Value Electronics 2019 TV Shootout evaluation event June 12, 2019 - Page 10 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #271 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Menarini View Post
The major change this shootout needs is to abandon the bvm x300 used as the reference picture display, sony has discontinued it in favor of the HX310. Bring in the dolby pulsar if you can, it's better than all the sony monitors. Also the bvm x300 has the judd whitepoint, so the tv's have to be calibrated to this custom whitepoint for comparison against the x300.
we didn’t use the 310 because all the movies we used were mastered on the x300. Maybe next year we will use the x310 when more movies are mastered with it.

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post #272 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
we didn’t use the 310 because all the movies we used were mastered on the x300. Maybe next year we will use the x310 when more movies are mastered with it.
It's so awesome that the movies watched were mastered on the same reference monitor you had for comparison, seriously, doesn't get better than that!
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post #273 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Micolash View Post
You can have your opinion but the os on the a9g is fast and doesn’t crash.
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He's probably referring to the recent AVforum test of the Sony X950G where the OS experience was pretty terrible from dropped WiFi to unexpected reboots.
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post #274 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
Here is a decent photo that shows the Samsung's anti glare reflection.



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Anti Glare Coating kill the "brilliance" of a picture.. There is a reason why the top end models are usually glossy..

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post #275 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 11:42 AM
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A9G is movie first, gaming second

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Originally Posted by guitarguy316 View Post
I use Xbox One X and they have NATIVE 4K games at 30-60FPS. I really think you're trying to justify your non 2.1 Sony...I mean we're are trying to speak in facts here. My point is if you are spending almost $4K on a 65" OLED in 2019, the value proposition LG offers INCLUDING HDMI 2.1 puts you a great position to utilize the next-gen consoles in 2020 and beyond.

I'm sure Sony's A9H or whatever 2020 brings will have 2.1 but ignoring that it will be useful to have for GAMERS built into your TV for the next 2-5 years (or whenever the average consumer would buy a new tv) is important to the decision making process.

I would have bought a Sony OLED this year if they had 2.1 because I value the need for future gaming features over the image processing debate.
You're absolutely right about not choosing the Sony to double as a great gaming machine for bleeding edge graphics performance (PC or next gen console). It's fully satisfying, but it won't be future proofed as a cutting edge gaming TV. However, I'd speculate 80% of consumer console gamers (Switch, XBox and PS) will be completely satisfied with 4K HDR gaming for the next 5 years until 8K gaming content is "a thing". My perspective is that the Switch graphics when pushed to its limit (Zelda, Warframe, etc.) is amazing without sniffing 4K. If a person values peak performance of BOTH gaming and movies equally, the C9 is the better choice; A9G consumers prioritize cinema color accuracy over future proofed gaming. I'm a video editor and spend lots of time color grading my videos, so I feel an affinity towards Sony approach to accurate color/image processing.
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post #276 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is a link to the 8k panel discussion that was recorded from an audience member. I think CE Week will have the video uploaded Soo that was professionally done.

https://www.youtube.com/user/HDTVShootout/featured


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Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
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post #277 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is a link to a review of the shootout.

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...VrqotTvA4JW.99


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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
Sony XBR-75Z9F, Vizio P75-C1, Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One(X), Wii, NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, FireTV 4K-HDR, HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
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post #278 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
None of this makes sense. If graphical complexity affected lag in game mode then frame rates would be wildly inconsistent based on that alone.
I'm not buying the notion that out of the blue, all prior latency measurements are wildly incorrect.
Joel and Kevin are welcome to convince me otherwise.
Watch the video at the time stamp 1:32:00 and you'll understand how they came up with this new measure (they spent 3 years putting together this new professional measuring tool that includes gaming latency for 4K HDR graphics). Apparently graphical complexity (like 4:4:4) requires the TV to process more before displaying the image. So when they generated a complex 4K HDR feed to the TVs in game mode, ALL the TVs' latency measures went through the roof. The biggest surprise was the Q90R which went from super fast to super slow 93 ms. C9 is still the fastest, but the latency was 43 ms not sub-20 like previously published.
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post #279 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Menarini View Post
No it doesnt look 'good' on sony, it looks tolerable on sony, it looks almost unwatchable at times on lg. I connect retro game consoles with a cvbs connection, they only do standard def. so it matters to me, so it's not just 480i youtube vids is what i'm after. And 1080i cable tv sony still has some advantage, with 1080p i would say that advantage does not exist.
OK then, the next time I go into my Wayback Machine and find my movie library and general content is predominantly 480i, I’ll use that as a major consideration in picking a display. For now, in 2019, I’ll stick with my C9, that for the content I watch, is essentially indistinguishable from the Sony.
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post #280 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 12:13 PM
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2019 competition weighted toward color rendition

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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I’m not sure why most are saying they “expected” the Sony to win. If you were in the room you would have seen it was a very tight race between the OLEDs. This shootout was very technical in that we used new test patterns and video to show comparisons on how each set handles content.
The competitive grading categories for 2019 were weighted primarily on color rendition (saturation, accuracy, dynamic range) versus many other grading categories in 2018. I believe that you have noted in previous forum comments that Sony has decades of experience focusing its engineering on color science, and as a result they typically have "better" (i.e. more faithful) color rendition than other brands do.
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File Type: pdf 2018_VE_TV_Shootout_Results.pdf (94.4 KB, 26 views)
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post #281 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by 8KCRT View Post
Watch the video at the time stamp 1:32:00 and you'll understand how they came up with this new measure (they spent 3 years putting together this new professional measuring tool that includes gaming latency for 4K HDR graphics). Apparently graphical complexity (like 4:4:4) requires the TV to process more before displaying the image. So when they generated a complex 4K HDR feed to the TVs in game mode, ALL the TVs' latency measures went through the roof. The biggest surprise was the Q90R which went from super fast to super slow 93 ms. C9 is still the fastest, but the latency was 43 ms not sub-20 like previously published.
I'm certainly curious to know where the bottleneck is.
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post #282 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I'm certainly curious to know where the bottleneck is.
Me, too -- I don't know what a "complex" image is. I certainly would expect that differing resolutions and chroma / color depths could yield different latency. However, I'd not expect variation based on "complexity" of the image. I would think an image processing pipeline must have a consistent end-to-end delay based strictly on the processing required. Adding variable latency to that pipeline would be, IMO, disastrous to the viewing experience. Any case where "complex" frames are interspersed with "simple" frames would result in a "roller coaster" where complex frames "stutter" as they are more delayed.
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post #283 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Baff View Post
He said he paid less than C9 MSRP ($3500) for an A9G. He made no mention of tax or shipping costs.

More than a month ago, I paid $2819 (no tax, free shipping) for a C9. I would say that, as of yet, the C9 is still significantly cheaper than the A9G, when looking at street prices.
I had a feeling that he was misquoted and that he simply paid less than C9 MSRP for his A9G. I paid less than C9 MSRP for my A9G as well, but could have bought the C9 for even less.
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post #284 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 01:53 PM
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I am guessing that the previous posts regarding A9G pricing refer to me. I stated that it is possible to find the A9G for less than the current price of the C9, per LG (3200). I could have gotten the C9 for even less than the A9G, but the difference is far smaller than some have been stating (<$500), and at least for me, the two were close enough that price was not a consideration. With the performance and price of the C9 and A9G being so similar, it is mostly down to one's preference of prioritizing a slightly more accurate picture or potentially better future gaming features.
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post #285 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by 8KCRT View Post
Watch the video at the time stamp 1:32:00 and you'll understand how they came up with this new measure (they spent 3 years putting together this new professional measuring tool that includes gaming latency for 4K HDR graphics). Apparently graphical complexity (like 4:4:4) requires the TV to process more before displaying the image. So when they generated a complex 4K HDR feed to the TVs in game mode, ALL the TVs' latency measures went through the roof. The biggest surprise was the Q90R which went from super fast to super slow 93 ms. C9 is still the fastest, but the latency was 43 ms not sub-20 like previously published.
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I'm certainly curious to know where the bottleneck is.
Okay so I did this reaction time test in Game mode on my ZF9 in W10, I tried multiple times changing back and forth between RGB444 and YCbCr422 in my Nvidia panel, and my reaction times were very similar and averaged around 210ms in both modes, and I couldn't notice any difference in how the responsive the mouse felt moving around like the way you do when you enable 120hz and thus halving the 60hz 20ms to 11ms, also I did some difficult combos in Tekken 7 that are very timing dependent and there were not noticeable difference. It should be at least a noticeable difference of 8ms or more between the modes if 444 or 422 had an impact on the input lag, at lest on my ZF9.

Here's the test: https://www.humanbenchmark.com/dashboard/reactiontime

Edit: I've measured my ZF9 in Cinema mode in the middle of the screen with my 4K Leo Bodnar lag tester. Game/Graphics mode is 20.4ms and all other mode eg Cinema mode is 85ms except photo which is ~50ms. This means that there is at least a discrepancy of 60 ms between Game mode and "calibrated" Cinema mode.
Value electronics measured Calibrated 105ms and Game 48ms, this gives a discrepancy of 60 ish as well. It's plausible that they have some thing in the chain between the pattern generator and measuring device that ads about 20ms of lag.

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post #286 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 04:03 PM
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Flatpanels hd rated C9 > AG9.
No they did not. Only if you factor in price; the picture quality score was the same and the overall score for the A9G was higher ...
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post #287 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by guitarguy316 View Post
I agree Sony's tech in terms of just picture processing (including scaling and motion) is better. To most, it is not $900 better when you see how close the results are. That's the point I think some are trying to make.
$900? the msrp in the u.s. suggests a 300 usd difference (3500 vs 3800?). And we have a a9g owner here saying he got a a9g cheaper than a c9. Im not aware of how street pricing or discounts in the u.s. go. Where i am, the difference in u.s. dollar terms would be less than 200 usd , the a9g is slightly more.
C9 is $3200 with $300 gift cards. So $2900. The Sony is $3800. So that’s a $900 difference from a big box retail store. Online unpublished sales are a different animal.
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post #288 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menarini View Post
So? What were you expecting going into the shootout, that there will be huge differences? This is the case with all oleds, even if you added a panasonic in the fray, it will have subtle advantages. And that's the point of these shootouts, to see who has the subtle advantages because videophiles care about these advantages.


Thanks for the explanation of what videophiles care about. I’m not looking for an argument but I feel that you are.


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post #289 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarguy316 View Post
I use Xbox One X and they have NATIVE 4K games at 30-60FPS. I really think you're trying to justify your non 2.1 Sony...I mean we're are trying to speak in facts here. My point is if you are spending almost $4K on a 65" OLED in 2019, the value proposition LG offers INCLUDING HDMI 2.1 puts you a great position to utilize the next-gen consoles in 2020 and beyond.
You must be ignorant of the gaming industry if you think most games are going to be 4k/120 fps next generation. Also, doesn't Sony deserve bonus points for not implementing a borked version of eARC?


"I mean we're are trying to speak in facts here."
If that's the case, why invent a "$900 price difference" to support your argument?
I didn’t invent a price different. Literally go to the biggest retailer in USA for electronics only like Best Buy. It’s $900 difference right now as we speak. And yes there will absolutely be games taking advantage of 2.1.

You sound like a Sony homer who’s defending their non 2.1 tv. If you want to have a factual discussion I’m happy to engage.
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post #290 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by guitarguy316 View Post
c9 is $3200 with $300 gift cards. So $2900. The sony is $3800. So that’s a $900 difference from a big box retail store. Online unpublished sales are a different animal.
Why is price even brought up in this discussion? The shootout wasn't done to figure which TV is on sale at the moment...

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post #291 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 05:14 PM
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Okay so I did this reaction time test in Game mode on my ZF9 in W10, I tried multiple times changing back and forth between RGB444 and YCbCr422 in my Nvidia panel, and my reaction times were very similar and averaged around 210ms in both modes, and I couldn't notice any difference in how the responsive the mouse felt moving around like the way you do when you enable 120hz and thus halving the 60hz 20ms to 11ms, also I did some difficult combos in Tekken 7 that are very timing dependent and there were not noticeable difference. It should be at least a noticeable difference of 8ms or more between the modes if 444 or 422 had an impact on the input lag, at lest on my ZF9.

Here's the test: https://www.humanbenchmark.com/dashboard/reactiontime

Edit: I've measured my ZF9 in Cinema mode in the middle of the screen with my 4K Leo Bodnar lag tester. Game/Graphics mode is 20.4ms and all other mode eg Cinema mode is 85ms except photo which is ~50ms. This means that there is at least a discrepancy of 60 ms between Game mode and "calibrated" Cinema mode.
Value electronics measured Calibrated 105ms and Game 48ms, this gives a discrepancy of 60 ish as well. It's plausible that they have some thing in the chain between the pattern generator and measuring device that ads about 20ms of lag.
I don't know. All I know is that rtings.com publishes lag readings for a bunch of different picture modes. Z9F reading about identical to yours.






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post #292 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelArt View Post
Okay so I did this reaction time test in Game mode on my ZF9 in W10, I tried multiple times changing back and forth between RGB444 and YCbCr422 in my Nvidia panel, and my reaction times were very similar and averaged around 210ms in both modes, and I couldn't notice any difference in how the responsive the mouse felt moving around like the way you do when you enable 120hz and thus halving the 60hz 20ms to 11ms, also I did some difficult combos in Tekken 7 that are very timing dependent and there were not noticeable difference. It should be at least a noticeable difference of 8ms or more between the modes if 444 or 422 had an impact on the input lag, at lest on my ZF9.

Here's the test: https://www.humanbenchmark.com/dashboard/reactiontime

Edit: I've measured my ZF9 in Cinema mode in the middle of the screen with my 4K Leo Bodnar lag tester. Game/Graphics mode is 20.4ms and all other mode eg Cinema mode is 85ms except photo which is ~50ms. This means that there is at least a discrepancy of 60 ms between Game mode and "calibrated" Cinema mode.
Value electronics measured Calibrated 105ms and Game 48ms, this gives a discrepancy of 60 ish as well. It's plausible that they have some thing in the chain between the pattern generator and measuring device that ads about 20ms of lag.
Most likely the HDMI switcher/scaler they were using is adding that 20ms latency.

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post #293 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 05:16 PM
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Why is price even brought up in this discussion? The shootout wasn't done to figure which TV is on sale at the moment...
Only because posts above mine were saying there's not a $900 difference...I was only making the point that while Sony "won", when you consider the whole package LG offers including price, gaming features, hdmi 2.1, etc. it becomes a lot harder to say the Sony is the better buy for the average consumer. That's all I was making an "opinion" on. I would LOVE to get a Sony had they offered a little future proofing with new 2.1 devices within the next 18 months. For me, I want this purchase to last a few years.
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post #294 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by guitarguy316 View Post
Only because posts above mine were saying there's not a $900 difference...I was only making the point that while Sony "won", when you consider the whole package LG offers including price, gaming features, hdmi 2.1, etc. it becomes a lot harder to say the Sony is the better buy for the average consumer. That's all I was making an "opinion" on. I would LOVE to get a Sony had they offered a little future proofing with new 2.1 devices within the next 18 months. For me, I want this purchase to last a few years.
The average consumer won't care about VRR, especially when most games will have solid frame rates to begin with. Sony already supports eARC and ALLM is a joke feature just there to add another bullet point. I don't think the lack of VRR is going to be that big of a deal for console players.

Regarding the the results here, if you look at all the score cards from the shootout the C9 isn't as close to the A9G as frequently implied in this thread. I saw several categories where there was a bigger gap between the A9G and C9 than there was between the C9 and the two LCDs. That combined with Sony winning basically every category is a pretty resounding victory and it's hard to spin that in LG's favor.
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post #295 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 05:35 PM
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Android OS on the Sony TVs is greatly improved in speed and stability. even on the older models like a1e. proprietary TV OS is limited to the apps provided by the Manufacturer, android OS gives you sideloading, play store, Google integration, and it acts as its own Chromecast.

Sony image processing is also better although this tends to be neglected when all of the processing is turned off.

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post #296 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 06:27 PM
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I didn’t invent a price different. Literally go to the biggest retailer in USA for electronics only like Best Buy. It’s $900 difference right now as we speak. And yes there will absolutely be games taking advantage of 2.1.

You sound like a Sony homer who’s defending their non 2.1 tv. If you want to have a factual discussion I’m happy to engage.

I never shop at Best Buy, so their prices are irrelevant to me. I spent far less than their asking price and I didn't need to include an e-gift card in my calculations to make the numbers work. As you only seem interested in continued bickering and name calling, I am going to cease discussion with you out of respect for other posters in the thread.
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post #297 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Interpolation View Post
Android OS on the Sony TVs is greatly improved in speed and stability. even on the older models like a1e. proprietary TV OS is limited to the apps provided by the Manufacturer, android OS gives you sideloading, play store, Google integration, and it acts as its own Chromecast.

Sony image processing is also better although this tends to be neglected when all of the processing is turned off.
The defaults were on in all the TVs. For example smooth gradation on the Sony's have Smooth Gradation set to low.

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Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
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post #298 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 10:00 PM
 
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OK then, the next time I go into my Wayback Machine and find my movie library and general content is predominantly 480i, I’ll use that as a major consideration in picking a display. For now, in 2019, I’ll stick with my C9, that for the content I watch, is essentially indistinguishable from the Sony.
If you watch 4k or good quality 1080p, upscaling advantage of sony does not apply. But how would you negate the advantage of motion and gradient handling? Motion is still an advantage regardless of the resolution. At this shootout, they kept motion interpolation switched off, still sony's motion appears a little smoother, see the shootout scoring. And see when vincent does a side by side of the c9 and a9g.
And you only own a lg c9, how are you saying it is 'essentially indistinguishable' from sony, when you dont have a sony in the room to draw a distinction between? It's unscientific to make a claim they are 'indistinguishable' when you arent comparing them side by side. Why do shootouts have them side by side for comparison purposes? Because that's where the differences will be noticeable. If you find that the lg motion is good enough for you when viewed independently, that's fine, but that doesnt negate the fact that ,comparatively, sony's motion is better. This is is the generally held professional opinion.
Gradient handling also works slighly better on sony, switch off smooth gradation (smooth gradation reduces fine detail) and see which tv deals with posterization artifacts better.
If you are not calibrating, the ootb accuracy of sony is also better than lg.

There are advantages with the sony for discerning watchers, but if you are convinced that the lg is 'good enough' for your tastes that's fine, just know that it isn't the best available in the market in terms of processing/accuracy.
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post #299 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 11:03 PM
 
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The competitive grading categories for 2019 were weighted primarily on color rendition (saturation, accuracy, dynamic range) versus many other grading categories in 2018. I believe that you have noted in previous forum comments that Sony has decades of experience focusing its engineering on color science, and as a result they typically have "better" (i.e. more faithful) color rendition than other brands do.
Sony's color rendition is better than lg, but just to nitpick, you used the words 'other brands', and despite me having slightly more preference for sony, i can tell you panasonic still beats sony in this regard. There is a reason why holly studios use panasonic in grading suites. Steven Sonnenfeld, hollyood colorist, is directly involved with panasonic in the R&D of their oled tv's (panasonic contracted him to tune their tv's), so how could you beat that? Color rendition/accuracy and more natural looking skin tones are two areas where pana. beats all other brands.
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post #300 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 12:27 AM
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It’s not just my opinion.
Ken, that may have been true with the A1/E, and A8F and may have been your experience, but this has been fixed in the A9F and the A9G, even if the A9G is using less memory than the A9F.

Glad to see LG closing the gap on Sony with the shootout. Competition amongst Manufactures is good for us consumers.
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