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post #61 of 104 Old 03-03-2019, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by kp117 View Post
Doesn't this completely ignore the poor fools that have reported seeing burn-in with a relatively short amount of hours? Whats the excuse then?
Point me to the report and I'll do my best to provide an explanation. Pretty much every reported case of burn-in that we have run to ground (through cooperation and additional details with the owner) has fit the 'model' uncovered by the data from rtings.com's excellent burn-in testing.

Burn-in on WOLED is a far simpler and more straightforward story than many disgruntled owners would like us to believe.

Since LG has been discretely making those disgruntled owners (primarily of 2016 WOLEDs) whole with out-of-warranty screen replacements, the level if 'noise' on the whole issue of WOLED burn-in has finally started to subside.
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post #62 of 104 Old 03-03-2019, 02:07 PM
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Just want to put two cents in regarding the room brightness issue -- it all depends what your tolerances and priorities are.

My viewings are probably 10% dark room, 60% dim room, 30% bright during the day. During the day the room really is bright, being next to a window with two skylights not far away. Yet even during the day I continue to be thrilled with my OLED (C6). I've never felt like it wasn't bright enough -- far from it. I would never trade those perfect blacks for the extra brightness.

I say this mainly to point out that nothing beats doing a comparison and figuring out what you prioritize using your own two eyes.
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post #63 of 104 Old 03-03-2019, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by dw3007 View Post
Just want to put two cents in regarding the room brightness issue -- it all depends what your tolerances and priorities are.

My viewings are probably 10% dark room, 60% dim room, 30% bright during the day. During the day the room really is bright, being next to a window with two skylights not far away. Yet even during the day I continue to be thrilled with my OLED (C6). I've never felt like it wasn't bright enough -- far from it. I would never trade those perfect blacks for the extra brightness.

I say this mainly to make the point that nothing beats doing a comparison and figuring out what you prioritize using your own two eyes.
I concur. I rarely watch during the day but have bight sunlight streaming into the living-room though a full-glass back wall and a large window on one side wall. Never considered that my 65C6P wasn't bright enough even under these extreme viewing conditions (while the 65VT60 plasma I tried briefly was totally unwatchable during the day.

There is a huuuuge difference between 120cd/m2 and peak brightness capability exceeding 3X that level for viewing in a bright room...
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post #64 of 104 Old 03-03-2019, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Point me to the report and I'll do my best to provide an explanation. Pretty much every reported case of burn-in that we have run to ground (through cooperation and additional details with the owner) has fit the 'model' uncovered by the data from rtings.com's excellent burn-in testing.

Burn-in on WOLED is a far simpler and more straightforward story than many disgruntled owners would like us to believe.

One of the two RTINGS TVs began showing uniformity problems by the first measurement on week 2. By week 4 (560 hours), you can already begin to read the breaking news banner text on the gray slide.

http://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/t...gray-large.jpg


Moreover, it is actually the less bright of the two CNN TVs that begins showing uniformity problems first, which is not quite so simple and straightforward.
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post #65 of 104 Old 03-03-2019, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by convexmacrolabs View Post
One of the two RTINGS TVs began showing uniformity problems by the first measurement on week 2. By week 4 (560 hours), you can already begin to read the breaking news banner text on the gray slide.

http://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/t...gray-large.jpg


Moreover, it is actually the less bright of the two CNN TVs that begins showing uniformity problems first, which is not quite so simple and straightforward.
I believe you're referring to the 2017 Rtings.com test, right?

Lighter areas are a reflection of overcompensation of measured/estimated burn-in, not burn-in itself.

Burn-in becomes visible as darkened areas after the headroom reserved for burn-in compensation has been exhausted.

So first, it is likely that LGD has made improvements to this first-generation burn-in compensatiin algorithm to avoid/reduce the issue of overcompensation of burn-in in general (lightened areas) [but we unfortunately don't have any data/confirmation of this yet].

And second, the minor degree of burn-in overconpensation exposed by the 2017 burn-in testing is mild enough that it is unlikely to ever be apparent on actual content (visible on foelds only)

These two facts as well as the fact that 2 years in we jave seen so few reportsof burn-in on 2017 WOLEDs (1% of 2016 burn-in reports after the same timeframe) all llay in to my statement that the entire issue of differential aging of burn-in on WOLEDs has largely been addressed/resolved by LGD (thpugh 2018s likey delivered an improvemenet over 2017 levels and 2019s WOLEDs will likely deliver a further imrocement upon that).

p.s. if you track the dual-week by dual-week images, you'll see that first nonuniformity shows up as lightened overcompensation, then it reversus to ~perfect uniformity again, and then it continues to reverse to darkened areas of differential aging / burn-in.

This is the reason that the 200cd/m2 CNN WOLED is still showing lightened overcompensation areas while the 380 cd/m2 CNN Max TV shows relatively less nonuniformity close to perfection (it hs reversed but has not yet exposed darkened areas). Continue further and you will see that around week 24 the CNN @ 200 cd/m2 has reversed back close to perfection while the CNN Max TV @ 380cd/m2 is showing severe enough darkened burn-in areas to possibly/likely be visible on actual content (red fields).

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post #66 of 104 Old 03-03-2019, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Achillias View Post
No it's your loss that you'd seems to blind. Blind in seeing that you're not representing the overall population of OLED users. People who did got their panel burned in with watching the same variable content. With less or more hours than your current TV currently has. Overall you can't make a general assumption based on your own experience. Speak for yourself not for others. Their are many cases (even on this website) which are proofing your wrong view on this subject.
Okee dokee then. Thanks for your input and everything. Maybe you can go hit the LCD threads and help them guys out now since you're done here? Just a thought.
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post #67 of 104 Old 03-03-2019, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
I believe you're referring to the 2017 Rtings.com test, right?

Lighter areas are a reflection of overcompensation of measured/estimated burn-in, not burn-in itself.

Burn-in becomes visible as darkened areas after the headroom reserved for burn-in compensation has been exhausted.

So first, it is likely that LGD has made improvements to this first-generation burn-in compensatiin algorithm to avoid/reduce the issue of overcompensation of burn-in in general (lightened areas) [but we unfortunately don't have any data/confirmation of this yet].

And second, the minor degree of burn-in overconpensation exposed by the 2017 burn-in testing is mild enough that it is unlikely to ever be apparent on actual content (visible on foelds only)

These two facts as well as the fact that 2 years in we jave seen so few reportsof burn-in on 2017 WOLEDs (1% of 2016 burn-in reports after the same timeframe) all llay in to my statement that the entire issue of differential aging of burn-in on WOLEDs has largely been addressed/resolved by LGD (thpugh 2018s likey delivered an improvemenet over 2017 levels and 2019s WOLEDs will likely deliver a further imrocement upon that).

p.s. if you track the dual-week by dual-week images, you'll see that first nonuniformity shows up as lightened overcompensation, then it reversus to ~perfect uniformity again, and then it continues to reverse to darkened areas of differential aging / burn-in.

This is the reason that the 200cd/m2 CNN WOLED is still showing lightened overcompensation areas while the 380 cd/m2 CNN Max TV shows relatively less nonuniformity close to perfection (it hs reversed but has not yet exposed darkened areas). Continue further and you will see that around week 24 the CNN @ 200 cd/m2 has reversed back close to perfection while the CNN Max TV @ 380cd/m2 is showing severe enough darkened burn-in areas to possibly/likely be visible on actual content (red fields).

Yes, I'm referring to the 2017 test.

Personally, I consider this argument that bright uniformity problems don't count as burn-in to be splitting hairs. If it is a wear-related uniformity problem, then it is burn-in, in my book. Overcompensation is the TV trying - and failing - to compensate for the effects of wear.

I understand that from a technical perspective it can be interesting to make such a distinction, because it allows us to speculate about how a hypothetical TV with a better compensation system might fare. However, from an owner's perspective, what matters is the actual performance you get. With the compensation system on the 2017 OLEDs, it appears that burn-in (or burn-in overcompensation if you prefer) could start occurring as early as ~250 hours if you get unlucky (and since we only have 2 sample points, we don't know how low it actually goes).

We can hope that newer models have better compensation systems, but without hard evidence, it's just that - hope. As it is, we don't know how well the current compensation works or whether there is a panel lottery on compensation, as it appears with the 2017 models. Given that, I don't think it is really fair to tell prospective buyers who are nervous about burn-in that they have nothing to worry about for 2800 hours as if it is a hard fact.
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post #68 of 104 Old 03-03-2019, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by convexmacrolabs View Post
Yes, I'm referring to the 2017 test.

Personally, I consider this argument that bright uniformity problems don't count as burn-in to be splitting hairs. If it is a wear-related uniformity problem, then it is burn-in, in my book. Overcompensation is the TV trying - and failing - to compensate for the effects of wear.

I understand that from a technical perspective it can be interesting to make such a distinction, because it allows us to speculate about how a hypothetical TV with a better compensation system might fare. However, from an owner's perspective, what matters is the actual performance you get. With the compensation system on the 2017 OLEDs, it appears that burn-in (or burn-in overcompensation if you prefer) could start occurring as early as ~250 hours if you get unlucky (and since we only have 2 sample points, we don't know how low it actually goes).
Not at levels that would be visible on actual content...

Quote:
We can hope that newer models have better compensation systems, but without hard evidence, it's just that - hope. As it is, we don't know how well the current compensation works or [/b]whether there is a panel lottery on compensation, as it appears with the 2017 models. [/b]Given that, I don't think it is really fair to tell prospective buyers who are nervous about burn-in that they have nothing to worry about for 2800 hours as if it is a hard fact.
I've seen absolutely no evidence that there is any 'panel lottery' associated with propensity for burn-in nor for effectiveness of burn-in compensation. If you've got any evidence for such a claim, I'd love to see it.

When it comes to these discussions regarding burn-in, if you're focus is on 'hard facts' and absolute guarantees rather than the reasonable 'bell-curve' of liklihood, you're probably better off sticking to LED/LCD.

I stand by my statement that for the 99%+ of Premium TV Consumers that will determine the sucess or failure of LGD's pioneering initiative to introduce WOLED TV technology, LGD is now 'over the hump' on this entire vulnerability / weakness regarding burn-in...
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post #69 of 104 Old 03-03-2019, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by RoadLizard View Post
Okee dokee then. Thanks for your input and everything. Maybe you can go hit the LCD threads and help them guys out now since you're done here? Just a thought.
You have to scratch your head at how much time / energy / investment is being put into attempting to influence one consumer's buying decision (though I suppose the same can be said about our efforts to combat the spread of FUD and misinformation ).
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post #70 of 104 Old 03-03-2019, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
Yes, will just take longer for the aging to become apparent. I've seen a single report of such occurring for a 2016 owner here at 8k hours. I'm at almost 5k hours so I'm looking for an LCD supplement to enjoy during the day and for leisurely viewing.
Ok, on my plasma with over 5200 hours, there is still no sign of burn in. I’ve used subtitles about 80 to 90% of the time.

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post #71 of 104 Old 03-03-2019, 07:43 PM
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After reviewing all the OLED pro comments, the OP ultimately purchased a Samsung Q90R LCD.


OLED black crush, motion judder, poor auto brightness limiter, image retention, burn-in, etc. probably contributed to his decision even though quickly dismissed/diverted when brought up in discussions. I know these are high on my list of unacceptable attributes and how anyone can promote them as normal or pretend they don't exist is beyond me. These things are bigly and unqualify for most bestest imo. I won't go into detail about these common OLED problems. Instead I'll play devils advocate and bash my LCD that I prefer.


Light blooming on LCD's is very real. I own one. This is probably the largest complaint. It's honestly my only complaint and I live with it because I find it acceptable given other faults I would inherit had I went a different route like OLED. Truthfully, I never see it during movie playback, cable broadcast, or any other source. I've looked intently for it and never saw it ultimately forgetting to look anymore because it never reveals itself despite being ahem, educated that it should.


However, I should not use the word "never". I do notice it during credit roles after the movie plays, when I could care less. White letters against a black background that goes on for minutes of credits has flash lighting constantly. My black bars are inky black after calibrating. The same depth of black as when the screen is off. I read comments that LCD can't get this deep. I must have a miracle here or the commenters are blindly commenting. I know the pride OLED commands in its blacks. Personally, I don't think it's cornered anything given my own results and without any crush mind you.


I place subtitles below the video in the black bar to avoid blocking the picture or worse yet, blending with a like colored background becoming camouflaged. Under this condition I see light bloom in the bottom corners of the black bar only and it is slight. Very slight. It doesn't interfere with the video at all. I could eliminate it completely by crushing the black calibration (yuck) or raise the subs into the video (yuck again). I also notice light bloom when I boot my PC (I use this display as my PC monitor too) as all the boot info against the black background appears. Again, I could care less tbh. I use a black desktop background. There is no blooming unless I place white icons on the desktop which is rare. These are honestly the only times I see the most common complaint about LCD's... light bloom.


Off angle viewing isn't the best either but myself and my guests are in front of the panel, not off to the sides where it becomes troublesome. Truth be told, I don't care what kind of display or PJ you have. Anytime you move off too far to one side or the other we all have an inherent problem. Off axis aspect ratio of sorts. Download a picture of a circle from google. Display it. Look at it head on. It's round. Move off to one side or the other. It's oblong. I could care less how colorful oblong looks. When Captain Americas shield isn't round anymore, I need to rethink where I'm sitting rather than how red, white and blue the shield remains. Faces are even more disturbing.


This is a little testimony regarding fake news, over amplification and real world examples.


This goes into a little more OLED con details based on the authors opines -

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post #72 of 104 Old 03-03-2019, 09:01 PM
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^The mission continues. Your black level experience is subjective and doesn't have the benefit of auditioning an OLED directly next to it like they have at, I don't know, every shootout since OLED was introduced in 2014. In sci-fi, horror, and other low APL content, your LCD will falter. There's nothing magical about it. Funny how you avoided the topic of black crush as relates to the QLEDs but immediately pinned that as an OLED-only problem (which it isn't with a competent calibration). I'm not interested in reading your highly one-sided and repetitive diatribes anymore so will just add you to the list (not a snowflake as much as I am susceptible to an overabundance of BS, including that video by the YouTube enthusiast who fancies himself an expert like you).

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post #73 of 104 Old 03-03-2019, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
^The mission continues. Your black level experience is subjective and doesn't have the benefit of auditioning an OLED directly next to it like they have at, I don't know, every shootout since OLED was introduced in 2014. In sci-fi, horror, and other low APL content, your LCD will falter. There's nothing magical about it. Funny how you avoided the topic of black crush as relates to the QLEDs but immediately pinned that as an OLED-only problem (which it isn't with a competent calibration). I'm not interested in reading your highly one-sided and repetitive diatribes anymore so will just add you to the list (not a snowflake as much as I am susceptible to an overabundance of BS, including that video by the YouTube enthusiast who fancies himself an expert like you).
If the OP has in fact decided to ho with a Q90, I honestly don't understand why any of us continue to put energy/effort into this thread.

On the other hand, you really have to ask yourself where these posters come from - 10 posts and writes as though he is god's gift to TV assessment... Please.
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post #74 of 104 Old 03-04-2019, 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
After reviewing all the OLED pro comments, the OP ultimately purchased a Samsung Q90R LCD.


OLED black crush, motion judder, poor auto brightness limiter, image retention, burn-in, etc. probably contributed to his decision even though quickly dismissed/diverted when brought up in discussions. I know these are high on my list of unacceptable attributes and how anyone can promote them as normal or pretend they don't exist is beyond me. These things are bigly and unqualify for most bestest imo. I won't go into detail about these common OLED problems. Instead I'll play devils advocate and bash my LCD that I prefer.


Light blooming on LCD's is very real. I own one. This is probably the largest complaint. It's honestly my only complaint and I live with it because I find it acceptable given other faults I would inherit had I went a different route like OLED. Truthfully, I never see it during movie playback, cable broadcast, or any other source. I've looked intently for it and never saw it ultimately forgetting to look anymore because it never reveals itself despite being ahem, educated that it should.


However, I should not use the word "never". I do notice it during credit roles after the movie plays, when I could care less. White letters against a black background that goes on for minutes of credits has flash lighting constantly. My black bars are inky black after calibrating. The same depth of black as when the screen is off. I read comments that LCD can't get this deep. I must have a miracle here or the commenters are blindly commenting. I know the pride OLED commands in its blacks. Personally, I don't think it's cornered anything given my own results and without any crush mind you.


I place subtitles below the video in the black bar to avoid blocking the picture or worse yet, blending with a like colored background becoming camouflaged. Under this condition I see light bloom in the bottom corners of the black bar only and it is slight. Very slight. It doesn't interfere with the video at all. I could eliminate it completely by crushing the black calibration (yuck) or raise the subs into the video (yuck again). I also notice light bloom when I boot my PC (I use this display as my PC monitor too) as all the boot info against the black background appears. Again, I could care less tbh. I use a black desktop background. There is no blooming unless I place white icons on the desktop which is rare. These are honestly the only times I see the most common complaint about LCD's... light bloom.


Off angle viewing isn't the best either but myself and my guests are in front of the panel, not off to the sides where it becomes troublesome. Truth be told, I don't care what kind of display or PJ you have. Anytime you move off too far to one side or the other we all have an inherent problem. Off axis aspect ratio of sorts. Download a picture of a circle from google. Display it. Look at it head on. It's round. Move off to one side or the other. It's oblong. I could care less how colorful oblong looks. When Captain Americas shield isn't round anymore, I need to rethink where I'm sitting rather than how red, white and blue the shield remains. Faces are even more disturbing.


This is a little testimony regarding fake news, over amplification and real world examples.


This goes into a little more OLED con details based on the authors opines - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_8iDnGaKhs


This guy is a joke the fact you are citing him as a source is laughable , he knows nothing !


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post #75 of 104 Old 03-04-2019, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
^The mission continues. Your black level experience is subjective and doesn't have the benefit of auditioning an OLED directly next to it like they have at, I don't know, every shootout since OLED was introduced in 2014. In sci-fi, horror, and other low APL content, your LCD will falter. There's nothing magical about it. Funny how you avoided the topic of black crush as relates to the QLEDs but immediately pinned that as an OLED-only problem (which it isn't with a competent calibration). I'm not interested in reading your highly one-sided and repetitive diatribes anymore so will just add you to the list (not a snowflake as much as I am susceptible to an overabundance of BS, including that video by the YouTube enthusiast who fancies himself an expert like you).
Yeah, really. That guy is the LCD pimp for sure. He’s just mad that OLED has pushed LCDs OUT of the legit high end tier and relagated them to second tier status. Sorry. It happens. Blooming is one of MANY massive flaws with LCD technology and only the absolutely top LCDs like the best Sony’s even come close to getting it somewhat right. The middle tier Samsung LCDs that these guys try to claim are good are just terrible TVs. They are perfect for slapping over the fireplace and leaving on torch mode but any even moderately serious video hobbyist wouldn’t watch content they cared about on one if their life depended on it. I mean, this guy claims that LCD black levels are on par with OLED. OK, right. Uh huh.

Anyways, back to our excellent TVs guys. Just let them keep ranting. It’s solid entertainment if nothing else. And yes, make good use of the ignore list.....it really is a wonderful tool that we have here. I wish these guys would just go to the LCD threads and offer their insightful advice. Right?

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post #76 of 104 Old 03-04-2019, 04:42 AM
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There is a huuuuge difference between 120cd/m2 and peak brightness capability exceeding 3X that level for viewing in a bright room...
I was persuaded to try high-brightness highlights by Dolby's demonstration that when given control of dynamic range, users turn the top of the range up to 10,000 nits. When I got Samsung sets that could handle more brightness, I realized what I had been missing in the naturalness of outdoors scenes, and I really liked HDR, even the simulated HDR that Samsung offers. So much better than all my old crt, plasma, and the one oled set that I had had. I would never go back to that old, dim world.
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post #77 of 104 Old 03-04-2019, 07:05 AM
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post #78 of 104 Old 03-04-2019, 08:59 AM
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I don't think anyone would post in this thread if that was the case As mentioned he has decided on his purchase so there might not be any point keeping this thread anymore as we know there is only going to be more bickering. No matter what I say here OLED owners are going to take it personally as they always seem to but both technologys have big negatives. Whether it be blooming, crush, ABL, Lack of high end brightness for HDR, backlight issues, Image retention/burn in and motion issues. If he has picked the Q90 then that's good for him. They appear to have finally fixed one of the big negatives of LCD which im sure will be the reason many others will go for that set as viewing angles are no longer a draw back. Coupled with the supposed best blacks on an LCD so far and pretty much no blooming it's not a bad choice at all.
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post #79 of 104 Old 03-16-2019, 09:08 AM
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Okee dokee then. Thanks for your input and everything. Maybe you can go hit the LCD threads and help them guys out now since you're done here? Just a thought.
No you're done here, so go hit the LCD threads and stay there.
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post #80 of 104 Old 03-16-2019, 09:25 AM
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No you're done here, so go hit the LCD threads and stay there.
OK, I will and thanks again.

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post #81 of 104 Old 03-16-2019, 06:10 PM
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OLED all day, every day. That people still debate this stuff is laughable to me since OLED image quality is incredible and clearly superior to even the best fald based set.

Before I got my C8 a year ago, I had a bit of concern with the whole burn-in chance given I game a lot. I can say I have not seen a hint of burn in or even image retention. based on my experience, this is a massively overblown issue.
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post #82 of 104 Old 03-16-2019, 06:21 PM
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I came to this thread to get educated. I remember when I bought my plasma, most were telling me to RUN from it because of "burn-in". I am now at 19,200 hours and have zero burn-in.

I am not saying it doesn't happen, because I am sure it does. But I wouldn't let a slim chance of that happening change my thought process on buying one.
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post #83 of 104 Old 05-14-2019, 05:47 AM
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OLED just might have to worry about the new Hisense Dual-Cell ULED XD TV coming on the market here in 2020...

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post #84 of 104 Old 05-14-2019, 06:02 AM
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That most new or supposedly new TV technologies try to mimic "OLED" in their spelling and logo is quite telling as to who is worried about whom.
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post #85 of 104 Old 05-14-2019, 12:34 PM
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Again, I know there are already many subforums here, but this shade-casting on OLED from concern trolling gets mighty old.
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post #86 of 104 Old 05-14-2019, 01:37 PM
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OLED just might have to worry about the new Hisense Dual-Cell ULED XD TV coming on the market here in 2020...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K60iwf7nvzU
Im sure LG is shaking in their proverbial boots...
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post #87 of 104 Old 05-14-2019, 08:15 PM
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I came to this thread to get educated. I remember when I bought my plasma, most were telling me to RUN from it because of "burn-in". I am now at 19,200 hours and have zero burn-in.

I am not saying it doesn't happen, because I am sure it does. But I wouldn't let a slim chance of that happening change my thought process on buying one.
It is strange I have my Windows task bar burned into my Panasonic plasma and there is also burn in from playing movies with black bars but my parent's have a Samsung 720p plasma they have used everyday for years watching nothing but cable television and it has no visible burn in at all. I feel like I have to get an OLED because I do not like the picture on LCD there is something about human faces that just do not look natural to me at all on that tech. I feel like I would definitely get burn in on an OLED as I am not careful about how I use my TV.

Even with the burn in on my plasma I don't really care about it when I am focusing on whatever I am watching and the picture still looks great 98% of the time.
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post #88 of 104 Old 05-15-2019, 05:01 PM
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Im sure LG is shaking in their proverbial boots...






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post #89 of 104 Old 05-16-2019, 06:21 PM
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WOW! The Hisense XD ULED has an 1000000:1 static contrast ratio...that's on OLED level!
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post #90 of 104 Old 05-16-2019, 06:29 PM
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WOW! The Hisense XD ULED has an 1000000:1 static contrast ratio...that's on OLED level!


Do you work for them ?


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