2019 C9–E9 Owner's Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 109 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3241 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
I would need to know more about the Sony implementation to say definitively but if that’s the feature you want I wouldn’t buy the LG unless you are positive that your AVR model would work properly.

Someone on the A9G thread is reporting that eARC works for them with HDMI-CEC turned off.
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post #3242 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by JD23 View Post
Someone on the A9G thread is reporting that eARC works for them with HDMI-CEC turned off.
Well the Sony A9G is an HDMI 2.0b device, so that pretty much shoots in the foot the theory that CEC is required for EARC to work in an HDMI 2.0b EARC implementation.

It also sounds like Sony has better integration engineers than LG.
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post #3243 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 11:49 AM
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LG doesn't even update its WebOS for C8

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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
It’s an idiotic decision on LGs part and demonstrates that they have a poor understanding of how the feature is designed to work.

It also means that there is a real possibility that LG will have to keep updating the c9 firmware in perpetuity to continue supporting new devices as they come online. Or the more likely scenario that support for new devices just stops after a couple of years.

Hope they reconsider what they are doing and straighten this out.

Is Sony doing the same thing? Seems hard to believe.
Sony has updated its 2018 AG8 to the same Android version as the 2019 AG9, but LG has already stated that it will not update previous model WebOS to the subsequent model year. This is very concerning as it clearly puts a hard ceiling on what sort of legacy support we may expect from LG? Maybe it's a limitation of their SOC such that they can update image processing (motion, brightness, etc.) but won't update system connections (HDMI, GUI, etc.)?
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post #3244 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by JD23 View Post
Someone on the A9G thread is reporting that eARC works for them with HDMI-CEC turned off.
eARC works fine with CEC set to off on the A9F and I'd be surprised if it operated differently on the A9G.
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post #3245 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
That's my guess too.... the Dr HDMI 4K is doing a CEC handshake that the C9 likes and that is getting the C9 to send the eARC output.
The regular EDID is done on the DDC lines which is where it looks like the Dr HDMI 4K does its work. I've asked them if it only does EDID or if it alters the ARC (CEC) and eARC channels. They have "CEC Protocol Pass-Through" on the feature list which implies they don't mess with the CEC channel. We'll see what they say.
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post #3246 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 12:02 PM
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eARC is essential if...

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Originally Posted by SV1432 View Post
Sony implementation went well. Pretty easy set-up out of the box without much calibration. Hooked up the sound bar and TV with ethernet cables instead of Wi-Fi because they are fixed. The sound bar is a Sony HT Z9F so of course it paired perfectly with the TV. The only downside to the sound bar is that you cannot adjust bass/treble/etc. - you can only adjust the distance of the rear speakers, sub-woofer, etc. There are some additional settings, but for the most part, that's about it. I purchased both the A9G and the sound bar at the same time but I'm having doubts now if I want to go back to an AVR. Had one previously that went bad and since we were upgrading our living room anyways, replaced everything - furniture, added hardwood floor to match the rest of the house, and despite my plasma working just fine, decided to upgrade the TV/Audio while we're at it.


When I laid down the subfloor and hardwood flooring, I didn't want to drill a hole through the new floor to accommodate wires (as I wanted to go wireless) so I just buried the wires that I had run previously back into the crawl space. All of that babbling and non-sense aside, I am now having a bit of buyer's remorse. Love the picture, sound, etc. but for just over $5000 in total spend, feel like I could get more bang for my buck. There is no way my wife is letting me put speakers in the ceiling for Atmos so I'll have to settle for 'digitally enhanced" AVRs, sound bar, etc. to get the best 'Plan B' I can.

I'm wondering if I'm making this eARC thing to be out more than it is. I've even waffled on getting a QLED, but for the price, I can get an OLED. I'm not too worried about burn-in and the lack of Dolby Vision (albeit not a real issue yet today) is bothersome to me down the road. Long story short - I'm trying to justify getting an OLED for $600 less and if the trade-offs between the 2 sets is worth it. I'm not as anal as some when it comes to motion handling so not really sure if the Ultimate Processor is that much better than LG. I don't have both TVs side by side to compare in a real world scenario. Watching them at Best Buy I didn't see any difference (albeit a limited sample size and time).
If you want the benefit of VRR/ALL gaming features from gaming sources (PC, Xbox, PS4, etc.) today, then they must be connected directly to the TV, and then passed to your AVR via eARC for sound. In other words, many of the benefits of HDMI 2.1 is not usable without eARC because no AVR is HDMI 2.1 compliant. So it's likely in 2021, all AVR will be HDMI 2.1 compliant, which means at worse you'll have to wait 18 months to buy a HDMI 2.1 enabled AVR as a workaround to the broken eARC.

That out of the way, I still say you should get the C9 because image is good enough relative to the A9G, and HDMI 2.1 is great to have 4 years from now. My A9G is dedicated to critical movie watching in a dark room and I have the Sammy Q90R dedicated for gaming in a more brightly lit room. However, if I was to be limited to one TV dual duty? 77" C9 all the way (even with these eARC issues because we are the 1% first adopters, and that's always the risk).

Last edited by 8KCRT; 06-11-2019 at 12:06 PM. Reason: clarification
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post #3247 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 12:04 PM
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Got a reply from HDfury. They said they do not do anything with the ARC and eARC. Asked them a follow up to confirm the CEC data is passed through unaltered. I'm asking on their discord channel if you want to see.
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post #3248 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 12:12 PM
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Rushed out the door to be "HDMI 2.1"

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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
Well the Sony A9G is an HDMI 2.0b device, so that pretty much shoots in the foot the theory that CEC is required for EARC to work in an HDMI 2.0b EARC implementation.

It also sounds like Sony has better integration engineers than LG.
I believe you are right - imagine what QA short cuts had to be taken to be the FIRST AND ONLY digital device with HDMI 2.1? Being in engineering, you know the long and frustrating QA process - and it's pretty much the same for all companies give or take 30 days, and yet LG magically has a faster QA than anybody else by an entire development cycle (12 months?!). Hmmm.... it's beginning to make sense where short cuts were taken to do just enough for HDMI 2.1 compliance, "just enough".
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post #3249 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by lujan View Post
Myself along with "mhmercer" have successfully made eARC work with our Denon AVRs with the Dr HDMI 4K device. I have eARC turned "On" on the C9 and have tested both Netflix content and USB Atmos and DTS files and they play perfectly. I left "HDMI Control" Off on the Denon so it is obviously not required for eARC.
Forgot to ask. Do you have a PC, Xbox or PS4 handy to see if LPCM 5.1 or 7.1 will work passed through the LG no that you have the Dr HDMI hooked up?
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post #3250 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 12:20 PM
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Got a reply to my follow up. The Dr Fury 4K also doesn't touch the CEC data either. This means that something in the regular HDMI handshake and/or EDID (not the Audio EDID) is causing the LG to Denon issue.



So LG botched it and unnecessarily made eARC dependent on the HDMI handshake in their implementation.
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post #3251 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by avernar View Post
Forgot to ask. Do you have a PC, Xbox or PS4 handy to see if LPCM 5.1 or 7.1 will work passed through the LG no that you have the Dr HDMI hooked up?
I have an Xbox but not sure what title to try? If you have a specific title that I can test, maybe on YouTube on the Xbox, let me know.

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post #3252 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by 8KCRT View Post
I believe you are right - imagine what QA short cuts had to be taken to be the FIRST AND ONLY digital device with HDMI 2.1?
Exactly, so how many feel that when the gaming systems, Blu Ray Players, and receivers are HDMI 2.1 that LG's version of HDMI 2.1 will not have any shortfalls.
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post #3253 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avernar View Post
Got a reply to my follow up. The Dr Fury 4K also doesn't touch the CEC data either. This means that something in the regular HDMI handshake and/or EDID (not the Audio EDID) is causing the LG to Denon issue.



So LG botched it and unnecessarily made eARC dependent on the HDMI handshake in their implementation.
That's been my suspicion.

Now the question is if enough people shout at them if they will fix it. Unfortunately depending on how deep into the guts of the system they made this mistake fixing it might not be trivial.

Is Monoprice the only place to get the Fury device? Getting it from Monoprice is going to take forever.
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post #3254 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by lujan View Post
I have an Xbox but not sure what title to try? If you have a specific title that I can test, maybe on YouTube on the Xbox, let me know.
If you go to System > Settings > Display & sound > Audio output the first option is HDMI audio and has the choices:
  • Off
  • Stereo uncompressed
  • 5.1 uncompressed
  • 7.1 uncompressed
  • Bitstream out
Set it to either 5.1 or 7.1 uncompressed. Then try a few sources such as games (avoid ATMOS ones) and youtube and see what the AVR displays on the front when the xbox is going through the LG. Even if the youtube video doesn't do multi channel the AVR should still say it's getting an LPCM signal.
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post #3255 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
Is Monoprice the only place to get the Fury device? Getting it from Monoprice is going to take forever.
Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/HDFury-18Gbps.../dp/B07MCMTZWD
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post #3256 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 12:58 PM
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TruMotion De-Judder Artifacts caused by TruMotion

I've noticed some pretty nasty artifacts caused by the de-judder TruMotion option on my C9 (firmware 03.60.04).
It doesn't matter which level of de-judder I use, the artifacts only disappear when I disable it completely.

I've used the "Spears & Munsil 10 bit Gradient Test Patterns" video which seems to pretty much break LG's 2019 de-judder implementation. The pattern causes massive artifacts on the borders of the pattern areas.

I'm pretty sure I haven't had this problem on my B6. Has anyone else noticed this problem?
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post #3257 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 01:32 PM
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Waiting at home today for a phone call not my TV.

The tracking page should show that the Scheduled delivery: Tuesday 6/11/2019 is not true and that FedEx will hold the shipment and call for an appointment. No apology just said it their policy. I’d say why not call the day before but then they’d not have it at the local hub yet but still. Lame!
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post #3258 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 01:38 PM
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Still sourced from Monoprice and still slow boat shipping.
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post #3259 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
Still sourced from Monoprice and still slow boat shipping.
Yes, I got it from Amazon but it's still shipped by Monoprice so you won't get the Prime 2-day shipping. I ordered on 6/6/19 and got it on 6/10/19 so it still didn't take long.

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post #3260 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avernar View Post
If you go to System > Settings > Display & sound > Audio output the first option is HDMI audio and has the choices:
  • Off
  • Stereo uncompressed
  • 5.1 uncompressed
  • 7.1 uncompressed
  • Bitstream out
Set it to either 5.1 or 7.1 uncompressed. Then try a few sources such as games (avoid ATMOS ones) and youtube and see what the AVR displays on the front when the xbox is going through the LG. Even if the youtube video doesn't do multi channel the AVR should still say it's getting an LPCM signal.
Yes, the Xbox was already set at "7.1 uncompressed" and it played every source that I tried at that format. The front of the Denon reads "Multi In + DDS".
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post #3261 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
You are implying that HDMI 2.0b eARC is not "real" eARC but that's not what Denon and I imagine other vendors who have implemented the feature with the older hardware are saying.
Nope, that's not I have said.
But eARC over HDMI 2.0 implies the legacy baggage of the old ARC+CEC that is known to not work 100% every time and with every device.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
Denon has specifically told myself and others that the feature is designed to work without HDMI-CEC being enabled. If eARC uses the Ethernet channel to do the protocol control and deliver the data then there should be zero issue having compatibility between HDMI 2.1 and HDMI 2.0b chipsets because both include a full bandwidth Ethernet channel for this to happen on.
Yeah, but it doesn't work just like that, as you did see, no?
The old ARC just keeps messing things around.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
Also I disagree with your assertion that once HDMI 2.1 AVRs show up we don't need the feature, it is desirable to reduce the # of devices in the video chain, have different video presets or settings assigned to different TV inputs, etc. The feature is still useful in a world of HDMI 2.1 AVRs.... and the whole point of the feature for me and many others is to not have to replace the AVR with a 2.1 one if the AVR already does the one feature (eARC) it needs to do in order to feed it back our HD audio.
Nope, that's not I have said. We need eARC for all the stated reasons, but once HDMI 2.1 receivers arrive you will not be obligated to use the TV as the hub, you can use the AVR as the hub, as before, and the TV can still be used as an "extra" hub, if needed (or if a future TV does support more features than the AVR).


Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
Thanks this is good info. I suppose I might have to go this route myself. Probably the Dr HDMI is doing the handshake that is desired by the C9 but without a debug of what it's doing no way to know for certain.
Do not get excited about this, if you read carefully the posts you can see that @mhmercer did not understand the problem that the HDFury was supposed to resolve or that what it actually did work for him did not require eARC - for @mhmercer , in fact, it was a bad HDMI cable....

Things are a little bit more complicated and the forum is not an easy path to communicate all the minute details for everybody.
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Last edited by dfa973; 06-11-2019 at 02:23 PM.
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post #3262 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 02:11 PM
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Yes, the Xbox was already set at "7.1 uncompressed" and it played every source that I tried at that format. The front of the Denon reads "Multi In + DDS".
You get "Multi Ch In + DDS" with or without Dr. HDMI 4K 8 channels LPCM AudioEDID modification?
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post #3263 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post


Yeah, but it doesn't work just like that, as you did see, no?
The old ARC just keeps messing things around.


No, only with LG. Sony have implemented EARC on their TVs and does not have any of this baggage because apparently Sony understand how the feature is supposed to work, LG does not.

If the feature works as I've read in the technical descriptions of it then it should work even on an HDMI 2.0b pair of devices that choose to do it with no CEC exchange happening. The source (TV) device can communicate over the ethernet channel with the client (AVR) and determine if there is an EARC available and then utilize it and CEC is not in the picture.
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post #3264 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Nope, that's not I have said.
But eARC over HDMI 2.0 implies the legacy baggage of the old ARC+CEC that is known to not work 100% every time and with every device.




Yeah, but it doesn't work just like that, as you did see, no?
The old ARC just keeps messing things around.




Nope, that's not I have said. We need eARC for all the stated reasons, but once HDMI 2.1 receivers arrive you will not be obligated to use the TV as the hub, you can use the AVR as the hub, as before, and the TV can still be used as an "extra" hub, if needed (or if a future TV does support more features than the AVR).




Do not get excited about this, if you read carefully the posts you can see that @mhmercer did not understand the problem that the HDFury was supposed to resolve or that what it actually did work for him did not require eARC - for @mhmercer , in fact, it was a bad HDMI cable....

Things are a little bit more complicated and the forum is not an easy path to communicate all the minute details for everybody.
Perhaps you misunderstood what I said. I stated that I had a bad cable (Active), and replaced it (Passive). Perhaps I got dumb-lucky; perhaps I knew what I was doing. The result is the same: my system works perfectly with an AT&T U-Verse cable box, an LG C9, a Dr HDMI 4K, a Denon X3400H, and a Sony UBP-X700 Blu-Ray Player. According to the iPhone app AVR Remote, I output through my AVR, Atmos/TrueHD from Blu-Ray discs that carry it, Atmos from the C9 apps/programs that carry it, and Dolby D+ Dolby Surround from cable channels.
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post #3265 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lujan View Post
Yes, the Xbox was already set at "7.1 uncompressed" and it played every source that I tried at that format. The front of the Denon reads "Multi In + DDS".
That looks like it's getting the PCM signal. My X3500h shows something similar if I have it in Dolby Surround mode. If you cycle through the sound modes you should eventually get to "Multi Channel In 7.1" or similar. The green (Movie) or blue (Game) buttons on my remote will eventually get to it. If you see a tiny square with PCM in it then that's it for sure.


I've attached what mine shows with my PS4 attached to it. See the PCM on the right in the little square below the -28.5dB?
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post #3266 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
You get "Multi Ch In + DDS" with or without Dr. HDMI 4K 8 channels LPCM AudioEDID modification?
Both

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post #3267 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 03:20 PM
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Just got my 77" C9 and had some questions, still sitting in box. Checked no screen damage and it powers on like was suggested, but my concerns:


1) It shipped across the country via Air Freight after likely already shipping across the country in the other direction from Korea. Are these TVs even designed to handle temperatures/pressures of air freight? Or is that well controlled nowadays?
2) The delivery guy gently put the box on it side at one point. Then I read you're not supposed to do that because the screen can crack. Well the screen didn't crack, but yikes, anything to watch out for now?


Thanks in advance for addressing my paranoia.


Now comes the the terrifying part where I lay it flat in the packaging and put the stand on and lift it up with my wife's help. We did fine for the 65" C8, but this is heavier and bigger so still nerve wracking. Advanced techniques for paranoid wimps also appreciated.
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post #3268 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
But eARC over HDMI 2.0 implies the legacy baggage of the old ARC+CEC that is known to not work 100% every time and with every device.
But HDMI 2.1 capable TVs and AVRs will have the same legacy ARC+CEC baggage for backwards compatibility.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
The old ARC just keeps messing things around.
Which is why an option to turn off CEC completely (not just the command part) would solve that issue. Then you could use just eARC. But the LG wants ARC+CEC turned on to use eARC for some stupid reason.
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post #3269 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
Nothing wrong with your choice

I would sure hope by the end of 2020 We will see.......
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Originally Posted by magic_carpet View Post
End of 2020???

I hope September 2019 is a more accurate forecast...

Turing was released in September 2018.

I'm relatively confident that Xbox Scarlett will launch with HDMI 2.1 in late 2020. Microsoft was an early adopter of backported HDMI 2.1 features in XB1X and they have already namedropped 8K support for Scarlett. I expect Playstation 5 will also release with HDMI 2.1 around the same timeframe.

There are rumors around 3 potentially interesting PC GPU releases in 2020
- Nvidia Ampere (or whatever they decide on for Turing successor)
- AMD's high end Navi parts
- Intel's Discrete GPU

My guess would be the summer timeframe for them. However, I would temper your expectations about HDMI 2.1 support. It is important to remember that the vast majority of PC gamers are using DisplayPort, not HDMI. Most cards have 3 DP and only 1 HDMI. GPUs have not always been quick to adopt new HDMI features in the past, either. Notice how Nvidia still does not support VRR over HDMI, only DisplayPort. AMD has not bothered to add support for HDMI Forum VRR in their drivers yet either. HDMI is not really a priority for them because it is a tiny slice of their customer base that has their PC connected to a TV and owns a true HDMI 2.1 TV.

I'm not saying it's impossible they will put HDMI 2.1 on next year's video cards, but it would also not surprise me in the slightest if they didn't.

I'm relatively sure we will not see Nvidia's Turing successor for consumers this year. It is pretty much open knowledge that Nvidia is preparing to launch a small incremental update to Turing soon, and that would be pointless if brand new cards were coming a couple months later. There have also been leaks out of Korea saying that Nvidia is negotiating with Samsung to produce the next GPUs on its 7nm node in 2020.
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post #3270 of 15693 Old 06-11-2019, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
You get "Multi Ch In + DDS" with or without Dr. HDMI 4K 8 channels LPCM AudioEDID modification?
HDFury confirmed that the Dr HDMI 4K does not do Audio EDID modification. Regular HDMI EDID only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lujan View Post
Both
That is good news. Did you happen to notice the PCM icon on your display that I mentioned? I just want to be absolutely sure. What model Denon do you have BTW?
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