LG Announces 2019 OLED Pricing & Availability - Page 16 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #451 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
I think we were talking about jrref's 100% peak white measurements, which he claimed were ~10% higher than he was getting on 2018 WOLEDs.

100% peak white measurements are pretty much independant of EOTF, right? EOTF controls how you get from 0% to 100% but the endpoint (100%) is determined more by ABL than it is by EOTF, correct?
If measured quite a few 2018 OLEDs with 860 nit 10% windowed peak white so 2019s are the same from my perspective.

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As far as the 2019 WOLEDs following a jacked EOTF, will there be a way to calibrate that out? I can't believe LG decided to follow Samsung's bone-headed initiative but I suppose we've seen it before (curved screens )...
Hopefully via CalMan.... I’m speaking of HDR10
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post #452 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
I’ve never measured a +- 100 variance between any two WRGB OLEDs of the same brand. Max is about 60 and most are +-30. When I do such luminance comparisons, I only use my PR-670 as colormeters profiled to a spectro are not good enough for me.
That's extremely helpful, thanks DeWayne.
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post #453 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Menarini View Post
I left out the ability to set custom tone mapping curves, so yes that's one more advantage, but on the hdr being noticeably brighter, im not getting the same opinion on another forum i post from a person who has the c9 to test. You posted it resolves ~861 nits on a hdr window, well i remember a couple of publications last year had the c8 a little higher than that (i even saw 900 nits being claimed on a hdr 10% window on the c8). It boils down to panel variance too and even how your meter is profiled. If you are speaking in perceptual terms that the c9 looks 'noticeably brighter' than last year's model, i dont know, the other opinion i'm reading says it looks only a tad brighter than c8 in a dark room when comparing sbs in movie mode, but not any difference that immeditiately jumps out at you. Maybe you could be right, but until i see the c9 for myself i cannot say.
IDK, the HDR PQ jumped out at me on the C9.

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post #454 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by avernar View Post
That wikipedia page uses VESA timings and not the usual HDMI CEA/CTA-861 timings. You need to use the CEA/CTA-861 timings if you want room for audio. CEA/CTA-861 50Hz and 60Hz have the blanking intervals set so that both take the exact same bandwidth. So for game console output both 50Hz and 60Hz can only give you 4:2:2 for 4K HDR using HDMI 2.0.

But yeah, HDMI 2.1 can do 4K HDR10 4:4:4 up to 144Hz and 4K DV 4:4:4 up to 120Hz without DSC.
4K 30hz HDR with 4:4:4 [email protected] bit is the maximum that works from my hdmi 2.0b graphics card. If I try to push 4k60 or 50hz at 4:4:4 chroma, then the color depth gets lowered to 8 bit. 4k60 with 4:4:4 [email protected] bit is compatible with hdmi 2.0b... 10 and 12 bit would require hdmi 2.1.
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post #455 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
For the sake of accuracy for those who do not know better, the C9 appears brighter than the 2018 LGs due to it not following the EOTF properly. Same thing Samsung attempted last year with the Q9 and was bashed for doing it.

Which is what we spoke about two days ago with a Calman scan to support it! Yikes!
Thanks for re-pointing this out.

It's a shame a lot of folks just don't read the whole thread and just pick up on the last posts.

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post #456 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
If measured quite a few 2018 OLEDs with 860 nit 10% windowed peak white so 2019s are the same from my perspective.



Hopefully via CalMan.... I’m speaking of HDR10
Agreed, but to add, as you said, you and I saw some 2018 OLEDs measure over 800 nits not the majority and we both have the data to back that up.
The only other thing we need to consider is Neil Robinson is "claiming" that he believes, the panels are being pushed harder on the 2019 sets.

We really won't know if the panels are measuring brighter until we see a good sampling.

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post #457 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
IDK, the HDR PQ jumped out at me on the C9.
Okay, the perceptual differences that you saw in hdr brightness with your eyes playing your own content...i wont argue over that. other opinions i read on how brighter the hdr looked wouldn't be running the same content as you in the same environment.
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post #458 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Menarini View Post
Okay, the perceptual differences that you saw in hdr brightness with your eyes playing your own content...i wont argue over that. other opinions i read on how brighter the hdr looked wouldn't be running the same content as you in the same environment.
You have two experienced professional calibrators with data that backs it up, making a report about the C9's HDR and you still are challenging the claim.

Look for yourself -> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57766230
Look at the last scan which is the HDR scan. In this particular case, not knowing for sure if the panel is being pushed harder, for sure the EOTF tracking is showing why we are seeing increased HDR brightness.

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post #459 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
You have two experienced professional calibrators with data that backs it up, making a report about the C9's HDR and you still are challenging the claim.

Look for yourself -> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57766230
Look at the last scan which is the HDR scan. In this particular case, not knowing for sure if the panel is being pushed harder, for sure the EOTF tracking is showing why we are seeing increased HDR brightness.
I did not argue that side by side the c9 did not look any brighter with hdr (if you go back reading my original claim), just that the difference was not anything major. far as measurements go, i read you measured ~861 nits on the c9, how different is it from the c8 you measured last year?
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post #460 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Menarini View Post
4K 30hz HDR with 4:4:4 [email protected] bit is the maximum that works from my hdmi 2.0b graphics card. If I try to push 4k60 or 50hz at 4:4:4 chroma, then the color depth gets lowered to 8 bit. 4k60 with 4:4:4 [email protected] bit is compatible with hdmi 2.0b... 10 and 12 bit would require hdmi 2.1.
That matches what I have in my chart: https://imgur.com/xUPIxyA.png
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post #461 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Menarini View Post
I did not argue that side by side the c9 did not look any brighter with hdr (if you go back reading my original claim), just that the difference was not anything major. far as measurements go, i read you measured ~861 nits on the c9, how different is it from the c8 you measured last year?

That's because you are focusing on nits and not visual perception.
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post #462 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 02:23 PM
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For 24Hz content, the BFI capability offers little other than improved near-black uniformity but using VRR to present cinema content as a double-shutter 96Hz VRR stream (from an HTPC) is something I'll be interested to try...
IMO, it is the film/24Hz material that needs motion improvement. Panning scene "judder" is perceived because of the fast transition from one frame to the next.
In the cinema, these pans are fuzzy but do not appear to jump.

I was hoping that 25% BFI could improve the perceived motion.
@imagic can you give your impressions of BFI on 24Hz content?

Thanks,

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post #463 of 532 Old 03-21-2019, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
IMO, it is the film/24Hz material that needs motion improvement. Panning scene "judder" is perceived because of the fast transition from one frame to the next.
In the cinema, these pans are fuzzy but do not appear to jump.

I was hoping that 25% BFI could improve the perceived motion.
@imagic can you give your impressions of BFI on 24Hz content?

Thanks,

Rich
50% BFI is going to do next to nothing to improve panning judder on 24Hz content (because it's going to repeat the same frame 5 times, persistence is merely reduced 10% from 41.7ms to 37.5ms).

The best way to get cinema-like motion performance is to simulate double-shutter or triple-shutter projectors, as used for presentation in cinemas.

This requires using an HTPC to convert 24Hz content to a 96Hz (double-shutter) or 144Hz (triple-shutter) 50% BFI stream (through insertion of actual black frames) and then feeding that stream into the TV using VRR.

The result should avoid the 'fast transition' from one frame to the next exactly the way double-shutter and triple-shutter projectors achieve the same (reducing effective persistance by ~25% to 31.3 ms in the case of double-shutter or by ~17% to 34.7ms in the case of triple shutter)

Of course, this is all assumng you want to avoid motion interpolation and the SOE that introduces. If you don't mind SOE, there's a lot of improvement to motion that interpolation can offer and BFI can further reduce persistance beyond that...
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post #464 of 532 Old 03-22-2019, 06:29 AM
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LG Announces 2019 OLED Pricing & Availability

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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
IDK, the HDR PQ jumped out at me on the C9.

John Archer stated this about the C9
“In fact, they’re arguably the most intense looking peaks I’ve ever seen on an OLED TV – or at the very least they’re now a match for the HDR highlights Philips managed to eke out with its European 803 and 903 OLED models towards the end of 2018.”

So there’s more evidence of brighter HDR.
I’m just worried it’s at the expense of accurate PQ.


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post #465 of 532 Old 03-22-2019, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
John Archer stated this about the C9
“In fact, they’re arguably the most intense looking peaks I’ve ever seen on an OLED TV – or at the very least they’re now a match for the HDR highlights Philips managed to eke out with its European 803 and 903 OLED models towards the end of 2018.”

So there’s more evidence of brighter HDR.
I’m just worried it’s at the expense of accurate PQ.


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Here's where I'm at... LG did show improvement in perceptual highlight peaks with a direct comparison of C8 and C9 at the press demo I went to. The C9 had noticeably brighter peaks and the overall image was a bit "punchier" and this was attributed to AI-driven improvements in tonemapping.
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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
John Archer stated this about the C9
“In fact, they’re arguably the most intense looking peaks I’ve ever seen on an OLED TV – or at the very least they’re now a match for the HDR highlights Philips managed to eke out with its European 803 and 903 OLED models towards the end of 2018.”

So there’s more evidence of brighter HDR.
I’m just worried it’s at the expense of accurate PQ.


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And increased risk of burn-in.....
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post #467 of 532 Old 03-22-2019, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by New_to_4K View Post
And increased risk of burn-in.....


Vincent from HDTV test interviewed the head of Philips on YouTube and he stated the 2019 LG panel has some additional burn in prevention. I assume if it’s coming from that high level source it must be true.


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post #468 of 532 Old 03-22-2019, 08:42 AM
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On a separate note, has LG confirmed in writing the HDMI ports are capable of 48gbps bandwidth. Its funny I haven't seen it in any of their press release.

An acquaintance of mine is claiming that "LG is "hacking" a 2.1 certified HDMI solution by splitting the screen into 4 quadrants and sending the signals through 4 HDMI 2.0a pipelines".

Is this possible or even make sense?

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post #469 of 532 Old 03-22-2019, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
On a separate note, has LG confirmed in writing the HDMI ports are capable of 48gbps bandwidth. Its funny I haven't seen it in any of their press release.

An acquaintance of mine is claiming that "LG is "hacking" a 2.1 certified HDMI solution by splitting the screen into 4 quadrants and sending the signals through 4 HDMI 2.0a pipelines".

Is this possible or even make sense?
I've seen it in writing.
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Originally Posted by New_to_4K View Post
And increased risk of burn-in.....
You've run tests to confirm this yourself? You obviously don't have any interest in this product, and last time I checked it was an LG pricing thread. What does your opinion on the a9f blowing the c9 (a TV not even out yet) out of the water have to do with LG c9 pricing? Don't you think it's more appropriate to post your scientific observations on the a9f thread?

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post #471 of 532 Old 03-22-2019, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Hope this helps:

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post #472 of 532 Old 03-22-2019, 08:54 AM
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LG Announces 2019 OLED Pricing & Availability

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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Hope this helps:





Thank you!
It’s say “support for HDMI 2.1” but no where it states each Individual HDMI port can pass 48gbps. Maybe it doesn’t even matter.
Am I being silly? It’s interesting how LG is phrasing it.


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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
An acquaintance of mine is claiming that "LG is "hacking" a 2.1 certified HDMI solution by splitting the screen into 4 quadrants and sending the signals through 4 HDMI 2.0a pipelines".

Is this possible or even make sense?
Your acquaintance has no clue how HDMI works. The external port is HDMI 2.1 48Gbps. What the TV does internally to process this HDMI signal doesn't really matter but it wouldn't be converting it into multiple HDMI 2.0a signals. The latency on that would be way too high and doesn't gain your anything.
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post #474 of 532 Old 03-22-2019, 09:00 AM
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You've run tests to confirm this yourself? You obviously don't have any interest in this product, and last time I checked it was an LG pricing thread. What does your opinion on the a9f blowing the c9 (a TV not even out yet) out of the water have to do with LG c9 pricing? Don't you think it's more appropriate to post your scientific observations on the a9f thread?

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Who are you to judge my opinions and make decisions on behalf - my dislike or likes and where should I post? If you don't have anything nice to say about anyone and start another vs. thread as you did with others on the forum, keep your opinions to yourself.

BTW, I have burn-in on my LG OLED and also jrref mentioned LG has one the settings on High by default due to increased chances of burn-in in the C9 that he calibrated.
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post #475 of 532 Old 03-22-2019, 09:04 AM
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Your acquaintance has no clue how HDMI works. The external port is HDMI 2.1 48Gbps. What the TV does internally to process this HDMI signal doesn't really matter but it wouldn't be converting it into multiple HDMI 2.0a signals. The latency on that would be way too high and doesn't gain your anything.
Good enough, its the real 2.1 deal then.
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post #476 of 532 Old 03-22-2019, 09:12 AM
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And increased risk of burn-in.....
Start at 2:50, gimme them extra nits. TP Vision's picture quality guru, Danny Tack mentions burn in prevention for the 2019 panel.

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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
Start at 2:50, gimme them extra nits. TP Vision's picture quality guru, Danny Tack mentions burn in prevention for the 2019 panel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a266DHBeyA
Thanks. Good to know. I'm using my A9F cautiously due to fear of burn-in. Thinking getting the Q90 or E9 as my second tv so that I can juggle between A9F and the another tv to reduce burn-in chances.
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post #478 of 532 Old 03-22-2019, 09:39 AM
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Thanks. Good to know. I'm using my A9F cautiously due to fear of burn-in. Thinking getting the Q90 or E9 as my second tv so that I can juggle between A9F and the another tv to reduce burn-in chances.


It’s expensive but the Best Buy warranty covers burn-in. Since I’ll be gaming on my C9 it’s worth it for peace of mind.


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Originally Posted by New_to_4K View Post
Who are you to judge my opinions and make decisions on behalf - my dislike or likes and where should I post? If you don't have anything nice to say about anyone and start another vs. thread as you did with others on the forum, keep your opinions to yourself.



BTW, I have burn-in on my LG OLED and also jrref mentioned LG has one the settings on High by default due to increased chances of burn-in in the C9 that he calibrated.
You have zero scientific evidence that LG burns in more than sony. Your "opinions" are completely irrelevant to the topic.

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post #480 of 532 Old 03-22-2019, 10:26 AM
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What’s the VRR range on the C9. Is it 40hz-120hz or did I just make that up?


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