LG C9 eARC Info Thread - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rmgrenley View Post
I know that the C9 internal TV apps do not support lossless audio, but is it true that no streaming services such as Netflix provide any lossless audio at this time? (That is, even the ATMOS sound streamed by Netflix provided by a Roku connected to a soundbar would be lossy ATMOS?)
Yes, it is true that no streaming services are currently delivering HD audio. Keep in mind that HD audio streams can run 5-10mbps by themselves and that's on top of the bandwidth needed to deliver the 4K HDR video with H.265 encoding.

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If so, then in my non-AVR setup where I will probably only be watching shows and movies from cable and streaming via Roku from Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, YouTube, it wouldn’t make much difference for me to look for an eARC soundbar from another manufacturer and hope for/test for compatibility when I still wouldn’t be getting lossless video.
The only reason someone with your usage might choose an eARC capable piece of hardware is for "future proofing".

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Unless I did so hoping that in the future, some streaming providers starting streaming lossless audio.
Yup.

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One more question: if my vacation home set up would be a only sound bar and sub, with or without small wireless rears, will the difference in sound between lossless and lossy audio even be noticeable?
If yes, then maybe the eARC soundbar makes sense for hoped-for future streaming lossless audio (and it might be worth trying the Sony z9F for compatibility as long as I can take it back).
If no, then sticking with the LG SL8YG for compatibility (hopefully) might be sufficient.
I think it would depend on which sound bar as obviously there is a world of difference between an inexpensive $300 sound bar and the really high end ones from Yamaha and others that can have as many as 20+ speakers and deliver 500 watts.

I know that on my audio system (PSB R/L/C/SR/SL speakers plus Infinity bi-directional rear height channels and a decent HST subwoofer) the difference between the higher bit-rate audio tracks and the low bit-rate tracks is quite dramatic.

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I was hoping to buy one today to take down to the vacation home this week, so any final opinions would be most appreciated!
I am a proponent of the "buy once cry once" school of thought but I also only update my gear every 5-7 years. If someone swaps things out much more frequently then buying a "future proof" device is less of a concern.
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post #302 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Baff View Post
When my Denon gets TrueHD it displays as "DTHD"
I've played Atmos tracks that are definitely the high quality THD carrier stuff (The Matrix and others) and the only thing that's ever displayed on the front panel is "Atmos".
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post #303 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Bluewookie View Post
I'm not sure why I find this confusing, but I do.

If I'm running my sources (XBX, ATV 4k, etc) into my eARC capable receiver (which I don't have yet), and then to my C9, shouldn't I just be running out from the eARC capable receiver into HDMI2 on the C9?
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Originally Posted by avernar View Post
No, because eARC is not used in this configuration.


XBX, ATV 4k, etc ---(regular HDMI video and audio)--> AVR ---(regular HDMI video)--> C9


Where eARC is used is in this setup:


XBX, ATV 4k, etc ---(regular HDMI video and audio)--> C9 ---(eARC)--> AVR
I apologize if this should be obvious, but if that is the case, what does using eARC really do for me?

I can understand the use cases when a sound bar is being used, but I really don't see many benefits to using with an AVR?
  • Maybe higher quality audio from the C9 internal apps, if they ever start passing higher quality audio.
  • Protection against AVR not handling a particular type of video signal correctly.

Is there something else I'm missing here?
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post #304 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Baff View Post
It is, sort of. That is basically what jmpage did. He connected his AVR without doing any setup on the C9 other than selecting HMDI2 as audio output.
Not entirely accurate.

If you don't set up the AVR at all then the TV defaults to using TV speakers. You must go into the Audio settings menu (advanced one) and you must enable ARC on HDMI as the audio output, then you must flip the toggle from ARC to eARC inside of that.

It's still far from intuitive and there's definitely room for improvement.

Many consumers just want to use the TV remote control and many of them will buy a sound bar or other low-mid level home theater gear. In these cases if they take the "auto configured" setup that they get from LG then CEC and ARC will be turned on, and they would have to go in and toggle eARC manually.

I'm not aware of any setup LG is doing right now that will automatically detect that the destination soundbar or AVR is eARC capable and automatically select eARC as the output, it always must be done manually.

Use of CEC + eARC also introduces its own unique issues more than likely as you could have the HD audio working but have confusion between the TV and AVR about things like volume control, switching sources.... pretty much all the normal CEC headaches... which is why I chose to just disable it completely and try my luck with using a quality universal remote control.
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post #305 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bluewookie View Post
I apologize if this should be obvious, but if that is the case, what does using eARC really do for me?

I can understand the use cases when a sound bar is being used, but I really don't see many benefits to using with an AVR?
  • Maybe higher quality audio from the C9 internal apps, if they ever start passing higher quality audio.
  • Protection against AVR not handling a particular type of video signal correctly.

Is there something else I'm missing here?
There is functionally zero difference between an AVR and sound bar. A sound bar is literally an AVR inside of a box with speakers and functions exactly like an AVR with separate connected speakers.

Please read the 1st post in this thread as it is chock full of answers to "why do I care about eARC".
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post #306 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Baff View Post
It is, sort of. That is basically what jmpage did. He connected his AVR without doing any setup on the C9 other than selecting HMDI2 as audio output.

Running setup on C9 enables CEC. If you go though setup, there is no way to avoid turning on CEC, even though it asks if you want it on or not. If you tell it you don't want CEC (SimpLink) on, it still sets up CEC, but then it won't send audio to the AVR. (this is where they screwed up)

LG kind of implemented it correctly, just in a very confusing non-intuitive way. Hopefully they will get their act together and clean it up in a firmware update.
No, they did not implement it correctly. You should not have to run a setup to get eARC to work (CEC issues or not).

It's super simple. When the TV detects an eARC device powered on on the other end of the HDMI2 connection it should turn off its internal speakers and send audio to that device. That is the proper way to do eARC. It looks like the Denon and Sony work this way out of the box.
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post #307 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
I hope this is helpful and answers some questions and if you have more I'll be around later today to try whatever.
On your last screen shot of the Sony audio setting, did it default to Auto?
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post #308 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
Yes this is a limitation of Denon's implementation since it doesn't appear to show what the carrier codec is for Atmos only that Atmos is being delivered.
If you have a small HDMI capable computer monitor handy can you display the info screen on the second HDMI out from the Denon?
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post #309 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Bluewookie View Post
Protection against AVR not handling a particular type of video signal correctly.
This mainly. When devices with HDMI 2.1 features start coming out people would have to upgrade their AVRs to all the pass through of those features.

The other reason is to have different input settings on the TV for each of the devices connected.
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post #310 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by avernar View Post
If you have a small HDMI capable computer monitor handy can you display the info screen on the second HDMI out from the Denon?
I've asked this question in the appropriate sub-forum but the answer appears to be no.... the 2nd monitor output from the 4500H has to have the exact same display capabilities as the primary display.

It would have been a killer feature to be able to use the 2nd HDMI out as a status port that displayed the OSD, volume control, what codec is being received, etc, and probably wouldn't be difficult to do but it's not possible.
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post #311 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
It would have been a killer feature to be able to use the 2nd HDMI out as a status port that displayed the OSD, volume control, what codec is being received, etc, and probably wouldn't be difficult to do but it's not possible.
I'm not at home to check and can't remember since it's been a while, but what does the iOS/Android app display?
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post #312 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

I am a proponent of the "buy once cry once" school of thought but I also only update my gear every 5-7 years. If someone swaps things out much more frequently then buying a "future proof" device is less of a concern.

Yep. I don't believe in "future proofing" because it's almost impossible with everything from cables to panels. 5-7 years is about right for replacing and upgrading components. I'm also not an early adopter. Been down that road once. If you plan carefully, upgrading components, other than cost, is easy to do. I am a firm believer of plug and play .

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post #313 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
Yep. I don't believe in "future proofing" because it's almost impossible with everything from cables to panels. 5-7 years is about right for replacing and upgrading components. I'm also not an early adopter. Been down that road once. If you plan carefully, upgrading components, other than cost, is easy to do. I am a firm believer of plug and play .
The problem is that if someone is buying a new AVR this year to go with their 4K HDMI 2.1 TV then they are in a bit of a bind. After all, they know that there will be no sources with HDMI 2.1 capabilities coming out late next year but currently there are no HDMI 2.1 AVRs available. They also know that HDMI 2.1 AVR implementation might also have some initial problems and limitations around supported bandwidth, number of full bandwidth ports, etc.

So, do you buy a "throwaway" 4K AVR for $500-$1000 right now and buy a new one in 1-2 years when there are capable AVRs on the market that fully implement the features properly?

Or do you buy one today that has eARC so you can connect your next gen consoles and other sources to the TV and pass the HD audio on to that AVR and hopefully not have to upgrade it for the normal 5-6 years?

That's the dilemma.

And I won't even get into all the historic problems with AVRs doing stupid things like messing with lip sync, messing with color depth of sources, changing frame-rates (converting 23.976 to 60 fps or convertring it to 24.000)... being limited on having different calibrations for different input sources, etc.

There is 100% a legitimate case for a working audio return channel from the TV and running some of the sources through that.
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post #314 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
Yes, it is true that no streaming services are currently delivering HD audio. Keep in mind that HD audio streams can run 5-10mbps by themselves and that's on top of the bandwidth needed to deliver the 4K HDR video with H.265 encoding.



The only reason someone with your usage might choose an eARC capable piece of hardware is for "future proofing".



Yup.



I think it would depend on which sound bar as obviously there is a world of difference between an inexpensive $300 sound bar and the really high end ones from Yamaha and others that can have as many as 20+ speakers and deliver 500 watts.

I know that on my audio system (PSB R/L/C/SR/SL speakers plus Infinity bi-directional rear height channels and a decent HST subwoofer) the difference between the higher bit-rate audio tracks and the low bit-rate tracks is quite dramatic.



I am a proponent of the "buy once cry once" school of thought but I also only update my gear every 5-7 years. If someone swaps things out much more frequently then buying a "future proof" device is less of a concern.
I appreciate your answers...very helpful.

I think for me, in my desired simple non-AVR setup, and given size and room constraints and what I am willing to spend for the soundbar, it is between the non-eARC LG SL8YG (with or probably without wireless rears) for hopefully compatibility, versus the eARC Sony z9F (with or probably without wireless rears) for “future-proofing” but with compatibility a question (that might require returning it to store.)

If I thought the sonic difference of lossy vs lossless (assuming lossless streaming in the future) between those two soundbars was negligible, I would probably choose the LG for compatibility and buy it today.

(That is, unless the LG soundbars’ compatibility/functionality with LG TVs is itself open to question!!)
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post #315 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rmgrenley View Post
I appreciate your answers...very helpful.

I think for me, in my desired simple non-AVR setup, and given size and room constraints and what I am willing to spend for the soundbar, it is between the non-eARC LG SL8YG (with or probably without wireless rears) for hopefully compatibility, versus the eARC Sony z9F (with or probably without wireless rears) for “future-proofing” but with compatibility a question (that might require returning it to store.)

If I thought the sonic difference of lossy vs lossless (assuming lossless streaming in the future) between those two soundbars was negligible, I would probably choose the LG for compatibility and buy it today.

(That is, unless the LG soundbars’ compatibility/functionality with LG TVs is itself open to question!!)
I'd probably get the Sony (they have a somewhat better reputation for audio quality than LG does) and just return it if they don't play well together.
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post #316 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by avernar View Post
I'm not at home to check and can't remember since it's been a while, but what does the iOS/Android app display?
I haven't tried it with this generation gear yet but with my X4000H it didn't give much in the way of info.
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post #317 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
I've played Atmos tracks that are definitely the high quality THD carrier stuff (The Matrix and others) and the only thing that's ever displayed on the front panel is "Atmos".
That is odd. It is clear from your photos that you are getting DTS:HD & DTS:X, so it certainly isn't an issue of you not getting HD audio passed through.

My 750 has only 1 display line for both audio format and source, yet I get more exact format info for TrueHD, though with greater abbreviation. Perhaps an improvement Denon made between 2018 & 2019? Though it seems like they could have fixed that via firmware, if that is the case.

Though, Jack Ryan 4K only shows as (Dolby Symbol) followed by DD+ for me. I assume the Dolby symbol is short for Atmos in this case, but I'm not sure.

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post #318 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 12:20 PM
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Actually, I just looked in the Denon iphone app and it expands the "(Dolby Symbol) followed by DD+" to be "Dolby Audio - Dolby Digital Plus", no mention of Atmos. You should certainly take a look at the newest version of the app to see if it gives any more info about the TrueHD.
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post #319 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Baff View Post
That is odd. It is clear from your photos that you are getting DTS:HD & DTS:X, so it certainly isn't an issue of you not getting HD audio passed through.

My 750 has only 1 display line for both audio format and source, yet I get more exact format info for TrueHD, though with greater abbreviation. Perhaps an improvement Denon made between 2018 & 2019? Though it seems like they could have fixed that via firmware, if that is the case.

Though, Jack Ryan 4K only shows as (Dolby Symbol) followed by DD+ for me. I assume the Dolby symbol is short for Atmos in this case, but I'm not sure.
I definitely got Atmos out of Jack Ryan when I tested it at the request of another user.

I see your tip above on using the app to get more info, I will give that a shot, thanks.
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post #320 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 12:45 PM
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I definitely got Atmos out of Jack Ryan when I tested it at the request of another user.
Out of curiosity, I switched over to your CECless setup, but it still displays as DD+. Though while I was making the transition, the tv switched to tv speakers and displayed the Dolby Atmos box up in the top right, so I am getting Atmos, just not displaying as such on the AVR. I'm guessing that in 2018 Denon saw Atmos as the most important detail and abbreviated several formats down to that, and now in 2019 they see it as less important and only mention DTHD or DD+ and don't mention the Atmos.

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post #321 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
The problem is that if someone is buying a new AVR this year to go with their 4K HDMI 2.1 TV then they are in a bit of a bind. After all, they know that there will be no sources with HDMI 2.1 capabilities coming out late next year but currently there are no HDMI 2.1 AVRs available. They also know that HDMI 2.1 AVR implementation might also have some initial problems and limitations around supported bandwidth, number of full bandwidth ports, etc.

So, do you buy a "throwaway" 4K AVR for $500-$1000 right now and buy a new one in 1-2 years when there are capable AVRs on the market that fully implement the features properly?

Or do you buy one today that has eARC so you can connect your next gen consoles and other sources to the TV and pass the HD audio on to that AVR and hopefully not have to upgrade it for the normal 5-6 years?

That's the dilemma.

And I won't even get into all the historic problems with AVRs doing stupid things like messing with lip sync, messing with color depth of sources, changing frame-rates (converting 23.976 to 60 fps or convertring it to 24.000)... being limited on having different calibrations for different input sources, etc.

There is 100% a legitimate case for a working audio return channel from the TV and running some of the sources through that.
I agree. ARC, and even CEC were, and still are great ideas. eARC was the next logical step but somehow, at least to me, HDMI logic became questionable. Somewhere along the line, the pooch got screwed and the consumer is left to do the beta testing or have components that just don't play nicely together, again.

A dilemma fer sure.

I would still like to see the device mfrs actually list which of the HDMI 2.1 options are available on their products instead of just saying "HDMI 2.1". Folks may be interested in, or have need for, options other than eARC and VRR, or at least know that they have devices that have the same feature sets.

I'm not going to fret about it. All my components were purchased in late 2018 (except for the ATV4k) so they are what they are. They meet my needs now and for the foreseeable future.

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post #322 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 01:11 PM
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On your last screen shot of the Sony audio setting, did it default to Auto?
I honestly don't remember as I had checked out the function last October after getting the display.
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post #323 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 01:41 PM
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No, they did not implement it correctly. You should not have to run a setup to get eARC to work (CEC issues or not).

It's super simple. When the TV detects an eARC device powered on on the other end of the HDMI2 connection it should turn off its internal speakers and send audio to that device. That is the proper way to do eARC. It looks like the Denon and Sony work this way out of the box.
I've been playing around the last couple hours trying things in different orders to see what triggers things.

Okay, so the mistake they made is that the eARC setting is a sub-setting of ARC and it is off by default (we've known that from the beginning). Once it is turned on, it seems to auto-detect and switch over just fine and play HD audio, as long as ARC is also activated on the Denon (HDMI Control can be set to on or off (which is good)). There are certainly some significant beta level flaws in the way they did things, but there is some auto-detection and switching going on without running LGs Device Connection setup.

Hopefully, they can fix the ARC dependance via firmware. They can certainly fix the issue of requiring CEC in Device Connection, since that is an obvious programming error that ignores the user's yes/no response.

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post #324 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been playing around the last couple hours trying things in different orders to see what triggers things.



Okay, so the mistake they made is that the eARC setting is a sub-setting of ARC and it is off by default (we've known that from the beginning). Once it is turned on, it seems to auto-detect and switch over just fine and play HD audio, as long as ARC is also activated on the Denon (HDMI Control can be set to on or off (which is good)). There are certainly some significant beta level flaws in the way they did things, but there is some auto-detection and switching going on without running LGs Device Connection setup.



Hopefully, they can fix the ARC dependance via firmware. They can certainly fix the issue of requiring CEC in Device Connection, since that is an obvious programming error that ignores the user's yes/no response.


You do not need ARC enabled on the Denon for EARC to function.


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post #325 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 01:45 PM
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You do not need ARC enabled on the Denon for EARC to function.
Correct, but it seems to be needed for the C9 to auto-detect and auto-switch over.

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post #326 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 01:54 PM
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Hopefully, they can fix the ARC dependance via firmware. They can certainly fix the issue of requiring CEC in Device Connection, since that is an obvious programming error that ignores the user's yes/no response.
It doesn't need it low level. It's just a config screen issue for the most part. If they can make it an independent option in the config screen so ARC can be left off that would be perfect.
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post #327 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Correct, but it seems to be needed for the C9 to auto-detect and auto-switch over.


Could you be more specific?

I have had no issues with ARC turned off on the Denon and no connection set up on the C9.


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post #328 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 02:06 PM
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I'd probably get the Sony (they have a somewhat better reputation for audio quality than LG does) and just return it if they don't play well together.
Well, I just bought the Sony z9F soundbar, as well as the wireless rear surrounds, and this week we will head down to the vacation home and I will set it up. I got their assurance that I could return it for refund when I get back in a few weeks if they don’t “play well together” eARC to eARC.

Thank you all for your help, and I will let you know how it goes.
Here’s hoping!
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post #329 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I just bought the Sony z9F soundbar, as well as the wireless rear surrounds, and this week we will head down to the vacation home and I will set it up. I got their assurance that I could return it for refund when I get back in a few weeks if they don’t “play well together” eARC to eARC.



Thank you all for your help, and I will let you know how it goes.

Here’s hoping!


With your feedback we can update the second post in the thread. Make sure to update firmware on all devices and make sure on the C9 the hdmi arc output is toggled to “EARC”


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post #330 of 770 Old 06-24-2019, 02:56 PM
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Could you be more specific?

I have had no issues with ARC turned off on the Denon and no connection set up on the C9.
With C9 audio set to tv speakers, and the Denon ARC turned off, I unplug it from the tv, plug it back in. The tv does not respond. I turn Denon ARC back on and the C9 detects it and switches audio over to HDMI2

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