3D capability in flatpanels is on its way back - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 18 Old 04-15-2019, 05:26 AM - Thread Starter
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3D capability in flatpanels is on its way back

I want to remind 3D fans that BOE, one of the largest flatpanles OEMs (Original Equipment Manufacturer), plans to built StreamTV glasses free 3D technology into all its 8K panels. LG also seems to do similar on a modest scale. Scott Wilkinson posted a article about it last year on a AVS 3D Forum.
https://www.avsforum.com/stream-tv-g...e-3d-ces-2018/



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post #2 of 18 Old 04-15-2019, 05:32 AM
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I can only imagine the price.

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post #3 of 18 Old 04-15-2019, 07:27 AM
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I had no idea the Bank of England made TVs. I thought they just blabbered on about how Brexit would kill everyone.

I never understood why 3D ever went away. It didn't add much to the cost of the TV and no one was forced to use it.
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post #4 of 18 Old 04-15-2019, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
I had no idea the Bank of England made TVs. I thought they just blabbered on about how Brexit would kill everyone.

I never understood why 3D ever went away. It didn't add much to the cost of the TV and no one was forced to use it.
It went away because it did add a cost to the tv, regardless of what that cost was, and MOST people didn't use it since you had to buy a 3d blu ray player to take advantage of the 3d. It wasn't just the additional cost of the tv it was the cost of the player, PS3 mitigated that as it could play 3d blu rays, but there is also the fact that with many major retailers if they did carry them, there was an additional price premium over even the regular blu ray cost. IT was never a concern for me, I never wanted one, but there were extra steps in order to use the 3d that many didn't want to be bothered with. Glasses Free 3d however if they can expand the sweet spot could make a big comeback.
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post #5 of 18 Old 04-15-2019, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by liffie420 View Post
It went away because it did add a cost to the tv, regardless of what that cost was, and MOST people didn't use it since you had to buy a 3d blu ray player to take advantage of the 3d. It wasn't just the additional cost of the tv it was the cost of the player, PS3 mitigated that as it could play 3d blu rays, but there is also the fact that with many major retailers if they did carry them, there was an additional price premium over even the regular blu ray cost. IT was never a concern for me, I never wanted one, but there were extra steps in order to use the 3d that many didn't want to be bothered with. Glasses Free 3d however if they can expand the sweet spot could make a big comeback.
OK, but the only issue is the cost of the TV. People could buy a 3D capable TV and not be forced to buy a player or discs. It's similar to having cruise control in a car. Most people never use it, but it's included in all cars.

And I remember reading a few years back that adding 3D capability only added about $20 to the manufacturing cost of a TV. Including a pair of glasses may have added another $20. Now it's probably less than that.
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post #6 of 18 Old 04-15-2019, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
OK, but the only issue is the cost of the TV. People could buy a 3D capable TV and not be forced to buy a player or discs. It's similar to having cruise control in a car. Most people never use it, but it's included in all cars.

And I remember reading a few years back that adding 3D capability only added about $20 to the manufacturing cost of a TV. Including a pair of glasses may have added another $20. Now it's probably less than that.
Oh I agree, but if consumers aren't using it, which most were not, why bother with the added expense, when you can remove it an get $20 extra profit? I mean it's not like the tv's suddenly became $20 cheaper when they were not 3d anymore. I mean the cost is negligible compared to the cost of an entire tv, but its a waste of money from the manufacturers POV when really almost no one uses it. But 3d then is kind of like smart TV's now, its almost impossible to buy a "dumb" tv, or a non 4k tv for that matter at least when you look at the most popular screen sizes being sold. I don't have any problem if they bring 3d back I still wont use it, but its a relatively small minority who even want it. This being AVS there are more here who would like it of course. Now if they can do good glasses free 3d, that has a big sweet spot I would probably be interested.
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post #7 of 18 Old 04-16-2019, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
I had no idea the Bank of England made TVs. I thought they just blabbered on about how Brexit would kill everyone.

I never understood why 3D ever went away. It didn't add much to the cost of the TV and no one was forced to use it.
It was counter productive in the brightness wars. The fact it added a slight cost and wasn't used by most people meant that in the interest of the battle for highest brightness, anything that got in the way had to go. So all unneeded filters that reduced brightness were eliminated.
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post #8 of 18 Old 04-16-2019, 11:32 AM
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All hypotheticals at this point, but if polarized passive 3D was introduced with the dawn of 4K WOLED, I suspect it wouldn't be on life support today.
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post #9 of 18 Old 04-17-2019, 07:30 AM
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I can only imagine the price.
BOE is making the 8K panels in the USA to reduce shipping costs. They will be making 8K; computer monitor, tablet, phone and TV.

UHD standards include 3D where 3D IPTV and file media will use a depthmap that results in 1) 25% smaller file and 2) better resolution.

UHD supports a depthmap for IPTV streaming and 8K is delivered over HDMI @ 120FPS with two frames for 4K or less 3D able to fit side by side in a 8K frame. Supporting a depthmap is necessary for UHD Blu-ray 3D but while a depthmap reduces the bandwidth/size for both IPTV and UHD Blu-ray, it requires more processing power thus first generation UHD Blu-ray players did not support it.

A 4K TV is wasted in the average living room as the discernable difference is negligible between 1080P with HDR and 4K with HDR @ 10 feet but you can't support HDR unless you have a UHD 4K TV or better. 8K is doubly a waste beyond a ATSC 3.0 tuner and Quantum dot in high end 8K for improved color and brightness which improves HDR. 3D will be the selling point for 8K, likely every PS4 and definitely every PS5 can support VR and 3D games and media. The current VR interface box used with the PS4s will likely not be needed with a PS5 and PSVR2. LIKELY in your living room you can simultaneously watch a VR players game in 3D on a 8K TV without an interface box and all automatic.

Will all 8K (Future TVs) support UHD 3D? In this site. https://www.avsforum.com/stream-tv-g...e-3d-ces-2018/

For gaming, this Ultra D 3D glassless multi-frame sampling process would create an unacceptably noticeable lag of about 30 milliseconds, according to the Ultra-D representatives. But developers can get past that issue using an SDK that makes it easy to pass in-game depth data in a form the TV can immediately interpret, with no lag. Nvyve Studios Director Adam Simonar, who was on hand to show off "utopian survival horror" game Pamela with Ultra-D integration, said the SDK took just a few hours to fully integrate with the Unity graphics pipeline and a week to fine tune. ** The Unity game engine has been chosen to be a Browser standard and all UHD TVs require a browser to display ATSC 3.0. **

Aside from programming time, developers might also be worried that adding stereoscopic support will come with a significant performance hit. In the past, stereoscopic games often had to lower resolutions or remove graphical details in order to render a distinct view for each eye or to avoid hitting bandwidth caps on the GPU or even the HDMI cable itself. But Sobotta says the Ultra-D SDK doesn't require any noticeable performance compromises—just send a bit of depth data along with the full-resolution 2D image, and the display handles the rest instantly.

StreamTV Networks says it's partnering with major TV brands to bring its technology to market this year, though the first sets will probably come from the Chinese manufacturers that bid the most for the still-limited production capacity ("China loves 3D," Lehman said). The total manufacturing cost for the process is only about 10 percent higher than that for a normal 4K display the same size, according to Lehman, which should limit the retail premium for the technology.

We do not know what Sony is supporting but I suspect some form of 3D is coming with Sony 8K TVs along with a SDK/API to either create a side by side 3D frame from the depthmap or send depthmap data from the game to the TV and have the TV create the second frame.

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post #10 of 18 Old 04-17-2019, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jeff_rigby View Post
''according to the Ultra-D representatives''
''with Ultra-D integration,''
''says the Ultra-D SDK''
According a article that i posted ''StreamTV has dropped the UltraD brand (too much confusion with the UltraHD Alliance and 4K) and will now focus on the SeeCubic brand name of their technology''. As you can see in the photo's they replaced the ''UltraDDDD '' logo with the ''SeeCube'' logo to promote their product.
https://www.seecubic.com/

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post #11 of 18 Old 04-17-2019, 10:27 AM
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All this sounds awesome. In fact to good to be true. I'm going to need some more convincing.

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post #12 of 18 Old 04-18-2019, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by lsorensen View Post
It was counter productive in the brightness wars. The fact it added a slight cost and wasn't used by most people meant that in the interest of the battle for highest brightness, anything that got in the way had to go. So all unneeded filters that reduced brightness were eliminated.
I had to make a decision in 2017, about the new OLED or choose the 3D 2016 65C, in the first half of 2017.
The brightness war was on in 2017,I think LG gained about a 100 nits when it dropped 3D film.
I choose the 2016 LG 65C OLED, with it's 3D, 100 nit hit, on brightness. My pannel was made on Feb,2017. The problem with home 3D is full field view with a TV big enough to capture the whole field of vision. Don't get me wrong,my 65C, does a fantastic job with 3D.
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post #13 of 18 Old 04-20-2019, 01:19 PM
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post #14 of 18 Old 04-22-2019, 04:47 PM
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Can movies that used the gimmick to its fullest, ie Friday Pt3, still get the same pop out effect from glasses-free 3d?

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post #15 of 18 Old 04-24-2019, 06:49 AM
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No, at least not in the demonstrations I've seen. Admittedly, this was a couple of years ago.
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post #16 of 18 Old 04-24-2019, 07:06 AM
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post #17 of 18 Old 05-25-2019, 06:13 PM
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Did a lot of 3D work the last 8 years (film titles and vfx). From what I've seen ...

A couple of glasses-less 3D TVs I've seen were impressive re the visual quality. The only real drawback was that you had to hold your head very still to not disrupt the 3D effect (think of it as lenticular tech on steroids). This becomes a potential ergonomics issue when watching a 90 min movie. Admittedly I haven't kept up with that tech over the last 6 months so things may have improved.

The more significant limitation/hurdle is the current UHD "3D spec". All of the "depth-map (or Z-map) over a single 2D image" 3D visualization techs are woefully compromised and limited.
The primary issue is occlusion ...
- in 3D something in the foreground in one eye can reveal something in the background that can't be seen in the other eye
- on a rounded object (like a globe) you'll see things in one eye that can't be seen from the other eye's angle and visa versa
A single 2D source image just can't contain the occluded areas that would be revealed from a second eye's (or lens') pov.
All the tests or presentations I've seen using this 3D visualization tech have been heavily massaged with very selective content that distracts from or doesn't enhance the obvious problems. Often they create customized content. If you were to view an entire movie with this 3D visualization tech you'd stop watching very quickly. It starts to looks very stretchy/smeary/soupy very quickly.

Currently the only way to get full quality 3D that works with all content is with two complete image streams, one for the left eye and one for the right eye.

On the speculation side ... the rumor mill in my industry is that there might be another push for 3D consumer TVs, etc. with the next Avatar movies. And that maybe the next round of consumer 8K TV/BluRay/HDMI specs will include a full fledged 3D format along with new standards for higher frame rates, etc. But who knows ...

The one existing tech that could change all of this is light-field camera systems. However practical/realistic implementation of this tech in filmmaking and production is still a long ways off. (The data from the camera is huge, the equivalent of shooting/editing/displaying 256k image files, and that's just at 24fps ...)
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post #18 of 18 Old 05-26-2019, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by sdg4vfx View Post
Did a lot of 3D work the last 8 years (film titles and vfx). From what I've seen ...

A couple of glasses-less 3D TVs I've seen were impressive re the visual quality. The only real drawback was that you had to hold your head very still to not disrupt the 3D effect (think of it as lenticular tech on steroids). This becomes a potential ergonomics issue when watching a 90 min movie. Admittedly I haven't kept up with that tech over the last 6 months so things may have improved.

The more significant limitation/hurdle is the current UHD "3D spec". All of the "depth-map (or Z-map) over a single 2D image" 3D visualization techs are woefully compromised and limited.
The primary issue is occlusion ...
- in 3D something in the foreground in one eye can reveal something in the background that can't be seen in the other eye
- on a rounded object (like a globe) you'll see things in one eye that can't be seen from the other eye's angle and visa versa
A single 2D source image just can't contain the occluded areas that would be revealed from a second eye's (or lens') pov.
All the tests or presentations I've seen using this 3D visualization tech have been heavily massaged with very selective content that distracts from or doesn't enhance the obvious problems. Often they create customized content. If you were to view an entire movie with this 3D visualization tech you'd stop watching very quickly. It starts to looks very stretchy/smeary/soupy very quickly.

Currently the only way to get full quality 3D that works with all content is with two complete image streams, one for the left eye and one for the right eye.

On the speculation side ... the rumor mill in my industry is that there might be another push for 3D consumer TVs, etc. with the next Avatar movies. And that maybe the next round of consumer 8K TV/BluRay/HDMI specs will include a full fledged 3D format along with new standards for higher frame rates, etc. But who knows ...

The one existing tech that could change all of this is light-field camera systems. However practical/realistic implementation of this tech in filmmaking and production is still a long ways off. (The data from the camera is huge, the equivalent of shooting/editing/displaying 256k image files, and that's just at 24fps ...)
Thanks for the update. Any info is good info.

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