LG Begins Sales of 88Z9 8K OLED TV - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 59 Old 06-06-2019, 12:55 PM
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All I know is that when I replace my 88" FALD (88KS9810 from 2016) it will be at least 88" - preferably larger - and 8K. And the PQ will be better than what I enjoy now.

But I won't pay more than $10k for it. So I'll wait
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post #32 of 59 Old 06-08-2019, 11:17 AM
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post #33 of 59 Old 06-09-2019, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by mrpickem View Post
specs on everything except brightness...lol


https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/7dd9189f
Refresh rate of 120Hz (@ 8K) is a surprise - is that for real or is it a typo?
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post #34 of 59 Old 06-10-2019, 12:40 PM
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I won't buy a 88 inch 8K OLED, until it has passive 3D!
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post #35 of 59 Old 06-10-2019, 02:02 PM
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88 inch 8K OLED. Bye bye projectors! 88 inches becomes immersive enough to ditch pjs, IMO. I just need to wait until prices go down, lol.
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post #36 of 59 Old 06-11-2019, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by 6athome View Post
I won't buy a 88 inch 8K OLED, until it has passive 3D!
LG doesn't care about 3D, nor Samsung or others. 3D is dead for now for flatscreens at home, unless you want projection...
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post #37 of 59 Old 06-11-2019, 03:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
LG doesn't care about 3D, nor Samsung or others. 3D is dead for now for flatscreens at home, unless you want projection...
I'm a little confused, with our great TV leadership, which finally gets 3D right, with the 65C6 OLED,then dumps it.
Looks like my 65C6, will be my last OLED, for a long time.
If they ever get inkjet printing of OLED going,then maybe, they'll have a special run of 3D TV'S, for the OLD FOLK'S.
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post #38 of 59 Old 06-11-2019, 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by 6athome View Post
I'm a little confused, with our great TV leadership, which finally gets 3D right, with the 65C6 OLED,then dumps it.
I don't know for sure, but my best guess is that it's the marketing cycle.

To sell a TV to someone who's got one already, you need to offer them something new. And if it's something everyone's got already, you have to take it away first, to sell an upgrade to that but not quite that (this time we did it right!) on the next upgrade cycle.

Stereoscopic 3D has been independently introduced to the market at least 6 times. Every time it followed the same cycle: idea, hype, demos, lots of content, no more content, no more hardware, wait, new idea.

There was the original Stereoscope in the 1880s, monochrome anaglyphic in the 1920s, color anaglyphic in the 1980s, a wave of stereo HMD in 1995-1999, shutter glasses stereo in 2008-2012, with a few passive outliers, and recently VR in 2016-2018, with the buzz already fizzing out.

The next wave they are working on glasses-free autostereoscopic 3D now - it's finicky and limited in its viewing angles, but it's getting better. I'd expect early to mid 2020s.
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post #39 of 59 Old 06-11-2019, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnalogHD View Post
The next wave they are working on glasses-free autostereoscopic 3D now - it's finicky and limited in its viewing angles, but it's getting better.
Just like they said in:
2011
and 2012
and 2013
and 2014
and 2015
and 2016
and 2017
and 2018
and 2019 (yes, even this year, at CES, as always...!)

Every year from 2011 is the year of the glasses-free autostereoscopic 3D displays.

But it is not!

Apparently, high quality glasses-free autostereoscopic 3D is a tough nut to crack... And we are now in a 3D depression, so it's not a good period for a successful revival...

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I'd expect early to mid 2020s
You are quite an optimist!!!!
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post #40 of 59 Old 06-11-2019, 08:53 AM
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Well pricing is available in Korea: https://www.businessinsider.com/lg-8...s-42000-2019-6

MSRP of 50 million Won which translates to about $42,000

Preorder pricing of 40 million Won which translates to about $34,000

And if you believe John Archer of Forbes, when he originally suggested that the US pre-order price would be $34,000, LG contacted him to 'reliably suggest' it would be $29,999: https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc.../#455820254ec9

"And while LG still felt too shy to include the rather key detail of the 88Z9’s price in its press release announcing the start of the pre-order process, I'm reliably informed that it will be $29,999. "

This is actually a very sensible price for the 88Z9.

It's twice the price of Samsung's 85Q900 and just under half the price of Samsung's 98Q900, signalling that LG's goal this first year out is to sell substantially fewer 88Z9s than Samsung sells 85Q900s but to sell at least 2-10 times as many 88Z9s as Samsung sells 98Q900s.

We're probably talking in the low single-digit thousands in terms of total 88Z9 sales in any case.
Prices in South Korea include 10% sales tax, while prices in the US do not include any sales tax, so $30000 in the US matches quite well with somewhere between $33000 and $34000 in South Korea.

I know I won't be buying one this year.

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post #41 of 59 Old 06-12-2019, 09:02 AM
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I clicked on this thread with so much excitement... then I saw $30k and LOL'ed.


I love PQ... but not that much. I'll stick with my 65" 4K OLED for just a little while longer...

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post #42 of 59 Old 06-12-2019, 10:23 AM
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LG also said the 30k preorder price was a temporary special price and would be going up after launch. Stacey Spears of spectracal said he plans to replace his 90" DLP home tv next year with an 88" oled. he has a Z9D and an OLED at his office where they do most of their work.


i do find it interesting that alot of the big time pros are using older tvs. other examples include David Katzmaier of Cnet still rocks a ZT plasma and Vincent Teoh recently had a ZT plasma also but someone broke into his house and stole it a year or 2 ago.
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post #43 of 59 Old 06-12-2019, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
LG also said the 30k preorder price was a temporary special price and would be going up after launch. Stacey Spears of spectracal said he plans to replace his 90" DLP home tv next year with an 88" oled. he has a Z9D and an OLED at his office where they do most of their work.


i do find it interesting that alot of the big time pros are using older tvs. other examples include David Katzmaier of Cnet still rocks a ZT plasma and Vincent Teoh recently had a ZT plasma also but someone broke into his house and stole it a year or 2 ago.
Obviously because neither of them thinks 4K & HDR is worth anything over reference FHD SDR (at least not yet).
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post #44 of 59 Old 06-12-2019, 10:32 PM
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Some sobering market forecasts: https://observer.com/2019/06/ai-deep...erg-joe-rogan/

"Market researcher WitsView predicted in a recently released report that 8K TVs would account for 0.2 percent of all TV sales this year. Last year, they posted a 0.04 percent market share."

If we assume ~200M TVs sold in 2018 and 2019, this translates to ~80,000 8K TVs sold in 2018 and a forecast of ~400,000 8K TVs sold in 2019.

We know that LG plans to produce ~30,000 88" 8K TVs this year, meaning they would be aiming at capturing ~7.5% of overall 8K TV sales their first year out of the blocks...

If rumors of a late-year launch of 65" 8K WOLEDs by Philips and/or Sony come true, WOLEDs total 8K 2019 market share may push beyond this 7.5% target closer to 10% or more, but 7.5% would be a very respectable toehold in an emerging market.
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post #45 of 59 Old 06-12-2019, 11:53 PM
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In November 2012, the first TVs with 4K resolution went on sale in the United States and the first was the 84" LG 84EM9600.
The list price for the 84" was $20,000. It was an edge-lit LED-based LCD TV, passive 3D display.
At the beginning of 2013, there were still only two 4K TVs, the LG 84EM9600 and the Sony XBR-84X900 (at $25.000), with the same LCD passive 3D panel made by... LG.

6 years later we have the 8K OLED TV.
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post #46 of 59 Old 06-13-2019, 09:51 AM
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comparison chart
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot_2019-06-13 OLED LG 2019 TVs (R9, Z9, W9, C9, B9, E9) review, compare technical specif.png
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77C8PUA ~ Media room
75XBR900F ~ Game room
55XBR900E ~ Bedroom
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post #47 of 59 Old 06-13-2019, 10:43 AM
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Think I'll hold off for 16K. 4K to 8K...just not enough improvement for me tiny wallet to justify. Add their not even 3D capable, so...
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post #48 of 59 Old 06-13-2019, 01:59 PM
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Prices will inevitably come down for this 88 inch monster too, just like the 77 inch. Maybe in 2 or 3 years. Plus there will be even more improvements until then.
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post #49 of 59 Old 06-13-2019, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrpickem View Post
comparison chart
Rhis loks like a cut-and-paste.

Upscaler says 4K on the 88Z9 instead of 8K and while I can believe the 88Z9 supports a 120Hz refresh rate @ 4K resolution, I'm almost certain it will not refresh 8K @ 120Hz...
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post #50 of 59 Old 07-03-2019, 05:45 AM
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I have an LG OLED and I like it but I prefer the look and size of my projection screen and masking system. I have a Sony vpl-vw520es for 2D and an Epson 9600e laser projector for 3D. They are fed by a Panasonic UB9000. Are the blacks as deep as the OLED? No. Is the contrast as high? No. The perceived black levels and contrast on the 9600e get pretty damn close for 3D content though. The overall results of my projection system are still superior to my OLED. The Epson puts out nearly perfect 3D and size really comes into play with that content. There isn't much point to 3D on small screens. Thanks to the wonders of the UB9000, I get absolutely beautiful 2D HDR and SDR content. 4K is amazing. Even upscaled HD Blu-rays and DVDs look great. When I replace my Sony, I anticipate buying something like a native-4K JVC or a nice 4K laser projector that will close the gap on perceived black levels and contrast with OLED. Given the durability of projection screens and the flexibility in size and placement of projectors, I just don't see a place for really big emissive displays. Fixed OLED sets will be really difficult to transport and install once you get above 88-inches. Rollable OLEDs will surely get some market share but they share many of the same issues as fixed OLED TVs. They will be reflective, fragile, fixed in size, and not acoustically transparent. I also like the fact that I can change projectors without changing my screeen and vice versa. Finally, OLED is emissive. Films look good on OLED but they don't look like films. Nothing looks better or more authentic than a quality projector and a unity gain reflective screen.
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post #51 of 59 Old 07-03-2019, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaychatbonneau View Post
Given the durability of projection screens and the flexibility in size and placement of projectors, I just don't see a place for really big emissive displays. Fixed OLED sets will be really difficult to transport and install once you get above 88-inches.
Wall-sized screens (regardless of what tech they use - OLED, LCD, mini/nano LED, etc.) will be a thing in the next years, but projecting that image with a projector (regardless of what tech they use - LED, LASER, etc.) will not be a thing.

This is the way of the world, the emissive displays will take over and in parallel, the transparent displays that act as a window will be everywhere, in our cars, in our homes, in our fridges, etc.

Projectors will have their place, but not the place that many think they will.

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Rollable OLEDs will surely get some market share but they share many of the same issues as fixed OLED TVs. They will be reflective, fragile, fixed in size, and not acoustically transparent.
In time, all the issues can and will be resolved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaychatbonneau View Post
Finally, OLED is emissive. Films look good on OLED but they don't look like films. Nothing looks better or more authentic than a quality projector and a unity gain reflective screen.
With more and more spatial resolution (4K, 8K, etc.) at hand today and in the future years, the motion resolution (frames per second) will be the limiter factor, so HFR and VRR film, video and broadcasting content will become the norm, regardless of the actual Hollywood reticency to go beyond 24fps... So, HFR and VRR content will erase the "film look" and free us from the old "authenticity" of movies.

It will take time, but it will be done, because 4K, 8K and beyond will need and require HFR and VRR!
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post #52 of 59 Old 07-03-2019, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Wall-sized screens (regardless of what tech they use - OLED, LCD, mini/nano LED, etc.) will be a thing in the next years, but projecting that image with a projector (regardless of what tech they use - LED, LASER, etc.) will not be a thing.

This is the way of the world, the emissive displays will take over and in parallel, the transparent displays that act as a window will be everywhere, in our cars, in our homes, in our fridges, etc.

Projectors will have their place, but not the place that many think they will.



In time, all the issues can and will be resolved.



With more and more spatial resolution (4K, 8K, etc.) at hand today and in the future years, the motion resolution (frames per second) will be the limiter factor, so HFR and VRR film, video and broadcasting content will become the norm, regardless of the actual Hollywood reticency to go beyond 24fps... So, HFR and VRR content will erase the "film look" and free us from the old "authenticity" of movies.

It will take time, but it will be done, because 4K, 8K and beyond will need and require HFR and VRR!

Don't count on the issues I mentioned with OLED being resolved anytime soon. That said, a laser light engine and a simple 2K grayscale LCD acting as a dimming mechanism can generate black levels, contrast, and sharpness on a 4K projector that are significantly better than OLEDs. Laser light engines will also allow increased brightness which will drive increased screen sizes. OLEDs are going to completely replace projectors in environments like living rooms but they are not going to get much traction in dedicated home theaters.
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post #53 of 59 Old 07-03-2019, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaychatbonneau View Post
Don't count on the issues I mentioned with OLED being resolved anytime soon. That said, a laser light engine and a simple 2K grayscale LCD acting as a dimming mechanism can generate black levels, contrast, and sharpness on a 4K projector that are significantly better than OLEDs. Laser light engines will also allow increased brightness which will drive increased screen sizes. OLEDs are going to completely replace projectors in environments like living rooms but they are not going to get much traction in dedicated home theaters.
I know I just got back from Egypt, but I'm seeing a lot of DeNile in this post...
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post #54 of 59 Old 07-03-2019, 07:30 AM
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I know I just got back from Egypt, but I'm seeing a lot of DeNile in this post...

There is no denial. This technology has already been implemented by Christie. It is so simple that it is only a matter of time for it to trickle down to high-end home theater projectors. It works so well that you don't even need masking in a light-controlled room.
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post #55 of 59 Old 07-03-2019, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaychatbonneau View Post
There is no denial. This technology has already been implemented by Christie. It is so simple that it is only a matter of time for it to trickle down to high-end home theater projectors. It works so well that you don't even need masking in a light-controlled room.
Significantly better black levels, contrast, and sharpness on a PJ vs an OLED? Ok...
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post #56 of 59 Old 07-03-2019, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaychatbonneau View Post
That said, a laser light engine and a simple 2K grayscale LCD acting as a dimming mechanism can generate black levels,
This is not possible.
A projected image will always have worse levels than OLED, because the projector screen has to reflect light. That's sort of its job. An OLED, LCD or LED can be made as black as desired. They are black, while screens are at best gray. Thus, less light is reflected off the room walls and then a direct display, vs a projection one.

Quote:
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contrast,
False for the same reason: worse black levels.
Realistically also worse highlights levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaychatbonneau View Post
and sharpness on a 4K projector that are significantly better than OLEDs.
This is physically impossible.
Reflected light will always be less sharp than direct light.
Light scatters multiple times in a projector: on the LCOS/LCD chip, in the lens, in the air, and on+inside the reflective surface.

The only current technology that can be marginally sharper than LCD or OLED is Sony CLEDIS, which uses tiny LED, which leaves larger black gaps between the pixels, which can manifest as added sharpness.

I don't know what kind of kool-aid you've been smoking (you clearly weren't even drinking it per the manual), but the above is above and beyond unrealistic illusions and straight into the land of recovering perpetuum mobile from the ancient astronauts.
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post #57 of 59 Old 07-05-2019, 11:24 AM
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$34k or $30k is a joke. Hard Pass

These will get get down to $5K in about threes. Possibly less. They will be absolutely grand for gaming.
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post #58 of 59 Old 07-05-2019, 11:30 AM
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Ha, at $300k for just 2 seats, Ferrari can't even compete with other luxury cars priced n the high five figures! I'd like to see your Ferrari pull a 4,000+ lbs trailer the F-150 Raptor is capable of.






Yes, we both know what the answer to that is going to be. The people who buy top of the line OLED don't care for towing trailers with them, because that would defeat the purpose - to get the best picture in the best movie viewing environment, which is a light-controlled room. And it's not their only TV, so they may well have one of those 85" LCD panels in another room for casual daytime viewing.

HDR looks way better on LG OLEDs than super bright LCD sets, even the ones with really good FALD. Black levels are simply way more important than brightness in determining PQ. Pair an OLED with a really good player like the Panasonic UB9000 that can partially are fully pre-process HDR and you get a picture that is DYNAMITE.
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post #59 of 59 Old 07-05-2019, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnalogHD View Post
This is not possible.
A projected image will always have worse levels than OLED, because the projector screen has to reflect light. That's sort of its job. An OLED, LCD or LED can be made as black as desired. They are black, while screens are at best gray. Thus, less light is reflected off the room walls and then a direct display, vs a projection one.


False for the same reason: worse black levels.
Realistically also worse highlights levels.


This is physically impossible.
Reflected light will always be less sharp than direct light.
Light scatters multiple times in a projector: on the LCOS/LCD chip, in the lens, in the air, and on+inside the reflective surface.

The only current technology that can be marginally sharper than LCD or OLED is Sony CLEDIS, which uses tiny LED, which leaves larger black gaps between the pixels, which can manifest as added sharpness.

I don't know what kind of kool-aid you've been smoking (you clearly weren't even drinking it per the manual), but the above is above and beyond unrealistic illusions and straight into the land of recovering perpetuum mobile from the ancient astronauts.

Wrong. Christie has already demoed laser projectors that defeat or equal OLEDs on every single metric of PQ. They have already announced an expensive (but not as expensive as you might think) home version of this technology. Eventually, the technology used, which I have already described, will go off-patent or get licensed out by Christie to manufacturers of more affordable projectors. FYI test results of the Christie projector technology in question from highly respected members of this forum have been posted here on AVS Forums and they clearly support what I am telling you.



Wrong. Direct fire laser projectors and laser projectors that use DMDs are just as sharp as, if not more sharp, than an OLED. That said, I don't necessarily think sharpness adds to PQ after a certain point. In fact, I think after a certain point sharpness detracts from PQ. I like that projectors are slightly soft.
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