2019 C9–E9 Owner's Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 31 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #901 of 14686 Old 04-14-2019, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
So cable is bit depth starved correct? Is this much dithering normal in dark scenes? I guess this is where Sony’s processing helps.
FYI is is from a Spectrum cable feed so I assume it’s pretty crappy quality.





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I'm still on a Pioneer Plasma, but the banding on HBO Now is pretty horrific on my 50" Pioneer, so I'm thinking it's more to do with the streaming source.
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post #902 of 14686 Old 04-14-2019, 07:57 PM
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Watching GOT on my C9 was a real pleasure. In the past, especially on my B6, the frequent low lit scenes, illuminated only by candles, were a frequent source of false contouring on Directv.

Tonight, these same scenes were far cleaner with almost no false contouring/banding to be seen. Even my wife noticed when she said, “There’s no ‘mottling’ like there had been” (her term for contouring ).
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post #903 of 14686 Old 04-14-2019, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
So cable is bit depth starved correct? Is this much dithering normal in dark scenes? I guess this is where Sony’s processing helps.
FYI is is from a Spectrum cable feed so I assume it’s pretty crappy quality.





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Yikes. That looks just like on my B7 if I stream some HBO Go content. My iPad can resolve those color gradations without issue. Thx for posting.
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post #904 of 14686 Old 04-14-2019, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
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2019 C9–E9 Owner's Thread (No Price Talk)

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Originally Posted by aypues View Post
Yikes. That looks just like on my B7 if I stream some HBO Go content. My iPad can resolve those color gradations without issue. Thx for posting.


I tested HBO GO on Apple TV (pics below) which looks so much better. Spectrum is terrible.





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post #905 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
So cable is bit depth starved correct? Is this much dithering normal in dark scenes? I guess this is where Sony’s processing helps.
FYI is is from a Spectrum cable feed so I assume it’s pretty crappy quality.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That looks like my B6. Yes, Sony processing does help for scenes like this. My A9F is much better in this regards BUT, the quality of the content still matters on the Sony. There are certain content no matter the setting still shows contouring and color banding issue on the Sony. Maybe you can try changing smooth gradation in your C9 see if this is still an issue.
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post #906 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Lunatic_Gamer View Post
He was with costumer service. He told me he spoke to a LG engineer before answering my specific question. He also said he had internal documents about the “BFI issue” with the 2019 oleds. I should be getting an email he requested from the engineering department by Monday, detailing what’s going on and when we should expect said BFI FW update.
Thank you. I'll eagerly wait for your update after the email.
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post #907 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 05:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by New_to_4K View Post
That looks like my B6. Yes, Sony processing does help for scenes like this. My A9F is much better in this regards BUT, the quality of the content still matters on the Sony. There are certain content no matter the setting still shows contouring and color banding issue on the Sony. Maybe you can try changing smooth gradation in your C9 see if this is still an issue.
No amount of processing would help Spectrum cable, its just poor quality. I tried HBO GO on Apple TV (picks above) and it looked much, much cleaner. Ive been nothing but impressed with my C9. After demoing both TVs I would say the C9 is neck and neck with the A9F. Gaming wise the C9 comes out ahead due to HDMI 2.1 its just really responsive.
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post #908 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
No amount of processing would help Spectrum cable, its just poor quality. I tried HBO GO on Apple TV (picks above) and it looked much, much cleaner. Ive been nothing but impressed with my C9. After demoing both TVs I would say the C9 is neck and neck with the A9F. Gaming wise the C9 comes out ahead due to HDMI 2.1 its just really responsive.
Good. I'm looking forward to the E9.
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post #909 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by VindicatorDX View Post
I've been unsuccessful trying to get 4k 120hz over HDMI 2.0b on my PC's Geforce 1080ti. Been messing trying to figure it out for a while today. The choice for 120hz doesn't appear, which is understandable in 4:4:4, but it's also gone when in 4:2:0 mode. I've also tried making a custom resolution, and when I click test it just says no signal. Not sure what the deal is tbh.

This is really annoying, since I was considering to buy a C9 to use it as a PC monitor (burn-in mode OFF ) with my 1080ti for 120Hz gaming (until HDMI 2.1 VGA will be released).
Have you tried to disable HDR? The issue could be related to HDMI 2.0 bandwith.
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post #910 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 07:37 AM
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No GOT spoilers, please. lol

I'm glad to hear that there will be a BFI FW update. Disappointing that 120hz BFI isn't yet working properly.
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post #911 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 07:39 AM
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4k 120Hz 10-bit HDR 4:2:0 is not within official HDMI2.0b spec, so it could be not supported by 1080ti HDMI 2.0b port, even setting a custom resolution.
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post #912 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by stama View Post
4K @ 120fps with 4:2:0 YCbCr is perhaps not allowed in the standard for HDMI 2.0. Yes, it's listed as a possible resolution on Wikipedia, but in a table like this which appears to use data sourced from HDMI.org (article) the requirement seems to be for a 32.08 Gbps data rate even for 4:2:0 with 8 bit per color.

Later edit: the initial table provided by HDMI.org that can still be viewed here was indeed listing [email protected] 4:2:0 YCbCr 8 bit as needing a 17.82 Gbps data rate cable, but a month after the initial HDMI 2.1 press release they sent an update with a new features and supported data rates table that changed the requirement to 32.08 Gbps. Some have updated their articles like on TechHive, others like Anandtech did not.
No, the requirements did not change. 4:2:0 content can be sent two ways. The original way was to just use 4:2:2 pixel encoding and repeat the Cb and Cr values. That's why the chart lists it as 4:2:0/4:2:2. The second new way is to use YCbCr 4:2:0 pixel encoding (YDVB420) which is a more compact encoding. The small version of the chart omits these resolutions for some reason.

I suspect that the source device might not support this encoding or it's not enabled.

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post #913 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 08:14 AM
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post #914 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by New_to_4K View Post
That looks like my B6. Yes, Sony processing does help for scenes like this. My A9F is much better in this regards BUT, the quality of the content still matters on the Sony. There are certain content no matter the setting still shows contouring and color banding issue on the Sony. Maybe you can try changing smooth gradation in your C9 see if this is still an issue.
Agreed. Frontier Fios TV (which is complete garbage compared to what I am now getting through YTTV) still looked noticeably better on the A9F vs the B6. But upgrading to YTTV was a substantially bigger upgrade.

People who are still watching TV via cable are doing these displays a major disservice.
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post #915 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by magic_carpet View Post
4k 120Hz 10-bit HDR 4:2:0 is not within official HDMI2.0b spec, so it could be not supported by 1080ti HDMI 2.0b port, even setting a custom resolution.
It is out of spec, but the samsung Q900R still supports 8k 30 Hz 4:2:0 and 4k 120 Hz 4:2:0 using HDMI 2.0
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post #916 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by olqxqipz View Post
It is out of spec, but the samsung Q900R still supports 8k 30 Hz 4:2:0 and 4k 120 Hz 4:2:0 using HDMI 2.0

Samsung Q90R is capable of playing 4k 120hz through its HDMI 2.0b only on HDMI 4 port, so I think that port 4 is out-of-spec HDMI 2.0b.
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post #917 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by magic_carpet View Post
Samsung Q90R is capable of playing 4k 120hz through its HDMI 2.0b only on HDMI 4 port, so I think that port 4 is out-of-spec HDMI 2.0b.
and all the ports on the C9 are HDMI 2.1, so they clearly aren't the exact specification HDMI 2.0b
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post #918 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Micolash View Post
Agreed. Frontier Fios TV (which is complete garbage compared to what I am now getting through YTTV) still looked noticeably better on the A9F vs the B6. But upgrading to YTTV was a substantially bigger upgrade.

People who are still watching TV via cable are doing these displays a major disservice.
little off topic but is YTTV superior to directvnow from a quality standpoint? want to get my ducks in a row for when i get my c9 - currently only directvnow via apple tv 4k.
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post #919 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 11:54 AM
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This makes no sense as 4:2:0 uses half the bandwidth of 4:4:4, and HDMI 2.0 is fully capable of 4k 60Hz 4:4:4 8bit, therefore cutting the bandwidth needs in half by dropping to 4:2:0 would then let you double the refresh rate to 120Hz.

In fact 4k 60Hz 8bit 4:2:0 is how Nvidia's drivers for example would achive 4k 60Hz over HDMI on GPUs that only have HDMI 1.4 and not HDMI 2.0.

And regardless of what the HDMI 2.1 spec deems necessary bandwidth-wise, the only output devices on the market only support HDMI 2.0 at max anyway.
I agree, it's technically doable to send YCbCr 4:2:0 8 bit over a HDMI 2.0 connection. If a restriction exists, it's entirely artificial. But a standards body can impose something like that, simply by stating these are the rules, and all "compliant" devices must follow the rules in the standard to be "compliant".

And this can be imposed even technically: the requirement could be that YCbCr 4:2:0 data sent at 100/120 Hz, no matter the bits per color channel format, is always carried out in 12 bit 4:2:2 format (and that requires a 32.08 Gbps data rate). 12 bits can carry all the 8 and 10 bit values, and the Cr value can just be ignored. How to interpret the data is just a measure of signaling the format during the handshake. One justification could be to make the design easier, I guess.

That being said, I don't know if that's what's actually in the standard.

Last edited by stama; 04-15-2019 at 12:01 PM.
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post #920 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 11:58 AM
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Hi VindicatorDX. I have also done extensive tests and everything works fine IF you also have the option YCC 4.2.2 enabled on the xbox one x video settings. You can test by yourself what the issue is and report back: pick a game with HDR (Horizon 4 for example), make sure you have HDR and instant game response enabled on the TV (you should see both the HDR logo and a message "instant game response is switched on" on the TV when you launch the game) and then if you have all the xbox video option checked EXCEPT for YCC 4.2.2 you will see that the game stutters badly every second. This is all at 4k resolution of course. The conclusion seems to be that the xbox HDMI port is not ready for 4.4.4 HDR 10-bit 4K and fps>30 (I think fps>30 is expected with game mode on and VRR) since the required bandwidth is >18Gbps which is the limit for HDMI 2.0b. The solution is to leave 4.2.2 checked as well to keep the bandwidth within HDMI 2.0b specs. xbox one x has few features of hdmi 2.1, like vrr and allm, but does not have the required hardware to support a link with 2.1 datarates it seems.
By the way, the only way to be able to check the VRR option is to have the TV with instant game response switched on (if you don't, that option on the xbox is grayed out).

Please try this out and report back if you can. Please make sure you restart the game after you changed the video setting to make sure they are effective.
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Originally Posted by VindicatorDX View Post
New user here, just upgraded from 2016 OLED to the C9 and wanted to share my experience so far and clear up some misinformation I've seen online.

Starting with XBOX One X, I've read that HDR10 and the VRR of the C9 are not supported, and this is false. I understand why the people who posted this thought that because if you have ALLM enabled, the XBOX reports the TV as not supporting some features, likely to ever so slightly enhance the latency, but if you turn off ALLM and manually turn on game mode, literally every single one of the dozen or so features the XBOX looks for get's a check mark as being supported.

Regarding BFI, I've seen some complaints about darkness levels being imposed when using BFI. This will unfortunately never go away because that's how BFI works. On monitors that allow you to change the brightness of the inserted frames, darker equals more reduction in motion blur, which is the whole point. The brighter it is, the less potent the reduction in motion blur.

On my 2016 OLED I couldn't play anything fast paced without frustration due to the input lag. Those frustrations are completely gone now and I'm completely satisfied with the response time now, which is equally fantastic with or without HDR enabled! I'm also thoroughly satisfied in comparison to my 240hz monitor I've been using the past year. That the responsiveness of the OLED tech showing I expect.

If anyone has questions that remain unanswered, let me know and I'll do my best to answer them if I can. I don't have a device to test the response time in milliseconds however. I will say that the latency of the 2016 I have was rated at 27ms and I can't fathom that what I am currently experiencing is only an improvement to ~20ms so ~13ms is likely what it's successfully achieving, as claimed.

Hope this info helps some of you!
Hi VindicatorDX. Thanks for the useful info from the tests. Did you get a chance to test the xbox one x with the option YCC 4.2.2 disabled as I mentioned in my previous post to you? I would really want to make sure you see the same issue and I do not have any specific problem with my hardware. Thank you in advance sir!
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post #921 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 12:04 PM
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Speaking of bit depth...

Quote:
Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
So cable is bit depth starved correct?
Cable is bit rate starved, not bit depth. The bit depth depends more on the codec being used, and even then even the old MPEG-2 used on DVDs was typically 8bit per channel (I say typically because it can actually go up to at least 10bit).

One key point is that using a higher bit depth can actually improve compression efficiency since you can get away with using a lower bit rate without banding becoming as much of an issue (fun fact: many anime bootlegs on the internet use 10bit per channel encoding even from 8bit per channel video sources for this very reason).

And to clarify, bit rate is the only thing that determines how much bandwidth/how much data the stream actually requires. It doesn't matter if it's 480i HEVC 15fps or 8k MPEG-2 120fps - if they're both encoded at 10Mbps then they're both 10Mbps regardless of anything else (though admittedly 8k MPEG-2 120fps at 10Mbps would look terrible...).
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post #922 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by avernar View Post
No, the requirements did not change. 4:2:0 content can be sent two ways. The original way was to just use 4:2:2 pixel encoding and repeat the Cb and Cr values. That's why the chart lists it as 4:2:0/4:2:2. The second new way is to use YCbCr 4:2:0 pixel encoding (YDVB420) which is a more compact encoding. The small version of the chart omits these resolutions for some reason.

I suspect that the source device might not support this encoding or it's not enabled.
The original chart sent in November 2017 was defining the format for sending YCbCr 4:2:0 @ 100/120 Hz as using Y420VDB pixel encoding, like it's done for 50/60 Hz (there is an asterisk next to the format which points to the Y420VDB note in the legend). This chart is still visible in the Anandtech link I posted.

But a month later, HDMI.org sent a revised chart, where they removed the asterisk for YCbCr 4:2:0 @ 100/120 Hz, while keeping it for 48/60 Hz (and 10K @100/120Hz). I guess that might mean they decided to abandon the Y420VDB format when sending at 100 / 120 Hz. This new chart is the one on TechHive. You can see at the end of the article they say they changed the charts with the new ones sent by HDMI.org. You'll notice the chart is not simplified just for the sake of making it more compact, they still kept the individual rates for 4:2:0 at 48-60Hz and 10K/100-120Hz in the table, as well as for other formats.

Last edited by stama; 04-15-2019 at 12:20 PM.
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post #923 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by stama View Post
I agree, it's technically doable to send YCbCr 4:2:0 8 bit over a HDMI 2.0 connection. If a restriction exists, it's entirely artificial. But a standards body can impose something like that, simply by stating these are the rules, and all "compliant" devices must follow the rules in the standard to be "compliant".
I can find no such restrictions in the standard. It's just that the timings for 4K/120p and 8K have not been defined. They have no VIC code in that version of the standard. At the time they were considered custom modes.
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post #924 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 12:22 PM
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I can find no such restrictions in the standard. It's just that the timings for 4K/120p and 8K have not been defined. They have no VIC code in that version of the standard. At the time they were considered custom modes.
Well, so there's the explanation.

It's not explicitly forbidden, but it's not defined, which means devices don't have to support it, and there are no clear rules on how to support it.
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post #925 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by stama View Post
I guess that might mean they decided to abandon the Y420VDB format when sending at 100 / 120 Hz. This new chart is the one on TechHive. You can see at the end of the article they say they changed the charts with the new ones sent by HDMI.org. You'll notice the chart is not simplified just for the sake of making it more compact, they still kept the individual rates for 4:2:0 at 48-60Hz and 10K/100-120Hz in the table, as well as for other formats.
I think it might be a marketing thing instead of a technical reason. While I don't have the HDMI 2.1 standards doc, based on the previous ones I don't see why a source can't advertise it supports the resolutions they removed off the chart. The HDMI docs define what you can do and not what you can't do.
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post #926 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 12:31 PM
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I think it might be a marketing thing instead of a technical reason.
Could be. In the slide deck on Anandtech, they advertise HFR as a capability being made possible by the new 2.1 version. Restricting official 4K @ 120Hz support only for HDMI 2.1 would be a step in that direction.
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I watched the 4K blu ray of Schindler’s list on my c9 today, wow.. if a better disc exists to show off this new set, id like to see it. Absolutely a treat to watch. I watched it in DV cinema home at default settings and the blacks were perfect.


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post #928 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 01:02 PM
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Am I crazy or does the OLED Light Setting work differently on this TV? I swear at the same settings it seems darker than my C7 in SDR Picture modes.
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post #929 of 14686 Old 04-15-2019, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by pelleran View Post
Hi VindicatorDX. Thanks for the useful info from the tests. Did you get a chance to test the xbox one x with the option YCC 4.2.2 disabled as I mentioned in my previous post to you? I would really want to make sure you see the same issue and I do not have any specific problem with my hardware. Thank you in advance sir!
So I think the problem here is Xbox capabilities vs cable bandwidth. I tested Forza Horizon 4 just now and with 4K mode with 4:2:2 disabled. The game goes smooth if "Performance" is selected in Forza's options menu. If quality is selected, then it's ~30fps and stuttery. Xbox one X hardware can't handle 4k on a lot of games @ 60hz so this is the choice many games offer to get whichever you value more, performance or quality.

If the cable was the limiting factor, I don't believe 60hz would be a choice for 4k with HDR turned on in the options, but it always is. I do however think the XBOX could limit the bitrate to 8bit vs. 10 on it's own though because doing some research it did look like 4K 10bit HDR 60hz is out of the limit of HDMI 2.0b being at about 22gbit/sec. So that's the scenario where the Xbox would likely force 8bit color if the cable and TV wasn't up to par and 4:2:2 mode was unchecked.
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Originally Posted by VindicatorDX View Post
So I think the problem here is Xbox capabilities vs cable bandwidth. I tested Forza Horizon 4 just now and with 4K mode with 4:2:2 disabled. The game goes smooth if "Performance" is selected in Forza's options menu. If quality is selected, then it's ~30fps and stuttery. Xbox one X hardware can't handle 4k on a lot of games @ 60hz so this is the choice many games offer to get whichever you value more, performance or quality.

If the cable was the limiting factor, I don't believe 60hz would be a choice for 4k with HDR turned on in the options, but it always is. I do however think the XBOX could limit the bitrate to 8bit vs. 10 on it's own though because doing some research it did look like 4K 10bit HDR 60hz is out of the limit of HDMI 2.0b being at about 22gbit/sec. So that's the scenario where the Xbox would likely force 8bit color if the cable and TV wasn't up to par and 4:2:2 mode was unchecked.
Do you have the capability of testing eARC on the C9?
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