LG's lcds are trash so that isn't an option.

I really thought given the PQ and features, an OLED panel would be perfect. Didn't realize that pure nits were a possible obstacle until now.
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post #12 of 30 Old 01-15-2019, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t6902wf View Post
I have a 10 year old Samsung LCD TV I want to replace. The Current install has 2 component video cable and one HDMI. The components are 25 feet or more away from the TV and I will have to replace the component Cables with HDMI. The current TV also outputs audio from an analog audio out (RCA connectors) to a whole house audio system.

I have a couple questions/problems

1.) My room can get pretty bright, should I stay away from OLED? I have a home theater so movie night tends to be in the theater.
2.) I have read HDMI is limited to 30 feet. Is that a hard rule? I can run CAT6 and video extender but I'd prefer not to.
3.) I need to get analog audio out somehow. Not all TV's have straight audio out but they do have Audio Return Channel. Can I convert that to analog? What is the best devise? Does that increase volume with the Volume of the TV?

I have not looked at any TV's but I can fit a 55" and I am looking at the better OLED offerings from LG and LCD from Samsung.

Thanks
Well HDMI with active cables (usually fiber) can do much longer.

The HDMI over CAT6 is not an option I would use. They don't support 18Gbps, but to do 4K they do some extra compression, and pretty sure they kill DV and a number of other features to fit things in 10Gbps. It was pretty good for HDMI 1.4 but not 2.0 or higher.

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Originally Posted by Bangerbox View Post
Interrupting just on the grounds of question #1 . I have floor to ceiling windows in my living room. The entire far wall is glass. I've been using LED, i had the Vizio P Quantum for instance. But with LG offering uncompromised HDMI 2.1, I was going to go OLED for the first time. I take it based on the previous replies that the C9 won't suit? Yes, I have blinds but I do love natural sunlight and the view. Oh, and LG's lcds are trash so that isn't an option.

I really thought given the PQ and features, an OLED panel would be perfect. Didn't realize that pure nits were a possible obstacle until now.
Rooms with such impressive chlorophyll treatments are better suited to lcd's, stick to a p quantum or a sony zf9. At night time oled will be fine but if a lot of your viewing is done daytime, lcd then.

I don't think oleds are marketed for bright living rooms, they are more suited for dark room movie watching as an alternative to projector (minus the screen size). And although oled's 800 nits would do fine in a moderately lit living room at daytime, a bright lcd would give a more comfortable image.
-------------------------------------------------------
On a general note, oled's 800 nits also have a disadvantage in dark rooms, it's not the brightness intensity, it's with hdr in that 800 nits does too much compression on the dynamic range, especially games (~4000 nits).

While we wait for top emission oled, it is no certainty that the first generation top emission oleds will significantly enhance the peak luminance level for hdr, the increase in aperture ratio can be used for better burn in mitigation and aging of the subpixels, so there well might be the case that with top emission oleds are still only hitting around 900-1000 nits peak (hdr 10% section).
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post #14 of 30 Old 01-15-2019, 11:36 AM
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Rooms with such impressive chlorophyll treatments are better suited to lcd's, stick to a p quantum or a sony zf9. At night time oled will be fine but if a lot of your viewing is done daytime, lcd then.

I don't think oleds are marketed for bright living rooms, they are more suited for dark room movie watching as an alternative to projector (minus the screen size). And although oled's 800 nits would do fine in a moderately lit living room at daytime, a bright lcd would give a more comfortable image.
-------------------------------------------------------
On a general note, oled's 800 nits also have a disadvantage in dark rooms, it's not the brightness intensity, it's with hdr in that 800 nits does too much compression on the dynamic range, especially games (~4000 nits).

While we wait for top emission oled, it is no certainty that the first generation top emission oleds will significantly enhance the peak luminance level for hdr, the increase in aperture ratio can be used for better burn in mitigation and aging of the subpixels, so there well might be the case that with top emission oleds are still only hitting around 900-1000 nits peak (hdr 10% section).

There couldn't be a more false on AVS right now outside of your comment that a LCD "might" work better in a bright room. There is a reason why OLED has won every Shootout and the HDR category - contrast, limitations of FALD (blooming) and absolute blacks

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There couldn't be a more false on AVS right now outside of your comment that a LCD "might" work better in a bright room. There is a reason why OLED has won every Shootout and the HDR category - contrast, limitations of FALD (blooming) and absolute blacks
I was right in stating in what I did. And calling it false with a redundant smiley doesn't make it any wrong.
I'm an oled owner but in a bright living room, a bright lcd might work to give a more comfortable viewing experience to the eye depending on the ambient light intensity. The guy i was replying to said he has floor to ceiling windows in the living room, and I'm sure that's not the type of environment they run those shootouts at where oled wins. It's not all about contrast and absolute blacks, there are other considerations to take into account also.
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post #16 of 30 Old 01-15-2019, 12:14 PM
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I have floor to ceiling windows in my living room. The entire far wall is glass.

* * *

Yes, I have blinds but I do love natural sunlight and the view.
I have big windows in my house also, and they are opposite the TV. If I had to keep the blinds open while watching TV, I would probably have gone with an LCD. But when I want to watch TV, I am interested in watching TV and seeing a good picture -- and I don't care what is going on outside or what the view looks like. I'll close the blinds and look at the view another time.

If you are really going to keep the blinds open on floor to ceiling windows when you are watching TV in the daytime, I would try to find a TV that is as bright as possible and one that doesn't have a screen or panel that reflects too much light.

It's basically a matter of what you want in terms of your viewing experience. I mean, some people want to have a projector that works in bright rooms, even though that seems to me to be not a good use of a projector.

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post #17 of 30 Old 01-15-2019, 12:19 PM
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My Plasma's picture will wash out in a sunny room, my OLED does not. I know the brightness thing was a real concern in the LCD vs plasma debate, I dont understand why it continues on in the LCD vs OLED debate. My opinion, the only places where the LCD brightness advantage might be real is if the priority was HDR highlights at the cost of contrast (whats the point ) or if the TV is located in DIRECT sunlight for significant portions of the day.
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in a bright sunny room, perceptually you aren't getting the full benefit of absolute black on oled. if your eyes spot sunlight to the sides of the tv or directly behind the tv, then the effect of the perfect black on the screen is lost.
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post #19 of 30 Old 01-15-2019, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Well HDMI with active cables (usually fiber) can do much longer.

The HDMI over CAT6 is not an option I would use. They don't support 18Gbps, but to do 4K they do some extra compression, and pretty sure they kill DV and a number of other features to fit things in 10Gbps. It was pretty good for HDMI 1.4 but not 2.0 or higher.
Thanks for your reply. If forced me to look into some things.

I did some reading on HDMI 1.4 vs 2.0 and I am not sure the juice is worth the squeeze for me. I am not going to be playing video games and 60 fps is not important or widely available.
Any streamed source is going to be compressed making the incoming signal more of a problem than the cable attaching it to the TV. The best source I have available is Blue ray. Even HDMI 1.4 will transmit Blue ray just fine.

Is it possible to get 10 or 12 bit video over cable, satellite or streamed? I seriously doubt it? I am also only trying to transmit two channel audio.

Active fiber cables are very expensive. Over $150 a cable and I need 2.

I see other active cables that are advertised to do 18 Gbps at longer lengths for much less money. For 35-40 feet do I need Fiber or just an active cable?

Thanks again for alerting me to what I should consider. I built my theater 8 years ago and non of this was an issue then.

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I have large, sun-facing windows directly opposite the TV. OLED is bright enough in these circumstances--I don't bother to close the blinds.

And then when the sun goes away the OLED is phenomenal.

I've actually had one person complain my OLED was too bright, while watching Hunstman Winter War.
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I have large, sun-facing windows directly opposite the TV. OLED is bright enough in these circumstances--I don't bother to close the blinds.

And then when the sun goes away the OLED is phenomenal.

I've actually had one person complain my OLED was too bright, while watching Hunstman Winter War.

There has been some discussions on direct sunlight adversely affecting OLED panels over time so you might want to keep that in mind. I have a West facing window that sits at a right angle to our OLED and I keep the blinds closed during the time of the year when the sun shines directly thru the window.

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post #22 of 30 Old 01-15-2019, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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OP's windows

I have two story windows and no blinds in the room in question. That side of the house faces east.

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post #23 of 30 Old 01-15-2019, 01:42 PM
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Thanks for your reply. If forced me to look into some things.

I did some reading on HDMI 1.4 vs 2.0 and I am not sure the juice is worth the squeeze for me. I am not going to be playing video games and 60 fps is not important or widely available.
Any streamed source is going to be compressed making the incoming signal more of a problem than the cable attaching it to the TV. The best source I have available is Blue ray. Even HDMI 1.4 will transmit Blue ray just fine.

Is it possible to get 10 or 12 bit video over cable, satellite or streamed? I seriously doubt it? I am also only trying to transmit two channel audio.

Active fiber cables are very expensive. Over $150 a cable and I need 2.

I see other active cables that are advertised to do 18 Gbps at longer lengths for much less money. For 35-40 feet do I need Fiber or just an active cable?

Thanks again for alerting me to what I should consider. I built my theater 8 years ago and non of this was an issue then.
Certainly does not have to be fiber. For longer cables that is usually what they are, but there are active cables that are not fiber that should work too for most things. Passive cables are just not very likely to work past 15 feet when you get into HDR and 4K and such.

I have not seen an active cable that could do eARC yet, but sounds like that isn't an issue for your setup, plain ARC should be sufficient. Some active cables are rather bandwidth limited on ARC and have issues with DD+ doing atmos from netflix it seems from what I have read. Plain stereo PCM should not cause a problem for any cable that supports ARC at all.

Streamed from netflix and amazon certainly will get you 10 bit HDR and even 12 bit dolby vision. Satellite or cable probably not yet. At some point I imagine they will have some 4k HDR channels, but seems not much offered yet. My cable provider has 8 channels in 4K available as far as I know, but I don't have the 4K capable receiver so no idea how much content they actually have. Half the channels are sport.

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post #24 of 30 Old 01-15-2019, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lsorensen View Post
Certainly does not have to be fiber. For longer cables that is usually what they are, but there are active cables that are not fiber that should work too for most things. Passive cables are just not very likely to work past 15 feet when you get into HDR and 4K and such.

I have not seen an active cable that could do eARC yet, but sounds like that isn't an issue for your setup, plain ARC should be sufficient. Some active cables are rather bandwidth limited on ARC and have issues with DD+ doing atmos from netflix it seems from what I have read. Plain stereo PCM should not cause a problem for any cable that supports ARC at all.

Streamed from netflix and amazon certainly will get you 10 bit HDR and even 12 bit dolby vision. Satellite or cable probably not yet. At some point I imagine they will have some 4k HDR channels, but seems not much offered yet. My cable provider has 8 channels in 4K available as far as I know, but I don't have the 4K capable receiver so no idea how much content they actually have. Half the channels are sport.
I am thinking I'll get some $44 active cables and then output off the TV's headphone jack for my analog audio and see how it goes. If it sounds bad I'll try the ARC.
I am leaning towards a Sony XBR.

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post #25 of 30 Old 01-15-2019, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
There has been some discussions on direct sunlight adversely affecting OLED panels over time so you might want to keep that in mind. I have a West facing window that sits at a right angle to our OLED and I keep the blinds closed during the time of the year when the sun shines directly thru the window.
Oh great. The whole reason why I keep the blinds open is that I like sunlight and a bright home.

I think I'll risk it. I'm pretty far north, almost Canada. It's not like I'm in Arizona or something where the sunlight is so powerful that people's blinds start to droop.
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post #26 of 30 Old 01-15-2019, 03:14 PM
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Oh great. The whole reason why I keep the blinds open is that I like sunlight and a bright home.

I think I'll risk it. I'm pretty far north, almost Canada. It's not like I'm in Arizona or something where the sunlight is so powerful that people's blinds start to droop.
Good luck. Sunlight is pretty much sunlight so just keep an eye on your panel as time goes by.
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post #27 of 30 Old 01-15-2019, 07:29 PM
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Interrupting just on the grounds of question #1 . I have floor to ceiling windows in my living room. The entire far wall is glass. I've been using LED, i had the Vizio P Quantum for instance. But with LG offering uncompromised HDMI 2.1, I was going to go OLED for the first time. I take it based on the previous replies that the C9 won't suit? Yes, I have blinds but I do love natural sunlight and the view. Oh, and LG's lcds are trash so that isn't an option.

I really thought given the PQ and features, an OLED panel would be perfect. Didn't realize that pure nits were a possible obstacle until now.
Soooo, you're going to be enjoying your window "view" as you are watching an intriguing 4K HDR movie ? I say "Have at it then !"
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post #28 of 30 Old 01-15-2019, 08:47 PM
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Soooo, you're going to be enjoying your window "view" as you are watching an intriguing 4K HDR movie ? I say "Have at it then !"
Why does this possibility appear to disturb you so much? You're so vexed! Thanks for thinking so loftily of me and my tastes I suppose.

I never did mention what content I watch. An HDR or DV movie would likely be later on in the evening when sunlight isn't an issue and I can still enjoy the panaromic cityscape that irritates you so much as a backdrop. But when I'm home on an occasional Sunday, I tend to watch older (try Hollywood's golden age old) films with no HDR to speak of and often in need of remastering, watch futbol or MMA with friends, or play PS4 and no I'm not going to set some mood lighting to drink cider and eat snacks with friends in the afternoon. That's rather anal from my perspective and I doubt my friends would get it either.

But thanks to some of the others who made real contributions. The wall the tv goes on is adjacent, not opposite, so it is not catching direct sun and it seems for the few precious hours a week that it would be viewed in that light I could get away with it and still have an easily visible and not degraded picture with OLED. I think I'll give it a shot. I'd prefer the Sony Z9G for the brightness and superior motion handling but that's going to be out of my budget. If a C9 doesn't work out I just might have to try TCL's new 8 series although I wouldn't trust their upscaling to be as good as LG or the overall PQ.
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post #29 of 30 Old 01-16-2019, 06:58 AM
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Well I sincerely hope this works out great for you.
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post #30 of 30 Old 01-16-2019, 09:32 AM
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But thanks to some of the others who made real contributions. The wall the tv goes on is adjacent, not opposite, so it is not catching direct sun and it seems for the few precious hours a week that it would be viewed in that light I could get away with it and still have an easily visible and not degraded picture with OLED. I think I'll give it a shot. I'd prefer the Sony Z9G for the brightness and superior motion handling but that's going to be out of my budget. If a C9 doesn't work out I just might have to try TCL's new 8 series although I wouldn't trust their upscaling to be as good as LG or the overall PQ.

That's similar to my setup. The "sunny" window sits at a 90 degree angle, and to the left of the panel and gets afternoon sunlight (West facing window) in the winter time, so I just keep the blinds closed on that window during the day. Once spring and summer gets here, the angle of the sun is such that the light hits the wall behind the couch, which is opposite the C8 so I can leave those blinds open. There is another window in the room which faces North, and is in a alcove to the right and behind the tv so we can leave those blinds open all day long without any fear of direct light hitting the panel. The room is rather large (it's a bonus room upstairs over the garage) so the windows are spaced far apart. At night, we just close the blinds and use a bias light behind the panel.

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