LG C9 eARC Info Thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 817 Old 06-20-2019, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NismoZ View Post
Thanks for the time and report there! Makes us feel better at least. If Sony fixes theirs, it also may put some pressure on LG to fix it.


If it’s similarly broken on Sony (earlier reports seemed to imply it was working) then it becomes more likely this is a Denon issue.

Sony has had their EARC implementation released for nine months and Denon about the same time.


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post #182 of 817 Old 06-20-2019, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
If it’s similarly broken on Sony (earlier reports seemed to imply it was working) then it becomes more likely this is a Denon issue.
Damn, how do we keep getting all these LG apologists in here?

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post #183 of 817 Old 06-20-2019, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by harync View Post
Is CEC also off in the 4500H?
On the Denon, I'll refer you to the following paragraph from the Denon 2018 thread,

Spoiler!


Short and sweet, in order for the Denon to playback display sourced audio the ARC setting must be set to "On" in the Denon HDMI setup section as seen in the below image. There is no actual "CEC setting" on the Denon, if the connected device supports CEC then the Denon will respond appropriately. At least that how I understand it, as I noted earlier, I don't ever use CEC on the Sony display.
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post #184 of 817 Old 06-20-2019, 03:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
On the Denon, I'll refer you to the following paragraph from the Denon 2018 thread,



Spoiler!




Short and sweet, in order for the Denon to playback display sourced audio the ARC setting must be set to "On" in the Denon HDMI setup section as seen in the below image. There is no actual "CEC setting" on the Denon, if the connected device supports CEC then the Denon will respond appropriately. At least that how I understand it, as I noted earlier, I don't ever use CEC on the Sony display.


CEC on the Denon is HDMI control as they wisely separated the two years ago.


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post #185 of 817 Old 06-20-2019, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by harync View Post
Pardon me if I missed this in all the discussion, but do the 2018 Denon/Marantz receivers require CEC to be engaged for eARC to work?

For my Pioneer VSX-LX503, since eARC was enabled via firmware upgrade, I'm thinking that Pioneer/Onkyo found it easiest to shoe-horn eARC in the CEC Menu sub-system. I'm wondering if Denon did the same thing for their 2017 models, vs. the 2018 models where they could design it with eARC as a separate function from the ground up?
I have the 2017 Denon and the very first time I got the C9 I was told that it had to be ON so I turned it ON. It (eARC) still didn't work with CEC ON so the answer to your question is "No".

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post #186 of 817 Old 06-20-2019, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
Short and sweet, in order for the Denon to playback display sourced audio the ARC setting must be set to "On" in the Denon HDMI setup section as seen in the below image. There is no actual "CEC setting" on the Denon, if the connected device supports CEC then the Denon will respond appropriately. At least that how I understand it, as I noted earlier, I don't ever use CEC on the Sony display.
All that long paragraph said was that CEC must be on for ARC to work. That applies to all devices and not just the Denon so nothing new there.

It also said that eARC was added via a firmware update. It doesn’t say eARC needs CEC.

With ARC turned off in the Denon does eARC still work for you? I just want to confirm that Denon didn’t tie eARC to the ARC menu option. It’s not a bad thing entirely as the CEC Control functions (AKA HDMI Control) can be turned off in the Denon. But with ARC turned on, CEC must be on as well and that can cause compatibility issues.

With both devices having it off would confirm that the Denon doesn’t need it either and no under the table CEC communication is happening. To be 100% sure a CEC-less cable or adapter needs to be tested with the two.

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post #187 of 817 Old 06-20-2019, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
CEC on the Denon is HDMI control as they wisely separated the two years ago.
Not quite, the CEC Control functions are HDMI Control on the Denon. Turning on HDMI Control or ARC in the Denon would turn on CEC as both of those features require the low level CEC protocol.
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post #188 of 817 Old 06-21-2019, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by harync View Post
Pardon me if I missed this in all the discussion, but do the 2018 Denon/Marantz receivers require CEC to be engaged for eARC to work?
From the @Keenan response, the answer is NO, it's 2018 Denon X4500H has HDMI Control (CEC) OFF (from the screenshot) and a working eARC from its Sony TV (that also has Bravia Sync (CEC) OFF.

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Originally Posted by harync View Post
For my Pioneer VSX-LX503, since eARC was enabled via firmware upgrade, I'm thinking that Pioneer/Onkyo found it easiest to shoe-horn eARC in the CEC Menu sub-system. I'm wondering if Denon did the same thing for their 2017 models, vs. the 2018 models where they could design it with eARC as a separate function from the ground up?
Both 2017 and 2018 generation of Denon/Marantz receivers have separate settings for ARC and CEC (HDMI Control) but it seems that in the 2017 generation the eARC is not quite the same implementation as in the 2018 models. So the 2017 Denon situation might mirror your Pioneer VSX-LX503 situation.

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Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
CEC is called Bravia Sync on the Sony and it is off, I never use CEC. With CEC off eARC works just fine including passage of LPCM(5.1/7.1) along with all the other usual formats.

This is with a Denon AVR-4500H(2018 model year) and a Sony A9F 65" OLED(2018 model year) and using an OPPO 203 as the source device. Content used to test was various lossless files via the local network and the Blade Runner 2049 UHD disc(DTS-HD MA 7.1) and the Annihilation UHD disc(Dolby Atmos).

eARC works independently/autonomously of CEC on the Sony display.
Thank you! So you have CEC disabled of both devices (TV+AVR) and eARC is working without CEC.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Some conclusions regarding LG C9 with its eARC drama:

1. the 6/8 channels LPCM missing EDID is LGs fault, and it should be resolved by LG;
2. the 2017 Denon/Marantz receivers have a real problem with their eARC and it shows with both LG and Sony eARC TVs;
3. the 2018/2019 Denon/Marantz receivers work fine with both LG and Sony eARC TVs;
4. we still need to confirm with an eARC working 2018/2019 Denon receiver if CEC can be disabled on both C9 and AVR and that eARC is still working, just as in the Sony case;


Updated list for known AVRs vs C9 eARC

AVRs known to work with C9 eARC

- Pioneer VSX-LX503 - 2018 - (requiers CEC=ON on the receiver for eARC to work)
- Denon AVR-X3500H - 2018
- Denon AVR-4500H - 2018 - (also works with the 2018 Sony A9F/AF9 OLED eARC TV, with CEC=OFF on both)
- Denon AVR-X6500H - 2018
- Yamaha RX-V685 - 2018 - (requiers CEC=ON on the receiver for eARC to work)

- Denon AVR-S750H - 2019
- Denon AVR-X1600H - 2019 - (also works with 2019 Sony X950G eARC TV)


AVRs not working with C9 eARC
- Denon AVR-X3400H - 2017
- Denon AVR-X4400H - 2017 - (on TV Audio is capable of only Stereo with the 2018 Sony A9F/AF9 OLED eARC TVs internal apps, HD audio does pass-through!);
- Denon AVR-X6400H - 2017 - (on TV Audio is capable of only Stereo with the C9);
- Marantz SR7012 - 2017 - (also no HD audio with the 2018 Sony A9F/AF9 OLED eARC TVs internal apps/Plex)
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post #189 of 817 Old 06-21-2019, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by avernar View Post
With both devices having it off would confirm that the Denon doesn’t need it either and no under the table CEC communication is happening. To be 100% sure a CEC-less cable or adapter needs to be tested with the two.
I don't know if @Keenan has a CEC-less cable or adapter, but with C9 and Pioneer VSX-LX503 cutting the CEC bus between those two has also cut the eARC, but there is a caveat - the Pioneer VSX-LX503 requires that it's CEC setting to be ON (it does not work with CEC=OFF as the 2018 Denon X4500H does).

Not every manufacturer has done the same job on the ARC, eARC and CEC implementation in their devices, so, as I said before, we can't just blame one device or brand for this mess...
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post #190 of 817 Old 06-21-2019, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
From the @Keenan response, the answer is NO, it's 2018 Denon X4500H has HDMI Control (CEC) OFF (from the screenshot) and a working eARC from its Sony TV (that also has Bravia Sync (CEC) OFF.
This is not correct. He has the CEC remote control functions disabled but still has ARC turned on in his screenshot. ARC requires CEC so CEC and the sound related messages are still enabled. HDMI Control only turns off the remote control messages.

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Thank you! So you have CEC disabled of both devices (TV+AVR) and eARC is working without CEC.
CEC (ARC) was still enabled on his X4500 and now I'm wondering if Bravia Sync turns off CEC entirely or just CEC remote control. If he turns off HDMI Control and ARC on the X4500 then we can strongly conclude that CEC is not needed for eARC between those two devices.


EDIT: Just to add, being able to disable CEC remote control functions on the Denon is huge and will solve a lot of problems.
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post #191 of 817 Old 06-21-2019, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by avernar View Post
This is not correct. He has the CEC remote control functions disabled but still has ARC turned on in his screenshot. ARC requires CEC so CEC and the sound related messages are still enabled. HDMI Control only turns off the remote control messages.


CEC (ARC) was still enabled on his X4500 and now I'm wondering if Bravia Sync turns off CEC entirely or just CEC remote control. If he turns off HDMI Control and ARC on the X4500 then we can strongly conclude that CEC is not needed for eARC between those two devices.


EDIT: Just to add, being able to disable CEC remote control functions on the Denon is huge and will solve a lot of problems.


I will receive my 4500H tomorrow and can do some testing to validate on current gen Denon gear.


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post #192 of 817 Old 06-21-2019, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
I don't know if @Keenan has a CEC-less cable or adapter, but with C9 and Pioneer VSX-LX503 cutting the CEC bus between those two has also cut the eARC, but there is a caveat - the Pioneer VSX-LX503 requires that it's CEC setting to be ON (it does not work with CEC=OFF as the 2018 Denon X4500H does).
As I wrote in my previous post, he did not have CEC fully disabled. I saw that post about the Pioneer needing CEC. No big deal if Keenan doesn't have a CEC-less cable or adapter since if he turns off HDMI Control and ARC and eARC still works then we'll be 99% certain it doesn't need it. But if eARC stops working it can either mean they tied eARC enable to ARC enable option or they made it depend on CEC deeper in their firmware.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Not every manufacturer has done the same job on the ARC, eARC and CEC implementation in their devices, so, as I said before, we can't just blame one device or brand for this mess...
That's why it would be good if we could confirm a device or two devices (one AVR and one TV) that doesn't need CEC for eARC then we can get other people to test them against their equipment. Right now the Denon is looking good. If we can get eARC working on it with both HDMI Control and ARC turned off (or a CEC-less cable/adapter) then we'll have our one device.
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post #193 of 817 Old 06-21-2019, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
I will receive my 4500H tomorrow and can do some testing to validate on current gen Denon gear.
Awesome. If the X4500h and C9 can run eARC with the HDMI Control and ARC settings turned off in the X4500h off then we can confirm the C9 just has eARC CEC dependency just in the config screen.
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post #194 of 817 Old 06-21-2019, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
At least that how I understand it, as I noted earlier, I don't ever use CEC on the Sony display.
What options does the Sony have? Just a Bravia Sync option or is there an ARC option as well somewhere?
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post #195 of 817 Old 06-21-2019, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
I will receive my 4500H tomorrow and can do some testing to validate on current gen Denon gear.


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Originally Posted by avernar View Post
Awesome. If the X4500h and C9 can run eARC with the HDMI Control and ARC settings in the X4500h off then we can confirm the C9 just has eARC CEC dependency just in the config screen.
I could not get pass-through from the C9 to my Denon 4500H working last night.
Here: was my setup
Nvidia Shield running Kodi into HDMI 1 on C9
Denon 4500H - HDMI Control=Off, ARC=On
C9 set for eARC and pass-through
HDMI cable from C9 to Denon is certified 48gbs. I've tested and passes 4K HDR and Dolby Vision from Denon 4500H to C9 with no issues from my 820 blu ray player and Apple 4K TV.

I tried 3 Dolby Test files. 1 with Atmos, 1 with TrueHD5.1 & TrueHD 7.1
Verified all sound formats display correctly by connecting Nvidia Sheild directly to Denon.

Going thru the C9:
The Atmos sound track worked but the TrueHD sound tracks did not pass through.
That's all the time I had to test last night. I did not have time to try other settings in the Denon and re-test. Maybe this weekend.

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post #196 of 817 Old 06-21-2019, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by avernar View Post
This is not correct. He has the CEC remote control functions disabled but still has ARC turned on in his screenshot.
This is correct because on Denon/Marantz AVRs, the ARC and eARC are the same, no way to enable ARC without eARC and vice-versa.

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Originally Posted by avernar View Post
ARC requires CEC so CEC and the sound related messages are still enabled.
ARC requires the (invisible) system functions (discovery and AudioEDID) to work, but the visible control functions can be disabled (via soft switches). That's why CEC-less cables/adapters between the TV and AVR also disable ARC (no discovery via CEC bus, no ARC!).


Quote:
Originally Posted by avernar View Post
HDMI Control only turns off the remote control messages.
Yup!


Quote:
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CEC (ARC) was still enabled on his X4500 and now I'm wondering if Bravia Sync turns off CEC entirely or just CEC remote control.
You are making things unnecessarily complicated!
As I said above, CEC was disabled in his X4500, with ARC enabled, because ARC and eARC are conflated by Denon. With CEC disabled, and ARC+eARC enabled, of course that the invisible CEC functions for discovery and AudioEDID are enabled, but these are outside of the user control. The user can control only the visible CEC part - the unified control of devices.

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If he turns off HDMI Control and ARC on the X4500 then we can strongly conclude that CEC is not needed for eARC between those two devices.
He has CEC (HDMI Control) off and ARC on. If he turns ARC off it will also turn off eARC. No separate switches for ARC and eARC on Denon.
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post #197 of 817 Old 06-21-2019, 09:07 AM
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I could not get pass-through from the C9 to my Denon 4500H working last night.
Here: was my setup
Nvidia Shield running Kodi into HDMI 1 on C9
Denon 4500H - HDMI Control=Off, ARC=On
C9 set for eARC and pass-through
HDMI cable from C9 to Denon is certified 48gbs. I've tested and passes 4K HDR and Dolby Vision from Denon 4500H to C9 with no issues from my 820 blu ray player and Apple 4K TV.

I tried 3 Dolby Test files. 1 with Atmos, 1 with TrueHD5.1 & TrueHD 7.1
Verified all sound formats display correctly by connecting Nvidia Sheild directly to Denon.

Going thru the C9:
The Atmos sound track worked but the TrueHD sound tracks did not pass through.
That's all the time I had to test last night. I did not have time to try other settings in the Denon and re-test. Maybe this weekend.
I don't mean to be nit-picky, but there are no certified 48Gbps HDMI cables yet. The certification test has not yet been released.
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post #198 of 817 Old 06-21-2019, 09:13 AM
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ARC requires the (invisible) system functions (discovery and AudioEDID) to work, but the visible control functions can be disabled (via soft switches). That's why CEC-less cables/adapters between the TV and AVR also disable ARC (no discovery via CEC bus, no ARC!).
Those "invisible" system functions are still CEC.

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You are making things unnecessarily complicated!
As I said above, CEC was disabled in his X4500, with ARC enabled, because ARC and eARC are conflated by Denon. With CEC disabled, and ARC+eARC enabled, of course that the invisible CEC functions for discovery and AudioEDID are enabled, but these are outside of the user control. The user can control only the visible CEC part - the unified control of devices.
No I'm not! CEC was NOT disabled on his X4500h. CEC can not be disable while ARC is active or ARC will not work. Those discovery and Audio capability messages (I don't think they're a full Audio EDID but that's another discussion) are a part of CEC just like the remote control functions are part of CEC. So saying that turning off the remote control messages has turned of CEC is flat out wrong.

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He has CEC (HDMI Control) off and ARC on. If he turns ARC off it will also turn off eARC. No separate switches for ARC and eARC on Denon.
Hes has HDMI Control off while CEC is still on because of ARC. With all the misinformation going back an forth I want to confirm that turning off ARC on the Denon will kill eARC. Right now we have someone with a working eARC that has the capability to turn of CEC by shutting off both the HDMI Control and ARC options. With both of these options off there would be no need for CEC and the Denon should not use it in theory. A CEC-less adapter/cable would be 100% proof.


There is a lot of confusion as the remote control functions were never given a separate name from the entire protocol.


EDIT: Forgive me for looking like I'm complicating things but I prefer to be methodical. That's why I'm an excellent troubleshooter. Too many times people say they tried something but in reality they didn't or they missed a key piece. I've already seen that happening in this thread and in the owners thread dozens of times. Another issue is that people are taking a negative result (eARC not working) and coming to the wrong conclusion. If it's not working there are many things that can be wrong (cable, settings, etc). But a positive result is worth it's weight in gold.

Last edited by avernar; 06-21-2019 at 09:33 AM.
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post #199 of 817 Old 06-21-2019, 10:11 AM
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HDMI cable from C9 to Denon is certified 48gbs.

There are no certified 48Gbps cables, period. It's all marketing b.s. CTS testing is available for the connectors but the physical cable is still under development/testing.

I never trust an atom, they make up everything.
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post #200 of 817 Old 06-21-2019, 10:21 AM
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I don't mean to be nit-picky, but there are no certified 48Gbps HDMI cables yet. The certification test has not yet been released.
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There are no certified 48Gbps cables, period. It's all marketing b.s. CTS testing is available for the connectors but the physical cable is still under development/testing.
Here to report my findings to help others. Not nick pick English wording. The point I as trying to make is its not my cable. Should have stated "rated" not "certified". Just chill.

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post #201 of 817 Old 06-21-2019, 10:26 AM
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Here to report my findings to help others. Not nick pick English wording. The point I as trying to make is its not my cable. Should have stated "rated" not "certified". Just chill.

A "rated" cable means nothing as well. Marketing, plain and simple. If your run is under 20', then a Premium High Speed HDMI cable is the best you can do for now. If your run is over 20', then a hybrid fiber cable would be your best bet. Just chill.

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post #202 of 817 Old 06-21-2019, 10:52 AM
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Those "invisible" system functions are still CEC.
Who said they are not?
Of course they are!
Do we have another bus except for CEC for ARC to use? No, we do not!

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Originally Posted by avernar View Post
No I'm not! CEC was NOT disabled on his X4500h.
From the point of view of the user, "HDMI Control" (that is the name of CEC in Denon/Marantz) is OFF.
Behind the scenes, even with the "HDMI Control" switch OFF, yes, CEC is still ON.


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Originally Posted by avernar View Post
CEC can not be disable while ARC is active or ARC will not work.
I think that we already established that...


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Originally Posted by avernar View Post
So saying that turning off the remote control messages has turned of CEC is flat out wrong.
Yes, we know that CEC has 2 split personalities, one hidden and one visible. The user has control only over the visible personality.
Can we move on?

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Originally Posted by avernar View Post
With all the misinformation going back an forth I want to confirm that turning off ARC on the Denon will kill eARC.
And it should kill eARC from the Denon endpoint if you disable ARC in its setup menu.


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Originally Posted by avernar View Post
Right now we have someone with a working eARC that has the capability to turn of CEC by shutting off both the HDMI Control and ARC options. With both of these options off there would be no need for CEC and the Denon should not use it in theory. A CEC-less adapter/cable would be 100% proof.
@Keenan , can you please test on your X4500H that switching OFF the ARC you are/not able to use HD audio originating from your Sony TV?

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There is a lot of confusion as the remote control functions were never given a separate name from the entire protocol.
Maybe because the user has no business with the hidden functions? For the user, CEC is CEC and that's it.

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Originally Posted by avernar View Post
EDIT: Forgive me for looking like I'm complicating things but I prefer to be methodical. That's why I'm an excellent troubleshooter. Too many times people say they tried something but in reality they didn't or they missed a key piece. I've already seen that happening in this thread and in the owners thread dozens of times. Another issue is that people are taking a negative result (eARC not working) and coming to the wrong conclusion. If it's not working there are many things that can be wrong (cable, settings, etc). But a positive result is worth it's weight in gold.
I agree.
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post #203 of 817 Old 06-21-2019, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
A "rated" cable means nothing as well. Marketing, plain and simple. If your run is under 20', then a Premium High Speed HDMI cable is the best you can do for now. If your run is over 20', then a hybrid fiber cable would be your best bet. Just chill.
Well, then "premium" from your statement above means nothing as well. I have a couple of 6 foot "Premium" High speed HDMI cables with Ethernet from Monoprice that won't work with DV from both my A4KTV or my Panny 820 blu ray player. Those "rated" 6 foot 48gbs cables I bought work for DV. So they are obviously built differently.

What makes a copper cable (not fiber) capable of higher speed/bandwidth is mainly in the diameter of the conductors, twisting of the pairs and shielding between the twisted pairs inside the cable assembly. Case in point CAT5E vs CAT6A.

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post #204 of 817 Old 06-21-2019, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by al210 View Post
Well, then "premium" from your statement above means nothing as well. I have a couple of 6 foot "Premium" High speed HDMI cables with Ethernet from Monoprice that won't work with DV from both my A4KTV or my Panny 820 blu ray player. Those "rated" 6 foot 48gbs cables I bought work for DV. So they are obviously built differently.

What makes a copper cable (not fiber) capable of higher speed/bandwidth is mainly in the diameter of the conductors, twisting of the pairs and shielding between the twisted pairs inside the cable assembly. Case in point CAT5E vs CAT6A.

Premium means that the cable was tested by an ATC (Authorized Testing Center) following standardized testing protocols designed and implemented by HDMI.org. The cable will come with a QR label for authenticity. It's not a 100% guarantee (no cable is) but at least the consumer knows that the cable was tested and passed ALL of the HDMI 2.0 hardware specifications.


A thicker wire gauge can increase the reliability of the cable but the trade-off is loss of flexibility (bend radius) and increased strain on the HDMI input. Both of which can, and will shorten the life of the cable or the reliability of the signal transmission. Ethernet means nothing right now because there are no, nor have there ever been, any consumer devices that took advantage of that option.


A hybrid fiber cable uses a glass fiber core surrounded by solid copper wiring. The copper wiring is used for ARC, HDCP, and EDID, which frees up more bandwidth for video and other options on the fiber core. That results in longer cable runs with a smaller gauge wiring. Those cables are active.



Cable runs less than 10' should not be a problem with a high quality cable build for HDMI 2.0. HDMI 2.1 specifies the maximum cable length for passive cables will be 9'.



I use Premium High Speed HDMI cables (18Gbps) at <10' lengths and have had absolutley no issues whatsoever with 4k HDR (DV, HDR10, etc) or HD Audio (Dolby TrueHD, DTS-MS, etc).


The point is if you have a cable that works then that's the cable to stay with, for now. But there are NO validated 48Gbps (Ultra High Speed HDMI cables) that have been independently proven to pass fully compliant HDMI 2.1 (48Gbps), yet. Belkin started selling "HDMI 2.1 compliant cables, 48Gbps" before the HDMI protocols were even ratified and the final specs sent to the chip mfrs. Belkin makes good cables but their 48Gbps claims are dubious at best. That also holds true for any other cable mfr who claims HDMI 2.1 compatibility or 48Gbps bandwidth.

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Last edited by Otto Pylot; 06-21-2019 at 11:21 AM.
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post #205 of 817 Old 06-21-2019, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Who said they are not?
Of course they are!
Do we have another bus except for CEC for ARC to use? No, we do not!
You implied it when you said turning off HDMI Control turned of CEC. You wrote: "So you have CEC disabled of both devices (TV+AVR) and eARC is working without CEC." But ARC was on in his screenshot and the only way your statement could be true is if you thought the discovery functions were not CEC. Now you're agreeing with me that the discovery functions are CEC, which have to be enabled for ARC to work, which contradicts that statement you made.

I'm just reading what you wrote and applying logical reasoning to it.

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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
From the point of view of the user, "HDMI Control" (that is the name of CEC in Denon/Marantz) is OFF.
Behind the scenes, even with the "HDMI Control" switch OFF, yes, CEC is still ON.
The point of view of the user is irrelevant in a technical discussion on how things work because most of the time the user is clueless. And HDMI Control is the name of the CEC remote control functions that Denon/Marantz chose to use. If they hadn't separated out the ARC function into a independently configurable option I would have agreed with you.

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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Yes, we know that CEC has 2 split personalities, one hidden and one visible. The user has control only over the visible personality.
Can we move on?
The user on the Denon possibly/probably has control over the hidden one. By turning off both ARC and HDMI control the hidden CEC would probably be shut off.
Move on? Sure. When you stop posting incorrect information (the part that keenan had CEC disabled).

The CEC Control functions (visible part) are the cause of the strange behaviour (input switching, random power on/off, glitches, etc.) that users are experiences. It's good that that can for sure be shut off on the Denon. But CEC itself (the hidden part) is the cause of some incompatibility issues. That's why it's important to find out if the Denon and Sony will run eARC with CEC completely disabled.

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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
And it should kill eARC from the Denon endpoint if you disable ARC in its setup menu.
Should. I'd like for him to confirm it because right now we don't know if he has the ARC option turned on because someone told him it needs to be on or if he actually tried it with it off.

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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Maybe because the user has no business with the hidden functions? For the user, CEC is CEC and that's it.
If HDMI.org did its job and made sure CEC worked flawlessly between manufacturers, sure. But because CEC compatibility is a mess we need a way to turn it off.

I'm not just saying this for nothing. I've tried turning on CEC in the past and had no end of frustration with it. Fortunately I could shut it off on my AVR and ignore it. But now that manufacturers are tying eARC to it that changes things. Now I may be forced to keep it on. Or spend $$$ on a HDMI 2.1 AVR in a year and forget about eARC which I'd rather not be forced to do.

Last edited by avernar; 06-21-2019 at 11:42 AM.
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post #206 of 817 Old 06-21-2019, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avernar View Post
The point of view of the user is irrelevant in a technical discussion on how things work because most of the time the user is clueless.

Do note that here we all are users and this forum is full of users. We are not here to mock anyone. We are users first, regardless of our level of knowledge.
And every user can become a power user, thanks to this forum.


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Move on? Sure. When you stop posting incorrect information (the part that keenan had CEC disabled).
I think that you and I have explained very well about the inner workings of CEC. And I understood very well what you've said.

You are beating a dead horse right now.
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post #207 of 817 Old 06-21-2019, 01:35 PM
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Do note that here we all are users and this forum is full of users. We are not here to mock anyone. We are users first, regardless of our level of knowledge.
And every user can become a power user, thanks to this forum.
I am not mocking or belittling anyone. Not everyone can be a technical expert at everything. That being said, when I'm having a technical discussion on the inner workings of something I care very little on what the user thinks on how things work. Don't get me wrong. I value everyone's experimentation and the stuff they've discovered.

"The user disabled the HDMI Control option and thinks that CEC is disabled" is quite different than "The user disabled the HDMI Control option and we know CEC is still enabled because the ARC option is on" are two completely different things. I don't care for the former but do care for the latter.

Now if we as technical experts don't actually post the correct technical info then the users will never become power users and will remain ignorant. They'll also keep repeating the incorrect/incomplete information which makes things harder for us to correct everyone's "group think" in the future.

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You are beating a dead horse right now.
Other than clearing up the above I'm done with this. If you can stop beating the other end of the horse I think we're good.
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post #208 of 817 Old 06-21-2019, 02:43 PM
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Been trying to catch up on these posts and I have to run out again but I tried playing the same set of files with the ARC toggle set to off and they still all played back just as they had with it set to on, that is to say, still full HD(DTS-HD/DDTHD and or LPCM.

I'm not sure what that means and will have time to check it out more thoroughly later but I see that it was requested so here it is. To be honest, I'm actually a little surprised that it works this way, I would have guessed that eARC would become non-functional with ARC turned off.

The first image is the settings page in the Denon and the second is the front panel while Blade Runner 2049 is playing. The third image is the CEC/Bravia Sync setting page on the Sony display(A9F), the top highlighted toggle is set in the Off position. The fourth image is the eARC setting on the Sony display(A9F).

The signal path is as follows, OPPO 203 connected to Sony A9F via HDMI-2, HDMI-3 from Sony to the Denon 4500 Monitor/ARC HDMI input. So, OPPO to Sony and then to the Denon.

I hope this is helpful and answers some questions and if you have more I'll be around later today to try whatever.
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Last edited by Keenan; 06-21-2019 at 02:48 PM.
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post #209 of 817 Old 06-21-2019, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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LG C9 eARC Info Thread

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Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
Been trying to catch up on these posts and I have to run out again but I tried playing the same set of files with the ARC toggle set to off and they still all played back just as they had with it set to on, that is to say, still full HD(DTS-HD/DDTHD and or LPCM.



I'm not sure what that means and will have time to check it out more thoroughly later but I see that it was requested so here it is. To be honest, I'm actually a little surprised that it works this way, I would have guessed that eARC would become non-functional with ARC turned off.



The first image is the settings page in the Denon and the second is the front panel while Blade Runner 2049 is playing. The third image is the CEC/Bravia Sync setting page on the Sony display(A9F), the top highlighted toggle is set in the Off position. The fourth image is the eARC setting on the Sony display(A9F).



I hope this is helpful and answers some questions and if you have more I'll be around later today to try whatever.


This seems to prove that EARC on the Sony sets even with all CEC functions turned off by the consumer.

Which is the way it’s supposed to work.

So the TV is negotiating and setting up an EARC delivery to the Denon even when the Denon has the ARC feature turned off.


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post #210 of 817 Old 06-21-2019, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
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This seems to prove that EARC on the Sony sets even with all CEC functions turned off by the consumer.


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That does seem to be the case and any other test scenarios you folks would like me to try just post away.

I edited my above post to add the signal path as I want to make sure the base setup is correct for this testing.

The wording of the last Sony image, the eARC setting, has me a bit confused as the OPPO is not connected to HDMI3 eARC/ARC input, it's connected to HDMI2 while HDMI3 is the connection between the Sony display and the Denon AVR.

(BTW, I do not have a CEC-less cable.)

Last edited by Keenan; 06-21-2019 at 03:04 PM.
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