Value Electronics 2019 TV Shootout evaluation event June 12, 2019 - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 428 Old 06-12-2019, 09:56 PM
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So the way we measured lag before is not accurate?


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The way I understand it, it's more of an image flash. A small white image. Doesn't take much processing for that to happen. I'm not expert though.

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on the YouTube livestream it’s at the 1:32:00 mark. Z9F: 48 ms, Q90R: 93 ms, C9: 43 ms, A9G: 53 ms. Tests were run repeatedly. Test patterns are live video feed generated focused on gaming response while in game mode. 4K HDR feed I believe.
https://youtu.be/5dckeYOaQYs
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post #182 of 428 Old 06-12-2019, 11:33 PM
 
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I did not follow it live, so sony won again? Stands to reason because this shootout is more movie and home theater oriented rather than gaming oriented. Though this year the PQ difference is lesser between a9g and c9 than it was last year between the a9f and c8, but then again this year even the price difference between the a9g vs c9 is much narrower compared to last year. In the u.s., the a9f launched for 1000 usd more than the c8. This year the a9g is a few hundred more than c9 (while a8g is cheaper). And that's only for u.s. pricing. Other places where lg doesnt price the same as america, i can tell you that unlike previous years where lg held an advantage on pricing, this year they don't have an advantage because sony and panasonic are pricing their tv's much more aggressively to compete with lg.
In pricing terms at my place, the a9g and c9 are close (a9g is slightly more), and the panasonic gz950 (to be launched) will be exactly same as c9.

Lg's video processing may have improved over their last year's model but the expert scoring in the shootout shows that they are still playing catch up to sony and not exactly on the same level. This also means that lg will not be able to match this year's panasonic oled at the hdtvtest uk shootout since they havent been able to beat sony here. sony is using the same processor as their last year's model, but panasonic has a new processor this year.

Im not into purchasing lcd's but a quick comment about them too, im surprised that the q90r was ranked 4th, behind the z9f. Probably because this is about judging how closest the tv can get to the reference bvm-x300 monitor. However, in my opinion, the samsung q90r is a little better tv overall than the sony z9f.
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post #183 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 01:13 AM
 
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Now that the adolescents have been set aside, im looking forward to the competition between the adults (sony a9g vs panasonic gz2000)
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post #184 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 01:17 AM
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Surprised Q90 is on the 4th place. It has better blooming control from what I've read vs. the Z9F.

Sony A9F, LG B6 (retired)
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post #185 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by guitarguy316 View Post
I’m not pro either one. I’d have gotten a Sony if it had hdmi 2.1 as next year’s consoles are important to me. Technically it’s all the same panels from LG, but Sony has better processing and engineering...not better panel per se 🙂



I’m not sure where you got your info. The A9G is coming in at 26ms with the LGs at 13ms for 4K SDR/HDR. When I refer to gaming performance I was also referencing if you’re gonna buy a tv this year and be an early adopter of next gen consoles next year, you’re gonna want 2.1 on your set. Game mode is fully able to be calibrated too now.

Again, I’m not defending on brand over the other. It’s really simple recommendation...

If you game a decent amount of time (subjective) but says 40-50% or more or want next gen consoles, go for LG. If not, then take the Sony.

If LG could have the upscaling processing and motion of Sony (which it’s close but still Sony ahead), then it’s a different ball game.

I think Sony will always win these types of shootouts because of the money they spend on processing technology, etc.

LG could if they invested enough. Same way they could make 100% perfect panels with no tint or banding, except they’d just be really expensive.

At least Sony didn’t way over price out of the gate but the $300 difference is now closer to $900 difference if you factor in LG at $3200 with $300 gift cards BB is offering as of now. That’s a pretty big difference and why LGs will always outsell Sony.
Sony was losing against LG OLEDs until the A9F. It was the X1 ultimate and the pixel booster that made the difference for Sony. In Europe, Panasonic typically wins these shootouts.
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post #186 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 01:27 AM
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Now that the adolescents have been set aside, im looking forward to the competition between the adults (sony a9g vs panasonic gz2000)
If the GZ2000 is out soon.... Otherwise even the GZ950 will give the Sony a tight competition.

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post #187 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 01:29 AM
 
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Surprised Q90 is on the 4th place. It has better blooming control from what I've read vs. the Z9F.
I have seen them side by side, i was at the store few weeks backs and though im not interested in buying a lcd, i still compared the performance. In relatively bright conditions, i thought the samsung q90r had better contrast punch than the z9f, as well as slightly better black bar blooming control. And Q90R's AR filter to shun off reflections works a lot better than sony. Things would probably be different if the Z9G was being compared to the Q90R. The shootout didn't include the Z9G among the competitors ( which i think it should have) because q90r is a 2019 model and z9f is a 2018.
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post #188 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 01:35 AM
 
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If the GZ2000 is out soon.... Otherwise even the GZ950 will give the Sony a tight competition.
Can't say about the 950, i would only like the 2000 going against the sony. Probably depends on how good the upgraded pana. processor will be this year. Up until last year, i have believed that sony has had the edge over pana. in motion, upscaling and gradient handling while color accuracy and natural looking skin tones has been a little better on pana.
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post #189 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 01:38 AM
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Flatpanels hd rated C9 > AG9.

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post #190 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 02:00 AM
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Flatpanels hd rated C9 > AG9.

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I guess it comes down to if you game or not and whether you care about the best motion in content other than games or not.
Other than that im sure they are both Excellent tvs
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post #191 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 02:02 AM
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Hmmm LG has won quite a few of these not too recently, in fact this is Sony's second win (ever) at the shootout. So before we start degrading LG as "adolescent" let's also remember that these sets are still very close. The chest thumping and elitist posts are themselves adolescent, let's not forget without LGD their would be no Sony OLED. While I fully intend to purchase the 77 A9G, the C9 is a worthy alternative.
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post #192 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 02:03 AM
 
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Looking at the scores, hdr dynamic range : a9g 8.875, c9 8.375. And we know that measurably, peak brightness on the c9 comes out higher than the a9g. But the dynamic tone mapping + pixel booster working with hdr10 content on the a9g actually makes some specular highlight details look brighter on a perceptual level compared to c9. Another proof that judging hdr performance simply by seeing a peak brightness measurement doesnt tell you the full story.
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post #193 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 02:21 AM
 
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Hmmm LG has won quite a few of these not too recently, in fact this is Sony's second win (ever) at the shootout.
If im not mistaken, 2017 was the first year ever that sony got into the oled business and that year they didn't beat lg in the u.s. shootout (when they had the A1E competing). In 2018 and now in 2019 sony has won, so that would make it sony winning 2 times out of 3. Unless in the u.s. there have been some sony oled models prior to 2017 where it has been competing with lg in shootouts, i wouldn't know about it.

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let's not forget without LGD their would be no Sony OLED.
If you want to go there, let's not forget without Kodak, there would be no LGD manufacturing oled tv panels.

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post #194 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 02:27 AM
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Did some uncalibrated scoring happen? Results there?

"I have received confirmation that they will be scoring OOTB {factory Cal} in all of the picture quality attributes, e.g. color fidelity, color saturation, color volume, contrast, and motion resolution. They will put all of the TVs in the best picture quality mode, but not calibrated."
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post #195 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 02:42 AM
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If im not mistaken, 2017 was the first year ever that sony got into the oled business and that year they didn't beat lg in the u.s. shootout (when they had the A1E competing). In 2018 and now in 2019 sony has won, so that would make it sony winning 2 times out of 3. Unless in the u.s. there have been some sony oled models prior to 2017 where it has been competing with lg in shootouts, i wouldn't know about it.

If you want to go there, let's not forget without Kodak, there would be no LGD manufacturing oled tv panels.
The Sony won and I will not dispute that. However calling the LG adolescent has no place here, considering the LG has dominated these shootouts until last year. As far aa your Kodak comment, LG manufacturers Oled panels now right now not Kodak or Sony, and since you want to get into semantics, anytime an oled wins, its really a win for LG...technically its Sonys processing that won this shootout.

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post #196 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 02:48 AM
 
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But yet LG manufacturers Oled panels now right now, and since you want to get into semantics, anytime an oled wins, its really a win for LG...technically its Sonys processing that wins.
Sure you could make the same claim about sony's LCD's too because sony doesn't manufacture lcd panels, they source the panels from AU Optronics and innolux, both of which are taiwan companies. The most that sony does with panels is use their AR filter and an optical filter on the front to boost viewing angles (like on the z9f), but the panels themselves are sourced. However still people buy sony lcd's because of the processing capabilities.
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post #197 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 02:50 AM
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^honestly Im just happy an Oled won the shootout again for what I believe is 5 years in a row.
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post #198 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 03:17 AM
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So the way we measured lag before is not accurate?


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The way I understand it, it's more of an image flash. A small white image. Doesn't take much processing for that to happen. I'm not expert though.

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None of this makes sense. If graphical complexity affected lag in game mode then frame rates would be wildly inconsistent based on that alone.

I'm not buying the notion that out of the blue, all prior latency measurements are wildly incorrect.

Joel and Kevin are welcome to convince me otherwise.

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post #199 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 03:18 AM
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Now that the adolescents have been set aside, im looking forward to the competition between the adults (sony a9g vs panasonic gz2000)
It just never ends. Some of the clueless remarks are nothing short of breathtaking. This is why I was absent from the display forums for so long.
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post #200 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 03:20 AM
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I’m not pro either one. I’d have gotten a Sony if it had hdmi 2.1 as next year’s consoles are important to me. Technically it’s all the same panels from LG, but Sony has better processing and engineering...not better panel per se 🙂

I’m not sure where you got your info. The A9G is coming in at 26ms with the LGs at 13ms for 4K SDR/HDR. When I refer to gaming performance I was also referencing if you’re gonna buy a tv this year and be an early adopter of next gen consoles next year, you’re gonna want 2.1 on your set. Game mode is fully able to be calibrated too now.

I don't necessarily agree with that. I don't see 4k/120 fps being viable for most games and a locked 4k/60 fps is far more realistic, so I am not sure HDMI 2.1 will be as critical as some believe. I've bought pretty much every PS console when it launched, so I am by definition an early adopter, and if I'm wrong, I'll buy another TV in a couple of years when HDMI 2.1 is mature.
You realize that there’s plenty of games at 4k/60 hdr right now? There will absolutely be a push for 4k/120, it’s going to be achievable.

Hell wasn't microsoft just saying this week they can pump out 8k/30 on Scarlett console?
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post #201 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 03:22 AM
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Surprised Q90 is on the 4th place. It has better blooming control from what I've read vs. the Z9F.
I agree, better blooming control and probably better black levels. I was sure it would take 3rd place, but in my brief stint with the Q90 I was less than wowed with its color.
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post #202 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 03:29 AM
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Hmmm LG has won quite a few of these not too recently, in fact this is Sony's second win (ever) at the shootout. So before we start degrading LG as "adolescent" let's also remember that these sets are still very close. The chest thumping and elitist posts are themselves adolescent, let's not forget without LGD their would be no Sony OLED. While I fully intend to purchase the 77 A9G, the C9 is a worthy alternative.
How soon they forget.

It’s really amusing to see some go on about how Sony’s tech leaves LG in the dust, yet it’s LG supplying OLED panels to Sony, not the other way around. If Sony’s tech was so superior, it would be Sony supplying their OLEDs to LG.
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Some people tend to mix up LGD (lg display) and LGE (lg electronics)? LGD and LGE are subsidiaries of the LG/Goldstar Chaebeol, just like LG Chem is another subsidiary. The company that manufactures these lg oleds is LGE, and they dont supply any of their tech to other companies. LGD is a common panel vendor to any company currently pursuing oled tv's, whether it's sony or b&o. I think LGE partly has some share ownership in LGD but regardless they are different subsidiaries of the same parent company. And LGD was formed as a joint venture between lg and philips in the late 90s to produce lcd panels. Philips walked away in 2008, since then LGD is under the lg chaebol and have now diverted their R&D to oled panels, the patents of which were acquired from Kodak. Recently LG chem also got into an acquisition deal with DuPont to acquire soluble materials which they will eventually harness for IJP (inkjet printed) oled panels. The koreans are shrewd at marketing and business deals, for sure.
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post #204 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 04:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 8KCRT View Post
on the YouTube livestream it’s at the 1:32:00 mark. Z9F: 48 ms, Q90R: 93 ms, C9: 43 ms, A9G: 53 ms. Tests were run repeatedly. Test patterns are live video feed generated focused on gaming response while in game mode. 4K HDR feed I believe.
https://youtu.be/5dckeYOaQYs
Thanks I could t remember exactly.

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post #205 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 04:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Surprised Q90 is on the 4th place. It has better blooming control from what I've read vs. the Z9F.
Better blooming control but to much crush. I think if you combined them in the middle it would be a great compromise. They all had their pluses and minuses. It was crazy how in one scene 2 would match the BVM and another scene the other 2 would match the BVM. It went back and forth the whole shootout even with test patterns.

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post #206 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 04:32 AM
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Streaming

If I read the chart correctly and I stream 90% of the time with my lg it won is that correct ?
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post #207 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 04:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I have seen them side by side, i was at the store few weeks backs and though im not interested in buying a lcd, i still compared the performance. In relatively bright conditions, i thought the samsung q90r had better contrast punch than the z9f, as well as slightly better black bar blooming control. And Q90R's AR filter to shun off reflections works a lot better than sony. Things would probably be different if the Z9G was being compared to the Q90R. The shootout didn't include the Z9G among the competitors ( which i think it should have) because q90r is a 2019 model and z9f is a 2018.
The Z9F is still current this year even being a 2018. The z9g is 8k and 85".

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post #208 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 04:40 AM
 
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^All other 3 competing tv's were 2019 models, only the z9f was the odd one out, being carried over from last year and being given a 'second chance'. though sony hasnt dropped supply of the z9f, i would have preferred the newest z9g to be among the competing tv's. doesnt matter if it's 8k, could have evaluated 4k content on it just like the other tv's.
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post #209 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Menarini View Post
Some people tend to mix up LGD (lg display) and LGE (lg electronics)? LGD and LGE are subsidiaries of the LG/Goldstar Chaebeol, just like LG Chem is another subsidiary. The company that manufactures these lg oleds is LGE, and they dont supply any of their tech to other companies. LGD is a common panel vendor to any company currently pursuing oled tv's, whether it's sony or b&o. I think LGE partly has some share ownership in LGD but regardless they are different subsidiaries of the same parent company. And LGD was formed as a joint venture between lg and philips in the late 90s to produce lcd panels. Philips walked away in 2008, since then LGD is under the lg chaebol and have now diverted their R&D to oled panels, the patents of which were acquired from Kodak. Recently LG chem also got into an acquisition deal with DuPont to acquire soluble materials which they will eventually harness for IJP (inkjet printed) oled panels. The koreans are shrewd at marketing and business deals, for sure.
You're missing the point. The point is that if Sony's tech was so far superior to LG, they would have come up with their own flavor of OLED just as Samsung did.

The other point that will never be brought up in shootouts and is only occasionally brought up in the better reviews, is the OS. IMO the LG OS is far superior to Sony's. Reviews that do assess that have agreed. Part of the enjoyment of a TV is navigating the OS. An OS that periodically crashes or slows, is not much fun.
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post #210 of 428 Old 06-13-2019, 04:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New_to_4K View Post
If the GZ2000 is out soon.... Otherwise even the GZ950 will give the Sony a tight competition.
Had my Panny 60VT60 calibrated last night and man does it look fantastic!! I have it calibrated every other year. The only problem I have is that its not 77". Would love for Panny to sell their OLED products in the US but once the OLED 77" drops below $4K, its go time!
Panson likes this.

Panasonic P60VT60 Calibrated by Chad B
Anthem MRX-720, Oppo UDP-205, Bluesound Node 2i, Focal Aria 936/CC900
MacBook Pro, AppleTV 3 & 4K, Sony PS4 Pro

Last edited by mbroadus; 06-13-2019 at 05:05 AM.
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