Value Electronics 2019 TV Shootout evaluation event June 12, 2019 - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 428 Old 05-31-2019, 08:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mbroadus View Post
@shoman94 - I apologize for my incoherent drivel earlier, I was refereeing a group of 4 year olds.

Anyway...the Sony 65A9G easily fits in my budget but I would really like to have the 77A9G. My viewing is mostly in the evening with minimal light, except weekend football, hockey, soccer and baseball games during the day. I do a little gaming, probably 4-6 hours at a time on a Friday afternoon. I’m concerned about the Z9F, and most LEDs, because I’ve heard that they are extremely bright and most of my watching is in the evening. I have a guy that calibrates my Panny and he sets up a day and night mode for me, is this possible or is there a similar setting on the Z9F? Thanks


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Yes you can setup the Z9F the same way. Some gives us many settings that cater to the different conditions. I personally only watch movies in the dark. I light my room with the recommended 5 nits. There are pros and cons with many sets and the different technologies.

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
Sony XBR-75Z9F, Vizio P75-C1, Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One(X), Wii, NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, FireTV 4K-HDR, HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
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post #62 of 428 Old 05-31-2019, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
If they have time i'll give an updated presentation of OOTB calibration and ICtCp on these new 2019 sets at the shootout which will document what is typically seen.
ICtCp would hurt some feelings.

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post #63 of 428 Old 06-01-2019, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
Yes you can setup the Z9F the same way. Some gives us many settings that cater to the different conditions. I personally only watch movies in the dark. I light my room with the recommended 5 nits. There are pros and cons with many sets and the different technologies.

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Are you saying that Sony has many different setting on the Z9F for different room conditions? Thanks


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post #64 of 428 Old 06-01-2019, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by mbroadus View Post
Are you saying that Sony has many different setting on the Z9F for different room conditions? Thanks


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Many brands have different settings for different viewing conditions. BTW, the Z9F has terrible reflection handling in a bright room...

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post #65 of 428 Old 06-01-2019, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by New_to_4K View Post
Many brands have different settings for different viewing conditions. BTW, the Z9F has terrible reflection handling in a bright room...
I have 4 windows and 2 skylights in my living room. Daytime viewing is not an issue. Like any room setup and TV, where the reflections are in relation to the TV affects how the tv handles them. You statement is very one sided and sounds like a product bashing. Please refrain from that here.

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Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
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post #66 of 428 Old 06-01-2019, 08:31 AM
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I wish they include Sony X950G 85 inch
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post #67 of 428 Old 06-01-2019, 10:41 AM
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Value Electronics 2019 TV Shootout evaluation event June 12, 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by New_to_4K View Post
Many brands have different settings for different viewing conditions. BTW, the Z9F has terrible reflection handling in a bright room...

Yes, I know there is standard, home theater, cinema mode, etc settings. I was referring to sub mode settings.

Regarding reflections, RTINGS.com says, “Excellent reflection handling, but slightly worse than the Z9D. There should be no issues using this TV in a very bright room. Interestingly, reflections are smeared horizontally on this screen more than any other TV we've tested. This may be a result of the new optical layer, which you can see in the pixels photo here. Even bright lights which are far off the the side of the TV can be seen smeared horizontally when the TV is off.”

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/z9f

I’m more concerned about the low contrast ratio.

Anyway, let’s get back on topic of the shootout!


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post #68 of 428 Old 06-01-2019, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbroadus View Post
Yes, I know there is standard, home theater, cinema mode, etc settings. I was referring to sub mode settings.

Regarding reflections, RTINGS.com says, “Excellent reflection handling, but slightly worse than the Z9D. There should be no issues using this TV in a very bright room. Interestingly, reflections are smeared horizontally on this screen more than any other TV we've tested. This may be a result of the new optical layer, which you can see in the pixels photo here. Even bright lights which are far off the the side of the TV can be seen smeared horizontally when the TV is off.”

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/z9f

I’m more concerned about the low contrast ratio.

Anyway, let’s get back on topic of the shootout!


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Yes like most Sony's..... ACE which helps a lot with low APL scenes. Local dimming, XDR among others.

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Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
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post #69 of 428 Old 06-01-2019, 02:54 PM
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Whats the best way to sign up to attend, register for CE Week? Before it was just an email to Robert.

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post #70 of 428 Old 06-01-2019, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kensingtonwick View Post
Hell yes! Quantum X!


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Quote:
Originally Posted by New_to_4K View Post
Why? Samsung positioned Q90 against OLED, it is only fair if it is compared against OLED.

Should include Quantum X in the shootout too.
Here is a response from Robert on the Vizio PX65-Q. I like the vetting process and retail purchasing of the displays that will be in the shootout.

CE Week is discussing the TV Shootout with them and from my latest update no decision has been reached yet.  I’ll  get back to you when I find out more.  


I made the decisions on the TVs that are included so far, but I do not know anyone at Vizio so it’s in the hands of CE Week and Vizio.  One item I would not permit is if they want to supply the sample as we do not accept samples from any manufacturer so they would have to agree on me buying the TV from Best Buy or another retailer so we have all randomly selected TVs that are factory sealed and not cherry picked by anyone.


We also have a pre-qualification process to confirm that any TV put in the event is of a reasonable performance level as it’s no fun embarrassing any manufacturer.  Just one year I licensed the TV Shootout and an entry level, edge lit tv was supplied by the manufacturer and not aged to be stable or set-up properly to have their TV in the event. It was the stupidest thing to me and it brought down the value and quality of the event.  I believe Vizio’s Quantium -X is not in that category, but I’d like to take a quick look at any TV that will be considered before saying ok.  This event is at comparison of the best of the best.




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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
Sony XBR-75Z9F, Vizio P75-C1, Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One(X), Wii, NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, FireTV 4K-HDR, HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+

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post #71 of 428 Old 06-01-2019, 04:13 PM
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Considering the fact, the PQ-X doesn't have any wide angle viewing enhancements. Is being reported, having banding and posterization issues, similar to the 2018 PQ. May turn out being an embarrassing moment for Vizio.

The specs are great 75" has 480 zones, 3000 nits of peak brightness, 97% of P3 gamut and 80% of Rec.2020.

Still not really, enough to compete with the Z9F, Q90R, E9.

I would like to see Dolby Vision and HDR10+ comparisons. With a push for 12 bit panels or 10 bit with dithering (FRC).

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post #72 of 428 Old 06-02-2019, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
so sad
Science is sad?
Please, explain how a 2019 LG OLED with{or without the BFI they promised) is better than a CRT or Kuro Plasma when it comes to motion ?
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post #73 of 428 Old 06-02-2019, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
I read this Sony OLED review...it stated ''i have not seen 24fps motion like that in a while''...so forget about LG having better motion than Sony for a while...
Which review was that? I feel Sony OLEDs have the best presentation of 24fps material with their 48Hz BFI mode (which no other OLED manufacturer offers AFAIK) and the closest to what film is supposed to look like. I haven't seen film look this cinematic since watching Blu-ray on the Kuro. Yes, there is some flicker in very bright scenes, but I've gotten used to it.

The standard 5:5 playback may not have judder, but it never looks particularly "filmic" either.

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post #74 of 428 Old 06-02-2019, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Micolash View Post
Which review was that? I feel Sony OLEDs have the best presentation of 24fps material with their 48Hz BFI mode (which no other OLED manufacturer offers AFAIK) and the closest to what film is supposed to look like. I haven't seen film look this cinematic since watching Blu-ray on the Kuro. Yes, there is some flicker in very bright scenes, but I've gotten used to it.

The standard 5:5 playback may not have judder, but it never looks particularly "filmic" either.
That was a avforums review. It was 24fps judder related btw.


motion handling
'' the way the AF8 handles 24fps material without introducing judder is amongst the best we have seen for some time.''
https://www.avforums.com/review/sony...8-review.14562
Quote:
Originally Posted by locomo
Science is sad?
Please, explain how a 2019 LG OLED with{or without the BFI they promised) is better than a CRT or Kuro Plasma when it comes to motion ?
What i mean is that it is sad that they have not seen good 24fps motion (without introducing judder) in a while. Been reading about OLED and its problems with low frame rate, folks say it is Sample&Hold combined with OLEDs fast response time related . Shurely motion on Plasma and CRT is excellent but those are no longer being reviewed.

Thought about it the other day. Since we have several TV techs now reviewers should use that to demonstrate strength and weaknesses of reviewed TVs, that will put things in perspective.
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post #75 of 428 Old 06-02-2019, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
Whats the best way to sign up to attend, register for CE Week? Before it was just an email to Robert.

Robert can register anyone who wants to attend the TV Shootout with an all access pass to everything at CE Week, including the panel discussions.  He has a special link that gets them a VIP badge and there is no charge.  The badges will be pre-printed and available for p/u at the registration desk.


The best method is by emailing him, rzohn at valueelectronics dot com and put in the subject line TV Shootout registration request.


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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
Sony XBR-75Z9F, Vizio P75-C1, Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One(X), Wii, NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, FireTV 4K-HDR, HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+

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post #76 of 428 Old 06-02-2019, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
That was a avforums review. It was 24fps judder related btw.


motion handling
'' the way the AF8 handles 24fps material without introducing judder is amongst the best we have seen for some time.''
https://www.avforums.com/review/sony...8-review.14562

What i mean is that it is sad that they have not seen good 24fps motion (without introducing judder) in a while. Been reading about OLED and its problems with low frame rate, folks say it is Sample&Hold combined with OLEDs fast response time related . Shurely motion on Plasma and CRT is excellent but those are no longer being reviewed.

Thought about it the other day. Since we have several TV techs now reviewers should use that to demonstrate strength and weaknesses of reviewed TVs, that will put things in perspective.
I don't think it's that simple. CRT and plasma flash each frame rather than displaying the entire frame at once before moving to the next one like a cinema projector does. I think sample and hold displays combined with BFI seems like the best way to emulate how movies look like in theaters, at least on paper.

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post #77 of 428 Old 06-03-2019, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Micolash View Post
I don't think it's that simple. CRT and plasma flash each frame rather than displaying the entire frame at once before moving to the next one like a cinema projector does. I think sample and hold displays combined with BFI seems like the best way to emulate how movies look like in theaters, at least on paper.
I was talking about 24fps motion not cinematic look. I read in OLED reviews about stutter, mini stutter, frame skipping and stroboscope effect (lower frame rate content).

Aside for avforums flatpanelshd was also very positive about the AF8 motion performance.
''...This setting significantly reduced the infamous stroboscope effect that often shows up with low frame rate video content (such as 24fps movies) on OLED TVs. All in all, this is a very convincing result and without doubt the best motion performance that we have seen on any OLED TV to date. Motion on OLED takes another step forward.''
https://www.flatpanelshd.com/review....&id=1523863026
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post #78 of 428 Old 06-03-2019, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
I was talking about 24fps motion not cinematic look. I read in OLED reviews about stutter, mini stutter, frame skipping and stroboscope effect (lower frame rate content).

Aside for avforums flatpanelshd was also very positive about the AF8 motion performance.
''...This setting significantly reduced the infamous stroboscope effect that often shows up with low frame rate video content (such as 24fps movies) on OLED TVs. All in all, this is a very convincing result and without doubt the best motion performance that we have seen on any OLED TV to date. Motion on OLED takes another step forward.''
https://www.flatpanelshd.com/review....&id=1523863026
Not sure what these guys are talking about. A8F and A1E have the same exact motion settings, one is not better than the other.

Any TV can insert fake frames to "smooth" out 24 fps. I would imagine most of us here when watching film prefer to watch it as close as possible to the way it was created and the way it is shown in theaters. Very few TVs have gotten that right.

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post #79 of 428 Old 06-03-2019, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Micolash View Post
Not sure what these guys are talking about. A8F and A1E have the same exact motion settings, one is not better than the other.

Any TV can insert fake frames to "smooth" out 24 fps.
Just because the motion settings are the same does not mean by definition that the effect is the same on 2017 and 2018 models.

Several reviewers agree that the AF8 does motion somewhat better than other OLEDs. Also plenty of reviewers agree that Sony does motion interpolation better than competition.
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post #80 of 428 Old 06-03-2019, 10:53 AM
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So, there's no way to do a quick and dirty auto calibration? Just use a camera connected to a computer hooked up to the TV.

And even if it was manual, there's no way it would add hundreds of dollars to the cost. TVs made in China would cost $10 more at most.
There must be a way. For many years now Dell monitors with "U" in the model name (Ultrasharps) have been factory calibrated. Each monitor even comes with a printout of that specific monitor's calibration results.

Example:


If factory calibration cost $500-$700, then Dell must love selling monitors for a loss.
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post #81 of 428 Old 06-03-2019, 11:40 AM
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Just because the motion settings are the same does not mean by definition that the effect is the same on 2017 and 2018 models.

Several reviewers agree that the AF8 does motion somewhat better than other OLEDs. Also plenty of reviewers agree that Sony does motion interpolation better than competition.
I haven't seen any reviewer conclude that the A8F does motion better than the A1E, other than the one you linked to.

My point about frame interpolation wasn't which brand does it best. You can't turn on frame creation and then claim you are displaying 24 fps "correctly". By definition it is incorrect, whether you like the result or not.

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post #82 of 428 Old 06-03-2019, 12:14 PM
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I haven't seen any reviewer conclude that the A8F does motion better than the A1E, other than the one you linked to.
Flatpanelshd and avforums, i did not check others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micolash
My point about frame interpolation wasn't which brand does it best. You can't turn on frame creation and then claim you are displaying 24 fps "correctly". By definition it is incorrect, whether you like the result or not.
I understand that purists feel that way but in practice when there are no side effects like SOE or when side effects/SOE has hardly any impact it does not matter no more...any correct/incorrect discussion becomes irrelevant.
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post #83 of 428 Old 06-03-2019, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Actionable Mango View Post
There must be a way. For many years now Dell monitors with "U" in the model name (Ultrasharps) have been factory calibrated. Each monitor even comes with a printout of that specific monitor's calibration results.



Example:





If factory calibration cost $500-$700, then Dell must love selling monitors for a loss.
100% agree. My 2 LG Monitors came with the same data sheets. Perceptually they look exact time the same.

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
Sony XBR-75Z9F, Vizio P75-C1, Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One(X), Wii, NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, FireTV 4K-HDR, HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
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post #84 of 428 Old 06-03-2019, 04:04 PM
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Nothing against the Z9F, but I'm surprised it is being included given that it was in the shootout last year and did not win. I assume that the A9G and C9 will not be inferior to last year's models.
"Not winning" in these shootouts really doesn't mean much when the vote totals are close. People put way too much into that. I've been to most of the shootouts and every set had advantages and disadvantages. Each year, there was usually one set that was awful, but most of there rest were pretty close. One of the problems is that the voting isn't blind - you know the make and model that you're voting for and there's an inherent bias with people voting for brands/models they like. Also, you have to leave your seats to see the sets properly and some people don't bother.
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post #85 of 428 Old 06-03-2019, 04:13 PM
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Of course they get calibrated..

Right on the assembly line, it is a production step..


In this second video you can see a great example.. The usual grey scale test pattern, the meter reads the screen, and on top of there is a screen where you can see that some Data is outputed and propably saved onto the TV..

What they dont do is make readings for every picture mode. They will rather make one reading, and then use this for every picture mode, gamma setting, color, etc.. And this is where the deviation from 100% reference comes from.. Because of the long experience these companies have, ( Millions tv sets each year), they sure know how to messue and get good results with the least amout of steps in production line..


Because Oleds and Qleds are premium price product, they for sure can make more messurements and therefore get a more accurate picture..
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post #86 of 428 Old 06-03-2019, 06:16 PM
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I believe Scott Wilkerson will be the MC for the event and there will be 2 8K sets there but not part of the shoot out. But hopes next year will include the 8K
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post #87 of 428 Old 06-05-2019, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiguy3 View Post
I believe Scott Wilkerson will be the MC for the event and there will be 2 8K sets there but not part of the shoot out. But hopes next year will include the 8K
Yes sir!

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Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
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post #88 of 428 Old 06-05-2019, 05:11 PM
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They really need to have to Vizio Quantum X in the shootout by any means necessary..LOL

Some people are going to buy LCD's anyway...and frankly only look at them
If they include it in the shootout then it can provide a value statement to the Sony and Samsung entries....similar to what the LG E8 did with the Sony A9 last year

If the Vizio is 95% of the performance( or more) of the Sony and Samsung and is 35-40% less.....that will be a statement in a big way


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post #89 of 428 Old 06-06-2019, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
I read this Sony OLED review...it stated ''i have not seen 24fps motion like that in a while''...so forget about LG having better motion than Sony for a while...
"As for motion in general, LG's TruMotion system took a big step last year with the introduction of the 'Alpha 9' processor. LG explains that it has made some tweaks to its motion compensation algorithm in the second generation of the processor found in LG C9, E9, W9, Z9, and R9. Last year, we had a chance to compare LG C8 and Sony A8F side-by-side and this year we had a chance to compare LG C9 and Sony A9G side-by-side. Last year, we concluded that LG had more or less caught up with Sony who has been leading the pack for years. The tweaks to TruMotion do not change our conclusion. LG's TruMotion system is much better than it used to be (years ago) but set it too high and you will still encounter the soap opera effect."

https://www.flatpanelshd.com/review....d=1559035462#5
(technically speaking it's still not deemed better than Sony of course)
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post #90 of 428 Old 06-06-2019, 06:21 PM - Thread Starter
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YouTuber SpareChange will take care of the live feed of the 2019 TV Shootout. Worldwide viewers can see, hear, ask questions and comment live during the entire event.


Here’s the link to register for the 2019 TV Shootout: 

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Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
Sony XBR-75Z9F, Vizio P75-C1, Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One(X), Wii, NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, FireTV 4K-HDR, HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
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