50" Pioneer Kuro or a new 55" B8? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 62 Old 06-03-2019, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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50" Pioneer Kuro or a new 55" B8?

I am in the market for a new TV and found someone selling a 50" pioneer krp 500m that is ISF calibrated by D-Nice for $200. I am torn between this choice or shelling out $1500 for a new B8 (perhaps cheaper if I can find it?). The kuro looks to be in great condition. I don't know enough about how to value the new OLEDs and if the picture is worth the extra price tag. Thoughts?
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post #2 of 62 Old 06-03-2019, 11:12 AM
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Well the OLED is going to be a lot better in almost every way. And I've personally owned a KRP-500M, so I know exactly what you are talking about and how great they are.

KRP Pros:
Cheap. Better motion than OLED. Assembled in USA and very well built. It is physically much stronger.

KRP Cons:
It won't do HDR and 4K. It won't be bright. It will be heavy and thick. The display is 10% smaller. The huge bezels will look dated. We are talking about a TV that's eleven years old now--it could give up any day now. Power supplies, capacitors--these things have a life time. And that's assuming it's been treated well. It could also have BI, tens of thousands of hours, and botched service settings (some people in the KURO forum are messing with settings that they really shouldn't mess with). Who knows what's going on with that TV.

Whether it is worth the $1300 price difference or not...well, that's a really personal decision. To me the OLED is easily worth the price difference.
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post #3 of 62 Old 06-03-2019, 11:23 AM
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With all due respect to my departed Kuro, this really isn't a contest. I gave up my 60" kuro for a 65" sony OLED a few months back and never looked back.

The kuro will be significantly dimmer, flatter looking, and probably buzz intermittently in high brightness scenes. Only place it will beat the OLED will be motion.


M

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post #4 of 62 Old 06-03-2019, 11:26 AM
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Once you see quality 4K HDR, you will most likely forget about that vintage plasma real quick.
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post #5 of 62 Old 06-03-2019, 11:30 AM
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What are you going to be using the TV for/what kind of environment? Could money be an issue at any point in the near future?


If mostly cable TV/non-4k content and not a super bright living space, the Kuro might not be a bad choice if you don't really have the $$ to drop on a B8. Having owned (non-Kuro) Plasmas and OLEDs, for my viewing habits (99% 1080p SDR content in a dark room), the jump was pretty big in terms of PQ (though, the motion was worse). Was that jump worth a 750% increase in price? Probably not, though $1700 [$200 + 1500?] for a 55" B8 seems high; I can find an E8 for less than that new. Any reason those are your two options? Seems like a pretty big gap between $200 plasma and ~$2000 OLED.
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post #6 of 62 Old 06-03-2019, 11:45 AM
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I'd take the $200 Kuro and upgrade to OLED when you have more 4k HDR content.
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post #7 of 62 Old 06-03-2019, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediMindTrick View Post
What are you going to be using the TV for/what kind of environment? Could money be an issue at any point in the near future?


If mostly cable TV/non-4k content and not a super bright living space, the Kuro might not be a bad choice if you don't really have the $$ to drop on a B8. Having owned (non-Kuro) Plasmas and OLEDs, for my viewing habits (99% 1080p SDR content in a dark room), the jump was pretty big in terms of PQ (though, the motion was worse). Was that jump worth a 750% increase in price? Probably not, though $1700 [$200 + 1500?] for a 55" B8 seems high; I can find an E8 for less than that new. Any reason those are your two options? Seems like a pretty big gap between $200 plasma and ~$2000 OLED.
Its going to be my main living room TV. Money will be no issue, I can easily afford the OLED, its more about being conscious of buying something that I don't need when a good option exists otherwise. I don't game much (I do own a ps4 but I haven't used it in months), and my viewing will mostly be ~1 hour max per night watching netflix (sometimes not at all). I do have gigabit internet and can start downloading 4K movies (might watch a movie once every few weeks on it as well). Other than that, I might watch sports here and there but not too often. I can get the B8 for $1500, not sure what other options I'd have? I don't really want to buy a cheaper OLED (say closer to the $800 price point) mainly because if I'm going the OLED route, I want one of the best. I'm either going to get this Kuro as a way to buy time until I upgrade, or I'm going to upgrade to a really good OLED.
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post #8 of 62 Old 06-03-2019, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arian Karbasi View Post
Its going to be my main living room TV. Money will be no issue, I can easily afford the OLED, its more about being conscious of buying something that I don't need when a good option exists otherwise. I don't game much (I do own a ps4 but I haven't used it in months), and my viewing will mostly be ~1 hour max per night watching netflix (sometimes not at all). I do have gigabit internet and can start downloading 4K movies (might watch a movie once every few weeks on it as well). Other than that, I might watch sports here and there but not too often. I can get the B8 for $1500, not sure what other options I'd have? I don't really want to buy a cheaper OLED (say closer to the $800 price point) mainly because if I'm going the OLED route, I want one of the best. I'm either going to get this Kuro as a way to buy time until I upgrade, or I'm going to upgrade to a really good OLED.
I would only consider the Kuro if your budget were truly limited. Others have already mentioned all the cons with getting a used Pioneer. Even if you could somehow get a new one, I wouldn't recommend it. It was amazing 10 years ago, but it would not look good next to today's displays playing 4K/HDR content.

If you can spend more, then don't get the B8 either. I'd go for the A9F or A9G. If you can afford the best, then go for the best.

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post #9 of 62 Old 06-03-2019, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Micolash View Post
If you can spend more, then don't get the B8 either. I'd go for the A9F or A9G. If you can afford the best, then go for the best.
This right here. I had a 500M for 10 years and loved it, but finally upgraded to a 65" A9F about a month ago and it's no contest. I mean, not even close. The real surprise is how great 1080p sources look, and I think the prevailing wisdom that plasma has noticeably better motion is debatable.

Sony's processing is quite good.
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post #10 of 62 Old 06-04-2019, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Micolash View Post

If you can spend more, then don't get the B8 either. I'd go for the A9F or A9G. If you can afford the best, then go for the best.

good advice. I recently got the 55C8 at a steal of a price and a weakness of the set is upscaling of lower resolution Content. I'm hearing the C9 improved on this but Sony will be the best for cable TV as far as Oleds go.
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post #11 of 62 Old 06-04-2019, 05:44 AM
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There are folks who own both who prefer the kuro. Also some folks regret they went from a kuro to a OLED. The 500M has a natural picture and natural motion that is why some prefer it over modern LCD/OLED. The 500M blacks have some glow which OLED blacks do not have, OLED blacks are black no glow whatsoever.

Modern UHD TVs have HDR capability. There isn't a lot of content and it is also not cheap. Lots of people who buy such UHD TV will mainly watch HD and SD dispite them telling how wonderful HDR is..

The kuro will look best in the dark. It might be better that it has less than 10,000 hours, that can be checked. A $200 KRP 500M with low hours optimised by D-Nice calibration is basically for free...Currently Sony seems to be the best all round OLED on the market. Sony's asks most money for their OLEDs.
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post #12 of 62 Old 06-04-2019, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
There are folks who own both who prefer the kuro. Also some folks regret they went from a kuro to a OLED. The 500M has a natural picture and natural motion that is why some prefer it over modern LCD/OLED. The 500M blacks have some glow which OLED blacks do not have, OLED blacks are black no glow whatsoever.

Modern UHD TVs have HDR capability. There isn't a lot of content and it is also not cheap. Lots of people who buy such UHD TV will mainly watch HD and SD dispite them telling how wonderful HDR is..

The kuro will look best in the dark. It might be better that it has less than 10,000 hours, that can be checked. A $200 KRP 500M with low hours optimised by D-Nice calibration is basically for free...Currently Sony seems to be the best all round OLED on the market. Sony's asks most money for their OLEDs.

As a former Kuro owner I haven't looked back since getting my two OLEDs. Interesting how the plasma (you've spent a lot of time being critical of something you've never owned) folks keep using these same arguments to somehow make themselves feel better. $3.99 to rent a 4k UHD movie on iTunes is a killer or a couple of extra bucks on Netflix
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post #13 of 62 Old 06-04-2019, 11:58 AM
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At first I thought you were asking if you should jump to an OLED as a current 500M owner. Reading it again I say go for the OLED at this point. I'd be worried about an old panel as other's have mention and the image an OLED can give you is pretty amazing. I am a former D-Nice calibrated 500M owner and loved it until I got the itch to upgrade. That being said if I knew what I was going to go through to get a decent OLED panel that has minimal vertical banding and tint I might have waited even longer to upgrade. Anyway, OLED all the way. Good luck!

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post #14 of 62 Old 06-04-2019, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
As a former Kuro owner I haven't looked back since getting my two OLEDs. Interesting how the plasma (you've spent a lot of time being critical of something you've never owned) folks keep using these same arguments to somehow make themselves feel better. $3.99 to rent a 4k UHD movie on iTunes is a killer or a couple of extra bucks on Netflix
I described how some owners of both techs felt. Owners of a Plasma and OLED. I was close buying a OLED myself recently. So i do not need to make me feel better owning a Plasma since i am looking for something new. Also you totally misrepresent how much a Blu-ray or UHD blu-ray costs. Plenty of fresh movies on Blu-ray cost inbetween 20 and 30 euro. And that is just Blu-ray. A UHD Blu-ray costs twice as much.
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I have owned a Pioneer plasma and upgraded to OLED. the difference is significant. Plasma was the best during it's time, but it's no match for OLED. Blu ray looks better and HDR is eye opening. You can easily find a UHD player for less than $200, and plenty of UHD discs for less than $20 used on ebay. That's what I do. Many times I can find just the UHD disc, without the BD and digital code for $10. If you don't care for discs, as a previous poster said, you can rent UHD on iTunes for $5.99.

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Motion concern

I too am a Kuro owner, going on year twelve. I've been holding out on OLED over what I'm reading and hearing about regarding 'motion'. How different is motion on OLED's particularly with BluRay and broadcast sports? Is the motion issue potentially resolved with HDMI 2.1?
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post #17 of 62 Old 06-04-2019, 03:39 PM
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I also went from KURO to OLED.

In my opinion motion is way better on plasma, at least compared to LG's OLED. (I haven't seen Sony's OLED motion so I cannot speak for that.)

That being said, the OLED is so much better in every other way that overall it is no contest. The only way to pick plasma as superior is if one felt that better motion was more important than a massive improvement in everything else combined.
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post #18 of 62 Old 06-04-2019, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mikeyf View Post
I too am a Kuro owner, going on year twelve. I've been holding out on OLED over what I'm reading and hearing about regarding 'motion'. How different is motion on OLED's particularly with BluRay and broadcast sports? Is the motion issue potentially resolved with HDMI 2.1?
OLED motion has two main challenges:
1. Sample and hold causes eye tracking motion blur, it shares this challenge with LCD. Like LCD this can be mitigated with black frame insertion. But so far most implementations of BFI on OLED have suffered drawbacks like flickering or the requisite of using motion interpolation to avoid flickering. BFI works best if it matches the content frame rate, which makes it great for 120fps sources like PC video games, but some find it flickers at 60fps, and it's useless at 24fps.

2. Near instaneous pixel response of OLED is great for high frame rates but can make the judder inherent to low frame rate 24fps movies more pronounced. This can be mitigated by good video processing which can blur the transition between frames, or by motion interpolation (which has its own flaws).


HDMI 2.1 will have little to nothing to do with improvement on these issues. Besides perhaps, it's compatibility with high frame rate sources.

Most advances will be made in video processors and BFI, and perhaps the nature of OLED panels themselves.


Any sample and hold display will always have to surmount these challenges that impulse displays like plasma and CRT don't suffer.

Edit: it's worth noting that many don't find any issues with the motion of OLED. The sensitivity to these motion issues is widely variable. 99% of the public deal with sample and hold LCD with zero mitigations and have no complaints.
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post #19 of 62 Old 06-05-2019, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyf View Post
I too am a Kuro owner, going on year twelve. I've been holding out on OLED over what I'm reading and hearing about regarding 'motion'. How different is motion on OLED's particularly with BluRay and broadcast sports? Is the motion issue potentially resolved with HDMI 2.1?
When I first bought my LG C7 a couple of generations ago, the motion really bothered me to the point of it being headache inducing. I ended up with a 2017 A1E after a couple of issues and I haven’t been bothered by motion issues since. Seems no different to me than my plasma at this point. The good news is it seems motion on the LGs have gotten better over the past couple of years according to reviews. I wouldn’t worry about it.

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post #20 of 62 Old 06-05-2019, 07:46 AM
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I actually saw the Sony OLED AF9 A9F in the store running a HDR demo loop yesterday. Noticed micro stutter twice...which looks to me like reduced (source related) stutter using motion interpolation.

Also want to mention that according to D-Nice, who ownes several OLEDs, when comparing a tweaked 500M level kuro to a OLED in SDR main difference will only been seen in content with lots of darkness in it like starfields.
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post #21 of 62 Old 06-05-2019, 08:53 AM
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As a former kuro owner, and current sony oled, I don't miss ANYTHING from the kuro. I was a plasma fanboy day one. Was disappointed when they stopped manufacturing them. But then....OLED! Kicks plasmas arse...other than motion. And honestly? After watching OLED for a week, you won't even miss the motion. Just get the OLED.

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post #22 of 62 Old 06-05-2019, 09:26 AM
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Went from a 500m to sony 65A1E and yes sony is better in most areas.But I kept my 500m and its still amazing for what it does.Dont have any problems with it at this point either.

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post #23 of 62 Old 06-05-2019, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Arian Karbasi View Post
ISF calibrated by D-Nice

I would tend to put little value on this element, unless it was recent, which wouldn't seem to make sense. I'm not familiar with plasma, yet I think all TVs tend to change to some extent over time, so there's no guarantee the TV retains a calibrated gray. My LCD-based TVs have appeared to have changed at least a color temp setting or more through the years, presuming my spectrophotometer remains fairly accurate as suggested (it hasn't had the calibration rechecked). I can't say how plasma might tend to change in relation to LCD over time. Personally I'd just go with the OLED, but I also passed on plasma when they were being sold.

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post #24 of 62 Old 06-05-2019, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I ended up getting the plasma. I figure its so cheap I can easily hold out for a good OLED deal to come up. I personally think it looks amazing and am very happy with the decision. I will definitely be getting an OLED for my next tv though!
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post #25 of 62 Old 06-05-2019, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
I described how some owners of both techs felt. Owners of a Plasma and OLED. I was close buying a OLED myself recently. So i do not need to make me feel better owning a Plasma since i am looking for something new. Also you totally misrepresent how much a Blu-ray or UHD blu-ray costs. Plenty of fresh movies on Blu-ray cost inbetween 20 and 30 euro. And that is just Blu-ray. A UHD Blu-ray costs twice as much.
Sure but now you want to argue about the price of UHD HDR content with Americans who pay far far less for content than you do. Not to be rude but not our problem you are getting ripped off in Euro land.

iTunes has $2.99 fairly new HDR releases available for rental in this market and that's where 99% of AVS regulars live.

So for you maybe OLED or UHD HDR upgrade makes little sense.

Color accuracy on my plasma was better on my Plasma and it had a slightly more uniform white point... some of that can be fixed with calibration, the plasma was calibrated but my OLED is running pretty much factory settings.

For "wow" factor there's no comparison, the family wants to forget we ever owned a plasma.

Anyone want a great deal on a 65VT30 with no stand?
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post #26 of 62 Old 06-05-2019, 01:29 PM
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Sure but now you want to argue about the price of UHD HDR content with Americans who pay far far less for content than you do. Not to be rude but not our problem you are getting ripped off in Euro land.

iTunes has $2.99 fairly new HDR releases available for rental in this market and that's where 99% of AVS regulars live.
The USA is a big market place. In Europe one has lots of countries, dispite there being a EU open market place each has their own releases of movies with their own subtitles and maybe even english language replaced with native language. So smaller markets plus added costs...

Anyway UHD content will cost you up to 40 euro for one movie. And like in the past with HD most people will rarely watch best content available for a UHD TV may it be in the USA may it be in Europe or elsewere.
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So for you maybe OLED or UHD HDR upgrade makes little sense.
I almost bought a Panasonic OLED recently. Not happy about motion...looking into Sony OLED.. Not interested in HDR UHD at this point. At some point one buys a new TV and for me now might be a good time. I could wait for another 5 years but i am not a sort of person who sticks with a TV for 10 years(my current TV is 4/5 years old).
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Color accuracy on my plasma was better on my Plasma and it had a slightly more uniform white point... some of that can be fixed with calibration, the plasma was calibrated but my OLED is running pretty much factory settings.

For "wow" factor there's no comparison, the family wants to forget we ever owned a plasma.

Anyone want a great deal on a 65VT30 with no stand?
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post #27 of 62 Old 06-05-2019, 04:39 PM
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As an OLED owner who upgraded from a Kuro 9G with modified blacks... OLED isn't worth the price difference. I'd rather go for the $200 Kuro. The picture quality difference between my 2016 OLED and Kuro is a complete draw when it comes to 1080p SDR, with the OLED surpassing it in PQ when it gets fed by 4K HDR content (though this is almost insignificantly small). The Kuro wins whenever the material is 720p broadcast, 1080i channels, DVDs or sport streams. If there's ambient light the OLED win decisively. Now there's been a few upgrades from 2019 OLED to 2016 OLED, but I'd argue the brand new 9 series OLEDs are about 20-25% better than the Kuro PQ wise.


Kuro's, only with most high-end PDPs still destroy OLED when it comes to motion, and if change black levels in the service menu with an RS232 cable you pretty much get OLED blacks / infinite contrast, and 'perfect' SDR image.
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post #28 of 62 Old 06-05-2019, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Arian Karbasi View Post
I ended up getting the plasma. I figure its so cheap I can easily hold out for a good OLED deal to come up. I personally think it looks amazing and am very happy with the decision. I will definitely be getting an OLED for my next tv though!
I think its a good choice. $200 is nothing, and the Kuro PDP (in dark room) pretty much destroys any LCD that's not the Sony ZD9 or Samsung Q9FN, and even against those I think it fairs well. and that's at 1/10th the price.

Keep the Kuro a year or two, and be ready to upgrade to OLED which hopefully can reach 1000 nits by then...
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post #29 of 62 Old 06-05-2019, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by SnellTHX View Post
As an OLED owner who upgraded from a Kuro 9G with modified blacks... OLED isn't worth the price difference. I'd rather go for the $200 Kuro. The picture quality difference between my 2016 OLED and Kuro is a complete draw when it comes to 1080p SDR, with the OLED surpassing it in PQ when it gets fed by 4K HDR content (though this is almost insignificantly small). The Kuro wins whenever the material is 720p broadcast, 1080i channels, DVDs or sport streams. If there's ambient light the OLED win decisively. Now there's been a few upgrades from 2019 OLED to 2016 OLED, but I'd argue the brand new 9 series OLEDs are about 20-25% better than the Kuro PQ wise.


Kuro's, only with most high-end PDPs still destroy OLED when it comes to motion, and if change black levels in the service menu with an RS232 cable you pretty much get OLED blacks / infinite contrast, and 'perfect' SDR image.
If the OP were considering a used 2016 LG OLED, this comparison might make sense, but pretty much everything you're claiming about plasma vs. OLED is outdated. My 500M is sitting in the corner waiting for a buyer. The A9F that replaced it is superior in every way except motion, and thanks to Sony's processing, that one's a draw.

SDR on the A9F is outstanding. Upscaling and processing of broadcast material is excellent and clean 1080p material would fool most people into thinking they're watching 4K. Native 4K HDR is stunning. And considering you'd be lucky to get 100 nits out of a 10-year-old plasma, the increase in brightness really adds that wow factor to OLED and makes the best use of those deep blacks for maximum contrast.
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post #30 of 62 Old 06-06-2019, 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by SnellTHX View Post
if change black levels in the service menu with an RS232 cable you pretty much get OLED blacks / infinite contrast, and 'perfect' SDR image.
Seriously? Sorry, not even close. I own both, and every time I watch my modified kuro in my bedroom, I instantly notice the glowing black.
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