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post #31 of 104 Old 03-02-2019, 08:56 AM
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Burn in is not an inevitability, it affects a small subset of users, especially if you have a 2018 oled which has the best burn in resistance so far (and im sure 2019 models will be at least as good on this front. )

I had a plasma for many years it did not develop BI, ive been using a lg c8 as a pc monitor daily (roughly 6 hours ) for about seven months now, i dont see BI. I take the basic precautions and everything works fine.


I can get to drive the most expensive car but still there is a small risk of a road accident, so should i stop driving cars?
I can buy stocks of a healthy company, but still there is a small risk that the company may flounder in the future and i may lose money, so should i stop investing in the stock market?

Well i do drive a car, i buy stocks, i use an oled currently and used a plasma previously. I approach stuff with a positive mindset. 'What if...' is a negative way to approach something. However, if you're one of those negative nancies with BI, i would advise that you just stay away from oled, you probably deserve an lcd (and the blooming, clouding, dse that comes as part of the package.)
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post #32 of 104 Old 03-02-2019, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Menarini View Post
Burn in is not an inevitability, it affects a small subset of users, especially if you have a 2018 oled which has the best burn in resistance so far (and im sure 2019 models will be at least as good on this front. )

I had a plasma for many years it did not develop BI, ive been using a lg c8 as a pc monitor daily (roughly 6 hours ) for about seven months now, i dont see BI. I take the basic precautions and everything works fine.


I can get to drive the most expensive car but still there is a small risk of a road accident, so should i stop driving cars?
I can buy stocks of a healthy company, but still there is a small risk that the company may flounder in the future and i may lose money, so should i stop investing in the stock market?

Well i do drive a car, i buy stocks, i use an oled currently and used a plasma previously. I approach stuff with a positive mindset. 'What if...' is a negative way to approach something. However, if you're one of those negative nancies with BI, i would advise that you just stay away from oled, you probably deserve an lcd (and the blooming, clouding, dse that comes as part of the package.)

Wow, what an arrogant post. From what you typed it sounds like you got a little money in your pocket. Not a big deal if a cheap TV gives you a little trouble.


Well some people out there don't have the luxury. They save their pennies and some even use their income tax return just to have something a little special once a year.



Some having doubts about whether their purchase might possibly give them trouble down the road is not unreasonable. Sounds logical for someone with little disposable income.



And I have this feeling that if you did get burn in on your OLED , we would never hear about it. You would just quietly go purchase another and act like nothing happened.
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post #33 of 104 Old 03-02-2019, 01:59 PM
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Quoted because it's worth repeating.
Captions, too. Anyone dependent on subtitles might want to give a flagship LCD a second thought.
Even white subtitles? Reference?

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post #34 of 104 Old 03-02-2019, 02:37 PM
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Yes, will just take longer for the aging to become apparent. I've seen a single report of such occurring for a 2016 owner here at 8k hours. I'm at almost 5k hours so I'm looking for an LCD supplement to enjoy during the day and for leisurely viewing.
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post #35 of 104 Old 03-02-2019, 02:51 PM
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No it would not, in his case he is watching alot of regular tv (no point in getting OLED then). Sooner or later a burn-in is inenvitible.
Why is regular TV a burn in problem? It certainly is not. I did mention cable news channels and how if you torture yourself with that stuff for hours a day on end then you should get something else. But regular TV? Like sports, shows, etc? Cmon, 100% harmless. Been doing it for over two years. Absolutely zero burn in whatsoever and I never will either.

Let’s not overstate this. Please.
You do know that you didn't make any sense right. Regular TV channels are full with static images. It's well know that an OLED television can't handle that after a while and it haves nothing to do with cumulative viewing habits. OLED's do wear out and most of the time it's unevenly. Especially with TV logo's they are almost always on the same corners. Also remember that your own experience most of the time doesn't represent the overall experience of people.
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post #36 of 104 Old 03-02-2019, 04:42 PM
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You do know that you didn't make any sense right. Regular TV channels are full with static images. It's well know that an OLED television can't handle that after a while and it haves nothing to do with cumulative viewing habits. OLED's do wear out and most of the time it's unevenly. Especially with TV logo's they are almost always on the same corners. Also remember that your own experience most of the time doesn't represent the overall experience of people.
Please don't spread misinformation. You need to watch thousands of cumulative hours of specific content with static elements such as CNN os MSNBC logos of individual video game HUDs to develop burn-in on LGs WOLED TVs.

LG has now sold a total of close to 10 Million WOLED TVs and the total number of customers whose viewing habits have resulted in burn-in is probably not much over 1000 (certainly far less than 10,000).

The excellent work done by rtings.com has proven that increased light output increases the aging rate, so burn-in at 380cd/m2 peak will occur after 2800 hours of cumulative CNN viewing but with light output decreased to 200cd/m2 peak will extend the cumulative hours of CNN to develope equivalent levels of burn-in to 4740 hours: https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/real...d-burn-in-test

In addition, the rtings.com 2016 burn-in test has proven that typical/random content results in no signs of burn-in after 10,580 cumulative hours (and counting): https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/perm...rn-in-lcd-oled

Only people whose viewing habits are exceedingly non-random and include thousands of hours of static element viewing need to be cocerned about burn-in on WOLED (especially if they view with light output cranked up to max).

If you are not a heavy gamer, a cable-news junkie, or stream all of your content with subtitles enabled, you have little reason to be concerned about burn-in on WOLED.

WOLEDs age very randomly from random content and you really need to view a great deal on non-random content (especially static logos and HUDs) before you will cause differential aging.

As far as overall aging and lifetime, the 2016 WOLED is now past 10,000 hours without any signs of brightness degradation or color gamut degredation, compared to the IPS LED/LCD which started losing brightness at 4000 hours and started losing color gamut at 7000 hours.

There are some use cases / viewing habits that are better suited to burn-in-immune viewing on LED/LCD, but the 99.9% of us that primarily use our TVs to view random content really have nothing to worry about (especially if streaming and bluray movies dominates your viewing time).
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post #37 of 104 Old 03-02-2019, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Oplasmic View Post
Wow, what an arrogant post. From what you typed it sounds like you got a little money in your pocket. Not a big deal if a cheap TV gives you a little trouble.


Well some people out there don't have the luxury. They save their pennies and some even use their income tax return just to have something a little special once a year.



Some having doubts about whether their purchase might possibly give them trouble down the road is not unreasonable. Sounds logical for someone with little disposable income.



And I have this feeling that if you did get burn in on your OLED , we would never hear about it. You would just quietly go purchase another and act like nothing happened.
lol arrogancy? I made a simple point, that if you're already approaching it with a negative mindset, then you shouldn't bother, in other words if you're already so skeptical, then forget oled it isn't meant for you, go invest your money in a lcd. Infact with such a mindset, i would say no emissive technology is ever meant for you. I however dont approach it that way with 'ifs and buts' scenarios, the last part of your post is just that.
Far as income goes, oleds arent exactly budget tv's but lg oleds are now at an affordable price (see a 55 " price), see how much a samsung qled premium model is priced to a lg oled of the same screen size, it's more expensive.
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post #38 of 104 Old 03-02-2019, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Please don't spread misinformation. You need to watch thousands of cumulative hours of specific content with static elements such as CNN os MSNBC logos of individual video game HUDs to develop burn-in on LGs WOLED TVs.

LG has now sold a total of close to 10 Million WOLED TVs and the total number of customers whose viewing habits have resulted in burn-in is probably not much over 1000 (certainly far less than 10,000).

The excellent work done by rtings.com has proven that increased light output increases the aging rate, so burn-in at 380cd/m2 peak will occur after 2800 hours of cumulative CNN viewing but with light output decreased to 200cd/m2 peak will extend the cumulative hours of CNN to develope equivalent levels of burn-in to 4740 hours: https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/real...d-burn-in-test

In addition, the rtings.com 2016 burn-in test has proven that typical/random content results in no signs of burn-in after 10,580 cumulative hours (and counting): https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/perm...rn-in-lcd-oled

Only people whose viewing habits are exceedingly non-random and include thousands of hours of static element viewing need to be cocerned about burn-in on WOLED (especially if they view with light output cranked up to max).

If you are not a heavy gamer, a cable-news junkie, or stream all of your content with subtitles enabled, you have little reason to be concerned about burn-in on WOLED.

WOLEDs age very randomly from random content and you really need to view a great deal on non-random content (especially static logos and HUDs) before you will cause differential aging.

As far as overall aging and lifetime, the 2016 WOLED is now past 10,000 hours without any signs of brightness degradation or color gamut degredation, compared to the IPS LED/LCD which started losing brightness at 4000 hours and started losing color gamut at 7000 hours.

There are some use cases / viewing habits that are better suited to burn-in-immune viewing on LED/LCD, but the 99.9% of us that primarily use our TVs to view random content really have nothing to worry about (especially if streaming and bluray movies dominates your viewing time).
No you shouldn't spread out misinformation. Exactly this kind of things let people believe that burn-ins is somehow based on many hours of watching of specific content. This is simply not true and absolutely false You simply cannot calculate when and how fast OLED pixels decreases. Also your claim that only people with an exceedingly viewing habits are likely to have those kind of problems is so not true. The burn-in topic alone proofs how wrong you are. Their are many cases of people who only watch their tv for a small amount of time mostly in the weekend, and still it happens.
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post #39 of 104 Old 03-02-2019, 06:21 PM
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The most basic /common sense approach you can take to mitigate the small risk of BI is the oled light/ luminance setting, when you're not watching hdr content, keep the oled light/luminance setting to 1/4th or lower of its maximum setting. This is one more advantage of watching in a dark room, that you can do with a low setting and still find the image bright enough. My oled light/luminance setting on the lg c8, when not watching hdr , is set to 18.
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post #40 of 104 Old 03-02-2019, 06:31 PM
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lol arrogancy? I made a simple point, that if you're already approaching it with a negative mindset, then you shouldn't bother, in other words if you're already so skeptical, then forget oled it isn't meant for you, go invest your money in a lcd. Infact with such a mindset, i would say no emissive technology is ever meant for you. I however dont approach it that way with 'ifs and buts' scenarios, the last part of your post is just that.
Far as income goes, oleds arent exactly budget tv's but lg oleds are now at an affordable price (see a 55 " price), see how much a samsung qled premium model is priced to a lg oled of the same screen size, it's more expensive.

You're right. I'm out.
You guys enjoy your Oleds. I'll enjoy mine.
I'll never post in this forum again. I don't see the point.
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post #41 of 104 Old 03-02-2019, 06:32 PM
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IMO. OLED has better blacks and better viewing angle. But, looking at some of the newer LED sets compared to OLED, it is getting much closer. A new LED will probably look better then your old set and save you some money.
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post #42 of 104 Old 03-02-2019, 06:51 PM
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... if you're already so skeptical, then forget oled it isn't meant for you, ...
So forget evidence. You have to have faith. You gotta believe.
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post #43 of 104 Old 03-02-2019, 06:53 PM
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No you shouldn't spread out misinformation. Exactly this kind of things let people believe that burn-ins is somehow based on many hours of watching of specific content. This is simply not true and absolutely false You simply cannot calculate when and how fast OLED pixels decreases. Also your claim that only people with an exceedingly viewing habits are likely to have those kind of problems is so not true. The burn-in topic alone proofs how wrong you are. Their are many cases of people who only watch their tv for a small amount of time mostly in the weekend, and still it happens.
Actually, you can. If you want to see how, peruse the last few month's of the rtings.com thread here on AVS. But I doubt you will - seems you have made up your mind and no amount of objective 3rd-party facts is going to overcome that obstinance...
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post #44 of 104 Old 03-02-2019, 07:02 PM
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So forget evidence. You have to have faith. You gotta believe.
What exactly is your contribution to this discussion?
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post #45 of 104 Old 03-02-2019, 07:06 PM
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OLED for sure.
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post #46 of 104 Old 03-02-2019, 07:34 PM
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IMO. OLED has better blacks and better viewing angle. But, looking at some of the newer LED sets compared to OLED, it is getting much closer. A new LED will probably look better then your old set and save you some money.
A 2018 lg c8 in 55" can be had for under 2000 usd. Point me to one of these awesome new 2019 'led's' (you meant lcd) that look better (or on the same level) and costs less.
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post #47 of 104 Old 03-02-2019, 07:34 PM
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If you are not a heavy gamer, a cable-news junkie, or stream all of your content with subtitles enabled, you have little reason to be concerned about burn-in on WOLED.
My C8 is year old soon and it is used for console gaming on daily basis. Not a single sign of burn in. Pixel shift and logo dimming are off.
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post #48 of 104 Old 03-02-2019, 07:38 PM
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My C8 is year old soon and it is used for console gaming on daily basis. Not a single sign of burn in. Pixel shift and logo dimming are off.
Problem is people with a negative mindset on BI will not pay heed to the large number of people out there who report no burn in, they will always gravitate towards reports, tests that say burn in, so they can feel assured that their beliefs are right. Confirmatory bias surely plays a part.

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post #49 of 104 Old 03-02-2019, 08:04 PM
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Actually, you can. If you want to see how, peruse the last few month's of the rtings.com thread here on AVS. But I doubt you will - seems you have made up your mind and no amount of objective 3rd-party facts is going to overcome that obstinance...
No point paying attention to him fafrd, he's been trolling these forums with the same nonsense. He didn't believe my 2015 Oled didn't have BI either.

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post #50 of 104 Old 03-02-2019, 08:07 PM
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Problem is people with a negative mindset on BI will not pay heed to the large number of people out there who report no burn in, they will always gravitate towards reports, tests that say burn in, so they can feel assured that their beliefs are right. Confirmatory bias surely plays a part.
This is comparable to what is called loss aversion in the investment world. Engaging in a risky enterprise, people worry much more about suffering from losses than they relish the possible profits. In investing, loss aversion is a fallacy that dissuades people from good investments.

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post #51 of 104 Old 03-02-2019, 09:07 PM
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The way some people in this thread talk you'd think burn-in is entirely up to chance, e.g. comparing to getting into a car accident etc. It is fundamentally not like that; it is, for example, entirely possible to guarantee burn-in will never occur (by only ever displaying 100% random content), and likewise guarantee that it will occur (by displaying non-random content for a sufficient period of cumulative time).

The fact of the matter is, any time an OLED is emitting light, it is aging. If there are differences in output between two emitters (two subpixels), they will age at different rates. Over a long period of time, if the cumulative age of some emitters grows to be much greater than others (from displaying sufficiently non-random content) the more aged emitters will appear dimmer and you'll start to be able to notice changes in the picture, which can manifest as what we call burn-in. Bright, highly saturated content will age emitters faster than dim, desaturated content. Saturated colors will age emitters faster than equivalent-brightness white/grayscale, due to color filters losses.

If you watch any non-random content regularly and for long enough, the question is not if, but when burn-in start to become noticeable. Now, it may well be that (depending on how it's used), that point may lie beyond the TV's practical lifetime (though this will obviously be different for everyone). Precisely when that point comes is impossible to know without knowing exactly what you'll be watching over the next x years of your ownership of the TV, but you can and should take steps to minimize the rate of differential aging by avoiding displaying highly-saturated non-random content on a regular basis.
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post #52 of 104 Old 03-03-2019, 02:49 AM
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Except for bugs.
Bugs? You mean bug shows? Please 'splain.....

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post #53 of 104 Old 03-03-2019, 02:54 AM
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You do know that you didn't make any sense right. Regular TV channels are full with static images. It's well know that an OLED television can't handle that after a while and it haves nothing to do with cumulative viewing habits. OLED's do wear out and most of the time it's unevenly. Especially with TV logo's they are almost always on the same corners. Also remember that your own experience most of the time doesn't represent the overall experience of people.
Watching varied content isn’t what most people do? Huh? What? My use case probably represents a large percentage of the viewing patterns of people out there. Every TV wears out eventually. By the time my OLED and most others wear out wed have long moved onto something else. Logos on screen here and there don’t cause any issues whatsoever. It’s the constant, hours and hours nonstop of specific channels that can cause problems. If all you are watching is cable news then you should buy a TV at wal mart anyways since you’re wasting premium PQ on that crap.

The only thing we "know" is that OLED PQ is top-tier right now and has been for a few years. For those that are scared or watch too much CNN....go buy an LCD and have fun. Your loss.

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post #54 of 104 Old 03-03-2019, 04:29 AM
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Except for bugs.
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Bugs? You mean bug shows? Please 'splain.....

Bugs are the logos at the lower right corner of the screen, or sometimes the lower left, which identify the entity showing you the video. The CNN logo that people complain about so much is a bug. On the regular broadcast/cable/satellite channels, they are almost ubiquitous, these days. I just did a spot check on DirecTV, and the only bugless channel I found was HDnet Movies. Sony, MGM, Showtime all had bugs. Bugs are a deterrent to piracy.
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post #55 of 104 Old 03-03-2019, 04:43 AM
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Bugs are the logos at the lower right corner of the screen, or sometimes the lower left, which identify the entity showing you the video. The CNN logo that people complain about so much is a bug. On the regular broadcast/cable/satellite channels, they are almost ubiquitous, these days. I just did a spot check on DirecTV, and the only bugless channel I found was HDnet Movies. Sony, MGM, Showtime all had bugs. Bugs are a deterrent to piracy.
Ahhhhh - OK. Never heard them called that. Most channels have "got the memo" these days and display their logos transparently which is the right way to do it. Even with an LCD, Id still rather NOT have gaudy logos plastered on the screen the entire time. Its stupid. As for anti-piracy....really? They are that worried about it? OK then.

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post #56 of 104 Old 03-03-2019, 09:44 AM
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A 2018 lg c8 in 55" can be had for under 2000 usd. Point me to one of these awesome new 2019 'led's' (you meant lcd) that look better (or on the same level) and costs less.
I never said equal or better, but good quality at a lower price. Of course, the are LCD TVs, but are referred to as LED as opposed to CCFL backlighting if you want to be specific. LED just became a catchall name for all LED backlighted sets when both existed. If you want a good looking set at a good price, there is the Vizio P65 which is 10" larger, looks really good and is half the price of the 55" OLED. Sure, there is a difference, but not as great as it once was, especially in a well lit room as opposed to very dark, and that is what most people have.
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post #57 of 104 Old 03-03-2019, 09:51 AM
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Another OLED vs LCD Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by golfster View Post
I never said equal or better, but good quality at a lower price. Of course, the are LCD TVs, but are referred to as LED as opposed to CCFL backlighting if you want to be specific. LED just became a catchall name for all LED backlighted sets when both existed. If you want a good looking set at a good price, there is the Vizio P65 which is 10" larger, looks really good and is half the price of the 55" OLED. Sure, there is a difference, but not as great as it once was, especially in a well lit room as opposed to very dark, and that is what most people have.


Actually to be completely accurate “led”
was a term coined by Samsung in order to deceive customers into believing it was not an lcd . Samsung has a history of this with the latest example being “qled” .


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post #58 of 104 Old 03-03-2019, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
Samsung has a history of this with the latest example being “qled” .
True. I like you Brutus avatar. I was an Ohio State grad way back and was there in the stands... well...when ......TBDBITL played "Hang on Sloopy" for the first time. I still have the 45 they recorded.
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post #59 of 104 Old 03-03-2019, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antarius View Post
My C8 is year old soon and it is used for console gaming on daily basis. Not a single sign of burn in. Pixel shift and logo dimming are off.
What matters is 2 things:

1/ Cunulative hours of any specific static HUDs, especially static elements that are bright fully-saturated yellow/orange/red.

2/ OLED Light setting (light output level).

We don't yet have any data for 2018 WOLEDs yet, though they ought go be betterthan the 2017s due to the larger red subpixel (reduced red current density).

On a 2017, you'd need to display a bright fully-saturated yellow/orange/red static element for a cunulative total of at least 2800 hours with OLED Light set to max (100) before you'd see any signs of burn-in and I doubt you've pkayed that many hours of any specific game in just one year (8 hours of gameplay each and every day for 350 days...).

Since we have no data on 2018s yet, it would be great if you wouldn't mind occassionally posting on the WOLED burn-in and 10,000 hours threads. What would be interesting to get an update from you every ~3months or so would be:

-Cumulative hours of TV use
-OLED Light Setting
-Estimate of total cumulative hours of whatever game HUD is the most risky (bright fully-saturated yellow/orange/red static elements)
-Picture of game HUD as well as picture of red field showing no signs of burn-in.

Of course, none of this is worth posting updates on until you get close to 3000 hours of any specific gameplay HUD with risky static elements...
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post #60 of 104 Old 03-03-2019, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
What matters is 2 things:

1/ Cunulative hours of any specific static HUDs, especially static elements that are bright fully-saturated yellow/orange/red.

2/ OLED Light setting (light output level).

We don't yet have any data for 2018 WOLEDs yet, though they ought go be betterthan the 2017s due to the larger red subpixel (reduced red current density).

On a 2017, you'd need to display a bright fully-saturated yellow/orange/red static element for a cunulative total of at least 2800 hours with OLED Light set to max (100) before you'd see any signs of burn-in and I doubt you've pkayed that many hours of any specific game in just one year (8 hours of gameplay each and every day for 350 days...).

Since we have no data on 2018s yet, it would be great if you wouldn't mind occassionally posting on the WOLED burn-in and 10,000 hours threads. What would be interesting to get an update from you every ~3months or so would be:

-Cumulative hours of TV use
-OLED Light Setting
-Estimate of total cumulative hours of whatever game HUD is the most risky (bright fully-saturated yellow/orange/red static elements)
-Picture of game HUD as well as picture of red field showing no signs of burn-in.

Of course, none of this is worth posting updates on until you get close to 3000 hours of any specific gameplay HUD with risky static elements...
Doesn't this completely ignore the poor fools that have reported seeing burn-in with a relatively short amount of hours? Whats the excuse then?
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