2019 Sony A9G Master Series OLED Owner's Thread - Page 65 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1921 of 2281 Old 08-27-2019, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by alettiere View Post
Just to clarify: That’s four hours of use, but not continuous use, correct?

95% of the time. I turn it on, watch a movie or a couple of episodes of a show, and then turn it off. So the TV maybe is on for 2hrs at a time. Rarely is it on for 4 hrs.


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That’s correct. It does not have to be 4 continuous hours.

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post #1922 of 2281 Old 08-27-2019, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by alettiere View Post
I remember several years ago, when plasmas were on their last leg, the Samsung f8500 won the public vote, while the Panasonic VT/ZT won the critics choice in the VE shootout.

I attributed this to the public being drawn more towards the “brighter” whites of the Samsung, despite having lighter blacks than the Panny, which produced deeper blacks and better color saturation overall.

Different people are drawn to different things. And while I have no doubt the Panasonic OLED bests the Sony overall, I always steer my choices more towards what pro calibrators prefer vs the general public.

But that’s just me.


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You hit it on the head.

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post #1923 of 2281 Old 08-27-2019, 05:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by alettiere View Post
I remember several years ago, when plasmas were on their last leg, the Samsung f8500 won the public vote, while the Panasonic VT/ZT won the critics choice in the VE shootout.

I attributed this to the public being drawn more towards the “brighter” whites of the Samsung, despite having lighter blacks than the Panny, which produced deeper blacks and better color saturation overall.

Different people are drawn to different things. And while I have no doubt the Panasonic OLED bests the Sony overall, I always steer my choices more towards what pro calibrators prefer vs the general public.

But that’s just me.


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Exactly.

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post #1924 of 2281 Old 08-27-2019, 06:23 AM
 
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You should only have colourists from hollywood grading suites, post production people, isf guys and independent calibrators with isf level certification to do the evaluation. You shouldn't even include someone similar to a 'best buy geek squad' calibrator.
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post #1925 of 2281 Old 08-27-2019, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by olivierqc View Post
The company is Quebecacoustique and they will do the calibration in a few weeks
They any good on calibrations?

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Originally Posted by alettiere View Post
Different people are drawn to different things. And while I have no doubt the Panasonic OLED bests the Sony overall, I always steer my choices more towards what pro calibrators prefer vs the general public.
Well the Panasonic is not available in the US so it really does not matter in the USA.....
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post #1926 of 2281 Old 08-27-2019, 07:41 AM
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So if i wanted to increase brightness without destroying blacks to much for day time.
Would you primarily adjust gamma or contrast enhancer?

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post #1927 of 2281 Old 08-27-2019, 08:05 AM
 
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So if i wanted to increase brightness without destroying blacks to much for day time.
Would you primarily adjust gamma or contrast enhancer?
You need to change the oled light setting aka brightness setting that has a slider upto 50 to change the panel light output level,. for a dark room a lower light setting can work in a bright room you need higher light output level. The brightness setting works in tandem with the peak luminance setting to define panel light output. Therefore you need to raise brightness and/or peak luminance, check where have you kept these settings right now?
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post #1928 of 2281 Old 08-27-2019, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Gerry1975 View Post
Guys, I was watching Vincent's new video on YouTube explaining the scores of his TV evaluation event. And the AG9 got scored 4th with tone mapping. And I was puzzled, I don't like Sony's Dolby vision implementation that uses Dolby's customised tone mapping, but with hdr 10 Sony's tone mapping is very good, their dynamic tone mapping that always works with hdr10 is definitely better than lg's DTM imo. And still the event rated LG as the best in tone mapping and Sony as the last, even behind Samsung qled. That's what happens when you have a bunch of scatterbrains from the public doing the evaluation and you don't involve professionals in the scoring.

And the colour accuracy scoring is also questionable, they played a movie scene from Kingsman secret service and asked the public guys to rate colour accuracy. You don't rate colour accuracy by eye looking at a movie scene, imo it is unscientific. Only a colorimeter can correctly tell you colour accuracy, and that's how scientifically it should be done, see the colour delta errors both pre and post calibration using a meter on all the TV's and rate colour accuracy on basis of that.This scoring rated LG as the best in colour accuracy, higher than Panasonic and that was eyebrow raising because Panasonic is considered the best for colour accuracy (by Hollywood too), the way they scored the LG the best in colour accuracy and better than Panasonic was running a colourful movie scene and telling the public to judge by eye. Flawed I think, because if you're playing a colourful movie scene and telling the public to score, some guys in the public will invariably be attracted to the most blown up vivid looking colours and rate it the best in accuracy. A blown up bright looking blue doesn't mean it's the more accurate blue.
I posted something similar in the shootout thread and riled up a guy looking for purchase validation for his LG.

The UK shootout was indeed ultimately unscientific, despite being a blind test. The US shootout was scientific and based on standards (in which case you don't need a blind test when your ratings are based on precise measurements). I still didn't like the US shootout because these things never fully evaluate all of a display's capabilities in real world usage. But at least they were clear in their objective of finding out which set matched the mastering monitor the closest, and the winner was the A9G. And the mastering monitor doesn't change when going from the US to the UK, so...

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post #1929 of 2281 Old 08-27-2019, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry1975 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by box4m View Post
So if i wanted to increase brightness without destroying blacks to much for day time.
Would you primarily adjust gamma or contrast enhancer?
You need to change the oled light setting aka brightness setting that has a slider upto 50 to change the panel light output level,. for a dark room a lower light setting can work in a bright room you need higher light output level. The brightness setting works in tandem with the peak luminance setting to define panel light output. Therefore you need to raise brightness and/or peak luminance, check where have you kept these settings right now?
Good thing you mentioned. It seems that overall light output is Limited? Except on vivid.
If I have "brightness" at max and gamma at max as an example, peak luminence over medium does zero change.

Is that absl?

Edit: this is with hdr. Sdr seems different - but i dont know if the max nits is different
Edit again: im far from a pro but when i test, SDR gets more nits(?)

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post #1930 of 2281 Old 08-27-2019, 09:05 AM
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Is anyone using the Sony SU-WL855 mount for their A9G? I'm trying to figure out if I want to purchase that mount or something else. It seems like cable hiding / routing might be an issue with a mount that flush. I'm also looking at the Powerbridge outlet, and the giant wall plate on the SU-WL855 doesn't appear to allow much room for something like that. Ultimately I'm just looking for something with tilt and the ability to pull away from the wall for cable access.
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post #1931 of 2281 Old 08-27-2019, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Dirk Manderin View Post
Is anyone using the Sony SU-WL855 mount for their A9G? I'm trying to figure out if I want to purchase that mount or something else. It seems like cable hiding / routing might be an issue with a mount that flush. I'm also looking at the Powerbridge outlet, and the giant wall plate on the SU-WL855 doesn't appear to allow much room for something like that. Ultimately I'm just looking for something with tilt and the ability to pull away from the wall for cable access.
I am in the process of installing my 77 A9G with that mount. It does pull away from the wall but it does not tilt up and down only sideways AFAIK. My power outlet and cables are located just above the mount.

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post #1932 of 2281 Old 08-27-2019, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Gerry1975 View Post
Guys, I was watching Vincent's new video on YouTube explaining the scores of his TV evaluation event.
Hi, Vincent Teoh from HDTVTest here. Since I am responsible for the UK TV shootout, I had to register as a new member on this excellent forum to clear up some misconceptions.

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Originally Posted by Gerry1975 View Post
And the AG9 got scored 4th with tone mapping. And I was puzzled, I don't like Sony's Dolby vision implementation that uses Dolby's customised tone mapping, but with hdr 10 Sony's tone mapping is very good, their dynamic tone mapping that always works with hdr10 is definitely better than lg's DTM imo. And still the event rated LG as the best in tone mapping and Sony as the last, even behind Samsung qled.
You got your facts incorrect: the Panasonic GZ2000 was rated as the best in the tone-mapping category, as you can see in my video at around the 13:36 mark (can't post links yet because this is my first post haha).

The Sony AG9 finished last because it clipped and blew out the most specular highlight detail for both 1000-nit and 4000-nit content, and most attendees - professional or not - picked up on that.

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That's what happens when you have a bunch of scatterbrains from the public doing the evaluation and you don't involve professionals in the scoring.
There were two THX calibrators and one ISF calibrator who voted in the UK shootout, and several AVSForum members too, such as @RobertR1 and @tom_cooper . Are you calling them scatterbrains?

For the record, the three professionals who calibrated the displays, namely @WiFi-Spy , @mkoper and myself, fully agreed with the tone-mapping results: the Panasonic GZ2000 was the best; and Sony's clipping of specular highlight detail (even in 1000-nit content where there's a 1000-nit BVM-X300 reference broadcast monitor for comparison) was just too glaring to be ignored.

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And the colour accuracy scoring is also questionable, they played a movie scene from Kingsman secret service and asked the public guys to rate colour accuracy. You don't rate colour accuracy by eye looking at a movie scene, imo it is unscientific.
You missed one key point: I asked the audience to rate colour accuracy with reference to the BVM-X300 broadcast monitor to which all TVs have been perceptually matched.

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Originally Posted by Gerry1975 View Post
Only a colorimeter can correctly tell you colour accuracy, and that's how scientifically it should be done, see the colour delta errors both pre and post calibration using a meter on all the TV's and rate colour accuracy on basis of that.
Colorimeter and charts don't tell the whole story... even the challenging Colour Checker SG chart only measures 140 colour patches at one single slice of colour intensity, whereas there could be millions of colours in real-life content.

Furthermore, on some TVs you can get better-looking charts and lower delta errors by heavily adjusting the colour management system, but you'd end up introducing more posterisation artefacts and a lousy picture. At the end of the day, there's no substitute for looking at real-world content, which is the focus of the UK TV shootout.

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Originally Posted by Gerry1975 View Post
Flawed I think, because if you're playing a colourful movie scene and telling the public to score, some guys in the public will invariably be attracted to the most blown up vivid looking colours and rate it the best in accuracy. A blown up bright looking blue doesn't mean it's the more accurate blue.
As explained earlier, attendees were judging colour accuracy with reference to the Sony BVM-X300 broadcast monitor. A blown-up bright-looking blue that doesn't look like the blue on the X300 reference monitor would be marked down.

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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
2) For HDR Tone mapping, Vincent says he used CalMAN's new feature to re-create and customize the HDR tone mapping curves based on the Peak Luminance of the display. I did this as well on our C9, in fact I do this on every 2019 LG OLED I calibrate but "the powers to be" wanted the Dynamic Tone Mapping enabled because they felt it produced a better HDR picture. Although the DTM feature benefits from the HDR calibration, perhaps if we left DTM OFF the LG would have performed better at the US TV Shootout. Personally I agree with Vincent and prefer DTM set to OFF after calibration.
Hi John, I really respect the calibration work you do at the US TV shootout, but you and I both know that LG's [Dynamic Tone Mapping] tends to make the HDR picture either brighter or darker than the X300 reference, so by engaging [Dynamic Tone Mapping] on the LG C9, you are actually handicapping the C9's ability to match the X300 monitor, thus paving a route for the Sony A9G to easily win the shootout since it matched the X300 better.

More worryingly, who are "the powers to be" that wanted Dynamic Tone Mapping enabled, that prevented you from calibrating the LG C9 to its best potential? Do "the powers to be" also get to choose the type of content that's shown, and decide the scoring criteria that may benefit certain TVs too? At the UK TV shootout, we calibrate in the best interest of the TVs, not to pander to manufacturers. That's why we normally restrict manufacturer presence at the UK TV shootout... we do not welcome or tolerate their interference.

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Originally Posted by Micolash View Post
I posted something similar in the shootout thread and riled up a guy looking for purchase validation for his LG.

The UK shootout was indeed ultimately unscientific, despite being a blind test. The US shootout was scientific and based on standards (in which case you don't need a blind test when your ratings are based on precise measurements). I still didn't like the US shootout because these things never fully evaluate all of a display's capabilities in real world usage. But at least they were clear in their objective of finding out which set matched the mastering monitor the closest, and the winner was the A9G. And the mastering monitor doesn't change when going from the US to the UK, so...
Why do you say that the UK TV shootout was unscientific? We calibrated all TVs within an inch of their lives based on the video standards used within the film and broadcast industry, and asked attendees to assign scores by comparing with the X300 mastering monitor, without knowing which TV is which, completely removing brand bias either conscious or subconscious. If your point of contention is the judging panel, may I ask what good is a professional judging panel at the US TV shootout when they were looking at an LG C9 whose calibration might have been compromised by dynamic tone-mapping.

At the end of the day, I have a huge amount of respect for Robert Zohn and the Value Electronics shootout... I know myself it takes a tremendous amount of time and effort to organise such events. Differences between the results of the UK and US shootouts can be attributed to: 1) blinded vs unblinded; 2) how the TVs were calibrated; 3) content shown; 4) scoring criteria (gaming included or not); and 5) judging audience. Many thanks to everyone for their constructive criticisms... I have picked up a few ideas which hopefully we can implement in next year's shootout to provide better data points (together with Robert's) to help with TV purchase decisions.

Warmest regards
Vincent
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Last edited by Vincent Teoh; 08-28-2019 at 12:32 PM. Reason: Clarification and Brevity
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post #1933 of 2281 Old 08-27-2019, 05:12 PM
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@Vincent Teoh welcome to AVS Forum. You are a great source of information and for some of us your opinion and reviews count when a TV purchase decision have to be made. Keep your hard work and I hope you keep posting in this forum.
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post #1934 of 2281 Old 08-27-2019, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Teoh View Post

John, out of professional courtesy I have thus far refrained from responding, but since you keep taking pot shots to try and undermine the UK TV shootout, please allow me to ask the following questions. From the now-closed shootout thread, you posted:



You and I both know that LG's [Dynamic Tone Mapping] tends to make the HDR picture either brighter or darker than the X300 reference, so by engaging [Dynamic Tone Mapping] on the LG C9, you are actually handicapping the C9's ability to match the X300 monitor, thus paving a route for the Sony A9G to easily win the shootout since it matched the X300 better.

More worryingly, who are "the powers to be" that wanted Dynamic Tone Mapping enabled, that prevented you from calibrating the LG C9 to its best potential? Do "the powers to be" also get to choose the type of content that's shown, and decide the scoring criteria that may benefit certain TVs too? At the UK TV shootout, we calibrate in the best interest of the TVs, not to pander to manufacturers. That's why we normally restrict manufacturer presence at the UK TV shootout... we do not welcome or tolerate their interference.

And here's the bombshell. My contacts at LG USA informed me (later confirmed by Robert Zohn in the presence of David Mackenzie) that hours before the US TV shootout, a picture-affecting beta firmware was uploaded onto the C9, potentially skewing the calibration, and the C9 wasn't remeasured or recalibrated for the shootout. If true, then the LG C9 was as good as uncalibrated, and when up against a calibrated Sony A9G in trying to match the X300 reference monitor, we all know what the result would be.
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Vincent good to see you on AVS.

Just so there are no misunderstandings I have the highest regard for the work you do and my comments were not meant to be critical in any way. Just as you may get frustrated at comments people make about the TV Shootouts, I do as well. As you are aware, unless you are involved, it's very hard to appreciate all the work and precision needed to execute an event like this. Some of my frustrations may have come out in some of my comments trying to defend what we did at our TV Shootout, and if so I apologize. In the last VE TV Shootout, I worked over a week on the sets and all weekend long trying to make them as perfect as they could be with Tyler Pruitt's and Dave Abrams help and input over the phone since they couldn't make the event, and Kevin Miller on the weekend. A ton of work.

Anyway, as you are aware Kevin Miller and I did the perceptual match and I calibrated the LG and the Sonys. Yes, i'm very aware the LG shines with a proper calibration and HDR Tone Mapping Off using the custom tone mapping which is the way I calibrated it and sent it to the Shootout. But I only did the calibration and I wasn't in charge, as you were, for your event. The "powers to be" were the attending LG engineer and Joel Silver who felt at the time, with all good intentions, the HDR PM would be best with Dynamic Tone Mapping ON, so that's how it was presented. You need to remember at the time of the US Shootout, this feature, the set and the firmware were relatively new so there was probably some caution which led to that decision. I've been using the CalMAN custom tone mapping feature for a while now and use it on every LG I calibrate. <- period. I agree 100% with your assessment of this feature.

As far as the updated firmware, again that was a decision out of my control at the last minute But, Robert Zohn and I re-scanned all the calibrated PMs with CalMAN with all the same equipment that was used to calibrate the LG after the event back at the store to see what impact the updated firmware made and surprisingly it didn't impact the calibration to the point where we felt it was significant enough to make a difference in the outcome. In fact, after the update, HDR was slightly brighter which probably helped the LG. But I agree, once the sets are calibrated the best they can be, there should be no outside intervention since any change is a change.

I also want to mention that since the US TV Shootout and the UK TV Shootout, LG has had many firmware updates to improve near black and other picture quality improvements so it may be safe to say that your LG probably performed better than ours because of some of these firmware improvements.

I feel the judging is always going to be suspect which is why I personally feel a mixture of professionals and consumers may be the best formula with your blind testing process. But this is my personal opinion on the subject after seeing how the pro's and consumers voted at our events.

All that said, I hope you are a regular here on AVS to impart some of your knowledge and experience as many of us pro calibrators and enthusiasts try to do as best we can.

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post #1935 of 2281 Old 08-27-2019, 07:08 PM
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@Vincent Teoh - If I could give a post 10 likes, yours would be that post. Thanks for clearing up some of the garbage that permeates several threads that reference the U.K. shootout! It’s a shame to see some of the misinformation that’s accepted as fact.

We’d love to see you post more often since I suspect you can clear up some additional questionable information.
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post #1936 of 2281 Old 08-27-2019, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
@Vincent Teoh welcome to AVS Forum. You are a great source of information and for some of us your opinion and reviews count when a TV purchase decision have to be made. Keep your hard work and I hope you keep posting in this forum.
I concur. Vincent, I hope you know how many of us here in the States follow your Youtube channel religiously and love your insights, knowledge, humor, and sincerity in all that you do. I also would love to see you stick around here at AVS to occasionally help with your expert input!!

Thank you Vincent for all you do.
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post #1937 of 2281 Old 08-27-2019, 08:48 PM
 
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Wow what am I seeing here, I check back here after a few hours and looks like my post brought VIncent Teoih to avsforum.com..☺ That's a first


On your YouTube video, I saw with the Colour accuracy sub category LG having a higher score than others? I know with tone mapping the gz2000 scored the highest, as the scores on your YouTube video show, but my point was about the colour accuracy sub category, which shows LG being scored the best, ahead of Panasonic.


The setting up, calibration and the 'blind' aspect of your event is not in question from me, you put up all the effort in setting things up, your calibration is not in doubt, you even solicited help of a couple of professionals from US and poland...but the evaluation part is, you need to keep this to professionals doing the scoring. And im from that region btw, any person from the public who calls himself an enthusiast could fill a form for this event and upon appoval be invited for the event, that's something I don't want to see. Professional input not public input when doing the scoring. Last two years Panasonic won the UK shootout,this year you had all but a few of the 38 guys who scored the TV's from the public.
If you think public input is crucial as well, then do the scoring in two parts , keep one part where entirely professionals vote all the categories, keep the other part where public votes the categories. Put out both the results and let people draw their conclusions.
You do have a reference monitor in the middle, but still that doesn't negate the advantage of professionals having a better trained eye to know what to look for in a reference image. Some people here are saying the discrepancy in the US and UK results is because only professionals voted in the US, and the same wasn't the case in the UK. You could address that, by simply holding two rounds of evaluation- separate the scoring of professionals (you should cast a vote too) and the public and publish both the results. There is a definite possibility that what professionals score vs what the public scores can turn out different. A person in this thread was citing an example of the 2013 event in the US where professionals voted the Panasonic ZT60 as the best while the public chose (the brighter looking) Samsung F8500 PDP as the best.

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post #1938 of 2281 Old 08-27-2019, 08:54 PM
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A9G not Crisp for general HD TV programs?

I just got the A9G 65" today. I made some changes to the settings from what little I could find on the internet (i.e., picture - custom; light sensor - off; noise reduction - off; digital noise reduction - off; reality creation - off; luminescence level - high; etc.). Unfortunately my husband and I both think our old 48" Sony Bravia is a Sharper / Better picture than the A9G for general HD TV. The old LED is crisper and Less "grainy". Is there some setting I'm missing or should change??? Paid a lot for this TV and we're disappointed in everyday TV watching. The 4K shows (Blue Planet, etc.) are fantastic, but watching prime time HD TV programs (HD channels) are crisper on our old Sony Bravia. FYI . . . I am using the 4K certified Monoprice HDMI cable. Thanks in advance for any advice!!!
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post #1939 of 2281 Old 08-27-2019, 09:13 PM
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I'm such a big fan of Vincent (my wife gets jealous), if he told me right now to return my A9G and get the LG instead, I will ....still in my return window.
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post #1940 of 2281 Old 08-27-2019, 09:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Cher4Scuba View Post
I just got the A9G 65" today. I made some changes to the settings from what little I could find on the internet (i.e., picture - custom; light sensor - off; noise reduction - off; digital noise reduction - off; reality creation - off; luminescence level - high; etc.). Unfortunately my husband and I both think our old 48" Sony Bravia is a Sharper / Better picture than the A9G for general HD TV. The old LED is crisper and Less "grainy". Is there some setting I'm missing or should change??? Paid a lot for this TV and we're disappointed in everyday TV watching. The 4K shows (Blue Planet, etc.) are fantastic, but watching prime time HD TV programs (HD channels) are crisper on our old Sony Bravia. FYI . . . I am using the 4K certified Monoprice HDMI cable. Thanks in advance for any advice!!!
you might want to turn reality creation to on, reality creation can improve the quality of lower quality content. Set it to manual 30.

If your source is low bitrate 1080i, then on a 65" 4k TV it can appear to have a touch of softness to it. On a smaller 48" 1080p TV it may give the impression that it looks sharper. Some people here prefer how 1080i TV looks on their 1080p pioneer kuro plasmas compared to how it looks on oleds.
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post #1941 of 2281 Old 08-27-2019, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
I'm such a big fan of Vincent (my wife gets jealous), if he told me right now to return my A9G and get the LG instead, I will ....still in my return window.
I'm a huge Vincent fan. But I won't be returning my a9g for a c9. I didn't buy my set based on a US shootout, a UK shootout or any other shootout for that matter. I let my eyes be the reviewer. At the end of the day these are all top tier tv sets and you will have some well respected professionals prefer the LG, others will pick the sony or panny etc. Its important to analyze these comparisons and reviews that vincent releases on a basis of each individual area in order of importance to you. In my case, gaming wasn't high on my priority list as long as input lag wasn't higher than 30ms. Motion is very important for me. Upscaling performance is crucial. Dolby vision I'm fine with the bright mode and i can always watch everything in hdr10 if need be. Everybody has different needs and priorities and we should look at the areas that matter to us, not which product the reviewer picks as the overall best.

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post #1942 of 2281 Old 08-27-2019, 10:18 PM
 
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Gaming doesn't matter to me, to me the movie watching in a dark room aka home theatre aspect matters and I have seen professional reviews from Europe say the gz2000 is the best for that(Vincent is yet to publish his gz2000 review). Money permitting, I would ideally like to have the gz2000 over my currently owned AG9 but the budget this year doesn't allow a switch, so I'm carrying on with the AG9 , I don't have any complaints with it except Dolby vision, it's good enough overall and its motion is still better than Panasonic and others, but I just felt with hdr movies the gz2000 excels over others based on what I've demoed, probably next year I'd be able to get it. AG9 it is for now.
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post #1943 of 2281 Old 08-27-2019, 11:47 PM
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I’m glad to see Gerry doubling down.
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post #1944 of 2281 Old 08-28-2019, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by sd13 View Post
I'm a huge Vincent fan. But I won't be returning my a9g for a c9. I didn't buy my set based on a US shootout, a UK shootout or any other shootout for that matter. I let my eyes be the reviewer. At the end of the day these are all top tier tv sets and you will have some well respected professionals prefer the LG, others will pick the sony or panny etc. Its important to analyze these comparisons and reviews that vincent releases on a basis of each individual area in order of importance to you. In my case, gaming wasn't high on my priority list as long as input lag wasn't higher than 30ms. Motion is very important for me. Upscaling performance is crucial. Dolby vision I'm fine with the bright mode and i can always watch everything in hdr10 if need be. Everybody has different needs and priorities and we should look at the areas that matter to us, not which product the reviewer picks as the overall best.

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Agreed. Also a Vincent fan and am subscribed on youtube. Motion and upscaling are very important for me (especially due to our local sources of content) and hence why I am also looking at getting the Sony A9G which Vincent highlights in his reviews and which was still concluded in the UK shootout with Sony coming 1st and 2nd in those categories. Also Sony Acoustic surface, since I don't have room for a soundbar, is another consideration in my decision since I prefer the sound of the Sony over the GZ950 I heard.

If Panasonic released the GZ2000 in the 55" here in Australia I might have gone for that, however Panasonic Australia are only bringing in the 65" GZ2000 for now which doesn't fit the space I have.

Vincent welcome to the forum. Look forward to reading more of your posts.
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post #1945 of 2281 Old 08-28-2019, 01:10 AM
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Vincent good to see you on AVS.

Just so there are no misunderstandings I have the highest regard for the work you do and my comments were not meant to be critical in any way. Just as you may get frustrated at comments people make about the TV Shootouts, I do as well. As you are aware, unless you are involved, it's very hard to appreciate all the work and precision needed to execute an event like this. Some of my frustrations may have come out in some of my comments trying to defend what we did at our TV Shootout, and if so I apologize. In the last VE TV Shootout, I worked over a week on the sets and all weekend long trying to make them as perfect as they could be with Tyler Pruitt's and Dave Abrams help and input over the phone since they couldn't make the event, and Kevin Miller on the weekend. A ton of work.

Anyway, as you are aware Kevin Miller and I did the perceptual match and I calibrated the LG and the Sonys. Yes, i'm very aware the LG shines with a proper calibration and HDR Tone Mapping Off using the custom tone mapping which is the way I calibrated it and sent it to the Shootout. But I only did the calibration and I wasn't in charge, as you were, for your event. The "powers to be" were the attending LG engineer and Joel Silver who felt at the time, with all good intentions, the HDR PM would be best with Dynamic Tone Mapping ON, so that's how it was presented. You need to remember at the time of the US Shootout, this feature, the set and the firmware were relatively new so there was probably some caution which led to that decision. I've been using the CalMAN custom tone mapping feature for a while now and use it on every LG I calibrate. <- period. I agree 100% with your assessment of this feature.

As far as the updated firmware, again that was a decision out of my control at the last minute But, Robert Zohn and I re-scanned all the calibrated PMs with CalMAN and all the same equipment that was used to calibrate the LG after the event back at the store to see what impact the updated firmware made and surprisingly it didn't impact the calibration to the point where we felt it was significant enough to make a difference in the outcome. In fact, after the update, HDR was slightly brighter which probably helped the LG. But I agree, once the sets are calibrated the best they can be, there should be no outside intervention since any change is a change.

I also want to mention that since the US TV Shootout and the UK TV Shootout, LG has had many firmware updates to improve near black and other picture quality improvements so it may be safe to say that your LG probably performed better than ours because of some of these firmware improvements.

I feel the judging is always going to be suspect which is why I personally feel a mixture of professionals and consumers may be the best formula with your blind testing process. But this is my personal opinion on the subject after seeing how the pro's and consumers voted at our events.
Thanks John for your kind response. I do appreciate the huge amount of work that you put in to calibrate the TVs with perceptual matching in mind for the shootout.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry1975 View Post
On your YouTube video, I saw with the Colour accuracy sub category LG having a higher score than others? I know with tone mapping the gz2000 scored the highest, as the scores on your YouTube video show, but my point was about the colour accuracy sub category, which shows LG being scored the best, ahead of Panasonic.
And that's the whole point of a "blinded" shootout... to break biases and preconceptions, so that people can't give favourable votes to a TV just because it carries a Panasonic badge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbz06 View Post
I'm such a big fan of Vincent (my wife gets jealous), if he told me right now to return my A9G and get the LG instead, I will ....still in my return window.
I wouldn't tell you to return your A9G for the LG... both TVs have their respective strengths and weaknesses. And that's the purpose of our shootout, to provide data points through multiple categories to help people decide on what TV to buy based on the attributes that are important to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sd13 View Post
I'm a huge Vincent fan. But I won't be returning my a9g for a c9. I didn't buy my set based on a US shootout, a UK shootout or any other shootout for that matter. I let my eyes be the reviewer. At the end of the day these are all top tier tv sets and you will have some well respected professionals prefer the LG, others will pick the sony or panny etc. Its important to analyze these comparisons and reviews that vincent releases on a basis of each individual area in order of importance to you. In my case, gaming wasn't high on my priority list as long as input lag wasn't higher than 30ms. Motion is very important for me. Upscaling performance is crucial. Dolby vision I'm fine with the bright mode and i can always watch everything in hdr10 if need be. Everybody has different needs and priorities and we should look at the areas that matter to us, not which product the reviewer picks as the overall best.
This is the correct way to interpret the shootout results.

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Originally Posted by RobertR1 View Post
I’m glad to see Gerry doubling down.
Wouldn't expect otherwise. :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry1975 View Post
Hmm, if there is a certain aspect I'm not comfortable with, I would say it, I'm comfortable with the idea of holding a blind shootout, not letting evaluators know which tv is which and altering TV settings behind a curtain. However it wouldn't hurt you to let the evaluation be done by professionals too, after putting so much effort in setting it all up professionally. And your blind voting idea would work with professionals too, eliminating any hint of subconscious bias that professionals may carry. I would like the evaluation in two rounds by two sets of people, and since you do an average of the scorings, it would be better to completely separate the professionals and public scoring, so that one group doesn't skew the averages of the other. Present both the results to people and let people decide for themselves.
I do not subscribe to this two-tier theory... after all, I am a man of the people. The way the UK TV shootout is scored across multiple categories means that the supposed expertise of a professional cannot cover the entirety of the event. For example, a colourist may spend all day looking at colours on broadcast monitors, but is he/ she going to be well-versed with 50Hz sports motion, interpolation artefacts, gaming and various other categories we score in the shootout? A Blu-ray reviewer may be very sensitive to video processing artefacts such as edge enhancement and noise reduction, but there's no guarantee that he/ she is familiar with consumer OLEDs to pick up near-black uniformity issues, or can be deemed an "expert" to judge bright-room performance.

At the end of the day, it is the public who will be buying these TVs, not professionals, and I believe that the audience in the UK TV shootout is a good mix of professionals (calibrators and those who work in the AV industry), video enthusiasts and the Average Joe to give accurate data points across different categories. I have been holding UK TV shootouts for the past 7 years without separating professionals from the public, and it is only this year when the result didn't go as expected that suddenly having a "professional" judging panel becomes a must, to arrive at the results you want.

Warmest regards
Vincent
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post #1946 of 2281 Old 08-28-2019, 04:51 AM
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One reason why I love reviews of Vincent, is because there's no scores associated with them. Each review is detailed assessment of everything, an the viewer can decide. No "rankings" to get people riled up. The shootout brings everyone's guns trigger happy. Not much swings the close average scores amongst 38 voters, so to me it was clear they were all in the same tier.

I've seen comments on his videos accusing him of being a Samsung hater, Samsung fan boy, LG hater, LG fan boy, Sony hater, and Sony fan boy...sometimes in the same thread haha.

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post #1947 of 2281 Old 08-28-2019, 05:25 AM
 
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It's still worthwhile to have this debate and I'd like to present my viewpoint , but if we keep at it, it will extend into a long tirade. And this is an owners thread, unfortunately the UK shootout thread got locked down by a mod few days back because there were already ensuing arguments in that thread, even before Vincent came into the debate. So now someone would have to start a new shootout results discussion thread to carry the debate further. I'm not pursuing it here anymore, the discussion should be back to AG9.
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post #1948 of 2281 Old 08-28-2019, 05:34 AM - Thread Starter
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I haven't read those threads, did not know they were locked, I guess people just have to keep the chest-beating going somewhere else...

Maybe they need an unmoderated "pit" forum here so everyone can go brand whore and argue.
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post #1949 of 2281 Old 08-28-2019, 06:00 AM
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Vincent, I like your videos and have posted several of them in the first post, but this is an owners thread, no one here cares about an LG. In case you have forgotten, we have seen you get things wrong too, and they have been proven wrong at AVS.
Thanks for your warm welcome to your thread.

I was merely responding to a few original posts here including from @Gerry1975 to explain why the Sony A9G finished last in the tone-mapping category, and clear up some misconceptions about the UK TV shootout.

No one is perfect, and I am still learning all the time. Please let me know what things have I got wrong, and have been proven wrong? Because I am constantly seeking to improve. If you're referring to my "no HDMI 2.1 in 2019" prediction, it was merely a prediction, and was in line with industry expectations. At least I put my neck on the line, and later admitted (gladly) I was wrong.

Warmest regards
Vincent

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post #1950 of 2281 Old 08-28-2019, 07:40 AM
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Please limit discussions to technical issues: we welcome new members and they should be treated with respect

Btw: there is a thread dedicated to Shootouts:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post58479408

some posts have/will be deleted
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