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-   -   Future of OLED (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/3074280-future-oled.html)

drewTT 06-19-2019 01:56 PM

Future of OLED
 
Thought this was an interesting article with maybe a bit of fear mongering...lol

https://www.zdnet.com/article/fear-a...arket-squeeze/

fafrd 06-19-2019 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drewTT (Post 58203282)
Thought this was an interesting article with maybe a bit of fear mongering...lol

https://www.zdnet.com/article/fear-a...arket-squeeze/

That's old 'news' - check out May's posts in the OLED Technology Advancements Thread if you want to see more perspective on that subject.

More recently, these developments are far more meaningful: https://www.oled-info.com/lg-display...ed-tv-fab-paju

"According to a new report from Korea, LG display has actually started to install some of the Oxide-TFT deposition equipment (supplied by Applied Materials and Jusung Engineering) earlier than it first planned. LGD's original plan was to install this equipment in early 2020. The mass production at the P10 fab is expected to begin in 2021."

and https://www.oled-info.com/reports-ko...s-it-can-begin

"According to a new report from China, Samsung will indeed go ahead with its QD-OLED production plans, but at a slower pace than was first estimated. Samsung will only begin trial production towards the end of 2020, with real mass production on a new 10-Gen line only at around 2023."

It's called 'spin' and it seems like Samsung wanted to make an attempt to control the narrative before these facts came to light...

LGD has a clear runway for at least the next 4 years and the A/V world is likely to look pretty different by 2023...

Flavius 06-19-2019 07:37 PM

I was reading about TV energy consumption laws passed in California in 2008. Is this the REAL reason we have ABL on OLEDs? Man I hope not.

drewTT 06-19-2019 08:42 PM

Future of OLED
 
I wonder when we will see a legit 1,000 nit OLED. Not looking very promising short term.

MicroLED has me interested but I would bet it will have a host of its own issues initially.

ray0414 06-19-2019 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavius (Post 58204846)
I was reading about TV energy consumption laws passed in California in 2008. Is this the REAL reason we have ABL on OLEDs? Man I hope not.



have you seen the energy consumption numbers of the Sony and Samsung 8k sets? oled doesnr come close to those. the 85Z9G is 3x the 77C9. Samsung's 82/85 8k is nearly double the 77C9

Gillietalls 06-20-2019 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drewTT (Post 58205006)
I wonder when we will see a legit 1,000 nit OLED. Not looking very promising short term.

MicroLED has me interested but I would bet it will have a host of its own issues initially.


To me it just seems like screen uniformity is going to be a big issue. Who's to say all the tiles needed to make up the screen won't all be different in some form or another. It seems it would make calibrating very challenging.

AnalogHD 06-20-2019 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavius (Post 58204846)
I was reading about TV energy consumption laws passed in California in 2008. Is this the REAL reason we have ABL on OLEDs? Man I hope not.

One other reason I can think of is savings from using a smaller power supply.

I don't see a reason you'd need ABL to avoid BI, as differential wear = BI comes from small bright elements, not high whole-screen brightness.

markrubin 06-20-2019 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavius (Post 58204846)
I was reading about TV energy consumption laws passed in California in 2008. Is this the REAL reason we have ABL on OLEDs?


No: it is to mitigate image retention/ burn-in

JD23 06-20-2019 07:59 AM

This article has the feel of something bought and paid for by Samsung. Also, it is rife with grammatical errors (exasperated != exacerbated).

wxman 06-20-2019 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavius (Post 58204846)
I was reading about TV energy consumption laws passed in California in 2008. Is this the REAL reason we have ABL on OLEDs? Man I hope not.

That’s what help killed plasma. I had a Pioneer 5020 that if you went into the SM, you could boost the ABL setting to make the tv much brighter. My friend now has the tv, and 10 years later, it’s still working fine. The default ABL setting was there so it could pass those energy settings. You can go into the SM on the LG tv’s and also make tv brighter for SDR by changing HDR_Module from normal to on. I dont think I would do that for fear of greatly increasing the risk of BI.

Dianabol5mg 06-20-2019 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JD23 (Post 58206502)
This article has the feel of something bought and paid for by Samsung. Also, it is rife with grammatical errors (exasperated != exacerbated).

If LG and their "one trick pony" was doing horrible business, Samsung would be all in on QLED.

Kenbar 06-21-2019 08:31 AM

Oleds top dog days are numbered with 4K B&W backplane panel filtering, micro leds will come out and drop in price. But I think Oleds will be around for a long time as prices drop well below what top LED type tv's will cost.

KidHorn 06-21-2019 09:20 AM

If LG does run into issues, I think one of their stumbling blocks was only offering 55" and 65" sizes. The 77" was way out the price range for almost everyone.

People like to buy the maximum size that fits in their space, so anything < 55" was no sale and if they could fit something 70" or larger, it was a tough sell. Price and size are the 2 biggest factors for shoppers.

Hetfieldjames 06-21-2019 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenbar (Post 58211008)
Oleds top dog days are numbered with 4K B&W backplane panel filtering, micro leds will come out and drop in price. But I think Oleds will be around for a long time as prices drop well below what top LED type tv's will cost.

What is b&w backplane? I never heard of that technology?

Kenbar 06-21-2019 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hetfieldjames (Post 58211232)
What is b&w backplane? I never heard of that technology?

Concept is a multi zone LED back lighting...but then, the light passes through a 4K black and white panel...then on through a 4K or 8K LCD panel/screen. They claim these will produce black levels close to Oled while still being able to put out 2000 nits, double the 1000 nit Oleds are expected to achieve soon. Have to see what these end up costing. My guess, like micro led's...more at the start than Oleds. And with Oleds expected to drop in price as production ramps up...

So same-ish blacks with double or more brightness...with no BI risks, but at a higher price...my guess as to how it will play out mid term.

avernar 06-21-2019 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hetfieldjames (Post 58211232)
What is b&w backplane? I never heard of that technology?

Two LCD's sandwiched together. The back one is just black and white (no colour filters) to control the light levels on a per pixel level.

Hetfieldjames 06-21-2019 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avernar (Post 58211434)
Two LCD's sandwiched together. The back one is just black and white (no colour filters) to control the light levels on a per pixel level.

Ah ok I did hear of that just not the proper name, thanks. I heard of the two LCDs sandwiched but not the actual name. Hisense is the only one doing that so far right? I want to see that in action.

Kenbar 06-21-2019 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hetfieldjames (Post 58211440)
Ah ok I did hear of that just not the proper name, thanks. I heard of the two LCDs sandwiched but not the actual name. Hisense is the only one doing that so far right? I want to see that in action.



Here is a newer vid with a Hisense rep's comments on it...talk about it briefly. Concept was out a year or two ago at CES.


Hetfieldjames 06-21-2019 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenbar (Post 58211462)
Here is a newer vid with a Hisense rep's comments on it...talk about it briefly. Concept was out a year or two ago at CES.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-e8SyX0a48

Awesome thanks.

Dianabol5mg 06-21-2019 11:20 AM

And now Hisense is off and running with OLED.

subtec 06-21-2019 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hetfieldjames (Post 58211440)
Ah ok I did hear of that just not the proper name, thanks. I heard of the two LCDs sandwiched but not the actual name. Hisense is the only one doing that so far right? I want to see that in action.

Not sure what Hisense is calling it (other than ULED XD), but on the pro displays it's called Light Modulating Cell Layer (LMCL). These panels are being used in $40k+ displays from Sony, Eizo, Flanders Scientific and others.

AnalogHD 06-21-2019 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenbar (Post 58211008)
Oleds top dog days are numbered with 4K B&W backplane panel filtering, micro leds will come out and drop in price. But I think Oleds will be around for a long time as prices drop well below what top LED type tv's will cost.

Dual-LCD displays are extremely inefficient, as each LCD layer absorbs 75%-90% of the light even when it's fully open due to the use of polarizers.

Mostly as a result of that, they are also heavy, noisy (active cooling due to running very hot), and have significantly reduced viewing angles, since the stacked LCD arrangement doesn't work as designed when you go off angle.

In exchange you get... The ability to stuff an even more powerful backlight in? There's virtually no limit to how bright you can make a LED backplane, 100K nits if you want to, it's only limited by power and cooling. And that's all.

If you are a professional, you are grading content that will be viewed 10, 20, 30 years later. The original Star Wars has hit 42. In 40 years, displays will have much better peak brightness, and if you screw up now, it will be a bit late to fix it. So you need the ability to cover as much brightness range as possible.

Since you are working alone, and on a fairly small screen (as you aren't there for the immersion) you don't care for the viewing angles. Since there is no sound yet, you can use headphones or other music, and the display can be fitted flush inside a wall anyway. And since it's all owned by the studio, you have no idea or care for its weight and cost.

This is a narrow, specialist set of requirements, in gross disconnect from what people want to see in their homes.

Dual-layer LCD have been known for decades. There was no breakthrough in the field. The only reason they're coming out now is the need to grade future-proof content in luminance ranges beyond the ability of native HDR displays.

Micro-LED is a similarly bulky but much less visually-compromised technology for extremely large screens. But the cost isn't coming down much - it can't, while they still have to be built up pixel by pixel - and you still need a very large display to pull off at least 4K. Very few people who don't own a company and aren't paid in FAANG stocks will be able to afford a home large enough for one, never mind the screen itself costing like a home.

If our economy suddenly turned into in a Star Trek world, where room size is still limited, but any appliances can be automagically fabricated if there is a standard design, I'd still bet for the 8Z88 getting far more orders than the BVM-X310, Dolby Pulsar, and The Wall combined. On the sum of its characteristics, it's a better TV - lighter, thinner, better looking, sized for real home rooms, with perfect blacks, and bright enough for any practical viewing, unless you're trying to fight the Sun. There would even be more orders for each of the Q90 and the Z9G than for the three exotics. Assuming the fabricator isn't banned from making window blinds!

subtec 06-21-2019 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnalogHD (Post 58212272)
Dual-LCD displays are extremely inefficient, as each LCD layer absorbs 75%-90% of the light even when it's fully open due to the use of polarizers.

Mostly as a result of that, they are also heavy, noisy (active cooling due to running very hot)

It seems to be not quite as bad as that. BOE claims 3.5-3.9% transmittance for their dual-layer LCD, only about 20-30% lower than the ~5% transmittance of conventional LCD panels. The fact the second layer is black and white only and incurs no loss from color filters might account for why it's not lower. Coupled with a FALD backlight (something the pro displays lack AFAIK), the average power consumption/heat output may not be so bad after all.

jmpage2 06-21-2019 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ray0414 (Post 58205100)
have you seen the energy consumption numbers of the Sony and Samsung 8k sets? oled doesnr come close to those. the 85Z9G is 3x the 77C9. Samsung's 82/85 8k is nearly double the 77C9

Where are you getting the power consumption values? I recently bought a 77C9 and actually couldn't find the power consumption average even though it had a sticker on it that indicated it was on the very low end of the range for sets of that size.

I know my 65VT30 used quite a bit of power, probably around 250-350 watts and had enough waste heat that it kind of doubled as a space heater.

alluringreality 06-21-2019 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmpage2 (Post 58212634)
Where are you getting the power consumption values? I recently bought a 77C9 and actually couldn't find the power consumption average even though it had a sticker on it that indicated it was on the very low end of the range for sets of that size.

There is the 313 kWh from the energy guide label. There is also 655 W listed on the last page of the owner's manual, which is actually lower than 757 W from the 77" C8.


Quote:

I know my 65VT30 used quite a bit of power, probably around 250-350 watts and had enough waste heat that it kind of doubled as a space heater.
Crutchfield has an energy guide label showing 292 kWh, and the manual lists 516 W.


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