LG C9 eARC Info Thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #271 of 809 Old 06-23-2019, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
Jack Ryan 4K is indeed coming up with Atmos on the Denon.
Can you clarify if this is DD+Atmos or TrueHD Atmos? The C9 Amazon App won't pass TrueHD for me.
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post #272 of 809 Old 06-23-2019, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
So does that mean the games are PCM and if one of the bit stream formats is chosen the PS4 is encoding the audio on the fly or that all of the games have multiple soundtracks?
If games want to use bitstream formats they have to encode on the fly, as they don't know in advance what sounds will arise during gameplay and these will need to be mixed in. Audio encoding introduces a bit of delay and so PCM is preferred where supported.
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post #273 of 809 Old 06-23-2019, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by harync View Post
Can you clarify if this is DD+Atmos or TrueHD Atmos? The C9 Amazon App won't pass TrueHD for me.
Amazon doesn't have TrueHD, only DD+ (I don't think any of the streaming services have lossless audio?). Also none of the TV apps can pass HD audio at the moment. Jack Ryan on the C9 Amazon app shows up as Atmos/DD+ for me.
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post #274 of 809 Old 06-23-2019, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
Compatibility across all mfrs for eARC is still a pipe dream for some. Some say you need CEC enabled, some say you don't, and some say that even if you disable CEC, there is still a communication going on that COULD mess with eARC. There is just no way of knowing until you try. A lot of tv's still can not pass uncompressed HD Audio from an external source via ARC or eARC to a receiver and/or soundbar. The internal apps should work for eARC between the tv and receiver/soundbar but even that is currently having some issues for some.
Though the internal apps will not play/pass HD audio formats, as I understand it.
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post #275 of 809 Old 06-23-2019, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by peterjcat View Post
Amazon doesn't have TrueHD, only DD+ (I don't think any of the streaming services have lossless audio?). Also none of the TV apps can pass HD audio at the moment. Jack Ryan on the C9 Amazon app shows up as Atmos/DD+ for me.
Anyone care to guess which streaming vendor will be the first to support lossless audio? My guess is Netflix. They seem to be the first for almost everything...

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post #276 of 809 Old 06-23-2019, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by lujan View Post
Anyone care to guess which streaming vendor will be the first to support lossless audio? My guess is Netflix. They seem to be the first for almost everything...
I'll put my bet on Apple's upcoming service to be the first with HD audio. They may well not produce anything worth watching, but dang it'll sure sound awesome!

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post #277 of 809 Old 06-23-2019, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
I completed swap out of my Denon X4400H to the Denon X4500H and can report preliminary test results and some interesting findings.

1. Completed hardware swap and setup of Denon X4500H.
2. During X4500H did not elect to set up TV audio which leaves ARC and HDMI control turned off.
10. On C9 toggle from HDMI ARC to HDMI eARC and passthrough.
11. X4500H displays HD audio tracks.
jmpage2 thanks for all the awesome testing and helping to get to the bottom of this. There is lots of great investigating going on, but as mentioned there is still conflicting information from some thats making my brain hurt.

I have a simple question for C9 owners with the X4500. Is it required to have ARC and HDMI control set to off on the Denon to get this to work? Or does e-Arc just plain work on the 4500? dfa973 seems to indicate in the owners thread both must be set to off, but I am not sure if thats how it must be done or if he is just reposting your results.

Reason I ask is I actually enjoy the benefits of HDMI control and would like to use the LG remote across devices assuming I can still get HD audio.
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post #278 of 809 Old 06-23-2019, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Jacob R. View Post
jmpage2 thanks for all the awesome testing and helping to get to the bottom of this. There is lots of great investigating going on, but as mentioned there is still conflicting information from some thats making my brain hurt.

I have a simple question for C9 owners with the X4500. Is it required to have ARC and HDMI control set to off on the Denon to get this to work? Or does e-Arc just plain work on the 4500? dfa973 seems to indicate in the owners thread both must be set to off, but I am not sure if thats how it must be done or if he is just reposting your results.

Reason I ask is I actually enjoy the benefits of HDMI control and would like to use the LG remote across devices assuming I can still get HD audio.
Yeah, dfa should not have included that blurb. That is only for enabling eARC without HDMI control. Connect the 4500 with the various settings turned on and HDMI will work fine (well, as fine as it ever works anyway)
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post #279 of 809 Old 06-24-2019, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Jacob R. View Post
I have a simple question for C9 owners with the X4500. Is it required to have ARC and HDMI control set to off on the Denon to get this to work? Or does e-Arc just plain work on the 4500? dfa973 seems to indicate in the owners thread both must be set to off, but I am not sure if thats how it must be done or if he is just reposting your results.
If you want to use a single remote for the whole HDMI chain of devices you do not need to disable SimpLink or HDMI Control, of course. @jmpage2 needed to use a universal remote, he did not want to use CEC at all.

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Yeah, dfa should not have included that blurb. That is only for enabling eARC without HDMI control. Connect the 4500 with the various settings turned on and HDMI will work fine (well, as fine as it ever works anyway)
I have updated the list, so it is more clear.

Updated list for known AVRs vs LG C9 eARC

AVRs known to work with LG C9 eARC
2018 generation
- Denon AVR-X3500H
- Denon AVR-X4500H (*2)
- Denon AVR-X6500H
- Pioneer VSX-LX503 (*1)
- Yamaha RX-V685 (*1)
2019 generation
- Denon AVR-S750H (*3)
- Denon AVR-X1600H (*4)

AVRs known to not work with LG C9 eARC
2017 generation
- Denon AVR-X3400H
- Denon AVR-X4400H (*5)
- Denon AVR-X6400H (*6);
- Marantz SR7012 (*7)

Notes:
(general) - all the 2018 or 2019 Denon/Marantz eARC models are expected to work just fine;
(general) - all the 2017 Denon/Marantz eARC models are expected to NOT work, this is NOT the LG's fault, but Denon/Marantz fault (Denon/Marantz support should be contacted ASAP to let them know and resolve this problem);
*1) requires HDMI Control/CEC=ON on the receiver for eARC to work;
*2) if you do not need SimpLink/HDMI Control (you use an universal remote) eARC works (ignoring the TV Audio setup) with CEC=OFF and ARC=OFF on Denon and eARC=ON on C9 (also works about the same with the 2018 Sony A9F/AF9 OLED eARC TV, with CEC=OFF on both and ARC=OFF on Denon), this setup should work with all the 2018/2019 Denon/Marantz eARC models;
*3) requires SimpLink=ON on the C9 and HDMI Control=ON on the S750H for eARC to work (but with the TV Audio setup?);
*4) also works with 2019 Sony X950G eARC TV;
*5) on TV Audio is capable of only Stereo with the 2018 Sony A9F/AF9 OLED eARC TVs internal apps, HD audio does pass-through!);
*6) on TV Audio is capable of only Stereo with the C9
*7) also no HD audio with the 2018 Sony A9F/AF9 OLED eARC TVs internal apps/Plex

Samples for testing the ARC/eARC link:
- lots of HD audio samples are available to download in the Kodi wiki - bitstreaming or uncompressed LPCM files are included;
https://kodi.wiki/view/Samples
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Last edited by dfa973; 06-24-2019 at 12:39 AM.
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post #280 of 809 Old 06-24-2019, 12:42 AM
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Thanks for the clarification guys!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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post #281 of 809 Old 06-24-2019, 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
...
(general) - all the 2017 Denon/Marantz eARC models are expected to NOT work, this is NOT the LG's fault, but Denon/Marantz fault (Denon/Marantz support should be contacted ASAP to let them know and resolve this problem);
...

Samples for testing the ARC/eARC link:
- lots of HD audio samples are available to download in the Kodi wiki - bitstreaming or uncompressed LPCM files are included;
https://kodi.wiki/view/Samples
As I've mentioned before, I have contacted Denon about the X6400H and was told by 2nd level support that the 2017 and 2018 models have the same firmware with regards to eARC. It did no good in my instance but it doesn't hurt for others with the 2017 Denon models to call as well and maybe one day they will listen?

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post #282 of 809 Old 06-24-2019, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by lujan View Post
As I've mentioned before, I have contacted Denon about the X6400H and was told by 2nd level support that the 2017 and 2018 models have the same firmware with regards to eARC. It did no good in my instance but it doesn't hurt for others with the 2017 Denon models to call as well and maybe one day they will listen?
Even you can write an email to Denon, reminding them about your case, that they refused to acknowledge the problem, that you have encountered other owners with 2017 generation AVR that do not work and they should take in consideration this problem.

And every 2017 Denon/Marantz owner should write to support.

The more owners, the better!
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post #283 of 809 Old 06-24-2019, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lujan View Post
As I've mentioned before, I have contacted Denon about the X6400H and was told by 2nd level support that the 2017 and 2018 models have the same firmware with regards to eARC. It did no good in my instance but it doesn't hurt for others with the 2017 Denon models to call as well and maybe one day they will listen?
Yes, when I reported my problem to Denon they were shocked it wasn't working and commented "we tested it and know it works".

It's also possible that whatever the issue is will have to be fixed by both Denon and by display makers.

If Denon tested this in their lab but display makers are failing to get it to work then there could be some subtle difference in the capability negotiation exchange (capneg) going on between the TVs and the 2017 Denon/Marantz gear and it will have to be worked out between manufacturers.
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post #284 of 809 Old 06-24-2019, 07:36 AM - Thread Starter
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First post updated to reflect more accurate picture of current implementation.

Second reserved post updated with @dfa973 information (with credit given) for current supported device configuration information.
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post #285 of 809 Old 06-24-2019, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Can you clarify if this is DD+Atmos or TrueHD Atmos? The C9 Amazon App won't pass TrueHD for me.
I don't believe the Denon indicates what flavor of Atmos it is but I assume it's DD+ Atmos because no streaming services support anything other than low bit-rate Atmos stuffed into a DD+ signal at this time.

Worth pointing this out because it is a misconception that eARC will provide for HD audio from streaming sources from the TV, when this is not supported by any streaming service at this time. eARC primary function/benefit right now is still the ability to deliver HD audio from sources like game consoles, disc players, etc.
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post #286 of 809 Old 06-24-2019, 08:24 AM
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I'm not sure what that means and will have time to check it out more thoroughly later but I see that it was requested so here it is. To be honest, I'm actually a little surprised that it works this way, I would have guessed that eARC would become non-functional with ARC turned off.
It means that the Denon and Sony do not need CEC for eARC to work. Don't be surprised as that's how it's supposed to work.

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I hope this is helpful and answers some questions and if you have more I'll be around later today to try whatever.
That was immensely helpful. Thank you!

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Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
That does seem to be the case and any other test scenarios you folks would like me to try just post away.
That makes me 99.9% certain that CEC is not being used. The only other test would be a CEC-less cable but don't worry about it if you're not comfortable making one.
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post #287 of 809 Old 06-24-2019, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
eARC was introduced in firmware update version 2.016 for Sony HT-Z9F soundbar.
Also the Sony HT-ST5000 in firmware M40.R.0444.

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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
There are not many eARC soundbars, actually...
I checked out the specs listed for the various sound bars that have it and they don't list eARC which makes it difficult to find out if a soundbar has it or not. Plus the fact that "search" has "earc" in it doesn't help.
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post #288 of 809 Old 06-24-2019, 08:44 AM
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I checked out the specs listed for the various sound bars that have it and they don't list eARC which makes it difficult to find out if a soundbar has it or not. Plus the fact that "search" has "earc" in it doesn't help.
If the soundbar was marketed initially without eARC - and then eARC was added with a firmware update - the eARC is not mentioned usually by the manufacturers, for whatever reasons.

Thus, to find eARC soundbars you must search for eARC firmware updates, not for specific models with eARC.
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post #289 of 809 Old 06-24-2019, 08:49 AM
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Isn’t TV eARC-to-soundbar eARC supposed to ASSURE that compatibility? Or am I mistaken?
In theory yes. In practice no. LG (and some other manufacturers) have chosen to tie the enabling of eARC to the enabling of CEC. So if there is any CEC incompatibilities then eARC will no work if you can't turn off just CEC in the soundbar.

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And, by the way, if all external sources connect to HDMI inputs on the C9, then you would connect the TV eARC input to the soundbar eARC output to OUTPUT sound from TV to soundbar, because eARC (or any ARc) is bidirectional, correct?
ARC and eARC are not bidirectional. The run opposite to the normal video and audio signal so they go from input to output. So yes, that's how you connect things.

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post #290 of 809 Old 06-24-2019, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
X4500H displays HD audio tracks.
With those two option off in the Denon it shows that the C9 does not need CEC to do eARC (or at least only needs a voltage on that pin). So LG just needs to separate eARC out from CEC/ARC in their configuration.
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post #291 of 809 Old 06-24-2019, 08:56 AM
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If the soundbar was marketed initially without eARC - and then eARC was added with a firmware update - the eARC is not mentioned usually by the manufacturers, for whatever reasons.
That's just lazy marketing people. Denon has updated their product specs on their 2017 and 2018 AVRs.

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Thus, to find eARC soundbars you must search for eARC firmware updates, not for specific models with eARC.
Yup. That's how I found the other Sony soundbar.

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post #292 of 809 Old 06-24-2019, 08:59 AM
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ARC and eARC are not bidirectional. The run opposite to the normal video and audio signal so they go from input to output. So yes, that's how you connect things.

I'm not sure why I find this confusing, but I do.

If I'm running my sources (XBX, ATV 4k, etc) into my eARC capable receiver (which I don't have yet), and then to my C9, shouldn't I just be running out from the eARC capable receiver into HDMI2 on the C9?
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post #293 of 809 Old 06-24-2019, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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With those two option off in the Denon it shows that the C9 does not need CEC to do eARC (or at least only needs a voltage on that pin). So LG just needs to separate eARC out from CEC/ARC in their configuration.
I don't necessarily disagree but now you start getting into issues around UI design and how LG feels they can best deliver the features to their users.

99% of users don't even understand what these features are. Their expectation would be that if you tell the TV you have an AVR/soundbar and you tell the AVR you have a smart TV that the two devices will negotiate the best implementation of features possible, which for most users is going to be eARC + CEC control.

The challenge comes when people implement as above and something is not working as expected.

OR you have users (maybe 15%) who have the desire to use the new audio return channel implementation but want all HDMI control turned off as they want to use some other automation/control setup (smart remote, etc.).
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If I'm running my sources (XBX, ATV 4k, etc) into my eARC capable receiver (which I don't have yet), and then to my C9, shouldn't I just be running out from the eARC capable receiver into HDMI2 on the C9?
No, because eARC is not used in this configuration.


XBX, ATV 4k, etc ---(regular HDMI video and audio)--> AVR ---(regular HDMI video)--> C9


Where eARC is used is in this setup:


XBX, ATV 4k, etc ---(regular HDMI video and audio)--> C9 ---(eARC)--> AVR
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post #295 of 809 Old 06-24-2019, 09:14 AM
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I don't necessarily disagree but now you start getting into issues around UI design and how LG feels they can best deliver the features to their users.
Normally I'd agree with that but eARC has been promoted as not requiring or depending on CEC or ARC. Having eARC as a separate option, or no config option at all, would not be confusing.

LG screwed up. Plain and simple. eARC is supposed to be plug and play.

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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
99% of users don't even understand what these features are. Their expectation would be that if you tell the TV you have an AVR/soundbar and you tell the AVR you have a smart TV that the two devices will negotiate the best implementation of features possible, which for most users is going to be eARC + CEC control.
Denon did it the best way UI wise. They did not even include eARC in their config. If the device detects an eARC capable device on the other end it uses eARC. Can't be more simple from an end user perspective.

The main reason that CEC remote control is not usually enabled automatically without a config option or enabled by default when there is a config option is because of all the compatibility issues. Having it on by default would cause more tech support calls than having it off by default.

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post #296 of 809 Old 06-24-2019, 10:16 AM
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I don't believe the Denon indicates what flavor of Atmos it is but I assume it's DD+ Atmos because no streaming services support anything other than low bit-rate Atmos stuffed into a DD+ signal at this time.

Worth pointing this out because it is a misconception that eARC will provide for HD audio from streaming sources from the TV, when this is not supported by any streaming service at this time. eARC primary function/benefit right now is still the ability to deliver HD audio from sources like game consoles, disc players, etc.
To further complicate matters, when I feed an Atmos/TrueHD signal from a Blu-Ray player to the Denon, the output signal is indicated (on the AVR Remote app) as "Atmos", not Atmos/TrueHD. Which Atmos is anyone's guess.
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post #297 of 809 Old 06-24-2019, 10:18 AM
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LG screwed up. Plain and simple. eARC is supposed to be plug and play.
It is, sort of. That is basically what jmpage did. He connected his AVR without doing any setup on the C9 other than selecting HMDI2 as audio output.

Running setup on C9 enables CEC. If you go though setup, there is no way to avoid turning on CEC, even though it asks if you want it on or not. If you tell it you don't want CEC (SimpLink) on, it still sets up CEC, but then it won't send audio to the AVR. (this is where they screwed up)

LG kind of implemented it correctly, just in a very confusing non-intuitive way. Hopefully they will get their act together and clean it up in a firmware update.

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post #298 of 809 Old 06-24-2019, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by mhmercer View Post
To further complicate matters, when I feed an Atmos/TrueHD signal from a Blu-Ray player to the Denon, the output signal is indicated (on the AVR Remote app) as "Atmos", not Atmos/TrueHD. Which Atmos is anyone's guess.
When my Denon gets TrueHD it displays as "DTHD"

LG 65" C9; Denon AVR-S750H
5.1.2: Emotiva Airmotiv C2, T-Zero (x2), E1 (x4); HSU VTF-2
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post #299 of 809 Old 06-24-2019, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
I don't believe the Denon indicates what flavor of Atmos it is but I assume it's DD+ Atmos because no streaming services support anything other than low bit-rate Atmos stuffed into a DD+ signal at this time.

Worth pointing this out because it is a misconception that eARC will provide for HD audio from streaming sources from the TV, when this is not supported by any streaming service at this time. eARC primary function/benefit right now is still the ability to deliver HD audio from sources like game consoles, disc players, etc.
I know that the C9 internal TV apps do not support lossless audio, but is it true that no streaming services such as Netflix provide any lossless audio at this time? (That is, even the ATMOS sound streamed by Netflix provided by a Roku connected to a soundbar would be lossy ATMOS?)

If so, then in my non-AVR setup where I will probably only be watching shows and movies from cable and streaming via Roku from Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, YouTube, it wouldn’t make much difference for me to look for an eARC soundbar from another manufacturer and hope for/test for compatibility when I still wouldn’t be getting lossless video.

Unless I did so hoping that in the future, some streaming providers starting streaming lossless audio.

One more question: if my vacation home set up would be a only sound bar and sub, with or without small wireless rears, will the difference in sound between lossless and lossy audio even be noticeable?
If yes, then maybe the eARC soundbar makes sense for hoped-for future streaming lossless audio (and it might be worth trying the Sony z9F for compatibility as long as I can take it back).
If no, then sticking with the LG SL8YG for compatibility (hopefully) might be sufficient.

I was hoping to buy one today to take down to the vacation home this week, so any final opinions would be most appreciated!
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post #300 of 809 Old 06-24-2019, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhmercer View Post
To further complicate matters, when I feed an Atmos/TrueHD signal from a Blu-Ray player to the Denon, the output signal is indicated (on the AVR Remote app) as "Atmos", not Atmos/TrueHD. Which Atmos is anyone's guess.
Yes this is a limitation of Denon's implementation since it doesn't appear to show what the carrier codec is for Atmos only that Atmos is being delivered.
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