2019 C9–E9 Owner's Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 92 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2731 of 4430 Old 05-30-2019, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by EC1602 View Post
We've covered this in this very thread.
ALLM =! Game mode.
You need to select and view in Game (picture profile) mode to experience low latency mode the TV offers.
ALLM is nothing but tigger signal to let TV know you are playing games. This is for convenience.


Does allm turn the picture mode back after you are done with gaming? Also does your avr need to support allm?


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post #2732 of 4430 Old 05-30-2019, 11:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tomcup View Post
ALLM only puts the TV into Game mode picture mode automatically when sensing a game if it is supported, it does not improve the latency of the other picture modes. I did not watch the video, but if he did not empirically test it, I would not expect it to work that way.


Read this from Flatpanels review regarding gaming.

“Another new feature this year is the option to turn on game mode with any picture mode in the TV, which means that you can now select either 'Game' picture mode (which is not very picture accurate) or you can chose to flip on a game switch when the TV is running in other picture modes. This will produce the same low input lag. This is very useful, if you do not have access to calibration equipment, which we assume that 99.99% of our readers do not have, but still want accurate picture quality in gaming.”



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post #2733 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Good dynamic tone-mapping should restore the PQ EOTF, not brighten beyond that.
LG has basically implemented the HDR version of S-Curved gamma.
People may like it, but I think rational heads are prevailing and this is now understood to be inaccurate, and therefore, to be avoided.


LG uses separate tone-curves based on the unreliable static metadata.
For my C7, I use an HDFury Vertex to override the static metadata to get a consistent tone-mapping.


One reason that I bought a C9 over the C8 was to use Calman adjust tone-mapping to track the PQ EOTF to at least 600 nits regardless of the disk authoring.
Two identical scenes should be displayed at different average picture level based on the static metadata. There may be only 1 second of bright content or even no significant APL difference in the source material.
The titles could be simply produced using a higher nit master display.


Dynamic tone-mapping can display more detail in the bright-flashing scenes in Batman V Superman but they loose the visual impact of the flash.


Hopefully, the LG 10 series will include the ability adjust the tone-mapping in the user menu.


- Rich
I think you're missing the point of LG's approach with DTM.
You can already adjust custom tone mapping curve on 9 series with calibration.
DTM is the fast food out of the box utility which can be very useful (and it does a great job, IMO) for people viewing HDR10 without access to manual/pro calibration.

That being said, it's not one size fits all approach.
For 1,000 nit mastered movies, DTM has little to offer and may even provide a negative result.
For 4,000 nits and 10,000 nits mastered movies and games, picture may look too dim without DTM as a lot of screen will have high nit values which can't be displayed by the OLED, so the TV internally will start mapping down all the picture. DTM then helps stop that process and map tones dynamically to 800 nits (or thereabout) max.

EDIT1: Games are usually mastered in 4,000 nits or 10,000 nits and I don't necessarily need maximum fidelity on games, I always leave DTM on in game mode on my C9. It works so well with PS4 Pro and Xbox one X, they look spectacular. For me, DTM is a lot more useful and important than VRR.

EDIT2: If anything, I wish LG implements the DTM feature so that even if it's turned on:
- For sub-1,000 nits and 1,000 nits HDR10 input = DTM disengages automatically.
- For 4,000 nits and 10,000 nits HDR10 input = DTM kicks in automatically.

If it's off in the menu, it's off all the time.
More of a QOL improvement.
I calibrate my tv using calman home and i found that my tv luminance is around 730 nit.
Which kind of adjustement do you suggest for 1000, 4000, 10000 nit in calman.
And i guess after this you will have to disable dtm?
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post #2734 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Tomcup View Post
TLDR: TV sound out eARC set to Passthrough mode (vs auto) possibly breaks Atmos on certain sources (internal), but also might improve audio latency on others (xbox, pc). Buggy*





Ugh okay, so my 77C9 on firmware 3.60.02 to Denon 6500H had no problems playing/passing through and displaying as an option Atmos in the internal Netflix App, but after going into Sound, then, sound out, and setting Digital sound out to pass through instead of Auto, the Atmos display option on Netflix is gone and it only shows 5.1. F*ck. I can't get it to come back. I'm going to have to try some things to get it back. But the TV still passes through Atmos just fine from my USB demo files and PC and XBox.



Edit: uninstalling Netflix did not fix. Setting audio out to TV speakers brought the Atmos icon back in Netflix, but then when I switched back to eARC (auto mode) it's gone again.

Edit 2: turning off eARC on TV and using regular ARC brings the option back in Netflix and actually passes Atmos through. Makes no sense. have to test if this breaks it for other HDMI sources. Edit 3: it does (ie xbox and PC won't pass atmos over regular arc as expected) but I guess if you only care about internal apps I'd dry that.

Edit 4: (sorry) I spammed things off and on and earc back and forth that Dolby atmos remains up again on the netflix app even in passthrough mode for eARC, but now the audio delay is back on the xbox through atmos. Banging my head on the wall here.







HOWEVER setting eARC (digital sound out) to pass through got rid of the audio latency I experienced in atmos over eARC via Xbox and PC and still allowed atmos to pass through. humm maybe not permanently see prior edit 4. However, I can no longer have my reciever upmix to neural x when doing this; it plays based on the source. I tested back and forth and the audio latency was gone/not a problem in pass through, but the latency in auto is horrible. If I lose the ability to use Netflix built in with Atmos though, that's annoying and I might have to move my newer Amazon 4k stick that supports atmos down here.



Seems like it's a bug with the way the internal apps view your hardware. I've had a similar issue before on my 4k fire TV stick.



Hopefully that all made sense.
Earlier in the thread I touched on this and tried pretty much the same things you did. The only difference in our setup is that I don't connect an Xbox or PC so I never ran into the audio latency issue as the PS4 just does normal Dolby Audio. As such I left the settings to auto with eARC. With that said the only way to get it to work again was for me to factory reset the TV which may not be an option if you had your TV professionally calibrated. This is presumably a bug in the way those apps are designed as other apps (Dolby Atmos Internal App) will trigger Atmos just fine. Hopefully this can be properly addressed as you shouldn't have to disable was eARC just to make Atmos work and having to factory reset the TV isn't a great solution when it decides to break after doing an update. I've been fortunate and everything is still working after the last reset I did.

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post #2735 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by C.W.Cain View Post
Unfortunately, I did everything you mentioned except I just have what I think are regular HDMI cables. Again, I'm not getting any audio from the TV to the Denon. Now that I have the cable box connected to the TV, I'm not getting ANY audio to the Denon.

Is it my cables? I mean, I'd think my regular hdmi cables could at least push regular (not atmos) over ARC.

Am I wrong?

Thanks again for your very detailed write up!
Are you using HDMI cables with Ethernet? For eARC to work, you need HDMI cables that have Ethernet
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post #2736 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by C.W.Cain View Post
Is it my cables? I mean, I'd think my regular hdmi cables could at least push regular (not atmos) over ARC.
I was unsuccessful in using:
  • non-certified HDMI 2.0x cables
  • certified HDMI 2.0b cables


The only cables I could get to work with the C9 in our setup were (claimed) 8K cables.

This may have been due to the other gear I was connecting to the C9, so I am not asserting that this is a C9 requirement, but it was necessary in our setup.

YMMV
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post #2737 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
Now there is no question burn in happens more on OLED then Plasma. Ya know what though, these are the best technologies. I will take my chances
Really? It was my experience that it was the opposite. The plasma's were MUCH WORSE when it comes to burn-in. I had some burn-in happen on my panny plasma (the HUD from Destiny in the lower left). I haven't seen a thing on my B7 oled. I don't even see image persistence on it.

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post #2738 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by dhackney View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by C.W.Cain View Post
Is it my cables? I mean, I'd think my regular hdmi cables could at least push regular (not atmos) over ARC.
I was unsuccessful in using:
  • non-certified HDMI 2.0x cables
  • certified HDMI 2.0b cables


The only cables I could get to work with the C9 in our setup were (claimed) 8K cables.

This may have been due to the other gear I was connecting to the C9, so I am not asserting that this is a C9 requirement, but it was necessary in our setup.

YMMV
I'm thinking about running to best buy today to see if I can get a cable that works. Could I get by with just one from the TV back to my AVR?

Or should I go to Amazon?

Any particular model cables anyone has liked?

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post #2739 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruppgu View Post
Really? It was my experience that it was the opposite. The plasma's were MUCH WORSE when it comes to burn-in. I had some burn-in happen on my panny plasma (the HUD from Destiny in the lower left). I haven't seen a thing on my B7 oled. I don't even see image persistence on it.
I do not remember in the main threads anyone saying they had burn in on there plasma way back when, but that was how many years ago now, maybe I forgot, but I do not think so....lol
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post #2740 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by C.W.Cain View Post
I'm thinking about running to best buy today to see if I can get a cable that works. Could I get by with just one from the TV back to my AVR?

Or should I go to Amazon?

Any particular model cables anyone has liked?
The majority of my cables are from Monoprice and I haven't had any problems with them as long as they indicate high speed cables and have the certification label on them.

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post #2741 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
I do not remember in the main threads anyone saying they had burn in on there plasma way back when, but that was how many years ago now, maybe I forgot, but I do not think so....lol


Plasma burn in was a big topic back in the day , not sure what you mean ?


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post #2742 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by C.W.Cain View Post
Unfortunately, I did everything you mentioned except I just have what I think are regular HDMI cables. Again, I'm not getting any audio from the TV to the Denon. Now that I have the cable box connected to the TV, I'm not getting ANY audio to the Denon.

Is it my cables? I mean, I'd think my regular hdmi cables could at least push regular (not atmos) over ARC.

Am I wrong?

Thanks again for your very detailed write up!
The problem could be your cables but it could also be other things. Have you selected "TV Audio" on your Denon's remote controller? If not, do that. Your Denon defaults to TV Audio when in eARC mode. Did you have sound before adding the C9? Have you done a re-set on your Denon?

EDIT: Another thought. How about running the PS4 and the cable box through the Denon with HDMI-in, then connect to the TV with HDMI-out, as any non-eARC system would do? If you still do not have sound, you'll need to re-set the AVR. If you do, you may need to re-set the C9.

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post #2743 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
Read this from Flatpanels review regarding gaming.

“Another new feature this year is the option to turn on game mode with any picture mode in the TV, which means that you can now select either 'Game' picture mode (which is not very picture accurate) or you can chose to flip on a game switch when the TV is running in other picture modes. This will produce the same low input lag. This is very useful, if you do not have access to calibration equipment, which we assume that 99.99% of our readers do not have, but still want accurate picture quality in gaming.”
Yeah, is this not the case? I think LG mentioned it as a feature back when they announced the 2019 TVs too. Seemed like a very positive feature to me.
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post #2744 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by C.W.Cain View Post
Could I get by with just one from the TV back to my AVR?

I was also troubleshooting a 4K BD player as part of the setup, so I required two 8K cables:
1) BD 4K player ---> LG C9
2) LG C9 HDMI 2 eARC/ARC ---> AVR eARC/ARC



I used Amazon.

The last time I was in a BB Magnolia I didn't see any 8K HDMI cables, although I did see various grades of HDMI 2.0 cables for eye-watering prices.



Note:
  • I have no connection to these manufacturers
  • These are not affiliate links
  • I stopped testing 8K cables as soon as I found some that worked

These three worked for me with the LG C9:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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post #2745 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
I do not remember in the main threads anyone saying they had burn in on there plasma way back when, but that was how many years ago now, maybe I forgot, but I do not think so....lol
There were many many burn in threads on plasma. My recollection anyway.
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post #2746 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 08:06 AM
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Plasma burn in was a big topic back in the day , not sure what you mean ?
It was a huge topic, but more of a myth compared to how many times it happened. We never heard from one client about burn in on a plasma ever, I can not say that about OLED. With this said, I can count the times on my two hands about burn in on OLED.
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post #2747 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 08:08 AM
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2019 C9–E9 Owner's Thread (No Price Talk)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
It was a huge topic, but more of a myth compared to how many times it happened. We never heard from one client about burn in on a plasma ever, I can not say that about OLED. With this said, I can count the times on my two hands about burn in on OLED.


Okay I certainly don’t disregard your evidence but I don’t consider a huge deal with either technology

Burn in definitely happened on plasma given the right circumstances .


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post #2748 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 08:16 AM
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My Panasonic plasma would get temporary image retention easily even when new, and also has burn in after years of use. I have not seen a hint of IR on either of my OLEDs.
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post #2749 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 08:16 AM
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My 2011 Plasma got burn-in after some years. Not scared away from OLED though. Only slightly worried
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post #2750 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
It was a huge topic, but more of a myth compared to how many times it happened. We never heard from one client about burn in on a plasma ever, I can not say that about OLED. With this said, I can count the times on my two hands about burn in on OLED.
My Panasonic ST60 has and had distracting image retention that takes days to get rid of. Never went overboard to get full on burn in but I am sure I could have very easily. The 7 series LG OLED I had and my current 8 series have ZERO image retention much less anything that would lead to burn in.
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post #2751 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 08:42 AM
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My old V10 Panasonic Plasma was prone to image retention, but I was always able to eliminate it by either running the screen wipe or running slides on a continuous loop for several hours. I'm actually surprised that screen wipe features aren't really used with OLED.

My VT60, however, did develop very subtle burn-in that couldn't be removed no matter how hard I tried. Fortunately, it wasn't really noticeable in content, but only on certain colored slides. The last generation of Panasonic plasmas (ST/VT/ZT60) had many documented cases.

The Kuro I used to have? Never thought about it. All IR would melt away very quickly. Although there were a few documented cases of it happening that concerned me, I never had any problems.

One of the factors many people forget is that it's not just what you watch, but also how hard you drive the panel. Those who prefer higher brightness settings are going to be taking far bigger risks than someone like myself, who watches in a pitch black room using very conservative dark room settings.

I realize that many people say that if you're careful, you should be fine. But I've seen enough documented cases where I feel that a Geek Squad warranty that covers burn-in is still a worthwhile investment. That way, you can enjoy all your content without worry. Their warranty might be expensive, but it's almost like an extended exchange policy in some ways. If you develop a valid problem down the road, they'll take care of you - as they most certainly should given the price of the coverage.

The fact that Samsung tries to market their TVs as having no burn-in is kind of funny to me, as if it's some kind of technologically advancement that they've made in recent years.

However, I'm still kind of baffled that manufacturers of OLED and plasma before it are able to wash their hands of burn-in when it comes to their warranties. At least in the US. I'm hoping that, at some point, they'll develop enough confidence in their product to actually provide coverage for consumers. I feel that, as prices drop and smaller models are released and become more attainable to mainstream consumers, they're going to have no choice but offer up a guarantee for people on the fence.
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post #2752 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Cordy View Post
Earlier in the thread I touched on this and tried pretty much the same things you did. The only difference in our setup is that I don't connect an Xbox or PC so I never ran into the audio latency issue as the PS4 just does normal Dolby Audio. As such I left the settings to auto with eARC. With that said the only way to get it to work again was for me to factory reset the TV which may not be an option if you had your TV professionally calibrated. This is presumably a bug in the way those apps are designed as other apps (Dolby Atmos Internal App) will trigger Atmos just fine. Hopefully this can be properly addressed as you shouldn't have to disable was eARC just to make Atmos work and having to factory reset the TV isn't a great solution when it decides to break after doing an update. I've been fortunate and everything is still working after the last reset I did.

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Yes, I remembered your post, your fix was a last resort option if I could not get it back.
Powering things up and down 10 different ways and turning eARC on and off 10 different ways brought it back.
But the xbox audio delay in atmos came back with it and does not go away even in passthrough mode now.

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post #2753 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 09:14 AM
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Plasma burn in was a big topic back in the day , not sure what you mean ?
I bought a 2010 Panasonic plasma, and I distinctly remember that people in the owners thread on this forum were saying that burn-in was a real thing in the past, but that it was virtually impossible on the current sets going forward.

It's not all that different with OLEDs today, where people will say that burn-in was a problem on 2017 and older models, but that it is a non-issue on current models unless you are abusing the set in some way.

In my mind, the only honest answer you can give someone about burn-in on 2018 or 2019 OLEDs is that it seems to be improving over previous models, but we have no way of knowing how they will fare long-term. There is just no long-term use data available to the public; RTINGS accelerated aging tests only cover 2016 & 2017 models, and any anecdotal evidence from 2018 owners covers about a year of use at best. My plasma was actually fine for the first 2 years, and then IR got much worse after that. Anyone making a claim about the long-term risks of burn-in is just guessing.

I would much rather be honest with prospective buyers that the risk is uncertain rather than giving them false assurances that aren't based on evidence. Mature people can make a decision about whether the advantages of OLED are worth it. People still buy Teslas knowing the long-term reliability is questionable.
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post #2754 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by convexmacrolabs View Post
I bought a 2010 Panasonic plasma, and I distinctly remember that people in the owners thread on this forum were saying that burn-in was a real thing in the past, but that it was virtually impossible on the current sets going forward.

It's not all that different with OLEDs today, where people will say that burn-in was a problem on 2017 and older models, but that it is a non-issue on current models unless you are abusing the set in some way.

In my mind, the only honest answer you can give someone about burn-in on 2018 or 2019 OLEDs is that it seems to be improving over previous models, but we have no way of knowing how they will fare long-term. There is just no long-term use data available to the public; RTINGS accelerated aging tests only cover 2016 & 2017 models, and any anecdotal evidence from 2018 owners covers about a year of use at best. My plasma was actually fine for the first 2 years, and then IR got much worse after that. Anyone making a claim about the long-term risks of burn-in is just guessing.

I would much rather be honest with prospective buyers that the risk is uncertain rather than giving them false assurances that aren't based on evidence. Mature people can make a decision about whether the advantages of OLED are worth it. People still buy Teslas knowing the long-term reliability is questionable.


Agreed good post


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post #2755 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by convexmacrolabs View Post
I bought a 2010 Panasonic plasma, and I distinctly remember that people in the owners thread on this forum were saying that burn-in was a real thing in the past, but that it was virtually impossible on the current sets going forward.

I remember the same and have personal experience with 2011 (GT30) and 2012 (GT50) Panasonic plasmas demonstrating that was clearly not the case. I did decide to finally take the plunge and buy an OLED, but that is partially because I have a very good LCD and plasmas for watching the type of content that is most likely to lead to burn-in on the OLED>
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post #2756 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
I do not remember in the main threads anyone saying they had burn in on there plasma way back when, but that was how many years ago now, maybe I forgot, but I do not think so....lol
I have over 30,000 hours on my calibrated Kuro Elite and there’s not a hint of burn-in and I even leave it in dot to dot mode....no pixel shifting! Family members with latest Samsung and Older Panasonic Plasma also have no burn in. Due to the higher light output, along with newness of these Oled panels, I do not have the same level of confidence with them as I do with Plasma. Time will tell.Fingers crossed.

If you're talkin, you ain't learnin.

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post #2757 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mhmercer View Post
First, you will need to use High Speed HDMI cables; one cable for each device.
For eARC, the HDMI cable between the TV and the AVR needs to have an Ethernet channel. I'd go with a Premium High Speed cable (18Gbps) with Ethernet.

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Originally Posted by C.W.Cain View Post
Unfortunately, I did everything you mentioned except I just have what I think are regular HDMI cables. Again, I'm not getting any audio from the TV to the Denon.
eARC uses the same twisted pair as the Ethernet channel does. On a HDMI cable without Ethernet that pair is not twisted and the audio packets might be getting too many errors to make it across. If you don't have a settings issue this may be your culprit.
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post #2758 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 11:59 AM
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It's here! Larger than my four year old.
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post #2759 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 12:08 PM
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After making the decision, purchasing, and using the 77C9 for a week I am returning it. Not because of performance issues, but it's just too small for my living room. We just moved into our new house and I guess I did't really understand just how big the room is. So I am sadly parting with the C9 which otherwise is an excellent TV for the Samsung 82Q90R (my other choice during my original face-off). Guess I had a 50/50 chance of getting it right and lost. So to all those with the C9 enjoy it as it is a fantastic TV. I'm off to LED-LCD land again....

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post #2760 of 4430 Old 05-31-2019, 12:28 PM
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Oled doesn’t burn in in the traditional sense. It ages colors unevenly. This becomes less and less of an issue with the more pixels age as the differences become a smaller and smaller % of variance.

That said, no matter how advanced the pixel shifter and such may be, if you are one of those people who just keeps your tv tuned to like espn or Fox News 24/7, then yes, eventually the logo is gonna burn in no matter what you do. If you watch a variety of content it’s really not a problem worth worrying about.

I’ve been using my oled as both my primary viewing display (tv and movies) as well as computer monitor for 2 years, and I still don’t have any logos burnt in.

Also, technically while difficult, it is possible to reverse oled burn in using inverted images to age the rest of the pixels. Plasma burn in was actually permanent (and far more frequent), my Samsung plasma years ago had windows logos and tv logos burned in within 6 months in the same use case.

As long as you are cognizant of it with an oled you shouldn’t have to worry. If you wanna reduce the impact early on, just run color slides for a couple thousand hours in the beginning while you aren’t watching tv. A sub pixel having an extra hour of age on a tv with 10h of use is far more noticeable than that same hour of age on a panel with 1000 or 10000h of usage.

This is just the nature of oled panels.
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