LG Announces 2019 OLED Pricing & Availability - Page 15 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #421 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
Doesn't HDMI 2.1 allow for 4K HDR w/ 4:4:4 chroma? Im hoping next gen game systems will support it.
From what I understand, HDMI2.1 will handle 4K HDR 4:4:4 up to a framerate of 50Hz, but can only deliver 4K HDR 4:2:2 at 60 Hz: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI

HDMI2.1 can handle 4K HDR 4:4:4 up to 144Hz without DSC compression and can get all the way to 240Hz with DSC
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post #422 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Menarini View Post
I left out the ability to set custom tone mapping curves, so yes that's one more advantage, but on the hdr being noticeably brighter, im not getting the same opinion on another forum i post from a person who has the c9 to test. You posted it resolves ~861 nits on a hdr window, well i remember a couple of publications last year had the c8 a little higher than that (i even saw 900 nits being claimed on a hdr 10% window on the c8). It boils down to panel variance too and even how your meter is profiled. If you are speaking in perceptual terms that the c9 looks 'noticeably brighter' than last year's model, i dont know, the other opinion i'm reading says it looks only a tad brighter than c8 in a dark room when comparing sbs in movie mode, but not any difference that immeditiately jumps out at you. Maybe you could be right, but until i see the c9 for myself i cannot say.
I don't know why you are being dismissive of one of the few first hand reports we have of this set, not to mention from a very experienced calibrator.

Can we (and by we I mean you) try not to run off the most knowledgeable individuals who are providing valuable feedback on these TVs?
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post #423 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Yes I saw scenes from Aquaman, that was familiar. The focus was on the incremental improvements offered by improved processing, like eliminating flickering during a pan and how thew AI gets just a bit more pop out of the tonemapping. There was discussion about motion processing and how it can be used to reduce judder without introducing soap opera effect.

Anecdotally, I saw vertical banding in 2018 Sony and LG OLEDs showing a 15% gray full-screen pattern but the 2019 was totally clean. I did not see what happens at 5%.

I saw a bunch of patterns and clips from this nice goodie I picked up:

There's lots of great stuff for folks who are into custom calibration. Like creating your own custom tone maps and the use of a 31x31x31 LUT and the ability to fully calibrate Game Mode.

I saw the "classic" gasp-inducing demo of an OLED blowing away LED-LCD FALD when showing starfields. No question that's the situation that produces the starkest differences.

No discussion of burn-in during the session.

My general impression is LG is "perfecting" what OLED can do through processing. The technology's strengths remain the same, any content that has deep black in it truly pops, especially with the lights out, thanks to the technology's high native contrast.

Another thing demoed is the new implementation of the ambient light sensor that's supposed to be much more adept at adjusting the picture so it looks "right" under variable light.

And, of interest to tinkerers... the combination of built-in calibration patterns, new, brand-specific versions of CalMan that will sell(license) for $145, and AutoCal mean that hobbyists can tackle calibration on their own at a reasonable cost.... you just need to add a decent meter to the equation.
Mark, were you able to confirm any of the BFI functionality? Did they show 25%, 50%, 75% at 60Hz? Was anything said or shown as far as 50% BFI at 120Hz (of source content, meaning 240Hz Effective Refresh Rate)?
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post #424 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 12:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
I don't know why you are being dismissive of one of the few first hand reports we have of this set, not to mention from a very experienced calibrator.

Can we (and by we I mean you) try not to run off the most knowledgeable individuals who are providing valuable feedback on these TVs?
I'm not being dismissive of his findings, Im agreeing with the improvements he is mentioning, except for the claim of hdr looking noticeably brighter (measured ~861 nits), as im reading something different on another forum from a guy who has the set. There seems too much panel variance going on with these woled panels, someone can get a panel that can differ by as much as 100 nits.
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post #425 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Menarini View Post
I'm not being dismissive of his findings, Im agreeing with the improvements he is mentioning, except for the claim of hdr looking noticeably brighter (measured ~861 nits), as im reading something different on another forum from a guy who has the set. There seems too much panel variance going on with these woled panels, someone can get a panel that can differ by as much as 100 nits.
He is literally reporting that he is standing next to two calibrated sets, one with a 2018 panel and one with the 2019 panel and the 2019 is brighter, but because someone else in another forum made a different claim you are trying to downplay his observations.

Did the other owner calibrate his TV? What are his credentials? Why are you here?

These panels do have variation but 100 nits, well over 10% variation? Hard to believe that is the case.
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post #426 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Mark, were you able to confirm any of the BFI functionality? Did they show 25%, 50%, 75% at 60Hz? Was anything said or shown as far as 50% BFI at 120Hz (of source content, meaning 240Hz Effective Refresh Rate)?
The session did not get into it. I thought that was confirmed, deduced from measurements posted by here? I thought I saw a comment to that effect...

If I missed something and this was not essentially confirmed earlier post then I can send an email follow-up. I did show your post framing the question but did not actually get an answer on the spot.

-----

Separately, LG stated that when it comes to TVs, "premium largely equates with size" fwiw and stated an intention to "promote ultralarge" since the market is growing in the U.S.

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post #427 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 12:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
He is literally reporting that he is standing next to two calibrated sets, one with a 2018 panel and one with the 2019 panel and the 2019 is brighter, but because someone else in another forum made a different claim you are trying to downplay his observations.

Did the other owner calibrate his TV? What are his credentials? Why are you here?

These panels do have variation but 100 nits, well over 10% variation? Hard to believe that is the case.
Yes variances can possibly exist up to that extent, it can be between anywhere between 0-100 nits, this has been true of the previous few years model as well. how come the c8 had noticeable differences in peak brightness measured by different review publications?
But it's okay, i watch in a dedicated room with dark painted walls (no reflections), im not chasing brighter looking hdr anyway, 700 nit highlights seem sufficiently bright to me.
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post #428 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Menarini View Post
Yes variances can possibly exist up to that extent, it can be between anywhere between 0-100 nits, this has been true of the previous few years model as well. how come the c8 had noticeable differences in peak brightness measured by different review publications?
But it's okay, i watch in a dedicated room with dark painted walls (no reflections), im not chasing brighter looking hdr anyway, 700 nit highlights seem sufficiently bright to me.
Can you substantiate your claim of 100 nits of variation in these panels by somebody who actually knows what they are talking about and has the measuring equipment to prove it?

I've read dozens of OLED reviews over the last few years and I have never seen any professional calibrator or even qualified amateur claim a variation like that.
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post #429 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Menarini View Post
Yes variances can possibly exist up to that extent, it can be between anywhere between 0-100 nits, this has been true of the previous few years model as well. how come the c8 had noticeable differences in peak brightness measured by different review publications?
But it's okay, i watch in a dedicated room with dark painted walls (no reflections), im not chasing brighter looking hdr anyway, 700 nit highlights seem sufficiently bright to me.
Aside from set to set variances, the exact methodology of the measurement matters (window size, and how quickly you take the measurement). Set to set variance could also be related to screen uniformity... move the meter just a little and you'll see a small shift in output. Plus there are variances in measurement gear, and even then OLEDs are not "rock solid" stable at peak luminance, it's going to ramp down. And frankly, any "exact" number posted by any reviewer should be accompanied by some qualifier, like +/-10 nits or something.
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post #430 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 12:44 PM
 
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^Yeah there is more than just one variable in play here I know that, your meter profiling can also lead to reading measurement differences, but panel variances on these woleds are on the higher side (this is something that been true for the last couple of years) and do play a role.
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post #431 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
Can you substantiate your claim of 100 nits of variation in these panels by somebody who actually knows what they are talking about and has the measuring equipment to prove it?

I've read dozens of OLED reviews over the last few years and I have never seen any professional calibrator or even qualified amateur claim a variation like that.
Eliminating all variables would be tough. But I can offer you this nugget... when you calibrate a TV the peak luminance drops. Some TVs require more adjustment than others to fully calibrate plus there are variances in uniformity. So even if these were the only two factors involved you'd see some variance. I do not know what the +/- spread is from the average peak but I'd venture to say a pro calibrator would be the person most likely to have used the same methodology on multiple copies of the same TV and therefore be able to speak to it. Reviewers don't have multiple copies of a TV to work with so I do not have that info.

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post #432 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Aside from set to set variances, the exact methodology of the measurement matters (window size, and how quickly you take the measurement). Set to set variance could also be related to screen uniformity... move the meter just a little and you'll see a small shift in output. Plus there are variances in measurement gear, and even then OLEDs are not "rock solid" stable at peak luminance, it's going to ramp down. And frankly, any "exact" number posted by any reviewer should be accompanied by some qualifier, like +/-10 nits or something.
Have you measured 100 nits of difference in the same test pattern using the same measuring equipment on two different samples of the same model current generation LG OLED?
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post #433 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Have you measured 100 nits of difference in the same test pattern using the same measuring equipment on two different samples of the same model current generation LG OLED?
No, I have not gone through that exercise and since I am not a working pro calibrator it's not likely to be something I get around to. I doubt that level of variance would be typical, but I would not rule out it being theoretically possible.

I can EASILY see reviewers posting numbers with that sort of spread, due to other factors in methodology/measurement.

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post #434 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 12:49 PM
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Eliminating all variables would be tough. But I can offer you this nugget... when you calibrate a TV the peak luminance drops. Some TVs require more adjustment than others to fully calibrate plus there are variances in uniformity. So even if these were the only two factors involved you'd see some variance. I do not know what the +/- spread is from the average peak but I'd venture to say a pro calibrator would be the person most likely to have used the same methodology on multiple copies of the same TV and therefore be able to speak to it. Reviewers don't have multiple copies of a TV to work with so I do not have that ino.
Yes, I agree completely and that matches up with my own limited calibration experience.

What's more, as you mentioned, I can calibrate the same TV using the same equipment and the same calibration profile and get different readings that could be attributed to sensor position over the test pattern, very small differences in light pollution in the calibration area, temperature differences, etc.

I am just not buying the assertion that there is up to 100 nits of difference in two copies of the same model 2018 display and that the improved brightness being observed with a 2019 set could be attributed to "panel variations".

It would be difficult to have the software in the TV work properly with such a big variation for the built in profiles, would affect HDR reproduction, SDR reproduction, etc. Is there some variance? Sure, but it's likely a fraction of the "100" being advertised by someone who should know better.

That dog don't hunt.
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It won't be typical variance for sure, typical would be something between 0-50 nits, but upto 100 nits can happen with the variables in play, you are taking a reading with a meter.
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The session did not get into it. I thought that was confirmed, deduced from measurements posted by here? I thought I saw a comment to that effect...

If I missed something and this was not essentially confirmed earlier post then I can send an email follow-up. I did show your post framing the question but did not actually get an answer on the spot.
Yes, jrrref confrmed that the various BFI levels at 60Hz are available (so the rumor from Germany appears to be wrong), The one detail no one has yet been able to confirm is whether BFI is supported for 120Hz content, so if you could send a follow-up email asking whether 50% BFI can be activated for 120Hz sources (or 60Hz sources interpolated to 120Hz using Smooth Motion), I'd appreciate it.

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Separately, LG stated that when it comes to TVs, "premium largely equates with size" fwiw and stated an intention to "promote ultralarge" since the market is growing in the U.S.
For sure. We're gonna see the 88Z8, 77" WOLEDs will come down out of the stratosphere, and I'm predicting we'll see a 96/98" WOLED by next year or by 2021...

Of course, LG is also introducing a 48" WOLED, so 'growing' means in both directions when increasing manufacturing capacity at their pace .
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Originally Posted by Menarini View Post
It won't be typical variance for sure, typical would be something between 0-50 nits, but upto 100 nits can happen with the variables in play, you are taking a reading with a meter.
jrref stated that depending on how you elect to calibrate (making use of internal LUTs or limited to external controls) can result in as much as a 100 Nit difference in peak levels...

Whitepoint also has a significant impact, so it's important to confirm different identical displays have both been calibrated to an identical whitepoint (D65) to compare peak output levels...
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post #438 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, jrrref confrmed that the various BFI levels at 60Hz are available (so the rumor from Germany appears to be wrong), The one detail no one has yet been able to confirm is whether BFI is supported for 120Hz content, so if you could send a follow-up email asking whether 50% BFI can be activated for 120Hz sources (or 60Hz sources interpolated to 120Hz using Smooth Motion), I'd appreciate it.



For sure. We're gonna see the 88Z8, 77" WOLEDs will come down out of the stratosphere, and I'm predicting we'll see a 96/98" WOLED by next year or by 2021...

Of course, LG is also introducing a 48" WOLED, so 'growing' means in both directions when increasing manufacturing capacity at their pace .
Yeah, the only catch of course is LG said it planned to achieve this growth with a focus on ultralarge with its IPS TVs that are now equipped with FALD. But hey, fingers crossed on monster OLEDs.

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post #439 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Menarini View Post
It won't be typical variance for sure, typical would be something between 0-50 nits, but upto 100 nits can happen with the variables in play, you are taking a reading with a meter.
The issue I have with the statement you are making is it doesn't appear to be based in fact and appears to be based on your opinion. A moment ago you indicated that variation of 0-100 was normal and now, magically, 0-50 is "typical" (source?) but up to 100 can happen.

I am an engineer, I have a real problem when people pull "facts" (pro tip, not facts) out of their rear ends and present them as something that settles an argument.

The only people who for sure know what these variations are work at LG, Panasonic, Sony and they're not talking.

The 2nd group of people who "know" something are professional calibrators who have calibrated multiple copies of the same model set using the same test equipment.

Maybe 100 nits variation is possible, maybe it's 200 nits, why stop there, 300 nits? Maybe it's possible, stop presenting it as fact and stop discounting observations of pros who are reporting findings on the new models.
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Yes, jrrref confrmed that the various BFI levels at 60Hz are available (so the rumor from Germany appears to be wrong), The one detail no one has yet been able to confirm is whether BFI is supported for 120Hz content, so if you could send a follow-up email asking whether 50% BFI can be activated for 120Hz sources (or 60Hz sources interpolated to 120Hz using Smooth Motion), I'd appreciate it.



For sure. We're gonna see the 88Z8, 77" WOLEDs will come down out of the stratosphere, and I'm predicting we'll see a 96/98" WOLED by next year or by 2021...

Of course, LG is also introducing a 48" WOLED, so 'growing' means in both directions when increasing manufacturing capacity at their pace .
What would be the best BFI to use for lowest mprt and minimal brightness hit, 50% at 120hz? I never got around to using the bfi on the c8, the 60hz flicker was too distracting, just tried it once and permanently off it went.
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Yes, jrrref confrmed that the various BFI levels at 60Hz are available (so the rumor from Germany appears to be wrong), The one detail no one has yet been able to confirm is whether BFI is supported for 120Hz content, so if you could send a follow-up email asking whether 50% BFI can be activated for 120Hz sources (or 60Hz sources interpolated to 120Hz using Smooth Motion), I'd appreciate it.
Done, will let you know.
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This is not entirely true. I don't want to re-hash my post earlier in this thread but yes, motion is better and so is their upscaling as well with the new Alpha 9 pressor. HDR is Noticeably brighter and they have a new calibration process where you calibrate for 1,000, 4,000, 10,000 nits and you can even create a custom tone map. Once done, if your content's metadata is correct, the set will use the appropriate calibrated tone mapping solution. There are also some gaming features implemented with their HDMI 2.1 ports that will interest gamers.

Side by side at the store, the calibrated C9 has a noticeably "better" picture in all the PQ aspects that we normally talk about than the calibrated E8 right next to it with the same content.
For the sake of accuracy for those who do not know better, the C9 appears brighter than the 2018 LGs due to it not following the EOTF properly. Same thing Samsung attempted last year with the Q9 and was bashed for doing it.
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Originally Posted by Menarini View Post
What would be the best BFI to use for lowest mprt and minimal brightness hit, 50% at 120hz? I never got around to using the bfi on the c8, the 60hz flicker was too distracting, just tried it once and permanently off it went.
I can't say how much 25% is going to reduce 60Hz flicker, but it's going to come at the expense of a 50% increase in MPRT versus your C8 (to ~12ms).

75% BFI @ 60Hz will give you 3.5ms MPRT but I'd guess that the 60Hz flicker has got to be at least as bad as your C8, if not worse.

So the best BFI mode is likely to be 50% @ 120Hz (which is why I keep asking about it). You'll need to use smooth motion to motion-interpolate your source up to 120Hz, but then you should get 3.5ms MPRT @ much-less-noticable 120Hz flicker and only 25% loss of brightness.

I'm primarily interested in BFI / lower MPRT for viewing sports, where SOE is not a concern (and the improved motion interpolation hopefully rarely introduces artifacts).

For 24Hz content, the BFI capability offers little other than improved near-black uniformity but using VRR to present cinema content as a double-shutter 96Hz VRR stream (from an HTPC) is something I'll be interested to try...
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
Can you substantiate your claim of 100 nits of variation in these panels by somebody who actually knows what they are talking about and has the measuring equipment to prove it?

I've read dozens of OLED reviews over the last few years and I have never seen any professional calibrator or even qualified amateur claim a variation like that.
I’ve never measured a +- 100 variance between any two WRGB OLEDs of the same brand. Max is about 60 and most are +-30. When I do such luminance comparisons, I only use my PR-670 as colormeters profiled to a spectro are not good enough for me.
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I’ve never measured a +- 100 variance between any two WRGB OLEDs of the same brand. Max is about 60 and most are +-30. When I do such luminance comparisons, I only use my PR-670 as colormeters profiled to a spectro are not good enough for me.
To be fair to @Menarini , I think by 100 nits variance they mean total, i.e. +/-50 nits as the maximum. That's how I read it anyhow.

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post #446 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 01:35 PM
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For the sake of accuracy for those who do not know better, the C9 appears brighter than the 2018 LGs due to it not following the EOTF properly. Same thing Samsung attempted last year with the Q9 and was bashed for doing it.
I think we were talking about jrref's 100% peak white measurements, which he claimed were ~10% higher than he was getting on 2018 WOLEDs.

100% peak white measurements are pretty much independant of EOTF, right? EOTF controls how you get from 0% to 100% but the endpoint (100%) is determined more by ABL than it is by EOTF, correct?

As far as the 2019 WOLEDs following a jacked EOTF, will there be a way to calibrate that out? I can't believe LG decided to follow Samsung's bone-headed initiative but I suppose we've seen it before (curved screens )...
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post #447 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
This is not entirely true. I don't want to re-hash my post earlier in this thread but yes, motion is better and so is their upscaling as well with the new Alpha 9 pressor. HDR is Noticeably brighter and they have a new calibration process where you calibrate for 1,000, 4,000, 10,000 nits and you can even create a custom tone map. Once done, if your content's metadata is correct, the set will use the appropriate calibrated tone mapping solution. There are also some gaming features implemented with their HDMI 2.1 ports that will interest gamers.

Side by side at the store, the calibrated C9 has a noticeably "better" picture in all the PQ aspects that we normally talk about than the calibrated E8 right next to it with the same content.
Would you say the picture is worth roughly $1500 more ? Since that is about the difference between the C877 and the C977
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post #448 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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@fafrd , here's the official answer: "BFI is implemented in 120hz exactly the same as 60hz. There is a black frame inserted every single frame on a 120hz signal."
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post #449 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
From what I understand, HDMI2.1 will handle 4K HDR 4:4:4 up to a framerate of 50Hz, but can only deliver 4K HDR 4:2:2 at 60 Hz: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI

HDMI2.1 can handle 4K HDR 4:4:4 up to 144Hz without DSC compression and can get all the way to 240Hz with DSC
That wikipedia page uses VESA timings and not the usual HDMI CEA/CTA-861 timings. You need to use the CEA/CTA-861 timings if you want room for audio. CEA/CTA-861 50Hz and 60Hz have the blanking intervals set so that both take the exact same bandwidth. So for game console output both 50Hz and 60Hz can only give you 4:2:2 for 4K HDR using HDMI 2.0.

But yeah, HDMI 2.1 can do 4K HDR10 4:4:4 up to 144Hz and 4K DV 4:4:4 up to 120Hz without DSC.
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post #450 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
@fafrd , here's the official answer: "BFI is implemented in 120hz exactly the same as 60hz. There is a black frame inserted every single frame on a 120hz signal."
Fantastic - thanks.

Sounds like 50% BFI on 120Hz sources is a YES!
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