Value Electronics 2019 TV Shootout evaluation event June 12, 2019 - Page 12 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #331 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
Yea it did.... It surprised everyone there. All I said was that the Samsung and LG didn't show the content for what it was as shown on the BVM and that turn people's defenses on. It's an amazing thing.

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I’m assuming this wasn’t directed at me. As I said, you initially mentioned star fields without mentioning anything about elevated black levels. So it’s absolutely valid to question, without that information, how any LCD could do better than an OLED. This has nothing to do with defensiveness and everything to do with you not initially mentioning a critical piece of information, elevated black levels in the source. A properly mastered source, with black levels that depict the blackness of space, will always look better on an OLED than an LCD because of pixel level control and no need for zones.

Dang, this sure gets tiring.
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post #332 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
One thing I've learned is except for Vincent Teoh's reviews, the rest of the reviews should be used as a "guide" and not "gospel".

The judges at the TV Shootout were professional post production people and other professionals who "know" picture quality so they would have a more accurate assessment of what they were looking at. Also we had a calibrated BVM-X300 which a lot of the content we viewed was mastered on and could compare what the "intent" was vs what the tv was reproducing.

At the end of the day, Sony did their "homework" and got pretty much everything right. I'm sure LG will be a very formidable contender next year.
I’ll go way out in a limb and say it’s a very formidable contender this year. It amazes me how many reviews just raved about the C9 and now, post shootout, it sounds like a ‘decent’ display according to some. But I’m getting very used to revisionist history. Heck, I’d say in a week some will say the C9 only does B&W, but next year it should do color.
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post #333 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 01:15 PM
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Absolutely. It was a contest of the titans lol. Trust me all I kept hearing is that the sets were so close. The LG got the full calibration including new 3D LUTs, used DeITP error metrics, the works.
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post #334 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 01:20 PM
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^in your opinion how did the LCD sets stack up against the Oled's in terms of HDR?
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post #335 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Cam1977 View Post
^in your opinion how did the LCD sets stack up against the Oled's in terms of HDR?
They played the Sicily scene of Aquaman on a loop. IMO the LCDs held their own.

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post #336 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 01:29 PM
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^I think someone posted a photo woth all sets playing that movie...truly reference material. It would have been nice if they played First Man...that had some challenges scenes for sure.
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post #337 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
You left out a relevant detail. No, I did not spend my time watching the entire video, nor did I take a day off to go to New York for that event. So, it's necessary to spell out what the observation actually is, since typically when discussing OLED and starfields the presumption is that outer space is portrayed as absolute black.
I didn't give any details other than it didn't match the BVM. If you wanted details you just had to ask and I would have supplied them. That could have easily been done instead of how you reacted. I'm easy going and I will supply details when asked. I'm sorry that your time not watching the video is more important than my time.

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post #338 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Cam1977 View Post
^in your opinion how did the LCD sets stack up against the Oled's in terms of HDR?
Yes the LCDs did very well. The Samsung looked very good with a bright picture but still has issues with dark content which were very obvious. The Z9F looked spectacular with bright room content. Dark room was very good too. The oleds have incredible dynamic range which puts the PQ in a different league as long as you are not In a very bright room. Dynamic range gives the picture more depth.
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post #339 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 02:03 PM
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^thanks Jrref, I think sometimes folks on here tend to only think of max nits rather than dynamic range as you mentioned, and dark rooms Oleds simply dominate.
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post #340 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
I’m assuming this wasn’t directed at me. As I said, you initially mentioned star fields without mentioning anything about elevated black levels. So it’s absolutely valid to question, without that information, how any LCD could do better than an OLED. This has nothing to do with defensiveness and everything to do with you not initially mentioning a critical piece of information, elevated black levels in the source. A properly mastered source, with black levels that depict the blackness of space, will always look better on an OLED than an LCD because of pixel level control and no need for zones.



Dang, this sure gets tiring.
Yea no kidding. Just like someone not asking me more details about what was wrong.

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post #341 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
I didn't give any details other than it didn't match the BVM. If you wanted details you just had to ask and I would have supplied them. That could have easily been done instead of how you reacted. I'm easy going and I will supply details when asked. I'm sorry that your time not watching the video is more important than my time.

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Lol it's all good. I'm not the only person offering feedback on this particular point, feel free to take it or leave it.

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post #342 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by bobbyg53 View Post
The competitive grading categories for 2019 were weighted primarily on color rendition (saturation, accuracy, dynamic range) versus many other grading categories in 2018. I believe that you have noted in previous forum comments that Sony has decades of experience focusing its engineering on color science, and as a result they typically have "better" (i.e. more faithful) color rendition than other brands do.
Sony's color rendition is better than lg, but just to nitpick, you used the words 'other brands', and despite me having slightly more preference for sony, i can tell you panasonic still beats sony in this regard. There is a reason why holly studios use panasonic in grading suites. Steven Sonnenfeld, hollyood colorist, is directly involved with panasonic in the R&D of their oled tv's (panasonic contracted him to tune their tv's), so how could you beat that? Color rendition/accuracy and more natural looking skin tones are two areas where pana. beats all other brands.
Both Sony and Panasonic take “professional” color science seriously and explains why the Panasonic UB9000/820 players are soooo far ahead of other Blu Ray players (and most TVs!) with their HDR optimizer. I have the A9G and prefer Netflix streamed from the 820 over Sony’s native Netflix app, despite claims of superior image.
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post #343 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Lol it's all good. I'm not the only person offering feedback on this particular point, feel free to take it or leave it.
I know that, and again I didn't go into any details as to why and I guess I should have. My response was in passing thru as I'm busy after being away from home for a couple days. It's a 5 hour road trip for me, 2 days off from work and it's on my time. I can provide plenty of detail I'm sure and I would love to provide any when asked. It's very simple. Many don't believe what I say because I like LCDs more than OLEDs so that alone shrugs people away and another reason I'm short to the point when I post now.

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post #344 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 02:15 PM
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^its one thing to be "short" and another to actually provide details, which was the point.

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post #345 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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^its one thing to be "short" and another to actually provide details, which was the point.
And you like others aren't getting my point. If you want details just ask.

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post #346 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 02:24 PM
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^no, when the question was asked you provided the answer without going into detail which was the elevated blacks for that particular scene which caused the confusion. Its all good though showman94...you were not the only there.
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post #347 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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^no, when the question was asked you provided the answer without going into detail which was the elevated blacks for that particular scene. Its all good though showman94...you were not the only there.
Ken asked and I answered giving the details about the source having elevated blacks.... How hard is this. Then people just keep going on and on how I should have put that detail in the first place.

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post #348 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 02:33 PM
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^exaclty how hard is this...in your intial response you didnt mention that it had elevated blacks, when Ken responded then you mentioned it, again maybe if you were to say it the first time it might have avoided confusion, as Oleds no matter the brand will definitely produce a more accurate star field than an LCD.
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post #349 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 02:35 PM
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^exaclty how hard is this...where did you mention Elevated blacks? I believe you then replied that the scene had elevated blacks. Its all good showman94.
Ten bucks says director's intent is for outer space to be totally black behind the stars. Which is to say, director's intent and faithful to the source are not always 100% the same. Really surprised to hear about elevated black levels in 2001, is it a mistake or intentional? Either way, disappointing. Can't ask Kubrick since he's dead.
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post #350 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Cam1977 View Post
^exaclty how hard is this...in your intial response you didnt mention that it had elevated blacks, when Ken responded then you mentioned it, again maybe if you were to say it the first time it might have avoided confusion, as Oleds no matter the brand will definitely produce a more accurate star field than an LCD.
My initial response was me asking if it was that specific scene. Then when questioned if I thought the fald produced a better starfield I said that the scene was elevated and the Samsung and LG did not show the elevated starfield.

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post #351 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 02:43 PM
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Absolutely. It was a contest of the titans lol. Trust me all I kept hearing is that the sets were so close. The LG got the full calibration including new 3D LUTs, used DeITP error metrics, the works.

LGs engineers attended the event. While I won’t hold my breath perhaps we will get firmware that will finesse the PQ towards accuracy. LG is good about addressing issues.
Did you have any discussions with them?
How did they feel they performed against Sony?




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post #352 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Ten bucks says director's intent is for outer space to be totally black behind the stars. Which is to say, director's intent and faithful to the source are not always 100% the same. Really surprised to hear about elevated black levels in 2001, is it a mistake or intentional? Either way, disappointing. Can't ask Kubrick since he's dead.

the starfield was very elevated on the mastering monitor. the LG crushed the elevation into almost total black. both Sony's looked perfectly elevated to the monitor while the Samsung was somewhere in between. Sparechanges live stream had a perfect view of all 5 monitors during this specific scene.

there was another moving starfield though were the oleds matched the BVM while the Q90 crushed the stars but to everyone's surprise the Z9F crushed the stars worse than the Q90r, according to someone i know that was in attendance.
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post #353 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Ten bucks says director's intent is for outer space to be totally black behind the stars. Which is to say, director's intent and faithful to the source are not always 100% the same. Really surprised to hear about elevated black levels in 2001, is it a mistake or intentional? Either way, disappointing. Can't ask Kubrick since he's dead.
I'll take that 10 and raise you 20.

I agree, it's hard to believe you spend that much effort depicting deep space scenes and then portray space as a deep gray. Hey, it wouldn't be the first time mistakes were made in mastering. Elevated black levels certainly do occur. This would be one time a display's mishandling of a scene resulted in a better outcome. Of course it's also odd that we never heard about this before. I'd offer another possibility that would be deemed by some to be heresy: Perhaps the untouchable Sony reference monitor wasn't actually properly calibrated (mistakes have been made at shootouts) and was a click or two off. I'll stand back to avoid the shrapnel.
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post #354 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post

there was another moving starfield though were the oleds matched the BVM while the Q90 crushed the stars but to everyone's surprise the Z9F crushed the stars worse than the Q90r, according to someone i know that was in attendance.
More like the Z9F's elevated blacks hid the Stars.

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You realize that there’s plenty of games at 4k/60 hdr right now? There will absolutely be a push for 4k/120, it’s going to be achievable.

Hell wasn't microsoft just saying this week they can pump out 8k/30 on Scarlett console?

It happens every generation you people always fall for the gimmicks, you will not see any game on the next generation of consoles doing native 4k and 120fps, games will be targeting native 4k at a locked 60fps, dont fall for the marketing they did say its capable of 120fps which is technically true but not at native 4k.
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Value Electronics 2019 TV Shootout evaluation event June 12, 2019

Rtings review of the A9G is out and they gave the nod to the C9 as a better over all TV.

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/a9g-oled

Very interesting...
“The LG C9 OLED is slightly better than the Sony A9G. The LG has a lower input lag, which is great for gamers, and supports HDMI Forum VRR for nearly tear-free gaming. The C9 can also get brighter in SDR which, however, is not that noticeable and could be due to panel variance.”


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^your gonna get ax murdered for that post!
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Rtings review of the A9G is out and they gave the nod to the C9 as a better over all TV.

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/a9g-oled

Very interesting...
“The LG C9 OLED is slightly better than the Sony A9G. The LG has a lower input lag, which is great for gamers, and supports HDMI Forum VRR for nearly tear-free gaming. The C9 can also get brighter in SDR which, however, is not that noticeable and could be due to panel variance.”


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Well now, that can't possibly be right.
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post #359 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 02:58 PM
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Absolutely. It was a contest of the titans lol. Trust me all I kept hearing is that the sets were so close. The LG got the full calibration including new 3D LUTs, used DeITP error metrics, the works.
Actually new firmware is available to do just that and we loaded it on the set at the shootout. So the latest and greatest was loaded.
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post #360 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 03:01 PM
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Value Electronics 2019 TV Shootout evaluation event June 12, 2019

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Well now, that can't possibly be right.


Impossible!

Those poor A9G owners.
“The Sony A9G has an impressive wide color gamut. It is slightly worse than last year's A9F and most of the other OLED TVs we've tested.”

Full disclosure my tone is in JEST!
I just needed to blow off some steam.

*Moral of the story 2019 is a good year for OLED.



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djoberg and Cam1977 like this.

LG65C9, XBOX ONE X, PS4PRO, APPLE 4K, SONY STRDN1070, TAKE CLASSIC 5.1

Last edited by helvetica bold; 06-14-2019 at 03:06 PM.
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Closed Thread OLED Technology and Flat Panels General

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