Value Electronics 2019 TV Shootout evaluation event June 12, 2019 - Page 13 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #361 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
Rtings review of the A9G is out and they gave the nod to the C9 as a better over all TV.

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/a9g-oled

Very interesting...
“The LG C9 OLED is slightly better than the Sony A9G. The LG has a lower input lag, which is great for gamers, and supports HDMI Forum VRR for nearly tear-free gaming. The C9 can also get brighter in SDR which, however, is not that noticeable and could be due to panel variance.”


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According to rtings the c8 is brighter than the c9 in the hdr windows that matter the most. Maybe everyone with a c9 should lug their set back to Best Buy for a c8? They also rated the e8 as having lower brightness than the c8.
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post #362 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 03:07 PM
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^ So they're saying that the Sony's color gamut is slightly worse than it was last year? I could more easily accept that it's slightly worse than the other OLEDs they tested (I do believe different calibrators can get different results), but worse than last year? That's odd.

I think it's always prudent to read a variety of professional reviews from trusted sources and compile that info with the results from different shootouts. Using just one point of information is not always the best approach.
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post #363 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 03:07 PM
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TIL the LG C9 should be used as a mastering display.
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post #364 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
Impossible!

Those poor A9G owners.
“The Sony A9G has an impressive wide color gamut. It is slightly worse than last year's A9F and most of the other OLED TVs we've tested.”

Full disclosure my tone is in JEST!
I just needed to blow off some steam.

*Moral of the story 2019 is a good year for OLED.



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Lugging my a9g back to Best Buy as we speak. Exchanging for the more accurate $500 tcl
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post #365 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 03:11 PM
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TIL the LG C9 should be used as a mastering display.

Maybe the BVM has been wrong all along! Perhaps the C9 is the correct one?

Sorry I’m on a 3 hour bus trip so
I’m feeling salty.


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post #366 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
Maybe the BVM has been wrong all along! Perhaps the C9 is the correct one?

Sorry I’m on a 3 hour bus trip so
I’m feeling salty.


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Right..... The mastering was wrong not the c9.
What a POS that 42k OLED mastering monitor is....

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post #367 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 03:40 PM
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Lol its like hearding cats in here sometimes🤣
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post #368 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
Impossible!

Those poor A9G owners.
“The Sony A9G has an impressive wide color gamut. It is slightly worse than last year's A9F and most of the other OLED TVs we've tested.”

Full disclosure my tone is in JEST!
I just needed to blow off some steam.

*Moral of the story 2019 is a good year for OLED.
Two factors to consider: Panel lottery and the amount of calibration done.

From the discussions here it sounds like the calibrators at VE spent a lot more time calibrating the sets than normal calibrators would do. Essentially calibrating twice and really could have done a third time to try to reach the ultimate calibration.

Rtings could have simply had an easier time calibrating the C9 vs the A9G giving them the performance they published. Perhaps the person(s) that did the VE calibrations could chime in or comment about how hard each set was to calibrate and how accurate they measured before calibration.

Essentially we are comparing sticking a meter on a display and going once through a calibration with a multipass calibration trying to match another monitor as closely as possible. Two different goals and could yield two different results.
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post #369 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by mike123abc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
Impossible!

Those poor A9G owners.
“The Sony A9G has an impressive wide color gamut. It is slightly worse than last year's A9F and most of the other OLED TVs we've tested.”

Full disclosure my tone is in JEST!
I just needed to blow off some steam.

*Moral of the story 2019 is a good year for OLED.
Two factors to consider: Panel lottery and the amount of calibration done.

From the discussions here it sounds like the calibrators at VE spent a lot more time calibrating the sets than normal calibrators would do. Essentially calibrating twice and really could have done a third time to try to reach the ultimate calibration.

Rtings could have simply had an easier time calibrating the C9 vs the A9G giving them the performance they published. Perhaps the person(s) that did the VE calibrations could chime in or comment about how hard each set was to calibrate and how accurate they measured before calibration.

Essentially we are comparing sticking a meter on a display and going once through a calibration with a multipass calibration trying to match another monitor as closely as possible. Two different goals and could yield two different results.
I calibrated all the sets except the Samsung. When I said we had to do multiple passes it was to get the perceptual white point match as perfect as possible. Other than that the calibration is the same as you get when you have your set calibrated at VE.

I used CalMAN autocal with a manual tweak to calibrate all the sets except the Samsung. We created new 3D LUTs for LG SDR, Calibrated HDR and Dolby Vision. All the results were very typical with no anomalies.

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post #370 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I calibrated all the sets except the Samsung. When I said we had to do multiple passes it was to get the perceptual white point match as perfect as possible. Other than that the calibration is the same as you get when you have your set calibrated at VE.

I used CalMAN autocal with a manual tweak to calibrate all the sets except the Samsung. We created new 3D LUTs for LG SDR, Calibrated HDR and Dolby Vision. All the results were very typical with no anomalies.
So, how was the calibration of the C9 vs the A9G for this shootout? Would you consider them the same amount of effort, was one easier, etc? Which was more accurate out of the box? White balance calibration on C9 is reported at 22 points vs 10 points on A9G did that make a difference?

Essentially I guess the question I am asking in the end is would the random average calibrator be able to get them as good as what the shootout used, or did it take more expert effort in the manual tweaks that made all the difference?
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post #371 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I calibrated all the sets except the Samsung. When I said we had to do multiple passes it was to get the perceptual white point match as perfect as possible. Other than that the calibration is the same as you get when you have your set calibrated at VE.

I used CalMAN autocal with a manual tweak to calibrate all the sets except the Samsung. We created new 3D LUTs for LG SDR, Calibrated HDR and Dolby Vision. All the results were very typical with no anomalies.
So, how was the calibration of the C9 vs the A9G for this shootout? Would you consider them the same amount of effort, was one easier, etc? Which was more accurate out of the box? White balance calibration on C9 is reported at 22 points vs 10 points on A9G did that make a difference?

Essentially I guess the question I am asking in the end is would the random average calibrator be able to get them as good as what the shootout used, or did it take more expert effort in the manual tweaks that made all the difference?
Both the Sony’s and the LGs have a 23 point gray scale. Although the LG has more sophisticated capabilities the end result is pretty much the same with the LG being a little more accurate. Any professional calibrator with reference equipment would be able to get the same results based on their experience. The Samsung has a 20 pt and CMS controls as well. Kevin has a lot of experience with the Samsung so he focused on that set since it can be pretty challenging to calibrate.
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post #372 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 06:21 PM - Thread Starter
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This would look awesome on every TV at the shootout!

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post #373 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Both the Sony’s and the LGs have a 23 point gray scale. Although the LG has more sophisticated capabilities the end result is pretty much the same with the LG being a little more accurate. Any professional calibrator with reference equipment would be able to get the same results based on their experience. The Samsung has a 20 pt and CMS controls as well. Kevin has a lot of experience with the Samsung so he focused on that set since it can be pretty challenging to calibrate.
Does that mean pro's do not need to use a alternative white point? Or do they to get these OLEDs accurate? And how accurate is calibration on this years Sony OLED compared to last years Sony OLED/ thanks.
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post #374 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 07:32 PM
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Does that mean pro's do not need to use a alternative white point? Or do they to get these OLEDs accurate? And how accurate is calibration on this years Sony OLED compared to last years Sony OLED/ thanks.
The alternate white point from the perceptual match is used to make the whites on the LCDs and the OLEDs match the reference monitor. This needs to be done because you eyes see differently for each different panel technology due to their different spectral distribution.
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post #375 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 07:50 PM
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Right..... The mastering was wrong not the c9.
What a POS that 42k OLED mastering monitor is....

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Did you read the comments? Nobody was suggesting the BVM is a bad reference, quite the contrary, but it is possible its calibration could have been slightly off. Mistakes have been made in shootouts and it was only put out there as a possibility, not a likelihood.
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post #376 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Both the Sony’s and the LGs have a 23 point gray scale. Although the LG has more sophisticated capabilities the end result is pretty much the same with the LG being a little more accurate. Any professional calibrator with reference equipment would be able to get the same results based on their experience. The Samsung has a 20 pt and CMS controls as well. Kevin has a lot of experience with the Samsung so he focused on that set since it can be pretty challenging to calibrate.
Then John, can you explain why the panel judged the Sony as being slightly more accurate?
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post #377 of 428 Old 06-14-2019, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Did you read the comments? Nobody was suggesting the BVM is a bad reference, quite the contrary, but it is possible its calibration could have been slightly off. Mistakes have been made in shootouts and it was only put out there as a possibility, not a likelihood.
Of course I did, it was sarcasm.

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post #378 of 428 Old 06-15-2019, 03:12 AM
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Then John, can you explain why the panel judged the Sony as being slightly more accurate?
I’m assuming because even though the LG was more accurate to calibrate, the Sony was still more accurate than the C9 when compared to the BVM monitor?
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post #379 of 428 Old 06-15-2019, 05:15 AM
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I’m assuming because even though the LG was more accurate to calibrate, the Sony was still more accurate than the C9 when compared to the BVM monitor?
That’s possible I’m sure, but I’d like to hear it anyway.

Here’s another question. The white points were altered on the displays to match the ‘reference monitor’ whose white point is different. Keep in mind this was the first time this had been done in these shootouts. If a consumer display is designed to display a particular white point, and that white point is altered beyond what the manufacturer had designed for, could that not impact the resulting accuracy? Since this is the first time this was done, I don’t think it’s an offbeat question to ask.

Then, we look at another review where the white point was not changed (rtings), and they come with different findings. So there we have at least two variables, the first being they stuck with the C9’s originally intended white point and two, a different calibrator did the work.

I’m not impugning the work of anyone, but these are legitimate variables that can impact the outcomes.

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post #380 of 428 Old 06-15-2019, 05:42 AM
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That’s possible I’m sure, but I’d like to hear it anyway.



Here’s another question. The white points were altered on the displays to match the ‘reference monitor’ whose white point is different. Keep in mind this was the first time this had been done in these shootouts. If a consumer display is designed to display a particular white point, and that white point is altered beyond what the manufacturer had designed for, could that not impact the resulting accuracy? Since this is the first time this was done, I don’t think it’s an offbeat question to ask.



Then, we look at another review where the white point was not changed (rtings), and they come with different findings. So there we have at least two variables, the first being they stuck with the C9’s originally intended white point and two, a different calibrator did the work.



I’m not impugning the work of anyone, but these are legitimate variables that can impact the outcomes.
Even if this is the case then isnt the altered white point the one that studios use to post production edits in all the movies because they use the BVM?
For me the altered white point is what the creator and studio indent and is the correct procedure imo and congrats to VE for this decision.
@jrref can you please provide the white point numbers? I knew them but i don't seem to find them
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post #381 of 428 Old 06-15-2019, 05:46 AM
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I only stuck around for the first half because I had to run to the airport, but wanted to chime in with what I noticed on the Samsung. Kevin mentioned that he lowered the contrast to make the EOTF track the reference curve better, and when I asked he said he was using 1000 nits MaxCLL as the HDR metadata when doing this. As we moved back and forth on movie clips on the Kaleidescape, movies that had 4000 nits metadata (Mad Max, Aquaman) had a visible level of over-saturation and the image was overall darker. Since 1000 nits content looked much better, I have to imagine that this is due to how the Samsung is handling higher nit content while having the contrast lowered to improve the 1000 nits EOTF. But given what I saw there, I'd have put the Samsung last by a good margin on those films. Of course, this would be a moot point if Samsung followed the EOTF perfectly but the Q9 and Q90 have been too bright with no good way to correct it.

The Sony and LG OLEDs were also very close in competition here. On certain test patterns, they just made the LCDs look bad, but on most real-world content the differences were far smaller.

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post #382 of 428 Old 06-15-2019, 05:56 AM
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That’s possible I’m sure, but I’d like to hear it anyway.

Here’s another question. The white points were altered on the displays to match the ‘reference monitor’ whose white point is different. Keep in mind this was the first time this had been done in these shootouts. If a consumer display is designed to display a particular white point, and that white point is altered beyond what the manufacturer had designed for, could that not impact the resulting accuracy? Since this is the first time this was done, I don’t think it’s an offbeat question to ask.

Then, we look at another review where the white point was not changed (rtings), and they come with different findings. So there we have at least two variables, the first being they stuck with the C9’s originally intended white point and two, a different calibrator did the work.

I’m not impugning the work of anyone, but these are legitimate variables that can impact the outcomes.
>>The white points were altered on the displays to match the ‘reference monitor’ whose white point is different. Keep in mind this was the first time this had been done in these shootouts?
No it was also done at the last TV Shootout and Vincent Teoh uses the technique as you can see in one of his latest video reviews of C9 vs the Q90R.

>>If a consumer display is designed to display a particular white point, and that white point is altered beyond what the manufacturer had designed for, could that not impact the resulting accuracy?
True but the perceptual match white point is only a small movement from D65. It's not any more deviation from D65 than you would have using an alternate white point that some well known experienced professional calibrator's sometimes recommend.

As far as the calibration of the BVM-x300, it's a $30,000 monitor and has an extremely accurate calibration. It was calibrated from Sony, which we verified was set to the modified Judd white point because it uses a RGB OLED panel. Even in the unlikely possibility that it was slightly off, every set was perceptually matched to that reference so it wouldn't make any difference.

Once the perceptual match is done and the set is calibrated to it's matched white point, then the TVs capability to display colors, etc, is on a level playing field and can be done properly.

As far as calibration, we used two sets of reference equipment to verify accuracy.

At the last TV Shootout, Tyler Pruitt, Dave Abrams and my self did the match and this year Kevin Miller and I did the match so as you can see well known, respected professional calibrators with years of experience were involved both times and of course Vincent Teoh uses the same technique when comparing TVs with different panel technologies. I hope this explanation on how things were done demonstrates the attention to detail and accuracy so all the sets were on a level playing field for comparison.

One last thing that needs to be mentioned, just because a TV is calibrated and the scans look good with very low errors doesn't mean that every color it tries to reproduce or all content is decoded correctly which is why in this TV Shootout, many of the test patterns and content looked identical on both OLEDs but in some cases it did not. So just because the LGC9 had slightly more accurate CalMAN scans meaning less errors in some areas doesn't mean it's going to reproduce everything 100% accurately. Also most of the better accuracy shown in the scans is way below what the human eye can perceive anyway.
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post #383 of 428 Old 06-15-2019, 06:03 AM
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Even if this is the case then isnt the altered white point the one that studios use to post production edits in all the movies because they use the BVM?
For me the altered white point is what the creator and studio indent and is the correct procedure imo and congrats to VE for this decision.
@jrref can you please provide the white point numbers? I knew them but i don't seem to find them
You are correct. We haven't posted the scans and or the white points but Scott Wilkinson is writing a review of the TV Shootout with lots of information. I can tell you all the calibration scans were very typical of what I see every day calibrating these sets with no anomalies. Once Scott's review is out if there are still more questions i'll post a few scans with more technical detail to further drive the points I've been making home.

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post #384 of 428 Old 06-15-2019, 06:50 AM
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One thing I noticed and it might have been my eyes, on the ansi checkerboard pattern the A9G appears to have better whites where the C9 looked slightly grey.


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post #385 of 428 Old 06-15-2019, 06:53 AM
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>>The white points were altered on the displays to match the ‘reference monitor’ whose white point is different. Keep in mind this was the first time this had been done in these shootouts?
No it was also done at the last TV Shootout and Vincent Teoh uses the technique as you can see in one of his latest video reviews of C9 vs the Q90R.

>>If a consumer display is designed to display a particular white point, and that white point is altered beyond what the manufacturer had designed for, could that not impact the resulting accuracy?
True but the perceptual match white point is only a small movement from D65. It's not any more deviation from D65 than you would have using an alternate white point that some well known experienced professional calibrator's sometimes recommend.

As far as the calibration of the BVM-x300, it's a $30,000 monitor and has an extremely accurate calibration. It was calibrated from Sony, which we verified was set to the modified Judd white point because it uses a RGB OLED panel. Even in the unlikely possibility that it was slightly off, every set was perceptually matched to that reference so it wouldn't make any difference.

Once the perceptual match is done and the set is calibrated to it's matched white point, then the TVs capability to display colors, etc, is on a level playing field and can be done properly.

As far as calibration, we used two sets of reference equipment to verify accuracy.

At the last TV Shootout, Tyler Pruitt, Dave Abrams and my self did the match and this year Kevin Miller and I did the match so as you can see well known, respected professional calibrators with years of experience were involved both times and of course Vincent Teoh uses the same technique when comparing TVs with different panel technologies. I hope this explanation on how things were done demonstrates the attention to detail and accuracy so all the sets were on a level playing field for comparison.

One last thing that needs to be mentioned, just because a TV is calibrated and the scans look good with very low errors doesn't mean that every color it tries to reproduce or all content is decoded correctly which is why in this TV Shootout, many of the test patterns and content looked identical on both OLEDs but in some cases it did not. So just because the LGC9 had slightly more accurate CalMAN scans meaning less errors in some areas doesn't mean it's going to reproduce everything 100% accurately. Also most of the better accuracy shown in the scans is way below what the human eye can perceive anyway.
Well maybe yes, maybe no. I say that in regards to the 2001 clip that displayed differently on one LCD and one OLED where the black of space was black on 2 sets and slightly elevated on the other 2. The BVM also showed space as a dark gray, leading everyone to assume that was how the video was mastered. But I found it strange that nobody had ever heard of 2001 being mastered with elevated black levels (makes me want to get a copy of this out of curiosity). The fact that we hadn't heard this before made me wonder if the BVM was incorrectly displaying, in this case, blacks as dark gray. Obviously that may not be the case and it may have been doing exactly what was encoded on the video. But do we know for sure given the depiction of space in this well known video surprised everyone?

Thanks for the explanation John.

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post #386 of 428 Old 06-15-2019, 07:01 AM
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The alternate white point from the perceptual match is used to make the whites on the LCDs and the OLEDs match the reference monitor. This needs to be done because you eyes see differently for each different panel technology due to their different spectral distribution.
We were told that for a accurate image true to the source one hires a pro and everything will be allright. The source is a RGB OLED were a OLED TV seems to need alternate white point to get close (something which very few pro's in the field use i guess). Why even hire a pro when he will not bring the TV closest to reference?

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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
We were told that for a accurate image true to the source one hires a pro and everything will be allright. The source is a RGB OLED were a OLED TV seems to need alternate white point to get close (something which very few pro's in the field use i guess). Why even hire a pro when he will not bring the TV closest to reference?
You are being disingenuous and I think I smell a bit of trolling.

The pros here have been courteous to everyone and I can't think of any one of them or any professional reviewer who have said that you must hire a pro to get good results. Calman and a meter will give most consumers an improvement in PQ over what these sets can do out of the box. However, Calman and a meter still can't do what a professional with hundreds or thousands of hours of experience calibrating can pull off when using their professional tools and experience to adjust a television.
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So clear up some confusion, the perceptual match is only done when you are comparing TVs side by side of different panel technologies. When a professional calibrator calibrates your set, there is no need to do this and they usually set the white point to D65. Some professional calibrators like to use an alternate white point that can more closely match the reference monitor but that's usually option you can do.

As far as the 2001 space clip that was used, even if there was an issue with the processing of this content, it didn't make or break any one set. The judges looked at many aspects across multiple test patterns and content to make their decisions.

After reading all the posts this morning it appears that some are stretching to find fault in the process to invalidate or cast a shadow on the results. I can assure you that although no one process is 100%, everything was done "by the book" with an incredible attention to detail to insure the fairest most accurate results. I know there was some question with the Samsung but that will be further explained in Scott's article. If you take a step back you will see that not only did we have experienced professional calibrators but Joel Silver of the ISF and all the professional post production judges including Dave MacKenzie were there viewing the sets and if something was not correct it would have been called out. After the voting some of the experts were mentioning how well the sets were matching, something that is not always achieved in an event like this.

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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Well maybe yes, maybe no. I say that in regards to the 2001 clip that displayed differently on one LCD and one OLED where the black of space was black on 2 sets and slightly elevated on the other 2. The BVM also showed space as a dark gray, leading everyone to assume that was how the video was mastered. But I found it strange that nobody had ever heard of 2001 being mastered with elevated black levels (makes me want to get a copy of this out of curiosity). The fact that we hadn't heard this before made me wonder if the BVM was incorrectly displaying, in this case, blacks as dark gray. Obviously that may not be the case and it may have been doing exactly what was encoded on the video. But do we know for sure given the depiction of space in this well known video surprised everyone?



Thanks for the explanation John.
It's definitely in the master for that specific scene. Another space scene test pattern was displayed from the Spears and Munsil test disc and the OLEDs along with the BVM displayed it perfectly. The Samsung crushed it some at first as it faded into it but then looked nice and the Z9F had a grayish black to it which gave it a faded starfield.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2
You are being disingenuous and I think I smell a bit of trolling.
The pros here have been courteous to everyone and I can't think of any one of them or any professional reviewer who have said that you must hire a pro to get good results.
That is not what my post is about.

To be clear on this, me seeing a Shootout. Then me buying such TV getting it calibrated by a pro wanting the image quality being the same or very close as being presented on the Shootout. It looks to me like with stuff like alternate white point etc...which most pro's likely will not use...at least not where i live...that will not happen.
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