77" OLED or 85"+ Non-OLED? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 26 Old 06-23-2019, 06:22 AM - Thread Starter
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77" OLED or 85"+ Non-OLED?

Like many others on this forum I have finally replaced one of my plasmas with a 65" LG C8 and i'm very happy with it. Now I'm going to replace another 64" plasma in my house but in this area I'm specifically looking for a 85"+ display. I was hoping the new 88" LG 8K would be under $10k but it's currently on sale for $30k, not going to happen.

So should I:

1. Buy for a 77" OLED
2. Buy a 85"+ non-OLED
3. Wait for a 85"+ OLED at less than $10k

Thanks in advance.

"I usually sit closer to 2 X screen width, or I look like a cat watching a ping pong tournament." -Free
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post #2 of 26 Old 06-23-2019, 10:32 AM
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What's the environment and intended usage?

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post #3 of 26 Old 06-23-2019, 10:44 AM
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Boy 85 inches is hard to pass up. That is a massive display. Tough call but I would go for the larger size.
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post #4 of 26 Old 06-23-2019, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Yukon Trooper View Post
What's the environment and intended usage?
Man cave. Intended usage is mainly sports. I have a projection screen for movies.

"I usually sit closer to 2 X screen width, or I look like a cat watching a ping pong tournament." -Free
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post #5 of 26 Old 06-23-2019, 07:17 PM
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I am in a similar situation.

Finally may need to replace my 70" Sony SXRD.

Was leaning towards a 77" LG OLED C8,.. but the black levels look totally fake (at least in the store demo). Makes everything look like a painting on the back of glass. Perhaps that can be adjusted out? (There is no perfect black in real life,.. but it seems they are trying to show off their black levels at the expense of realism).


The TV sales guy thought the Sony 85" 900F or 950G were the better bet. But it's hard to wrap my head around buying an LCD TV,.. they've been so horrid for so long. All the technical trickery they've had to do to make them passable.

I just need a monitor. I'd like to avoid anything "smart". In fact I won't be connecting it to the internet at all. Just HDMIs to the cable box, OPPO player and Fire Box.

The TV will be in a fairly dark room most of the time. Formula One, NFL, cable shows, occasionally something on Netflix. I watch a movie perhaps 3x a year.

Thanks in advance.
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post #6 of 26 Old 06-23-2019, 11:55 PM
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Either
1. Buy for a 77" OLED
or
3. Wait for a 85"+ OLED at less than $10k
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post #7 of 26 Old 06-24-2019, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by duckstu View Post
Finally may need to replace my 70" Sony SXRD.

But it's hard to wrap my head around buying an LCD TV,.. they've been so horrid for so long.
It's been over 5 years since the color went out on my SXRD RPTV, but I don't remember there really being many areas where it was necessarily better than LCD at the time. Current LCDs should have improved in some areas, for example X-Motion Clarity seems to be regarded as possibly one of the best motion processing systems currently available.
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post #8 of 26 Old 06-24-2019, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by DB2 View Post
Man cave. Intended usage is mainly sports. I have a projection screen for movies.
For your intended usage you are better off getting an 85" LCD.
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post #9 of 26 Old 06-24-2019, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duckstu View Post
I am in a similar situation.

Finally may need to replace my 70" Sony SXRD.

Was leaning towards a 77" LG OLED C8,.. but the black levels look totally fake (at least in the store demo). Makes everything look like a painting on the back of glass. Perhaps that can be adjusted out? (There is no perfect black in real life,.. but it seems they are trying to show off their black levels at the expense of realism).


The TV sales guy thought the Sony 85" 900F or 950G were the better bet. But it's hard to wrap my head around buying an LCD TV,.. they've been so horrid for so long. All the technical trickery they've had to do to make them passable.

I just need a monitor. I'd like to avoid anything "smart". In fact I won't be connecting it to the internet at all. Just HDMIs to the cable box, OPPO player and Fire Box.

The TV will be in a fairly dark room most of the time. Formula One, NFL, cable shows, occasionally something on Netflix. I watch a movie perhaps 3x a year.

Thanks in advance.
There is nothing "fake" about OLED black levels, your brain just isn't used to seeing what is technologically possible when you have per pixel total control over luminance.
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post #10 of 26 Old 06-24-2019, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duckstu View Post

Was leaning towards a 77" LG OLED C8,.. but the black levels look totally fake (at least in the store demo). Makes everything look like a painting on the back of glass. Perhaps that can be adjusted out? (There is no perfect black in real life,.. but it seems they are trying to show off their black levels at the expense of realism).
It's called black crush. OLEDs can't display black slightly above absolute black, so they make just above absolute black perfect black. It creates a pretty picture, but it's false contrast. And I have the same impression as you. At times. the picture doesn't look natural.

It can't be adjusted out. What is typically done is raise all the black levels so the relative levels are OK, but then you lose the best part of OLED. Being able to display perfect black. Overall I think OLED is better than LCD, but it has it's flaws too.
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post #11 of 26 Old 06-24-2019, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
It's called black crush. OLEDs can't display black slightly above absolute black, so they make just above absolute black perfect black. It creates a pretty picture, but it's false contrast. And I have the same impression as you. At times. the picture doesn't look natural.



It can't be adjusted out. What is typically done is raise all the black levels so the relative levels are OK, but then you lose the best part of OLED. Being able to display perfect black. Overall I think OLED is better than LCD, but it has it's flaws too.
Very good post, every tech has flaws. Nothing is perfect is the lesson in this hobby.
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post #12 of 26 Old 06-24-2019, 08:10 AM
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It's amazing you still have a working SXRD. Mine was ready for the dump after around 5.5 years (7 years ago). The fact that you watch in a dark room would make me lean towards OLED, but LCD might be better suited to the type of content you watch.
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post #13 of 26 Old 06-24-2019, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
There is nothing "fake" about OLED black levels, your brain just isn't used to seeing what is technologically possible when you have per pixel total control over luminance.
I wanted to piggy back on the OP's post, I am in the same boat deciding on a 77 inch OLED or a 85 inch Sony or a 82 inch Samsung. I am moving to metro Atlanta & will close on a new home on July 22.

Here is a photo of the family room from the listing photo where the TV would go.

https://imgur.com/a/oHEFMjK



The basement is unfinished but has 11 foot ceilings so when I finish it off I will go with a projector down there.

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post #14 of 26 Old 06-24-2019, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by bellhead View Post
I wanted to piggy back on the OP's post, I am in the same boat deciding on a 77 inch OLED or a 85 inch Sony or a 82 inch Samsung. I am moving to metro Atlanta & will close on a new home on July 22.



Here is a photo of the family room from the listing photo where the TV would go.



https://imgur.com/a/oHEFMjK







The basement is unfinished but has 11 foot ceilings so when I finish it off I will go with a projector down there.


With that much uncontrolled lighting I would probably go with the largest QLED set I could afford.


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post #15 of 26 Old 06-24-2019, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
With that much uncontrolled lighting I would probably go with the largest QLED set I could afford.
I think there are better screen finishes than the semi-gloss Samsung uses on the lower models (Q70, Q60, Q6), but the "ultra black" screens on the higher models (Q90, Q80, Q9FN-Q7FN) might be the best glossy screen finish currently available for dealing with reflections.
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post #16 of 26 Old 06-24-2019, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by JD23 View Post
It's amazing you still have a working SXRD. Mine was ready for the dump after around 5.5 years (7 years ago). The fact that you watch in a dark room would make me lean towards OLED, but LCD might be better suited to the type of content you watch.

I had the very first 1080 tv ever made,.. The Sony SXRD kds60xbr1 (1080i only). It's still around,.. I gave it to a friend.


Back 8 some years ago I learned that SONY had made a 70" version in 2007,.. and found one on Craigslist with a bit of green-screen. Bought it for $400. Then sent the light engine to Tri-State Module. They repaired it for $299. So I've been enjoying a 70" SXRD 1080P Tv for the last 8+ years for $799.00
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post #17 of 26 Old 06-24-2019, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by duckstu View Post
I had the very first 1080 tv ever made,.. The Sony SXRD kds60xbr1 (1080i only). It's still around,.. I gave it to a friend.


Back 8 some years ago I learned that SONY had made a 70" version in 2007,.. and found one on Craigslist with a bit of green-screen. Bought it for $400. Then sent the light engine to Tri-State Module. They repaired it for $299. So I've been enjoying a 70" SXRD 1080P Tv for the last 8+ years for $799.00
I recently had to give my 60" SXRD 1080P set away because I could find no takers for it at $50.

The TV was immaculate and had no blobs or other problems. The remote control was brand new as it had never been used.

I remember thinking the picture quality on that TV was pretty decent as I had spent a fair amount of time calibrating it. My Panasonic plasma was a lot better but my recollection was that a lot of that was due to the plasma TV being much brighter.

Well.... when I turned the SXRD on it was in a pitch black basement, the PQ was still "good" by rear projection standards but it looked like total crap compared to any decent TV made in the last 10 years. I had to resist the temptation to simply put it in a pick up truck and take it out to some local dump and use it for target practice.
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post #18 of 26 Old 06-24-2019, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
I think there are better screen finishes than the semi-gloss Samsung uses on the lower models (Q70, Q60, Q6), but the "ultra black" screens on the higher models (Q90, Q80, Q9FN-Q7FN) might be the best glossy screen finish currently available for dealing with reflections.
Yes if it were me I would go with Q90R if I had that much window lighting in a room. There is simply no other television on the market with the anti glare properties of the new Samsung.
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post #19 of 26 Old 06-24-2019, 10:34 AM
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I'm amazed that some of you had SXRDs without failed optical blocks. My SXRD was taken to the dump on 2012 and I avoided Sony products for a few years after that.
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post #20 of 26 Old 06-24-2019, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
Yes if it were me I would go with Q90R if I had that much window lighting in a room. There is simply no other television on the market with the anti glare properties of the new Samsung.
I have a ton of windows in my living room but really only ever watch in the dark (at least anything I care about as far as picture quality).

If watching during the day or with lights on is a priority, I agree, LED/LCD is better-suited.

But if you primarily watch what you care about with lights off, WOLED cannot be beat.

The OPs question about bigger LED/LCD versus smaller WOLED comes down to preference. Local diming artifacts including visible-above-black letterbox bars are a showstopper for me and destroy any sense of immersion far more than a sightly smaller screen would, so for my viewing priorties, the 77" WOLED would be preferable to the 85" LED/LCD.

Especially coming from a 64" plasma, the 77" WOLED represents:

-45% more screen realestate (a more-than-paltry upgrade)
-massive increase in peak brightness (for the occasional daytime viewing)
-4K resolution and HDR capability
-better blacks (especially on letterbox bars - zero screen glow)

I went from a 65ZT60 plasma to a P70 FALD LED/LCD to a 65C6P WOLED and I would never give up the perfect blacks of my WOLED for a larger LED/LCD...
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post #21 of 26 Old 06-24-2019, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
It's called black crush. OLEDs can't display black slightly above absolute black, so they make just above absolute black perfect black. It creates a pretty picture, but it's false contrast.
My experience and testing don't support this theory.

Here is a couple images (attached). There is no black voodoo here, it's just a bunch of random shapes in the dimmest colors possible, from 0.1% to 1%. You can open paint/whatever and make one yourself.

Open one of these images full-screen, set your TV to its brightest proper setting (usually Expert bright room, or a custom 100/100/50/10/50/0/Gamma 2.2), turn your lights off, give your eyes a minute to adapt, and look for the shapes. Needless to see, this has to be done at night, or otherwise in a pitch black room.

If your theory is correct, these images should be completely invisible.
Instead, my own testing has shown all of the shapes, even the 0.1% ones, to be distinguishable on the C6, the C7, the B8, the C8, and the C9.
If you can't see anything, cheat by turning gamma up to 1.9. Once you see what to look for, step back to 2.2 and BT.1886. If you still can't see anything, either your room has other light sources or your TV is not set up correctly.

The fact that such dim colors are visible confirms that OLED are capable of displaying them.
The fact that you can only just see them in pitch dark confirms that they are indeed extremely dim.
So not only is OLED capable of displaying colors just above black, but it's so capable at it that you can't see the dimmest of these colors without eye adaptation.

The perceived "black crush" on OLED has nothing to do with the technology. The same will happen with dual-LCD or any other true black-capable technology. It is purely the result of displaying content graded for non-black-capable displays, where even 0% has a visible glow in a normal environment, on a black-capable display.

On a perfect display, the range between 0% and 5% should be deep shadows, and below 1% invisible except in complete darkness. If all of the dark areas are squeezed into that range instead, as was often done to boost image contrast on displays with poor black levels, it makes them fade into black as display technology improves in contrast.

This is a content problem and the only solution is to grade it in terms of absolute luminance rather than an arbitrary relative scale, an idea so radical it only came to be implemented a few years ago, in the HDR standard(s).


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It can't be adjusted out. What is typically done is raise all the black levels so the relative levels are OK, but then you lose the best part of OLED.
It's actually not hard to adjust this out.

To do so, go to Expert Controls, select White Balance, switch Method from 2-point to 20-point, or to 10 or 22 point on newer models, and raise the luminance on the lowest IRE settings until you're satisfied. It might be a couple menus deeper than Brightness, but it's not much harder or longer to do. Since you won't be touching the 0 point, black levels remain unaffected.

At least that's what is typically done by users on this forum.
It's not needed if you watch all your dark movies in a pitch black room with adapted eyes, otherwise is pretty much SOP to compensate for a small amount of ambient lighting.
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post #22 of 26 Old Yesterday, 07:18 AM
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My experience and testing don't support this theory.
Typically when someone uses the term "black crush" on this forum, I think they're usually talking about how levels well above black are displayed, maybe around 30% or less. Personally I haven't looked at near-black performance of OLEDs, but I'd look at how levels higher than 5% are displayed with different average picture levels (APL). The following comments about the C7 suggest that some OLEDs may tend to vary near-black performance to some extent depending on the brightness of the scene.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post52674873
"differences with various size and style measurement windows"
"a slight darkening of 10-30% as the APL changed"
"shadow detail may now suffer from small dynamic shifts"

Quote:
The perceived "black crush" on OLED has nothing to do with the technology. The same will happen with dual-LCD or any other true black-capable technology.
Again when I see the term "black crush" the person often seems to essentially be referring to different or changing light output for the same near-black video levels (roughly 30% or less), and potentially there could be gamma changes depending on the image displayed also. To some extent there is likely to be image variation for any sort of display that adjusts light output for identical SDR video levels (FALD dimming does this also). Since ABL is simply an aspect of consumer OLED, I wouldn't be surprised to find some level variation for SDR on OLEDs, especially if it was set to compete with LCD in a bright room. I'd expect that certain models probably perform better than others, and it's possible that limiting top light output of OLED might also affect near-black behavior. As shown on the dynamic brightness pattern mentioned in the link above, "black crush" will probably not be an issue on a calibrated display that can simply output the same amount of light for identical SDR video levels regardless of APL. Most LCD based displays with a fixed backlight should be able to pass that sort of brightness variation test, so I wouldn't expect what most people appear to mean by "black crush" to be an inherent issue for a dual-LCD display.

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Typically when someone uses the term "black crush" on this forum, I think they're usually talking about how levels well above black are displayed, maybe around 30% or less.
That's what I'm talking about as well.
Except 30% is by no means near-black. It's VERY bright. Full-screen bright red would represent less than 25% APL for a WOLED.

True, display-side black crush on analog displays, plasmas and CRT, resulted in a complete loss of output at low light levels. The same but a bit less predictably occurs on the Samsung Q9F (not sure about newer ones), it deliberately crushes zones with near-black color and low average down to its black level. With OLED, we're dealing with a different phenomenon - the "black crush" occurs in the retina, not in the display.


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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
To some extent there is likely to be image variation for any sort of display that adjusts light output for identical SDR video levels (FALD dimming does this also). Since ABL is simply an aspect of consumer OLED, I wouldn't be surprised to find some level variation for SDR on OLEDs, especially if it was set to compete with LCD in a bright room.
ABL is irrelevant to black crush. It's a software algorithm that dims the display a bit once APL exceeds a certain level - as high as 50% on recent displays.

That's bright beyond cinematic levels. It's a desktop filled with office applications displaying white sheets of paper. The screen looks like a torch by the time ABL begins to kick in. The average movie APL is less than 7%.

And since it's a software algorithm, it's completely predictable with fully known behavior. There is zero APL until your display begins turning into a torch. Try running a movie editor with a histogram tool and looking for frames that measure even 50%. In most movies, you will find none, except maybe in a studio logo.

In practice, it's only an issue (or rather really a blessing, as you don't want to state at a torch) for people using OLED as office monitors. Or it used to be with the C7. On the C9, even expanding my browser on this page to full-screen doesn't seem to toggle ABL.


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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
As shown on the dynamic brightness pattern mentioned in the link above, "black crush" will probably not be an issue on a calibrated display that can simply output the same amount of light for identical SDR video levels regardless of APL.
I have to respectfully disagree.

On any display that does exactly the above, it's mathematically impossible to eliminate perceptual black crush while maintaining true blacks.

You cannot simply discard the range of possible luminance between the minimum perceivable luminance (perceptual floor) in a dark room and the same in a bright room. You can't get rid of it. And you have to decide how to display your very darkest colors: to fit them in this sometimes-visible range, or not.

So either your display will look gray in a dark room, or it will have black crush in a bright room.

Let me illustrate:



You can set your 0 level (black) to look black in a bright room, but it will be the LCD gray haze we all have come to hate.

You can set your 0 level (black) to true black, if your display is capable of that (OLED or dual LCD), and that's what they currently do. But everything below the red line will be invisible (crushed) outside a dark room.

You can try an a-ha and set your 0 to true black, but start #010101 at the bright-room floor. The problem is that your shadows will have bright visible edges instead of a smooth gradient fading into black. You'll also massively amplify film or sensor noise between 0 and the lowest registered level.

You can use the 5% IRE tweak to get a compromise: less near-black gets crushed, while the area near black rises out a bit faster than normally.

There is no perfect solution. There is the perfectionist solution, to assume everyone has perfect viewing conditions, and use the perfect black curve. There is the option of avoiding any decision and just using a low-contrast panel that offers no choice. There are compromises. But no scenario in which you simultaneously have perfect blacks, consistent linear (logarithmic) response, and no black crush.

So how about we change the behavior dynamically, using an ambient light sensor, an APL statistic, and a perceptual model of the human eye? That's a new avenue of discussion, but the important part is that this would violate your precept - "output the same amount of light for identical SDR video levels". It would absolutely have to output a different amount of light depending on APL and ambient brightness. The model would also have to correct for varying vision responses.
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post #24 of 26 Old Yesterday, 11:40 AM
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To the OP: I'm a big believer that above a certain quality level, size trumps everything. Today's LEDs are really good even if they still fall short in some aspect. Personally I'd get the best 85" display you can afford from a retailer with a fair exchange policy. If you can live with whatever shortcomings it may bring, you keep it. If not, exchange for the 77" OLED. but boy will it look small at that point

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post #25 of 26 Old Yesterday, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonymoody View Post
To the OP: I'm a big believer that above a certain quality level, size trumps everything. Today's LEDs are really good even if they still fall short in some aspect. Personally I'd get the best 85" display you can afford from a retailer with a fair exchange policy. If you can live with whatever shortcomings it may bring, you keep it. If not, exchange for the 77" OLED. but boy will it look small at that point
Actually, a 77" screen is only 18% less area than an 85" screen (9% smaller in each dimension).

By comparison, a 64" screen is a wopping 31% less area than a 77" screen (17% smaller in each dimension).

I was on a DLP projection system with a 98" screen but the black levels were lousy and letterbox bars were visible.

Would never go back to those inferior black levels for a screen that is a full 56% smaller than my 65" WOLED (34% smaller in each dimension).

But we watch in the pitch-black, and as I commented on earlier, the better immersion of a larger screen is more than wiped out for us when letterbox bars are visible above black (WOLED delivers the true 'floating image' that we covet).
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post #26 of 26 Old Yesterday, 06:39 PM
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To the OP - similar for me. Debated 77” C8 vs 82” QLED. Both 4K.

Decided to go 77” C8, hoping/figuring the next upgrade in 4-5 years will be 80”+, AND 8K.

The idea was a decent upgrade now, but nice room to grow in the foreseeable future as well.

2¢ on how I thought it through.
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