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-   -   Value Electronics 2019 TV Shootout evaluation event June 12, 2019 (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/3070164-value-electronics-2019-tv-shootout-evaluation-event-june-12-2019-a.html)

shoman94 05-29-2019 06:51 AM

Value Electronics 2019 TV Shootout evaluation event June 12, 2019
 
Value Electronics signed on to host the 2019 TV Shootout evaluation event with CE Week NY at the Jacob Javits on Wednesday, June 12, 2019. This year they are bringing in Joel Silver, Scott Wilkinson, Kevin Miller and John Reformato to calibrate the displays, moderate the event and be part of our special VIP presenters program. This year’s TV Shootout is different as we are seeing much different levels of advancements from each of the TVs in various elements of video performance. The testing, methodology and new testing equipment from the professional AV Pro Store provided by Matt Murray we’re able to more accurately measure and put up more accurate test patterns.

There will be a panel of expert judges that are made up of Hollywood Post Production colorists, finishers, respected TV reviewers and video engineers. They will also have the public voting and they will publish the voting results of the professional judges and video enthusiasts public who attend.

I have received confirmation that they will be scoring OOTB {factory Cal} in all of the picture quality attributes, e.g. color fidelity, color saturation, color volume, contrast, and motion resolution. They will put all of the TVs in the best picture quality mode, but not calibrated.  


They are also evaluating and voting on FHD/SDR performance in high and low ambient light conditions.

The published summary results that will be made available on the final summary voting ballot form can be customized to the user's preferences.

--For example if someone is only interested in an LCD display they can simply cross out the two OLED TVs and use the chart to compare just the LCD TVs. If budget is the objective just cross out the one or more highest priced TVs and use the ballot chart to determine which TV suites your budget best.
--One more example is to determine which picture attribute is most important, like motion resolution, or color fidelity or input lag, again use the summary ballot as a matrix chart to determine which TV best matches your specific liking.



They are planning to webcast the event live and have a moderated chat room so off site viewers can participate in the event.


I'm told that they will be displaying and demonstrating a preview of the next generation of 8K HDR TVs in the TV Shootout room from Sony and Samsung.


As of this moment the following 65" TVs confirmed for the 2019 TV Shootout:

LG’s C9
Samsung’s Q90R
Sony’s A9G
Sony’s Z9F

They will have the Sony BVM-X300 at the shootout again this year to reference to.


YouTuber SpareChange will take care of the live feed of the 2019 TV Shootout. The channel will be moderated by the channel owner Shane so Worldwide viewers can see, hear, ask questions and comment live during the entire event.


Here’s the link to register for the 2019 TV Shootout:
 





For anyone that would like to attend the shootout:

Robert can register anyone who wants to attend the TV Shootout with an all access pass to everything at CE Week, including the panel discussions.  He has a special link that gets them a VIP badge and there is no charge.  The badges will be pre-printed and available for p/u at the registration desk.


The best method is by emailing him, rzohn at valueelectronics dot com and put in the subject line TV Shootout registration request.


BTW, he is on the 8K Panel discussion with a great group of executives and he'd love for anyone attending the TV Shootout to also attend the Thursday, June 13th 8K Panel discussion.



PLEASE keep this thread civil! This is not a bashing thread for the TVs, Event or the people involved.

Gillietalls 05-29-2019 12:07 PM

They had the BVM-X300 last year. Wish they would have chose one of the LCD monitors (Dolby Pulsar, BVM-HX310, FSI-XM311K, ProArt PA32UCX, or etc) this year...

shoman94 05-29-2019 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gillietalls (Post 58113704)
They had the BVM-X300 last year. Wish they would have chose one of the LCD monitors (Dolby Pulsar, BVM-HX310, FSI-XM311K, ProArt PA32UCX, or etc) this year...

I agree, I was hoping for this also. They tried to get the a BVM-HX310 but couldn't.

KidHorn 05-29-2019 12:50 PM

I predict pretty much a repeat of last year. Nothing much has changed.

JD23 05-29-2019 01:39 PM

Spoiler alert: The contestants will consist of the A9G, C9, and Q90R and either the A9G or C9 will win.

New_to_4K 05-29-2019 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JD23 (Post 58114100)
Spoiler alert: The contestants will consist of the A9G, C9, and Q90R and either the A9G or C9 will win.

E9 will participate not C9. Last year they had E8.

shoman94 05-29-2019 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JD23 (Post 58114100)
Spoiler alert: The contestants will consist of the A9G, C9, and Q90R and either the A9G or C9 will win.

I will post the TV's once it is finalized. [emoji6]

I do agree though that the pros in the industry prefer OLED for one main reason and don't seem to care about the cons.

Personally I'd like to see this competition be about out of the box too. IMO 90+% of people do not calibrate their TV so factory setup is a big deal.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk

Stuntman_Mike 05-29-2019 03:21 PM

Cool. I'll be in Egypt during that time, but I'll read all about it when I'm back. Probably can guess what the order will be once the entrants are listed, though.

shoman94 05-29-2019 03:45 PM

Updated OP with confirmed displays and some additional info about the shootout.

egrady 05-29-2019 03:47 PM

If you're going to have a shoot out, make it a real shootout. Include the Sony Z9G. The Z9F, yecch!

shoman94 05-29-2019 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by egrady (Post 58114746)
If you're going to have a shoot out, make it a real shootout. Include the Sony Z9G. The Z9F, yecch!

The Z9F did amazing at last years shootout and will perform well again. The Z9G is only available in 85/98" sizes and the pricing is unrealistic for a consumer shootout IMO. Also please no bashing. I want this thread to remain open.

drewTT 05-29-2019 04:05 PM

Ms. Cleo says OLED wins...again.

JD23 05-29-2019 04:07 PM

Nothing against the Z9F, but I'm surprised it is being included given that it was in the shootout last year and did not win. I assume that the A9G and C9 will not be inferior to last year's models.

shoman94 05-29-2019 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JD23 (Post 58114834)
Nothing against the Z9F, but I'm surprised it is being included given that it was in the shootout last year and did not win. I assume that the A9G and C9 will not be inferior to last year's models.

I think it's important since it is still Sony's flagship LCD in that size and because the way the shootout will be scored, as explained in the OP, will allow consumers to adjust the results so they can look at what is important to them and no just an overall what's important to the judges. After all scoring and reviews are typically opinion based with some available hard data.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk

boe 05-29-2019 04:19 PM

I'm interested in the motion results for the LG vs the Sony now that the LG got a new chip. I thought the Sony looked better last year but have not seen this years model.

8mile13 05-29-2019 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boe (Post 58114906)
I'm interested in the motion results for the LG vs the Sony now that the LG got a new chip. I thought the Sony looked better last year but have not seen this years model.

I read this Sony OLED review...it stated ''i have not seen 24fps motion like that in a while''...so forget about LG having better motion than Sony for a while...

jrref 05-29-2019 05:09 PM

I believe the plan is to rate the OLEDs separately from the LCDs this time around.

locomo 05-29-2019 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8mile13 (Post 58115080)
I read this Sony OLED review...it stated ''i have not seen 24fps motion like that in a while''...so forget about LG having better motion than Sony for a while...

“In a while “ ? What plasma or CRT were they referring?

Menarini 05-29-2019 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gillietalls (Post 58113704)
They had the BVM-X300 last year. Wish they would have chose one of the LCD monitors (Dolby Pulsar, BVM-HX310, FSI-XM311K, ProArt PA32UCX, or etc) this year...

The BVM-X300 has been discontinued by sony, dont know why they are sticking to it. Pulsar is an amazing monitor though something to keep in mind is pulsar is a 42" 1080p monitor, not 4k even though its peak brightness and color accuracy is amazing and probably the best of all pro monitors out there. Panasonic recently held an event together with dolby where panasonic demonstrated their flagship tv running side by side to the dolby pulsar to show how close their tv could look compared to it (there is a video out there). From the choices available, i would have liked the pulsar too, but since dolby is not involved in the value electronics event, procuring a pulsar monitor would have been hard, it's available in very limited numbers and costs 30k+ if bought.

Since they are using the bvm-x300 again, my guess is that the sony master series oled (a9g) could have a tiny advantage (even post calibration?) when looking at and comparing both side by side because sony fine tunes their master series tv's to closely resemble the bvm-x300, the OOTB whitepoint on the a9g is matched to their bvm-x300 monitor.

8mile13 05-29-2019 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by locomo (Post 58115148)
“In a while “ ? What plasma or CRT were they referring?

so sad:(

Menarini 05-29-2019 05:38 PM

Everyone can see that from the choices available, the competition for best tv will be between the two oleds - lg c9/e9 vs sony a9g. the lg will be the better gaming category tv. best home theater tv and overall best tv i would wager on the a9g, but we'll see. Lg has closed the video processing gap.

mbroadus 05-29-2019 07:53 PM

Looking forward to it!

ttnuagmada 05-30-2019 12:02 AM

No Quantum X?

shoman94 05-30-2019 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ttnuagmada (Post 58116520)
No Quantum X?

As stated in the OP, other displays are being looked at and the list will be updated if more are included.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk

New_to_4K 05-30-2019 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrref (Post 58115136)
I believe the plan is to rate the OLEDs separately from the LCDs this time around.

Why? Samsung positioned Q90 against OLED, it is only fair if it is compared against OLED.

Should include Quantum X in the shootout too.

Menarini 05-30-2019 03:18 AM

OP reads the "panel of expert judges that are made up of hollywood post production colorists..."
And yet the tv that hollywood colorists prefer over all these other included tv's won't be present at the shootout. the ez1000 is still part of hollywood color grading suites and im sure they are anticipating the gz2000 this year. hollywood's preference is panasonic..not samsung sony or lg.

ttnuagmada 05-30-2019 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menarini (Post 58116690)
OP reads the "panel of expert judges that are made up of hollywood post production colorists..."
And yet the tv that hollywood colorists prefer over all these other included tv's won't be present at the shootout. the ez1000 is still part of hollywood color grading suites and im sure they are anticipating the gz2000 this year. hollywood's preference is panasonic..not samsung sony or lg.

Considering anyone attending and probably most people watching wouldn't even be able to purchase that set, it doesn't seem like a very good idea to include it.

Menarini 05-30-2019 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ttnuagmada (Post 58116702)
Considering anyone attending and probably most people watching wouldn't even be able to purchase that set, it doesn't seem like a very good idea to include it.

Panasonic is available in u.s. if you are a professional linked to hollywood, work for THX, ISF etc. There are a couple of videos on YT showing hollywood colorists having a panasonic oled in their grading suite. In the consumer market in u.s. it's not available, in the professional industry it is. Outside the u.s. it is available in consumer market.

ttnuagmada 05-30-2019 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menarini (Post 58116716)
Panasonic is available in u.s. if you are a professional linked to hollywood, work for THX, ISF etc. There are a couple of videos on YT showing hollywood colorists having a panasonic oled in their grading suite. In the consumer market in u.s. it's not available, in the professional industry it is. Outside the u.s. it is available in consumer market.


This shootout isn't intended for the professionals. It's intended for the public. Professionals are being brought in to rate products available to the public.

BillP 05-30-2019 05:40 AM

They never include Panasonic because it is not available to consumers in the US. Period. The EU has its own shoot-out.

mbroadus 05-30-2019 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menarini (Post 58116716)
Panasonic is available in u.s. if you are a professional linked to hollywood, work for THX, ISF etc. There are a couple of videos on YT showing hollywood colorists having a panasonic oled in their grading suite. In the consumer market in u.s. it's not available, in the professional industry it is. Outside the u.s. it is available in consumer market.

I keep holding off on buying an OLED hoping, some praying, that the Panasonic 65FZ952B will become available in the US. Plus, my Panny plasma still looks great and will have it calibrated again in a couple weeks?

Menarini 05-30-2019 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ttnuagmada (Post 58116870)
This shootout isn't intended for the professionals. It's intended for the public. Professionals are being brought in to rate products available to the public.

If it's only intended for the public, then let the public have the say on who wins or who doesnt. Let the people decide the outcome( such as enthusiasts/videophiles on forums), why let professionals decide. That's like saying it's a general election but government officials are brought in to vote.

Menarini 05-30-2019 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbroadus (Post 58116926)
I keep holding off on buying an OLED hoping, some praying, that the Panasonic 65FZ952B will become available in the US. Plus, my Panny plasma still looks great and will have it calibrated again in a couple weeks?

that's last year's model and i have a strict 'no tv without dolby vision' policy. it's only this year with the gz models supporting dv that i have become interested in their oleds for the first time (im more of a sony guy but i like pana. too), whether one of the gz models make it to the shootout vincent teoh hosts in the uk is unclear at this point as they would be a late launch.

jrref 05-30-2019 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menarini (Post 58117090)
If it's only intended for the public, then let the public have the say on who wins or who doesnt. Let the people decide the outcome( such as enthusiasts/videophiles on forums), why let professionals decide. That's like saying it's a general election but government officials are brought in to vote.

From what I understand their will be the professionals voting and then a general public vote including calibrators and other professionals. But you are correct. The pro's voting here will be looking for and evaluating what's important to their work which can be somewhat different than what the general public buying these sets is concerned about. For the "the people who actually purchase these TVs" I would be concerned about banding, tinting, screen uniformity, black crush, artifacts, calibration accuracy out of the box, and general presentation of common content vs pure accuracy after calibration. You can have a perfectly calibrated set with the most perfect representation of colors, etc, but most of the sets could have those jail bar bands or distractive tinting. Look what happened to the Samsung Q9 last year.

Who makes up the voting pool in Vincent's shootouts?

mbroadus 05-30-2019 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menarini (Post 58117210)
that's last year's model and i have a strict 'no tv without dolby vision' policy. it's only this year with the gz models supporting dv that i have become interested in their oleds for the first time (im more of a sony guy but i like pana. too), whether one of the gz models make it to the shootout vincent teoh hosts in the uk is unclear at this point as they would be a late launch.

Like you...I have to have Dolby Vision too and prefer Sony and Panasonic products. I didn't read that much about the Panasonic because I was so excited to see them back in the game. At least oversees anyway.

Looks like the new GZ2000B supports Dolby Vision, HDR10+, HDR10.

Menarini 05-30-2019 07:39 AM

^@Jref I think in vincent's shootouts too, it's professionals that do the evaluation and scoring. But if the shootouts are intended for the public, they should do a double round voting, the first round the pro's sit and score the tv's and next round it's just the average tv buyers, and the results should be kept completely separate. the two results should be declared as the professional verdict and public verdict. Because of course the average guy who watches at home cares for more things than just how close his calibrated D65 tv can look to a professional monitor.

8mile13 05-30-2019 08:19 AM

I stumbled upon a Metameric Failure thread. It is stated that LEDs and OLEDs suffer from this. Do these need a alternative whitepoint/reference comparison to make shure they are accurate? Is it really that bad?

KidHorn 05-30-2019 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoman94 (Post 58114402)
Personally I'd like to see this competition be about out of the box too. IMO 90+% of people do not calibrate their TV so factory setup is a big deal.

Agree absolutely.

I never understood why manufacturers don't fine tune every TV or produce a product that's consistent enough so a given setting will look good on all TVs. Most will make a buying decision based off looking at an out of the box TV at a store.

Milt99 05-30-2019 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KidHorn (Post 58118874)
Agree absolutely.

I never understood why manufacturers don't fine tune every TV or produce a product that's consistent enough so a given setting will look good on all TVs. Most will make a buying decision based off looking at an out of the box TV at a store.

Add $5-700 to the price of every set, maybe more, that's why.
The cost of extra personnel, training and the huge slow down in production rates.
The vast majority of consumers would rather have a cheaper price than pay for calibration they don't think they need.

Those of us who do want calibration will pay for it anyway from someone we trust.

KidHorn 05-30-2019 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milt99 (Post 58119054)
Add $5-700 to the price of every set, maybe more, that's why.
The cost of extra personnel, training and the huge slow down in production rates.
The vast majority of consumers would rather have a cheaper price than pay for calibration they don't think they need.

Those of us who do want calibration will pay for it anyway from someone we trust.

So, there's no way to do a quick and dirty auto calibration? Just use a camera connected to a computer hooked up to the TV.

And even if it was manual, there's no way it would add hundreds of dollars to the cost. TVs made in China would cost $10 more at most.

Milt99 05-30-2019 01:21 PM

ok KidHorn, give LG, Sony, Samsung, etal., a jingle and tell them what they're doing wrong.

WRXpilot 05-30-2019 01:37 PM

They already do? Out of the box accuracy of TVs sold today is WORLDS better than ever before. Practically every mid-tier or better set you can buy has a Cinema/Calibrated/ISF mode that puts the SDR greyscale and color accuracy within error levels imperceptible to the average human. Without touching a CMS, or 11-pt (or 2-pt) greyscale control. 10 years ago that was crazy talk, and even the 'best' TVs needed hands-on unit by unit calibration.


In a mass market product, going beyond 'imperceptible error' just isn't worth it. How many people do you think actually want/maintain an ISF-accurate picture in their home TV? I'd bet it's less than 1% of all consumers, and I'd be shocked if it's over 5%.

jrref 05-30-2019 02:03 PM

If they have time i'll give an updated presentation of OOTB calibration and ICtCp on these new 2019 sets at the shootout which will document what is typically seen.

fafrd 05-30-2019 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoman94 (Post 58114402)
I will post the TV's once it is finalized. [emoji6]

I do agree though that the pros in the industry prefer OLED for one main reason and don't seem to care about the cons.

Personally I'd like to see this competition be about out of the box too. IMO 90+% of people do not calibrate their TV so factory setup is a big deal.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk

Totally agree. OOTB versus following profesdional calibration is a far more important factor versus which calibrated TV is more accurate to professional standards (judged by professionals) versus which TV consumers like best accuracy-be-d*mned.

Of course that would mean the TVs would need to be judged twice, which is probably impractical. So maybe the best OOTB presets could be used for judging all modes and only SDR Movie mode is judged twice (calibrated and best OOTB setting).

Oh, and your 90%+ is way, way off - if we assume 20 million Premium TVs sold per, that would be 2 million calibrations per year and I doubt there are even 10% of that many calibrations performed annually.

Consumer cakibrations cost ~$500 and I highly doubt it's consumer calibration is anywhere close to a billion dollar industry - even $100 million seems a stretch. At $250K of annual income per calibrator that would translate to 400 calibrators supported worldwide and lets say half of them are here in the US. I doubt we have 200 consumer calibrators in this country (and certainly nowhere near 2000).

I guess we also have to factor in DIY calibrators as as well (like me ;)), but still, the number of new Premium TVs calibrated per year is alnost certainly closer to 0.1% (~200K) than it is to 1% (~2 million).

shoman94 05-30-2019 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fafrd (Post 58119476)
Totally agree. OOTB versus following profesdional calibration is a far more important factor versus which calibrated TV is more accurate to professional standards (judged by professionals) versus which TV consumers like best accuracy-be-d*mned.



Of course that would mean the TVs would need to be judged twice, which is probably impractical. So maybe the best OOTB presets could be used for judging all modes and only SDR Movie mode is judged twice (calibrated and best OOTB setting).



Oh, and your 90%+ is way, way off - if we assume 20 million Premium TVs sold per, that would be 2 million calibrations per year and I doubt there are even 10% of that many calibrations performed annually.



Consumer cakibrations cost ~$500 and I highly doubt it's consumer calibration is anywhere close to a billion dollar industry - even $100 million seems a stretch. At $250K of annual income per calibrator that would translate to 400 calibrators supported worldwide and lets say half of them are here in the US. I doubt we have 200 consumer calibrators in this country (and certainly nowhere near 2000).



I guess we also have to factor in DIY calibrators as as well (like me ;)), but still, the number of new Premium TVs calibrated per year is alnost certainly closer to 0.1% (~200K) than it is to 1% (~2 million).

It was just a rough number shooting from the hip. Also why I said 90+... [emoji6]

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk

shoman94 05-30-2019 07:59 PM

I have received confirmation that they will be scoring OOTB {factory Cal} in all of the picture quality attributes, e.g. color fidelity, color saturation, color volume, contrast, and motion resolution. They will put all of the TVs in the best picture quality mode, but not calibrated.  


They are also evaluating and voting on FHD/SDR performance in high and low ambient light conditionings.



Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk

Menarini 05-30-2019 08:09 PM

Comparing OOTB presets, i think from these options the sony master series tv's are ahead, followed by lg and last samsung. Sony's OOTB tuning on the master series tv's is good enough, many people could run them uncalibrated they look fairly good. Lg oleds are a little behind but they are getting better y-o-y with OOTB accuracy. Samsung is meh, their engineers tend to think that presenting people with an inflated EOTF curve or colors that gives the illusion of brighter is bound to sell more tv's. I won't mention the other brand i was talking about as i now see it's not part of the competition, but i would still say that far as OOTB color accuracy goes they perform the best compared to all manufacturers including sony. sony beats them in motion and scaling but color accuracy is their forte.

shoman94 05-30-2019 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menarini (Post 58120864)
Comparing OOTB presets, i think from these options the sony master series tv's are ahead, followed by lg and last samsung. Sony's OOTB tuning on the master series tv's is good enough, many people could run them uncalibrated they look fairly good. Lg oleds are a little behind but they are getting better y-o-y with OOTB accuracy. Samsung is meh, their engineers tend to think that presenting people with an inflated EOTF curve or colors that gives the illusion of brighter is bound to sell more tv's. I won't mention the other brand i was talking about as i now see it's not part of the competition, but i would still say that far as OOTB color accuracy goes they perform the best compared to all manufacturers including sony. sony beats them in motion and scaling but color accuracy is their forte.

I think it's a tough call with Sony since the 2018 Master Series personally.


Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk

Menarini 05-30-2019 09:19 PM

^Im giving that judgment based off the a9 master series oleds (a9f and a9g) and comparing them to lg and samsung. since you seem to own the z9f, things might be a little different, i havent seen the z9f extensively to pass judgment on its ootb accuracy. But still i think on master series sony tv's in general, the ootb picture being 'good enough' holds true except to very discerning users who want to extract that last 5%

Menarini 05-30-2019 11:12 PM

-Attention Value electronics-
Vincent has just reviewed the sony Z9G on youtube, it has 720 zones and is 4000 nits. I think it deserves to be in the shootout in place of last year's z9f.

mbroadus 05-31-2019 06:35 AM

Value Electronics 2019 TV Shootout evaluation event June 12, 2019
 
It may be my OCD regarding displays but I have my display calibrated every other year. I’ve had my Panny almost 6 years and will have my 3rd calibration in a couple weeks. I’m currently researching new displays in the 75-77” range and I’m leaning towards the Sony 950G, Z9D or A9G and even though these displays may be very accurate out of the box, I still want to have it calibrated. Additionally, the shootout is a great tool to use in my research. Would rather see the A9G in the shootout also.


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egrady 05-31-2019 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menarini (Post 58121402)
-Attention Value electronics-
Vincent has just reviewed the sony Z9G on youtube, it has 720 zones and is 4000 nits. I think it deserves to be in the shootout in place of last year's z9f.

There must be an echo in here.

shoman94 05-31-2019 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menarini (Post 58121402)
-Attention Value electronics-

Vincent has just reviewed the sony Z9G on youtube, it has 720 zones and is 4000 nits. I think it deserves to be in the shootout in place of last year's z9f.

The Z9G will be there but not part off the shootout.

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shoman94 05-31-2019 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbroadus (Post 58122056)
It may be my OCD regarding displays but I have my display calibrated every other year. I’ve had my Panny almost 6 years and will have my 3rd calibration in a couple weeks. I’m currently researching new displays in the 75-77” range and I’m leaning towards the Sony 950G, Z9D or A9G and even though these displays may be very accurate out of the box, I still want to have it calibrated. Additionally, the shootout is a great tool to use in my research. Would rather see the A9G in the shootout also.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The Z9F is a better display than the 950G and fits more inline with what your looking at in my opinion.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk

mbroadus 05-31-2019 03:16 PM

Value Electronics 2019 TV Shootout evaluation event June 12, 2019
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by shoman94 (Post 58124292)
The Z9F is a better display than the 950G and fits more inline with what your looking at in my opinion.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk

Thanks...what about the Z9G?

shoman94 05-31-2019 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbroadus (Post 58124498)
Thanks...is there a Z9G?

The 77a9g will be quite a bit more than the 75z9f. That's why I mentioned it. The z9g is available in 85"and 98" only.

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mbroadus 05-31-2019 03:24 PM

Value Electronics 2019 TV Shootout evaluation event June 12, 2019
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by shoman94 (Post 58124528)
The 77a9g will be quite a bit more than the 75z9f. That's why I mentioned it. The z9g is available in 85"and 98" only.

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Yes, I had a brain fart. the 77a9g stretches the budget while the 65 would be fine but I want the 77” I’ll look into the Z9F. Thanks for the info!

mbroadus 05-31-2019 07:41 PM

@shoman94 - I apologize for my incoherent drivel earlier, I was refereeing a group of 4 year olds.

Anyway...the Sony 65A9G easily fits in my budget but I would really like to have the 77A9G. My viewing is mostly in the evening with minimal light, except weekend football, hockey, soccer and baseball games during the day. I do a little gaming, probably 4-6 hours at a time on a Friday afternoon. I’m concerned about the Z9F, and most LEDs, because I’ve heard that they are extremely bright and most of my watching is in the evening. I have a guy that calibrates my Panny and he sets up a day and night mode for me, is this possible or is there a similar setting on the Z9F? Thanks


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kensingtonwick 05-31-2019 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by New_to_4K (Post 58116652)
Why? Samsung positioned Q90 against OLED, it is only fair if it is compared against OLED.



Should include Quantum X in the shootout too.



Hell yes! Quantum X!


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Panson 05-31-2019 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoman94 (Post 58120824)
I have received confirmation that they will be scoring OOTB {factory Cal} in all of the picture quality attributes, e.g. color fidelity, color saturation, color volume, contrast, and motion resolution. They will put all of the TVs in the best picture quality mode, but not calibrated.  

They are also evaluating and voting on FHD/SDR performance in high and low ambient light conditionings.

"Best picture quality mode", what's that normally at a shootout, Cinema or similar? Too dim for me.

OLEDS in low ambient light and LCDs in high? Or both in both?

TIA

shoman94 05-31-2019 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbroadus (Post 58125514)
@shoman94 - I apologize for my incoherent drivel earlier, I was refereeing a group of 4 year olds.

Anyway...the Sony 65A9G easily fits in my budget but I would really like to have the 77A9G. My viewing is mostly in the evening with minimal light, except weekend football, hockey, soccer and baseball games during the day. I do a little gaming, probably 4-6 hours at a time on a Friday afternoon. I’m concerned about the Z9F, and most LEDs, because I’ve heard that they are extremely bright and most of my watching is in the evening. I have a guy that calibrates my Panny and he sets up a day and night mode for me, is this possible or is there a similar setting on the Z9F? Thanks


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Yes you can setup the Z9F the same way. Some gives us many settings that cater to the different conditions. I personally only watch movies in the dark. I light my room with the recommended 5 nits. There are pros and cons with many sets and the different technologies.

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DisplayCalNoob 05-31-2019 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrref (Post 58119294)
If they have time i'll give an updated presentation of OOTB calibration and ICtCp on these new 2019 sets at the shootout which will document what is typically seen.

ICtCp would hurt some feelings.

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mbroadus 06-01-2019 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoman94 (Post 58125910)
Yes you can setup the Z9F the same way. Some gives us many settings that cater to the different conditions. I personally only watch movies in the dark. I light my room with the recommended 5 nits. There are pros and cons with many sets and the different technologies.

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Are you saying that Sony has many different setting on the Z9F for different room conditions? Thanks


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New_to_4K 06-01-2019 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbroadus (Post 58126654)
Are you saying that Sony has many different setting on the Z9F for different room conditions? Thanks


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Many brands have different settings for different viewing conditions. BTW, the Z9F has terrible reflection handling in a bright room...

shoman94 06-01-2019 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by New_to_4K (Post 58127026)
Many brands have different settings for different viewing conditions. BTW, the Z9F has terrible reflection handling in a bright room...

I have 4 windows and 2 skylights in my living room. Daytime viewing is not an issue. Like any room setup and TV, where the reflections are in relation to the TV affects how the tv handles them. You statement is very one sided and sounds like a product bashing. Please refrain from that here.

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Soccerdude 06-01-2019 09:31 AM

I wish they include Sony X950G 85 inch

mbroadus 06-01-2019 11:41 AM

Value Electronics 2019 TV Shootout evaluation event June 12, 2019
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by New_to_4K (Post 58127026)
Many brands have different settings for different viewing conditions. BTW, the Z9F has terrible reflection handling in a bright room...


Yes, I know there is standard, home theater, cinema mode, etc settings. I was referring to sub mode settings.

Regarding reflections, RTINGS.com says, “Excellent reflection handling, but slightly worse than the Z9D. There should be no issues using this TV in a very bright room. Interestingly, reflections are smeared horizontally on this screen more than any other TV we've tested. This may be a result of the new optical layer, which you can see in the pixels photo here. Even bright lights which are far off the the side of the TV can be seen smeared horizontally when the TV is off.”

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/z9f

I’m more concerned about the low contrast ratio.

Anyway, let’s get back on topic of the shootout!


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shoman94 06-01-2019 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbroadus (Post 58127518)
Yes, I know there is standard, home theater, cinema mode, etc settings. I was referring to sub mode settings.

Regarding reflections, RTINGS.com says, “Excellent reflection handling, but slightly worse than the Z9D. There should be no issues using this TV in a very bright room. Interestingly, reflections are smeared horizontally on this screen more than any other TV we've tested. This may be a result of the new optical layer, which you can see in the pixels photo here. Even bright lights which are far off the the side of the TV can be seen smeared horizontally when the TV is off.”

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/z9f

I’m more concerned about the low contrast ratio.

Anyway, let’s get back on topic of the shootout!


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Yes like most Sony's..... ACE which helps a lot with low APL scenes. Local dimming, XDR among others.

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helvetica bold 06-01-2019 03:54 PM

Whats the best way to sign up to attend, register for CE Week? Before it was just an email to Robert.

shoman94 06-01-2019 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kensingtonwick (Post 58125654)
Hell yes! Quantum X!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Quote:

Originally Posted by New_to_4K (Post 58116652)
Why? Samsung positioned Q90 against OLED, it is only fair if it is compared against OLED.

Should include Quantum X in the shootout too.

Here is a response from Robert on the Vizio PX65-Q. I like the vetting process and retail purchasing of the displays that will be in the shootout.

CE Week is discussing the TV Shootout with them and from my latest update no decision has been reached yet.  I’ll  get back to you when I find out more.  


I made the decisions on the TVs that are included so far, but I do not know anyone at Vizio so it’s in the hands of CE Week and Vizio.  One item I would not permit is if they want to supply the sample as we do not accept samples from any manufacturer so they would have to agree on me buying the TV from Best Buy or another retailer so we have all randomly selected TVs that are factory sealed and not cherry picked by anyone.


We also have a pre-qualification process to confirm that any TV put in the event is of a reasonable performance level as it’s no fun embarrassing any manufacturer.  Just one year I licensed the TV Shootout and an entry level, edge lit tv was supplied by the manufacturer and not aged to be stable or set-up properly to have their TV in the event. It was the stupidest thing to me and it brought down the value and quality of the event.  I believe Vizio’s Quantium -X is not in that category, but I’d like to take a quick look at any TV that will be considered before saying ok.  This event is at comparison of the best of the best.




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DisplayCalNoob 06-01-2019 05:13 PM

Considering the fact, the PQ-X doesn't have any wide angle viewing enhancements. Is being reported, having banding and posterization issues, similar to the 2018 PQ. May turn out being an embarrassing moment for Vizio.

The specs are great 75" has 480 zones, 3000 nits of peak brightness, 97% of P3 gamut and 80% of Rec.2020.

Still not really, enough to compete with the Z9F, Q90R, E9.

I would like to see Dolby Vision and HDR10+ comparisons. With a push for 12 bit panels or 10 bit with dithering (FRC).

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locomo 06-02-2019 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8mile13 (Post 58115192)
so sad:(

Science is sad?
Please, explain how a 2019 LG OLED with{or without the BFI they promised) is better than a CRT or Kuro Plasma when it comes to motion ?

Micolash 06-02-2019 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8mile13 (Post 58115080)
I read this Sony OLED review...it stated ''i have not seen 24fps motion like that in a while''...so forget about LG having better motion than Sony for a while...

Which review was that? I feel Sony OLEDs have the best presentation of 24fps material with their 48Hz BFI mode (which no other OLED manufacturer offers AFAIK) and the closest to what film is supposed to look like. I haven't seen film look this cinematic since watching Blu-ray on the Kuro. Yes, there is some flicker in very bright scenes, but I've gotten used to it.

The standard 5:5 playback may not have judder, but it never looks particularly "filmic" either.

8mile13 06-02-2019 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micolash (Post 58132178)
Which review was that? I feel Sony OLEDs have the best presentation of 24fps material with their 48Hz BFI mode (which no other OLED manufacturer offers AFAIK) and the closest to what film is supposed to look like. I haven't seen film look this cinematic since watching Blu-ray on the Kuro. Yes, there is some flicker in very bright scenes, but I've gotten used to it.

The standard 5:5 playback may not have judder, but it never looks particularly "filmic" either.

That was a avforums review. It was 24fps judder related btw.


motion handling
'' the way the AF8 handles 24fps material without introducing judder is amongst the best we have seen for some time.''
https://www.avforums.com/review/sony...8-review.14562
Quote:

Originally Posted by locomo
Science is sad?
Please, explain how a 2019 LG OLED with{or without the BFI they promised) is better than a CRT or Kuro Plasma when it comes to motion ?

What i mean is that it is sad that they have not seen good 24fps motion (without introducing judder) in a while. Been reading about OLED and its problems with low frame rate, folks say it is Sample&Hold combined with OLEDs fast response time related . Shurely motion on Plasma and CRT is excellent but those are no longer being reviewed.

Thought about it the other day. Since we have several TV techs now reviewers should use that to demonstrate strength and weaknesses of reviewed TVs, that will put things in perspective.

shoman94 06-02-2019 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by helvetica bold (Post 58128356)
Whats the best way to sign up to attend, register for CE Week? Before it was just an email to Robert.


Robert can register anyone who wants to attend the TV Shootout with an all access pass to everything at CE Week, including the panel discussions.  He has a special link that gets them a VIP badge and there is no charge.  The badges will be pre-printed and available for p/u at the registration desk.


The best method is by emailing him, rzohn at valueelectronics dot com and put in the subject line TV Shootout registration request.


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Micolash 06-02-2019 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8mile13 (Post 58132360)
That was a avforums review. It was 24fps judder related btw.


motion handling
'' the way the AF8 handles 24fps material without introducing judder is amongst the best we have seen for some time.''
https://www.avforums.com/review/sony...8-review.14562

What i mean is that it is sad that they have not seen good 24fps motion (without introducing judder) in a while. Been reading about OLED and its problems with low frame rate, folks say it is Sample&Hold combined with OLEDs fast response time related . Shurely motion on Plasma and CRT is excellent but those are no longer being reviewed.

Thought about it the other day. Since we have several TV techs now reviewers should use that to demonstrate strength and weaknesses of reviewed TVs, that will put things in perspective.

I don't think it's that simple. CRT and plasma flash each frame rather than displaying the entire frame at once before moving to the next one like a cinema projector does. I think sample and hold displays combined with BFI seems like the best way to emulate how movies look like in theaters, at least on paper.

8mile13 06-03-2019 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micolash (Post 58132490)
I don't think it's that simple. CRT and plasma flash each frame rather than displaying the entire frame at once before moving to the next one like a cinema projector does. I think sample and hold displays combined with BFI seems like the best way to emulate how movies look like in theaters, at least on paper.

I was talking about 24fps motion not cinematic look. I read in OLED reviews about stutter, mini stutter, frame skipping and stroboscope effect (lower frame rate content).

Aside for avforums flatpanelshd was also very positive about the AF8 motion performance.
''...This setting significantly reduced the infamous stroboscope effect that often shows up with low frame rate video content (such as 24fps movies) on OLED TVs. All in all, this is a very convincing result and without doubt the best motion performance that we have seen on any OLED TV to date. Motion on OLED takes another step forward.''
https://www.flatpanelshd.com/review....&id=1523863026

Micolash 06-03-2019 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8mile13 (Post 58133572)
I was talking about 24fps motion not cinematic look. I read in OLED reviews about stutter, mini stutter, frame skipping and stroboscope effect (lower frame rate content).

Aside for avforums flatpanelshd was also very positive about the AF8 motion performance.
''...This setting significantly reduced the infamous stroboscope effect that often shows up with low frame rate video content (such as 24fps movies) on OLED TVs. All in all, this is a very convincing result and without doubt the best motion performance that we have seen on any OLED TV to date. Motion on OLED takes another step forward.''
https://www.flatpanelshd.com/review....&id=1523863026

Not sure what these guys are talking about. A8F and A1E have the same exact motion settings, one is not better than the other.

Any TV can insert fake frames to "smooth" out 24 fps. I would imagine most of us here when watching film prefer to watch it as close as possible to the way it was created and the way it is shown in theaters. Very few TVs have gotten that right.

8mile13 06-03-2019 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micolash (Post 58134324)
Not sure what these guys are talking about. A8F and A1E have the same exact motion settings, one is not better than the other.

Any TV can insert fake frames to "smooth" out 24 fps.

Just because the motion settings are the same does not mean by definition that the effect is the same on 2017 and 2018 models.

Several reviewers agree that the AF8 does motion somewhat better than other OLEDs. Also plenty of reviewers agree that Sony does motion interpolation better than competition.

Actionable Mango 06-03-2019 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KidHorn (Post 58119082)
So, there's no way to do a quick and dirty auto calibration? Just use a camera connected to a computer hooked up to the TV.

And even if it was manual, there's no way it would add hundreds of dollars to the cost. TVs made in China would cost $10 more at most.

There must be a way. For many years now Dell monitors with "U" in the model name (Ultrasharps) have been factory calibrated. Each monitor even comes with a printout of that specific monitor's calibration results.

Example:
https://www.techspot.com/articles-in...9-14-image.jpg

If factory calibration cost $500-$700, then Dell must love selling monitors for a loss.

Micolash 06-03-2019 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8mile13 (Post 58134422)
Just because the motion settings are the same does not mean by definition that the effect is the same on 2017 and 2018 models.

Several reviewers agree that the AF8 does motion somewhat better than other OLEDs. Also plenty of reviewers agree that Sony does motion interpolation better than competition.

I haven't seen any reviewer conclude that the A8F does motion better than the A1E, other than the one you linked to.

My point about frame interpolation wasn't which brand does it best. You can't turn on frame creation and then claim you are displaying 24 fps "correctly". By definition it is incorrect, whether you like the result or not.

8mile13 06-03-2019 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micolash (Post 58135136)
I haven't seen any reviewer conclude that the A8F does motion better than the A1E, other than the one you linked to.

Flatpanelshd and avforums, i did not check others.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Micolash
My point about frame interpolation wasn't which brand does it best. You can't turn on frame creation and then claim you are displaying 24 fps "correctly". By definition it is incorrect, whether you like the result or not.

I understand that purists feel that way but in practice when there are no side effects like SOE or when side effects/SOE has hardly any impact it does not matter no more...any correct/incorrect discussion becomes irrelevant.

shoman94 06-03-2019 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Actionable Mango (Post 58134828)
There must be a way. For many years now Dell monitors with "U" in the model name (Ultrasharps) have been factory calibrated. Each monitor even comes with a printout of that specific monitor's calibration results.



Example:

https://www.techspot.com/articles-in...9-14-image.jpg



If factory calibration cost $500-$700, then Dell must love selling monitors for a loss.

100% agree. My 2 LG Monitors came with the same data sheets. Perceptually they look exact time the same.

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zoetmb 06-03-2019 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JD23 (Post 58114834)
Nothing against the Z9F, but I'm surprised it is being included given that it was in the shootout last year and did not win. I assume that the A9G and C9 will not be inferior to last year's models.

"Not winning" in these shootouts really doesn't mean much when the vote totals are close. People put way too much into that. I've been to most of the shootouts and every set had advantages and disadvantages. Each year, there was usually one set that was awful, but most of there rest were pretty close. One of the problems is that the voting isn't blind - you know the make and model that you're voting for and there's an inherent bias with people voting for brands/models they like. Also, you have to leave your seats to see the sets properly and some people don't bother.

Bruce2019 06-03-2019 05:13 PM

Of course they get calibrated..

Right on the assembly line, it is a production step..


In this second video you can see a great example.. The usual grey scale test pattern, the meter reads the screen, and on top of there is a screen where you can see that some Data is outputed and propably saved onto the TV..

What they dont do is make readings for every picture mode. They will rather make one reading, and then use this for every picture mode, gamma setting, color, etc.. And this is where the deviation from 100% reference comes from.. Because of the long experience these companies have, ( Millions tv sets each year), they sure know how to messue and get good results with the least amout of steps in production line..


Because Oleds and Qleds are premium price product, they for sure can make more messurements and therefore get a more accurate picture..

Audiguy3 06-03-2019 07:16 PM

I believe Scott Wilkerson will be the MC for the event and there will be 2 8K sets there but not part of the shoot out. But hopes next year will include the 8K

shoman94 06-05-2019 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audiguy3 (Post 58137106)
I believe Scott Wilkerson will be the MC for the event and there will be 2 8K sets there but not part of the shoot out. But hopes next year will include the 8K

Yes sir!

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turnne1 06-05-2019 06:11 PM

They really need to have to Vizio Quantum X in the shootout by any means necessary..LOL

Some people are going to buy LCD's anyway...and frankly only look at them
If they include it in the shootout then it can provide a value statement to the Sony and Samsung entries....similar to what the LG E8 did with the Sony A9 last year

If the Vizio is 95% of the performance( or more) of the Sony and Samsung and is 35-40% less.....that will be a statement in a big way


Warren

mithras1 06-06-2019 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8mile13 (Post 58115080)
I read this Sony OLED review...it stated ''i have not seen 24fps motion like that in a while''...so forget about LG having better motion than Sony for a while...

"As for motion in general, LG's TruMotion system took a big step last year with the introduction of the 'Alpha 9' processor. LG explains that it has made some tweaks to its motion compensation algorithm in the second generation of the processor found in LG C9, E9, W9, Z9, and R9. Last year, we had a chance to compare LG C8 and Sony A8F side-by-side and this year we had a chance to compare LG C9 and Sony A9G side-by-side. Last year, we concluded that LG had more or less caught up with Sony who has been leading the pack for years. The tweaks to TruMotion do not change our conclusion. LG's TruMotion system is much better than it used to be (years ago) but set it too high and you will still encounter the soap opera effect."

https://www.flatpanelshd.com/review....d=1559035462#5
(technically speaking it's still not deemed better than Sony of course)

shoman94 06-06-2019 07:21 PM

YouTuber SpareChange will take care of the live feed of the 2019 TV Shootout. Worldwide viewers can see, hear, ask questions and comment live during the entire event.


Here’s the link to register for the 2019 TV Shootout: 
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PittyH 06-06-2019 09:12 PM

Shouldn't they be covering up the TV's so it's impartial?

shoman94 06-08-2019 04:08 PM

Kevin Miller and John Reformato calibrating the TVs for the 2019 TV Shootout TV.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...370ca9604f.jpg

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jrref 06-09-2019 05:47 PM

I think its John Reformato and Kevin Miller calibrating. Take a close look and see if you can figure out the problem we were trying to solve. 😀

shoman94 06-09-2019 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrref (Post 58162224)
I think its John Reformato and Kevin Miller calibrating. Take a close look and see if you can figure out the problem we were trying to solve. [emoji3]

Profile? White point matching?

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Scott Wilkinson 06-09-2019 08:34 PM

I'm MCing the shootout this year, and I look forward to seeing any AVS Forum members who can attend! It'll be a full day of some serious geeking out!

shoman94 06-09-2019 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson (Post 58162726)
I'm MCing the shootout this year, and I look forward to seeing any AVS Forum members who can attend! It'll be a full day of some serious geeking out!

Looking forward to it! [emoji1360]

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shoman94 06-09-2019 08:39 PM

Roll call; who's going?

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helvetica bold 06-09-2019 08:43 PM

I’m attending! It starts at 9am correct? How long is the shootout event? I have to go to work after. :/


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shoman94 06-09-2019 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by helvetica bold (Post 58162758)
I’m attending! It starts at 9am correct? How long is the shootout event? I have to go to work after. :/


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I think that's when the doors open. I don't know the planned time of start for judging yet. Last year the judging lasted a 3 to 4 hours anyways.....


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jrref 06-10-2019 05:35 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Here is the set up so far at the Javits center.


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