Value Electronics 2019 TV Shootout evaluation event June 12, 2019 - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
Better blooming control but to much crush. I think if you combined them in the middle it would be a great compromise. They all had their pluses and minuses. It was crazy how in one scene 2 would match the BVM and another scene the other 2 would match the BVM. It went back and forth the whole shootout even with test patterns.

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Less satisfactory (at least for me) shadow detail on the Q9 and Q90 was the reason why I avoided the Samsungs.
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post #302 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 03:37 AM
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Here's the video I promised earlier. Unfortunately I shot it at 1080p. YouTube also compressed it but even with all that, some scenes can still seem lifelike.


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post #303 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Micolash View Post
The average consumer won't care about VRR, especially when most games will have solid frame rates to begin with. Sony already supports eARC and ALLM is a joke feature just there to add another bullet point. I don't think the lack of VRR is going to be that big of a deal for console players.



Regarding the the results here, if you look at all the score cards from the shootout the C9 isn't as close to the A9G as frequently implied in this thread. I saw several categories where there was a bigger gap between the A9G and C9 than there was between the C9 and the two LCDs. That combined with Sony winning basically every category is a pretty resounding victory and it's hard to spin that in LG's favor.


Did you watch the shootout, did you?
Robert who puts on the show stated the C9 and A9G tied in 12 categories! If there is a 5% tolerance it’s considered a tie (no perceptual difference).
Perhaps you should create on your own shootout and start a new thread.


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post #304 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 05:33 AM
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If you watch 4k or good quality 1080p, upscaling advantage of sony does not apply. But how would you negate the advantage of motion and gradient handling? Motion is still an advantage regardless of the resolution. At this shootout, they kept motion interpolation switched off, still sony's motion appears a little smoother, see the shootout scoring. And see when vincent does a side by side of the c9 and a9g.
And you only own a lg c9, how are you saying it is 'essentially indistinguishable' from sony, when you dont have a sony in the room to draw a distinction between? It's unscientific to make a claim they are 'indistinguishable' when you arent comparing them side by side. Why do shootouts have them side by side for comparison purposes? Because that's where the differences will be noticeable. If you find that the lg motion is good enough for you when viewed independently, that's fine, but that doesnt negate the fact that ,comparatively, sony's motion is better. This is is the generally held professional opinion.
Gradient handling also works slighly better on sony, switch off smooth gradation (smooth gradation reduces fine detail) and see which tv deals with posterization artifacts better.
If you are not calibrating, the ootb accuracy of sony is also better than lg.

There are advantages with the sony for discerning watchers, but if you are convinced that the lg is 'good enough' for your tastes that's fine, just know that it isn't the best available in the market in terms of processing/accuracy.
You are still embellishing minor differences as you always do in every thread where you get into these arguments with other posters. The fact is that the motion differences are so slight now, they’re barely worthy of discussion. Professional reviews mention it all the time. LG has essentially caught up.

I’ve told you that I’ve been at many of these shootouts (have you???) and attendees are often seen pressing their noses against the screen, struggling to see tiny differences. Do you honestly believe that when you struggle to see differences at inches from the screen, that these differences are easily noticed when you’re 8’ from the screen and involved in the content you’re watching? You do watch the content, right? You don’t watch TV solely to see razor thin quality differences...or do you?

The other point you miss is that when issues are actually significant, A/Bs aren’t even necessary. I don’t need an A/B to see poor black levels. I don’t need an A/B to see blooming issues. However we do need A/Bs to see ‘splitting hairs’ differences. And the point is that these ‘splitting hairs differences’ (sorry Menarini, that’s what we’re down to now with the top displays), are necessary to reveal them. Take either display away from this A/B environment, and often the differences all but disappear.

When it comes to contouring, LG has significantly narrowed the gap. I can see a significant difference in how my B6 and C9 handle contouring. I’m only going by my recollection of Sony’s handling of this issue and it was excellent. I haven’t seen the C9 in an A/B with the Sony for this issue. What I can say with 100% certainty, is the C9 now handles this issue well enough so that it’s only seen on extremely rare occasions with highly compressed content and when it is there, it’s very minor. Translation? It wouldn’t ever be a factor for me in a purchasing decision. Also keep in mind that very fine detail can be compromised with either display when being too aggressive in controlling contouring.

So Menarini, round and round we go as usual, as you do with other posters. We accomplish nothing. My only objective is to point out other opinions exist and that the differences between these displays are minor. Creating the impression that there are major quality differences where they don’t exist doesn’t serve prospective buyers well.

The bottom line is I’ll never convince you and you’ll never convince me. You love Sony and that comes across clearly in every thread you venture into. That’s fine as long as embellishments are kept under control.

Personally I think it’s great having 2 superb displays that perform so closely that each is a winner in its own right.
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post #305 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Spizz View Post
Ken, that may have been true with the A1/E, and A8F and may have been your experience, but this has been fixed in the A9F and the A9G, even if the A9G is using less memory than the A9F.

Glad to see LG closing the gap on Sony with the shootout. Competition amongst Manufactures is good for us consumers.
Spizz, that’s great to hear and I hope that’s everyone’s experience. On my last Sony the OS was the bane of my existence. I can’t tell you how many updates Sony released to improve this, but it still lagged and still crashed. There were many owners that were tearing their hair out. So I’m glad to hear Sony finally addressed it.
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post #306 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 06:36 AM
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Apparently graphical complexity (like 4:4:4) requires the TV to process more before displaying the image.
HDR can add more processing but 4:4:4 does not. It actually require less processing than 4:2:2 and especially 4:2:0. Once the colour value is duplicated to the next pixel (4:2:2 and 4:2:0) and the next line (4:2:0 only) the TV needs to fix out of range RGB values and other artifacts.
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post #307 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 06:47 AM
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Spizz, that’s great to hear and I hope that’s everyone’s experience. On my last Sony the OS was the bane of my existence. I can’t tell you how many updates Sony released to improve this, but it still lagged and still crashed. There were many owners that were tearing their hair out. So I’m glad to hear Sony finally addressed it.

In addition to the A9G, I have an X930E and the complaints about the unresponsiveness of the UI were valid in that case. I never had problems with instability, but it is somewhat laggy, though the responsiveness improved after the Oreo update. The A9G, however, uses a much more powerful SoC for Android TV and it is just as responsive as an Nvidia Shield.
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post #308 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 07:26 AM
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LOL i only use the full pixel button on my remote, never use the menu. Not everybody uses menu lots...
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post #309 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 07:59 AM
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Did you watch the shootout, did you?
Robert who puts on the show stated the C9 and A9G tied in 12 categories! If there is a 5% tolerance it’s considered a tie (no perceptual difference).
Perhaps you should create on your own shootout and start a new thread.


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Take your snark somewhere else.

No, I looked at the score cards provided. I was not aware of this 5% rule regarding those 1-10 ratings. Very well. I guess we can conclude the C9 is also a perceptual tie with the Z9F or Q90 in several categories where the A9G isn't.
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post #310 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 08:16 AM
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Take your snark somewhere else.

No, I looked at the score cards provided. I was not aware of this 5% rule regarding those 1-10 ratings. Very well. I guess we can conclude the C9 is also a perceptual tie with the Z9F or Q90 in several categories where the A9G isn't.
Can't we all be civil to each other? These are both phenomenal TVs and the LCDs weren't slouching either.

Clearly for the panel of experts assembled the A9G was the clear winner even if it was close.

And for consumers whose #1 priority is movie watching and #2 priority is post purchase support (service updates, OS updates, etc.) the Sony, to me anyway, is the clear choice.

For "all around" use including those who will use their TV for gaming, those who might keep TV longer, etc., LG seems to offer a better value right now as street price on the C9 has already dropped to QLED pricing, it has HDMI 2.1, etc.
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post #311 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 08:45 AM
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Can't we all be civil to each other? These are both phenomenal TVs and the LCDs weren't slouching either.

Clearly for the panel of experts assembled the A9G was the clear winner even if it was close.

And for consumers whose #1 priority is movie watching and #2 priority is post purchase support (service updates, OS updates, etc.) the Sony, to me anyway, is the clear choice.

For "all around" use including those who will use their TV for gaming, those who might keep TV longer, etc., LG seems to offer a better value right now as street price on the C9 has already dropped to QLED pricing, it has HDMI 2.1, etc.
When we were watching real content (not patterns, where the LCDs showed their weakness) ALL looked great. The 2001 final scene showed the Samsung and to some extent the Sony Z9F outshined by the OLEDs. But that was it.
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Can't we all be civil to each other? These are both phenomenal TVs and the LCDs weren't slouching either.



Clearly for the panel of experts assembled the A9G was the clear winner even if it was close.



And for consumers whose #1 priority is movie watching and #2 priority is post purchase support (service updates, OS updates, etc.) the Sony, to me anyway, is the clear choice.



For "all around" use including those who will use their TV for gaming, those who might keep TV longer, etc., LG seems to offer a better value right now as street price on the C9 has already dropped to QLED pricing, it has HDMI 2.1, etc.


Sony has the upscaling advantage as well imho. Not that the lg is bad but side by side between my c8 and a9g the a9g has an advantage in sharpness and clarity when watching my Verizon FiOS channels. In fact my a9g has the best upscaling out of every 4k tv i ever owned. Not sure if the c9 improved in this department over the c8 though. There are pros and cons to all these TVs so it all depends what you’re looking for.
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post #313 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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When we were watching real content (not patterns, where the LCDs showed their weakness) ALL looked great. The 2001 final scene showed the Samsung and to some extent the Sony Z9F outshined by the OLEDs. But that was it.
If you are talking about the A Space Odyssey 2001 HDR redo, the opening scene which was the star field and portrayed on the BVM was only mimicked by the Sony A9G and next closest by the Sony Z9F.

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post #314 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 09:31 AM
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If you are talking about the A Space Odyssey 2001 HDR redo, the opening scene which was the star field and portrayed on the BVM was only mimicked by the Sony A9G and next closest by the Sony Z9F.

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Were you there?

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You must be ignorant of the gaming industry if you think most games are going to be 4k/120 fps next generation.
Supporting VRR 4k up to 120fps is critical for low frame-rate compensation, as the upper frame rate range of VRR also limits how many times you can multiply low frame rates. A 60hz 4k VRR limit means a game hovering between 30 and 40fps can not lock into VRR because frame doubling to 60-80hz is above the upper limit.
So the issue of 4k @ 120hz is not simply a case if next gen games can run at 120fps.
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post #316 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 10:11 AM
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In fact my a9g has the best upscaling out of every 4k tv i ever owned. Not sure if the c9 improved in this department over the c8 though. There are pros and cons to all these TVs so it all depends what you’re looking for.
Gonna go out on a limb and say the difference is probably due to Sony's object-based rendering. I have the X900F (C9 on order) and it'll be interesting to compare in that regard. After owning the X900F, it's hard to deny Sony's overall processing package.
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post #317 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Were you there?
Yes

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post #318 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 11:22 AM
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If you are talking about the A Space Odyssey 2001 HDR redo, the opening scene which was the star field and portrayed on the BVM was only mimicked by the Sony A9G and next closest by the Sony Z9F.

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So you’re saying a FALD LCD displayed a more impressive star field than a pixel by pixel LG OLED? I’d have to see that to believe it. Every test I’ve ever seen shows OLED, any OLED, produce star fields with the most and brightest stars compared to LCD, any LCD. If it didn’t, I’d have to believe some setting was incorrect.
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post #319 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 11:32 AM
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If you are talking about the A Space Odyssey 2001 HDR redo, the opening scene which was the star field and portrayed on the BVM was only mimicked by the Sony A9G and next closest by the Sony Z9F.

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So you’re saying a FALD LCD displayed a more impressive star field than a pixel by pixel LG OLED? I’d have to see that to believe it. Every test I’ve ever seen shows OLED, any OLED, produce star fields with the most and brightest stars compared to LCD, any LCD. If it didn’t, I’d have to believe some setting was incorrect.
Starields are basically what OLED does best, bar none. If you want awesome starfields, there is no competition.

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Sony has the upscaling advantage as well imho. Not that the lg is bad but side by side between my c8 and a9g the a9g has an advantage in sharpness and clarity when watching my Verizon FiOS channels. In fact my a9g has the best upscaling out of every 4k tv i ever owned. Not sure if the c9 improved in this department over the c8 though. There are pros and cons to all these TVs so it all depends what you’re looking for.
I'm pretty sure that the Sony still has the advantage in this area but the upscaling on the C9 is supposed to be better than the C8 so the difference might be a little smaller now.
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So you’re saying a FALD LCD displayed a more impressive star field than a pixel by pixel LG OLED? I’d have to see that to believe it. Every test I’ve ever seen shows OLED, any OLED, produce star fields with the most and brightest stars compared to LCD, any LCD. If it didn’t, I’d have to believe some setting was incorrect.
What I'm saying is that the remake had an elevated black starfield as shown on the BVM. Both the LG and the Samsung had black starfields so it wasn't showing what the content was suppose to look like. You're confusing what the tech can do and what the tech is suppose to show.

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Starields are basically what OLED does best, bar none. If you want awesome starfields, there is no competition.
What I'm saying is that 2 displays weren't showing what the mastered content was suppose to look like. It's in the video and you would have seen it if you were there. What I posted above was correct.

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To put things into perspective, this TV Shootout was more technical than previous ones because we were able to view many new test patterns and video footage from Stacy Spears new disk. In addition, we got the sets to look the closest as far as white point and calibration as I've ever seen in my time with these events even before i was doing calibration. We did a perceptual match on all the TVs before calibration. I found we had to do everything twice in order to get it more accurate. I could have don't it a third time to make it even more accurate but as you can image this takes a huge amount of time. It took two full days at the store to complete the multiple matching and calibrations.

The test patterns and new content showed several decisions that Sony and LG made with their picture processing and HDR tone mapping. There was one piece of content where we saw a sunset where the LG tone mapped the sun pretty much out of existence while the BVM and the Sony's showed it perfectly. As I said in a previous post, LG also made some decisions to make their HDR picture a little more saturated and brighter which in my opinion and the judges makes the picture look less accurate than the Sony. Also the LG was having slight problems reproducing certain shades of blue. In some scenes, the blue sky wasn't as accurate as the sony. For Dolby Vision the Sony and the LG use different processes. Sony's DV processing is mostly done by the source and in this case we either the Oppo 203 or the Panasonic UB9000, excellent machines, this is what is called "Source Lead". LG has a separate DV chip in the set. I'm not sure if the slightly better DV picture was because of the DV process and or the DV processing done in the set but Sony generated a slightly better more accurate picture. The ABL on the Sony and the LG OLEDs were pretty much the same. This year we didn't see the Sony dimming out early compared to the LG. We didn't turn on any of the Picture Sharpening processing on the Sony but I can tell you, you can turn on Auto Reality on a low setting and this will make the Sony picture "look" sharper.

All this said, there were a couple of items where the LG was having trouble but the rest were "conscious decisions" by the manufacturers. You can't go wrong with either set especially since they are both closer in price this year.

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post #324 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 12:04 PM
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What I'm saying is that the remake had an elevated black starfield as shown on the BVM. Both the LG and the Samsung had black starfields so it wasn't showing what the content was suppose to look like. You're confusing what the tech can do and what the tech is suppose to show.

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I’m not confused, you just didn’t initially mention that the content had elevated black levels.
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post #325 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 12:08 PM
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Value Electronics 2019 TV Shootout evaluation event June 12, 2019

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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
To put things into perspective, this TV Shootout was more technical than previous ones because we were able to view many new test patterns and video footage from Stacy Spears new disk. In addition, we got the sets to look the closest as far as white point and calibration as I've ever seen in my time with these events even before i was doing calibration. We did a perceptual match on all the TVs before calibration. I found we had to do everything twice in order to get it more accurate. I could have don't it a third time to make it even more accurate but as you can image this takes a huge amount of time. It took two full days at the store to complete the multiple matching and calibrations.



The test patterns and new content showed several decisions that Sony and LG made with their picture processing and HDR tone mapping. There was one piece of content where we saw a sunset where the LG tone mapped the sun pretty much out of existence while the BVM and the Sony's showed it perfectly. As I said in a previous post, LG also made some decisions to make their HDR picture a little more saturated and brighter which in my opinion and the judges makes the picture look less accurate than the Sony. Also the LG was having slight problems reproducing certain shades of blue. In some scenes, the blue sky wasn't as accurate as the sony. For Dolby Vision the Sony and the LG use different processes. Sony's DV processing is mostly done by the source and in this case we either the Oppo 203 or the Panasonic UB9000, excellent machines, this is what is called "Source Lead". LG has a separate DV chip in the set. I'm not sure if the slightly better DV picture was because of the DV process and or the DV processing done in the set but Sony generated a slightly better more accurate picture. The ABL on the Sony and the LG OLEDs were pretty much the same. This year we didn't see the Sony dimming out early compared to the LG. We didn't turn on any of the Picture Sharpening processing on the Sony but I can tell you, you can turn on Auto Reality on a low setting and this will make the Sony picture "look" sharper.



All this said, there were a couple of items where the LG was having trouble but the rest were "conscious decisions" by the manufacturers. You can't go wrong with either set especially since they are both closer in price this year.


In your professional opinion, why did rtings give the a9g a 7.1 for color accuracy? That’s lower than tcl and vizio...lower than incredibly inaccurate displays such as the q9fn. I really can’t wrap my mind around that one at all.
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post #326 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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I’m not confused, you just didn’t initially mention that the content had elevated black levels.
Yea it did.... It surprised everyone there. All I said was that the Samsung and LG didn't show the content for what it was as shown on the BVM and that turn people's defenses on. It's an amazing thing.

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post #327 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
I’m not confused, you just didn’t initially mention that the content had elevated black levels.
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
Yea it did.... It surprised everyone there. All I said was that the Samsung and LG didn't show the content for what it was as shown on the BVM and that turn people's defenses on. It's an amazing thing.

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You left out a relevant detail. No, I did not spend my time watching the entire video, nor did I take a day off to go to New York for that event. So, it's necessary to spell out what the observation actually is, since typically when discussing OLED and starfields the presumption is that outer space is portrayed as absolute black.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sd13 View Post
In your professional opinion, why did rtings give the a9g a 7.1 for color accuracy? That’s lower than vizio...lower than incredibly inaccurate displays such as the q9fn. I really can’t wrap my mind around that one at all.
One thing I've learned is except for Vincent Teoh's reviews, the rest of the reviews should be used as a "guide" and not "gospel".

The judges at the TV Shootout were professional post production people and other professionals who "know" picture quality so they would have a more accurate assessment of what they were looking at. Also we had a calibrated BVM-X300 which a lot of the content we viewed was mastered on and could compare what the "intent" was vs what the tv was reproducing.

At the end of the day, Sony did their "homework" and got pretty much everything right. I'm sure LG will be a very formidable contender next year.
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Starields are basically what OLED does best, bar none. If you want awesome starfields, there is no competition.
How about fireworks?

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post #330 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 12:19 PM
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How about fireworks?
Sure, same idea but I watch a lot more movies with space scenes than with fireworks scenes.

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