LG Announces 2019 OLED Pricing & Availability - Page 12 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #331 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by BRAC View Post
Cumulative opinion...really?

How many people have actually seen a C9, let alone had the opportunity to properly test and compare it to an A9F?

I’ve seen at least an equal number of people in this thread alone that prefer the 2018 C8 to the A9F. They all have their own ‘equally valid’ reasons as well.
If they really are equal , then why did the c8 not tie with a9f in all the categories at the shootout? Fine that you saw an equal number of people preferring the c8 on the forum, but the shootout results dont matter?

There is plenty of c9 information available as i post on other forums too, you make a claim that the tv's are about equal, well what does the c9 have which is the equivalent of sony's pixel contrast booster on the a9f? still seems nothing. what PM does the c9 have that is the equivalent of the professional 1 preset mode on the panasonic fz oleds and that level of ootb color accuracy? still seems nothing.
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post #332 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 11:30 AM
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You can continue trying to justify paying triple the price for a 1% difference in performance all you want. But I've seen all Sony's and prefer the brighter image, vastly superior DV, better gaming, much less annoying abl versus slightly better motion and upscaling.

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Some videophiles purchase Premium TVs to view poor-quality sources - I'm not one of them.

So for those like me who primarily view Blurays and UHD Streaming thought high-speed internet, upscaling is pretty mich immaterial.

Motion is a ore complicated subject. LGs 2019 crystal Motion delivering 3.5ms MPRT at least catches up with and may surpass Sony as far as BFI/persistance. For the cases when interpolation is engaged, we'll need to wait for an assessment as to how close the 2019 LGs catch up to the Sonys...
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post #333 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 11:31 AM
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Every year Sony fans all of a sudden become experts on new LG models that that they've never even seen.

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I'm not even a Sony fan, let alone have any brand loyalty. I'll ditch the A9F as soon as I get my hands on GZ2000, just like I did to LG once I had the A9F.

Just because the A9F is at a premium price point, doesn't mean it is equal or not worth the price difference. Maybe that is true to some not for me. I want the best PQ and the Sony A9F gives me that.
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post #334 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 11:34 AM
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If they really are equal , then why did the c8 not tie with a9f in all the categories at the shootout? Fine that you saw an equal number of people preferring the c8 on the forum, but the shootout results dont matter?

There is plenty of c9 information available as i post on other forums too, you make a claim that the tv's are about equal, well what does the c9 have which is the equivalent of sony's pixel contrast booster on the a9f? still seems nothing. what PM does the c9 have that is the equivalent of the professional 1 preset mode on the panasonic fz oleds and that level of ootb color accuracy? still seems nothing.
The LGs are budget OLED, well they do something going on for vs. Pana and Sony.
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post #335 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 11:37 AM
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If they really are equal , then why did the c8 not tie with a9f in all the categories at the shootout? Fine that you saw an equal number of people preferring the c8 on the forum, but the shootout results dont matter?



There is plenty of c9 information available as i post on other forums too, you make a claim that the tv's are about equal, well what does the c9 have which is the equivalent of sony's pixel contrast booster on the a9f? still seems nothing. what PM does the c9 have that is the equivalent of the professional 1 preset mode on the panasonic fz oleds and that level of ootb color accuracy? still seems nothing.


BINGO! You said it...the shootout results don’t matter at all. Put together a second shootout with the same sets and different participants and you might get completely different results.

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post #336 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 11:37 AM
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I'm not even a Sony fan, let alone have any brand loyalty. I'll ditch the A9F as soon as I get my hands on GZ2000, just like I did to LG once I had the A9F.

Just because the A9F is at a premium price point, doesn't mean it is equal or not worth the price difference. Maybe that is true to some not for me. I want the best PQ and the Sony A9F gives me that.
Well they can throw any 'sony fan' label they want, i own a lg c8 right now, im just looking for the best 65 this year i can for my theater room , the a9g and panasonic gz2000 are equally on my consideration list , i'll demo them and buy whatever looks best to my eyes. Also looking forward to the shootouts and the results.
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post #337 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 11:38 AM
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Some cideophiles purchase Premium TVs to view poor-quality sources - I'm not one of them.



So for those like me who primarily view Blurays and UHD Streaming thought high-speed internet, upscaling is pretty mich immaterial.



Motion is a ore complicated subject. LGs 2019 crystal Motion delivering 3.5ms MPRT at least catches up with and may surpass Sony as far as BFI/persistance. For the cases when interpolation is engaged, we'll need to wait for an assessment as to how close the 2019 LGs catch up to the Sonys...
I had the a8f and c8 side by side and with bad quality sources I literally had to walk up to the tv and look with a magnifying glass to notice a difference in upscaling and I still couldn't notice it.

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post #338 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 11:41 AM
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I'm not even a Sony fan, let alone have any brand loyalty. I'll ditch the A9F as soon as I get my hands on GZ2000, just like I did to LG once I had the A9F.



Just because the A9F is at a premium price point, doesn't mean it is equal or not worth the price difference. Maybe that is true to some not for me. I want the best PQ and the Sony A9F gives me that.
Yet you feel the need to come to an LG thread to make claims that your tv "blows away" LG. Right.

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post #339 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 11:44 AM
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BINGO! You said it...the shootout results don’t matter at all. Put together a second shootout with the same sets and different participants and you might get completely different results.
vincent teoh must be an idiot that he puts so much effort in organizing shootouts, so must robert and VE.
Funny enough, the samsung qled fans also have the same opinion as you 'shootouts dont matter' , because their tv doesnt win it.
Shootout results do matter to people who watch in a dedicated dark room environment and care about the tv reproducing accurate images. You are probably not one of them, nevermind.
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post #340 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 11:46 AM
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BINGO! You said it...the shootout results don’t matter at all. Put together a second shootout with the same sets and different participants and you might get completely different results.
What makes me laugh about Sony guys that keep bringing up shootout results: if shootout results are the be all end all, and they swear up and down that Sony has the best upscaling in the business, then why did Samsung win in the upscaling category? Riddle me that, Batman.

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post #341 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 11:47 AM
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Yet you feel the need to come to an LG thread to make claims that your tv "blows away" LG. Right.

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I didn't make the claim that my Sony "blows away" LG. I prefer Sony A9F vs. LG 2018 models. I just reported what I see and how I came to the conclusion. It is a few people on this thread that took my comments personally and got all worked up. I apologize if I hurt anyone's feeling. That was not my intention.

I came to LG's 2019 thread because I'm interested in the 65" E9 for my bedroom tv.
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I didn't make the claim that my Sony "blows away" LG. I prefer Sony A9F vs. LG 2018 models. I just reported what I see and how I came to the conclusion. It is a few people on this thread that took my comments personally and got all worked up. I apologize if I hurt anyone's feeling. That was not my intention.



I came to LG's 2019 thread because I'm interested in the 65" E9 for my bedroom tv.
Yes you did. You said "blows away the competition". Those were your exact words. Backtrack all you want, but it's clear what your agenda is.

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post #343 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 11:53 AM
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vincent teoh must be an idiot that he puts so much effort in organizing shootouts, so must robert and VE.

Funny enough, the samsung qled fans also have the same opinion as you 'shootouts dont matter' , because their tv doesnt win it.

Shootout results do matter to people who watch in a dedicated dark room environment and care about the tv reproducing accurate images. You are probably not one of them, nevermind.


Don’t put words in my mouth...shootouts are good fun and can be very informative. It’s the results that don’t matter, especially when the winning set wins by a thin razors edge. Like I said, different participants and you might get completely different results.

Everyone has an opinion and puts more or less emphasis on different criteria.

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LG Announces 2019 OLED Pricing & Availability

What I find amusing here is people arguing over (few percentage points at most) pq at the very top end of oled performance . Pretty silly really when you think about it . All the 2018 oleds are great and the 2019 sets will be equally stunning I am sure , if you think the tv you pick somehow elevates you above others then I feel sorry for you .


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post #345 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 11:57 AM
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Cumulative opinion, i deduce that he gives a small edge to the a9f. we'll see what the shootout between the a9g and lg c9/e9 brings out.
And im not pretending my opinion is more valid than anyone else, you can form your own opinion, by going and comparing the tv's in person whenever they are available and decide whatever is best for you.
I myself care for the best 65 oled i can put in my theater room, the a9g as well as the panasonic gz2000 are on my radar.
I went to the store to look at the sets again today, turning off the Peak Luminance control on the C9.

My personal opinion looking at both these set for a while now, For SDR, I still feel the A9F has a slightly "more vibrant and detailed" picture due to the Sony pixel booster, I believe. Motion and upscaling are extremely close with the Sony maybe still having a very slight edge. For HDR, the C9 has a noticeably brighter picture and the colors are more saturated than on the A9. As D-Nice described, you really need to calibrate HDR, and I prefer to use Calman's native mode process in order to calibrate your specific panel to get maximum brightness, in order to evaluate the HDR picture properly because out of the box, it's usually too bright and not strictly following the EOTF curve. Does one set "blow away" the other, No. Each set has it's own strengths and weaknesses and it will depend on you requirements and "taste" as to which set you like better. They are both excellent but NOT perfect and I feel LG has done a fantastic job with their 2019 OLEDs.

As far as DV, if you think it's too dark on the A9 you can make some adjustments to the gamma and advanced contrast to make the PQ look almost identical to the LG now that Sony has made some adjustments.
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post #346 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 11:58 AM
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Well they can throw any 'sony fan' label they want, i own a lg c8 right now, im just looking for the best 65 this year i can for my theater room , the a9g and panasonic gz2000 are equally on my consideration list , i'll demo them and buy whatever looks best to my eyes. Also looking forward to the shootouts and the results.
I agree with the first part where you said that you are looking to buy the tv that looks the best to "your" eyes. Then you go on to say you will.also look at the shootout results. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but not all the judges voted the same way. Making this a subjective contest. Not every judge voted mostly Sony. How can you assume your taste buds are more inline with the ones that voted for Sony? You should choose the tv that looks best to you, not the judges.

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post #347 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 11:59 AM
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Well things escalated quickly here...
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post #348 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 12:04 PM
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I went to the store to look at the sets again today, turning off the Peak Luminance control on the C9.

My personal opinion looking at both these set for a while now, For SDR, I still feel the A9F has a slightly "more vibrant and detailed" picture due to the Sony pixel booster, I believe. Motion and upscaling are extremely close with the Sony maybe still having a very slight edge. For HDR, the C9 has a noticeably brighter picture and the colors are more saturated than on the A9. As D-Nice described, you really need to calibrate HDR, and I prefer to use Calman's native mode process in order to calibrate your specific panel to get maximum brightness, in order to evaluate the HDR picture properly because out of the box, it's usually too bright and not strictly following the EOTF curve. Does one set "blow away" the other, No. Each set has it's own strengths and weaknesses and it will depend on you requirements and "taste" as to which set you like better. They are both excellent but NOT perfect and I feel LG has done a fantastic job with their 2019 OLEDs.

As far as DV, if you think it's too dark on the A9 you can make some adjustments to the gamma and advanced contrast to make the PQ look almost identical to the LG now that Sony has made some adjustments.
And just one thing to clear, when you compared them again, was it in a pitch black room? Generally the higher brightness would be an advantage when there is ambience light, in a pitch black environ. (what i use), 700 nits highlights look sufficiently bright.
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post #349 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 12:08 PM
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Well things escalated quickly here...
Like it does every year. FYI A9 processor was roughly the X1. A9 Gen2 is roughly the X1 Extreme.
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I agree with the first part where you said that you are looking to buy the tv that looks the best to "your" eyes. Then you go on to say you will.also look at the shootout results. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but not all the judges voted the same way. Making this a subjective contest. Not every judge voted mostly Sony. How can you assume your taste buds are more inline with the ones that voted for Sony? You should choose the tv that looks best to you, not the judges.

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I have to say something here because this was the first year I was involved working the VE Shootout and I know first hand how difficult it is to make everything as perfect as possible. What is fact is you get to view the sets, side by side, calibrated as exactly as can be reasonably done with reference equipment and by experiences calibrators, with many types of content in the same environment. The judgement on which set is better or worse is always going to be subjective because everyone's eyes see slightly different and we all have different needs and requirements but there is really no other way to get a comparative view of the sets on an even playing field like this in person with experienced people.
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post #351 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 12:09 PM
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I went to the store to look at the sets again today, turning off the Peak Luminance control on the C9.



My personal opinion looking at both these set for a while now, For SDR, I still feel the A9F has a slightly "more vibrant and detailed" picture due to the Sony pixel booster, I believe. Motion and upscaling are extremely close with the Sony maybe still having a very slight edge. For HDR, the C9 has a noticeably brighter picture and the colors are more saturated than on the A9. As D-Nice described, you really need to calibrate HDR, and I prefer to use Calman's native mode process in order to calibrate your specific panel to get maximum brightness, in order to evaluate the HDR picture properly because out of the box, it's usually too bright and not strictly following the EOTF curve. Does one set "blow away" the other, No. Each set has it's own strengths and weaknesses and it will depend on you requirements and "taste" as to which set you like better. They are both excellent but NOT perfect and I feel LG has done a fantastic job with their 2019 OLEDs.



As far as DV, if you think it's too dark on the A9 you can make some adjustments to the gamma and advanced contrast to make the PQ look almost identical to the LG now that Sony has made some adjustments.
Problem with DV is that it's darker than reference. Shadow detail gets crushed, even with advance contrast enhancer turned on. Raising gamma elevates grayscale so that's not really a solution and "DV bright" mode clips highlights. If recent firmware updates corrected this, why hasn't anyone brought it up in any discussion prior to this one?

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post #352 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 12:13 PM
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I agree with the first part where you said that you are looking to buy the tv that looks the best to "your" eyes. Then you go on to say you will.also look at the shootout results. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but not all the judges voted the same way. Making this a subjective contest. Not every judge voted mostly Sony. How can you assume your taste buds are more inline with the ones that voted for Sony? You should choose the tv that looks best to you, not the judges.

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Shootouts serve as a very good reference point. Sadly, all this downlaying of shootout results happens by people when their favorite piece of plastic doesnt turn up the winner. It's the same with samsung qled fans too 'shootout results dont matter'.

And on your point of subjectivity, if subjectivity is the irrational argument to denounce the shootout results, then why do you even give credence to reviews from professional publications? Doesn't the subjecivity of the professional reviewwer reviewing the tv factor into it?
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I have to say something here because this was the first year I was involved working the VE Shootout and I know first hand how difficult it is to make everything as perfect as possible. What is fact is you get to view the sets, side by side, calibrated as exactly as can be reasonably done with reference equipment and by experiences calibrators, with many types of content in the same environment. The judgement on which set is better or worse is always going to be subjective because everyone's eyes see slightly different and we all have different needs and requirements but there is really no other way to get a comparative view of the sets on an even playing field like this in person.
I understand that but one shouldn't choose a TV based on the total shootout score. They should research the areas that matter to them most. If I was very sensitive to motion and watched 90% cable tv, didn't game at all, watched much more hdr10 than DV, didn't watch sports affected by abl in a bright room like hockey , etc etc. I would probably choose a Sony.

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post #354 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 12:13 PM
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I went to the store to look at the sets again today, turning off the Peak Luminance control on the C9.

My personal opinion looking at both these set for a while now, For SDR, I still feel the A9F has a slightly "more vibrant and detailed" picture due to the Sony pixel booster, I believe. Motion and upscaling are extremely close with the Sony maybe still having a very slight edge. For HDR, the C9 has a noticeably brighter picture and the colors are more saturated than on the A9. As D-Nice described, you really need to calibrate HDR, and I prefer to use Calman's native mode process in order to calibrate your specific panel to get maximum brightness, in order to evaluate the HDR picture properly because out of the box, it's usually too bright and not strictly following the EOTF curve. Does one set "blow away" the other, No. Each set has it's own strengths and weaknesses and it will depend on you requirements and "taste" as to which set you like better. They are both excellent but NOT perfect and I feel LG has done a fantastic job with their 2019 OLEDs.

As far as DV, if you think it's too dark on the A9 you can make some adjustments to the gamma and advanced contrast to make the PQ look almost identical to the LG now that Sony has made some adjustments.
I'm not familiar with this Sony Pixel Booster technology - if both sets were being compared to a reference monitor, would Sony's Pixel Booster technology make it look closer to reference or would the increased vibrancy take it further away from reference?

I'm all for a more detailed and vibrant image, but not when it becomes more vibrant than the director intended...
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Problem with DV is that it's darker than reference. Shadow detail gets crushed, even with advance contrast enhancer turned on. Raising gamma elevates grayscale so that's not really a solution and "DV bright" mode clips highlights. If recent firmware updates corrected this, why hasn't anyone brought it up in any discussion prior to this one?

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All I can tell you is I had a calibrated C8 side by side with my A9F playing the same DV content at the same time and for me, I feel changing the Gamma to +1 and putting ACE on Low for the DV Dark PM on the Sony makes the two sets look almost identical. This is after all of the recent updates. I don't know how else you can really do a comparison. If you feel Gamma +1 is too much then set it back to 0 but ACE on Low does help the A9F with the highlights that the LG excels at.

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post #356 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 12:16 PM
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Like it does every year. FYI A9 processor was roughly the X1. A9 Gen2 is roughly the X1 Extreme.

Interesting.

Just curious...how did you determine this?

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post #357 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 12:18 PM
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I'm not familiar with this Sony Pixel Booster technology - if both sets were being compared to a reference monitor, would Sony's Pixel Booster technology make it look closer to reference or would the increased vibrancy take it further away from reference?

I'm all for a more detailed and vibrant image, but not when it becomes more vibrant than the director intended...
At the VE Shootout regardless of Sony's pixel booster which is on all the time, the Sony's picture matched the reference monitor better than the C8 with SDR. When I say vibrant, it may be the wrong term but i'm trying to explain the picture having better highlights and definetly not oversaturated or blown out. Hope this helps.

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post #358 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 12:20 PM
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Shootouts serve as a very good reference point. Sadly, all this downlaying of shootout results happens by people when their favorite piece of plastic doesnt turn up the winner. It's the same with samsung qled fans too 'shootout results dont matter'.



And on your point of subjectivity, if subjectivity is the irrational argument to denounce the shootout results, then why do you even give credence to reviews from professional publications? Doesn't the subjecivity of the professional reviewwer reviewing the tv factor into it?
You are putting words in people's mouths. I did not say shootout results were irrelevant. I just wouldn't choose a set solely based on the results of a shootout. Correct me if I'm wrong but the e6 won the shootout and my opinion wasn't any different back then either. Just like I wouldn't choose a tv based on Vincent's opinion either. I bring up Vincent's Dolby vision finding because that's not a subjective area. DV is darker than reference. Much darker than DV on LG. If you are ok with that, fine. I notice the difference in DV quality much more than I notice the upscaling quality difference with crappy cable channels.

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post #359 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 12:20 PM
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Another AVS thread that's gone off the rails. Guess I missed the part in the title that says "Sony vs. LG."
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There is no perfect display, quit looking for faults and enjoy

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post #360 of 532 Old 03-19-2019, 12:23 PM
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Don’t put words in my mouth...shootouts are good fun and can be very informative. It’s the results that don’t matter, especially when the winning set wins by a thin razors edge. Like I said, different participants and you might get completely different results.

Everyone has an opinion and puts more or less emphasis on different criteria.
lol so the shootouts results dont matter but the shootouts are good fun to have. umm okay. though i expect such comebacks on twitter or a YT comments section, not a science forum
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