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-   -   Hisense dual LED compared to OLED (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/3082094-hisense-dual-led-compared-oled.html)

mirekti 08-02-2019 09:10 AM

Dual LED compared to OLED
 
I thought this would be the correct subforum to post this topic as I am curious about what you thing might happen to OLED in 2020 when Hisense starts selling their panels.
Do you think all major manufacturers will start using their panels the way they use LG’s for OLED nowdays?
Any other thoughts about it?

8mile13 08-02-2019 09:28 AM

My guess is that that when things work out well Dual Cell LCD main impact will be on high-end LCD segment as well as manufacturers miniLED plans for LCDs in larger sizes (which also is high-end LCD segment related). Highly likely it will take away some modest market share from OLED also.

AnalogHD 08-02-2019 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mirekti (Post 58372976)
I thought this would be the correct subforum to post this topic as I am curious about what you thing might happen to OLED in 2020 when Hisense starts selling their panels.

Depends on whether they exceed OLED luminance by enough margin to matter. LG has been holding back for 3 years, favoring burn-in resistance over improving peak brightness.

If these panels go over 1,500 cd/m² or so, LG will likely increase brightness by a much larger step than they normally do. I'd expect ~950 for bottom emission and 1000-1050 for top emission OLED panels normally (they'll be cautious with the first gen), or ~1,100 and 1,200-1,500 respectively if Hisense ramps up a brightness war.


Quote:

Originally Posted by mirekti (Post 58372976)
Do you think all major manufacturers will start using their panels the way they use LG’s for OLED nowdays?

Definitely not.

There is no black magic in Hisense's dual-LCD, the way LG's Kodak patents protect their WOLED stack. The dual-LCD technology has been known for ages. But it adds cost and bulk, and until 2015-2016, when OLED clearly relegated LCD to being second-class displays, it just wasn't necessary or profitable for the LCD industry.

lsorensen 08-02-2019 11:17 AM

I certainly don't believe they will get close enough to OLED in black level handling. Will it be better than current LCDs? Sure, that's why the reference displays use such a setup, since they don't need to care about viewing angles, power consumption, display thickness and aesthetics, etc.

Making and aligning two LCD panels won't make LCD cheaper, and won't help overall brightness, so they may have to increase the backlight brightness to compensate so then power consumption goes up.

So interesting idea, and I can see why the pro displays use such a setup for high brightness reference setups, but for consumer TVs, it doesn't look sensible to me.

If somehow it did start to impact LG (and I don't think it will), they could start pushing their wallpaper and rollable models a bit more, which are certainly things and LCD will not be able to match.

Micolash 08-02-2019 05:56 PM

Vincent just measured 0.004 nit black level on the new Sony professional monitor. That's equal to a 9G Kuro or ZT60 plasma. With near pixel level control, that is a breakthrough for LCD. But it is inferior to OLED. And being an LCD it still suffers from poor viewing angles and uniformity. Peak brightness is 1000 nits, which is not far beyond what OLED is capable of right now; Panasonic is hitting 950 nits this year simply by swapping in their own power circuitry.

Keep in mind, this is a $30,000 professional grade monitor that is still not able to beat a consumer OLED, so the consumer versions of dual LCD (which will have to be affordable, thin, and power efficient) will be even further behind.

I think dual LCD is no threat to OLED, but it could be a huge leap for LCD which has basically hit a plateau with FALD.

Ice Cold 08-02-2019 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mirekti (Post 58372976)
I thought this would be the correct subforum to post this topic as I am curious about what you thing might happen to OLED in 2020 when Hisense starts selling their panels.
Do you think all major manufacturers will start using their panels the way they use LG’s for OLED nowdays?
Any other thoughts about it?

My guess is that Hisense’s goal is to be Disruptive to the LCD market. A 55” OLED will probably be cheaper than a Hisense 65” Dual Layer LCD, because they probably won’t even make a 55” model due to pricing.

Hisense is gambling on Dual layer LCD and TCL is gambling on Mini LEDs and LG is strong on OLED, with Alienware, Sony, Panasonic all as customers.

On the low End. Vizio is gonna be stuck

And Sony and Samsung, will battle for the 8K fools, and High End market share they will quickly vanish.

Dianabol5mg 08-02-2019 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ice Cold (Post 58375464)
My guess is that Hisense’s goal is to be Disruptive to the LCD market. A 55” OLED will probably be cheaper than a Hisense 65” Dual Layer LCD, because they probably won’t even make a 55” model due to pricing.

Hisense is gambling on Dual layer LCD and TCL is gambling on Mini LEDs and LG is strong on OLED, with Alienware, Sony, Panasonic all as customers.

On the low End. Vizio is gonna be stuck

And Sony and Samsung, will battle for the 8K fools, and High End market share they will quickly vanish.

http://www.theinvestor.co.kr/view.php?ud=20180611000455

Hisense started their OLED line last year in China. LG supplies their panels. This is their Aussie website for this years line.
https://oled.hisense.com.au/

Ice Cold 08-02-2019 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dianabol5mg (Post 58375960)
http://www.theinvestor.co.kr/view.php?ud=20180611000455

Hisense started their OLED line last year in China. LG supplies their panels. This is their Aussie website for this years line.
https://oled.hisense.com.au/

OLED panels are just a commodity. What matters is the CPU and Software controlling them.

Wizziwig 08-03-2019 02:34 AM

Sony has already discontinued their OLED reference monitor and replaced it with a dual layer LCD. Will be interesting to see what happens in the consumer space.


EvilBoris 08-03-2019 02:43 AM

It's exciting times for a new technology to come to the consumer market.
The current Reference monitors from Sony and Dolby are both using LCD dual modulation setups.

If we can take all of the strengths of what LED setups offer (high peak brightness and a larger colour volume) and combine it with improved black levels / reduced blooming, that is a big step up in the direction we need to be heading for displays.

The downside will be that by the time you combine it with an optical viewing angle filter, we will be at a point of the displays being amazing, but perhaps not cost-effective to bring to market.

JD23 08-03-2019 06:47 AM

I would be curious to see what Sony and Samsung could do with dual LCD. I think dual LCD is far more likely to be a viable replacement for high end FALD LCDs in the next few years than something like micro LED.

AnalogHD 08-03-2019 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ice Cold (Post 58375984)
OLED panels are just a commodity. What matters is the CPU and Software controlling them.

Nice soundbite. Too bad the reality is quite the opposite: most people on this forum will readily take a last-gen panel with LG's software over a first-gen Sony.

Software differences have little effect on OLED performance. There's no complicated overdrive or local dimming to manage, and LG's BI protection comes bundled with all panels. All of the differences amount to 1) worse or better SOE, which half the people can't stand in any form, and 2) upscaling of OTA-quality content - which only makes a difference between very bad and outright crappy, and most of which doesn't really look appreciably better on OLED than it does on LCD.

With 1080p bluray or better content, darkened room, SOE off, the norm for critical viewing, it comes down to the panel.

jl4069 08-03-2019 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wizziwig (Post 58376368)
Sony has already discontinued their OLED reference monitor and replaced it with a dual layer LCD. Will be interesting to see what happens in the consumer space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ee74qdPcmY

I found it very interesting that Vincent said Sony's new dual layer LCD actually had better near black performance than even their reference X300 OLED. j

jk82 08-03-2019 08:53 AM

Why is that surprising? Oleds have always had bad near-black quantization and near-black uniformity issues. Perfect blacks yes, but near-blacks...

Micolash 08-03-2019 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnalogHD (Post 58376928)
With 1080p bluray or better content, darkened room, SOE off, the norm for critical viewing, it comes down to the panel.

Not in my experience. There is a notable difference in image quality between my A9F and B6 even with 1080p content.

jl4069 08-03-2019 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jk82 (Post 58377424)
Why is that surprising? Oleds have always had bad near-black quantization and near-black uniformity issues. Perfect blacks yes, but near-blacks...

Reading posts here, i had more recently been under the impression that OLED's had progressed past near black issues.
Indeed most owners on here, say its not a problem for them. I also never heard anyone complain about near black issues on Sony's reference OLED. there are quite a few posts talking about how to fix the issue. Apparently it becomes more of an issue when compared with this dual Layer tech. If OLED can't do near blacks as well going forward that will be a issue compared to dual layer. j

Ice Cold 08-03-2019 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jl4069 (Post 58377292)
I found it very interesting that Vincent said Sony's new dual layer LCD actually had better near black performance than even their reference X300 OLED. j


Which means Sony will be releasing some 55” and 65” Dual Layer LCDs in 2020 for the price I’ll stick with Dual Layer Hisense.

Hetfieldjames 08-03-2019 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ice Cold (Post 58378580)
Which means Sony will be releasing some 55” and 65” Dual Layer LCDs in 2020 for the price I’ll stick with Dual Layer Hisense.

And the Sony dual layer LCDs will cost triple or more what the Hisense will be.

jl4069 08-03-2019 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hetfieldjames (Post 58378620)
And the Sony dual layer LCDs will cost triple or more what the Hisense will be.

while I think we would all admit that many Japanese brands charge too much for not so much better tech often...that its really hard to compete with China and Chinese subsidized companies, who pay workers near slave wages. Can't really see South Korea and Japan being able to compete in a significant way as the years pass. j

Hetfieldjames 08-03-2019 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jl4069 (Post 58378750)
while I think we would all admit that many Japanese brands charge too much for not so much better tech often...that its really hard to compete with China and Chinese subsidized companies, who pay workers near slave wages. Can't really see South Korea and Japan being able to compete in a significant way as the years pass. j

All true, no doubt about these points.

Gerry1975 08-03-2019 08:16 PM

This tv will disappoint many people next year. Don't get your hopes high.It's not any oled competitor, I have seen it on display.

JD23 08-03-2019 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hetfieldjames (Post 58378620)
And the Sony dual layer LCDs will cost triple or more what the Hisense will be.


Probably, but it would very likely be significantly better as well.

8mile13 08-04-2019 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gerry1975 (Post 58379754)
This tv will disappoint many people next year. Don't get your hopes high.It's not any oled competitor, I have seen it on display.

They did a prototype demo for Katzmaier who was impressed seeying it next to a OLED. So i doubt it will disappoint. I understand OLED blacks will be somewhat better but not by much.

Ice Cold 08-04-2019 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8mile13 (Post 58380584)
They did a prototype demo for Katzmaier who was impressed seeying it next to a OLED. So i doubt it will disappoint. I understand OLED blacks will be somewhat better but not by much.


Both Hisense and Sony Dual LCD Layer TVs will not be offered at 4K quite likely and nothing smaller than 65”

Just imagine the cost of a 8K 65” Dual Layer LCD. $5,000 Sony and $3,000 Hisense


Compared to OLED, Dual Layer LCD may be more expensive.

mirekti 08-04-2019 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ice Cold (Post 58380892)
Both Hisense and Sony Dual LCD Layer TVs will not be offered at 4K quite likely and nothing smaller than 65”

Just imagine the cost of a 8K 65” Dual Layer LCD. $5,000 Sony and $3,000 Hisense


Compared to OLED, Dual Layer LCD may be more expensive.

He says it would be 4k at 4.06, and the price is addressed at 5.40

CHASLS2 08-04-2019 11:12 AM

Nothing i want.

AnalogHD 08-04-2019 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micolash (Post 58377512)
Not in my experience. There is a notable difference in image quality between my A9F and B6 even with 1080p content.

...And there is a notable difference in age between them. The A9F is three years newer - half of the entire OLED history.

The reason I put 1080p bluray as the limit for where upscaling ceases to matter is that more than 90% of "4K" content is nothing more than studio-upscaled 2K content, at best. Since most people can't even tell the difference between that and native 4K productions, the difference in how 2K content is upscaled is trivial.

This is also confirmed by my own experiments with switching upscaling methods, even at a viewing angles exceeding SMPTE's closest-acceptable recommendations. It's not that it doesn't matter how you upscale 2K->4K, it's just that it's not consciously perceptible by a human at any distance where the entire screen is visible, and at any closer distance, it's disgusting no matter what.

Gerry1975 08-04-2019 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8mile13 (Post 58380584)
They did a prototype demo for Katzmaier who was impressed seeying it next to a OLED. So i doubt it will disappoint. I understand OLED blacks will be somewhat better but not by much.

Katzmaier is who, I saw this in a trade show early this year at the hisense booth. It was not the finished retail tv model but it was labelled as H9F. The picture punch wasn't there like oled. Perhaps the bright celing lights at the show was negatively affecting the perception, but just not the same contrast you get on oled. And in terms of brighness, it looked drab compared to a bright lcd like the sony zd9. And jerky movement appeared a big negative. Hisense is a chinese company, dont expect their motion to rival a sony tv or colour processing to rival a panasonic. Hisense makes oleds also, and movement on their oleds is nothing more than average.

Micolash 08-04-2019 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnalogHD (Post 58381736)
...And there is a notable difference in age between them. The A9F is three years newer - half of the entire OLED history.

The reason I put 1080p bluray as the limit for where upscaling ceases to matter is that more than 90% of "4K" content is nothing more than studio-upscaled 2K content, at best. Since most people can't even tell the difference between that and native 4K productions, the difference in how 2K content is upscaled is trivial.

This is also confirmed by my own experiments with switching upscaling methods, even at a viewing angles exceeding SMPTE's closest-acceptable recommendations. It's not that it doesn't matter how you upscale 2K->4K, it's just that it's not consciously perceptible by a human at any distance where the entire screen is visible, and at any closer distance, it's disgusting no matter what.

B6 uses a 2016 panel and A9F uses a 2018 panel. There is no huge difference between these two at the panel level. Even to this day, LGD does not claim it has made any quantum leap in their OLED panel since 2016. So whatever difference I'm seeing between both TVs image quality and motion handling is entirely down to video processing. And I'm not the only one has seen this difference who has owned both LG and Sony OLEDs. And I don't use motion interpolation either.

8mile13 08-04-2019 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gerry1975 (Post 58381920)
Katzmaier is who,

https://www.cnet.com/news/look-out-o...t-lower-price/
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gerry
I saw this in a trade show early this year at the hisense booth. It was not the finished retail tv model but it was labelled as H9F. The picture punch wasn't there like oled. Perhaps the bright celing lights at the show was negatively affecting the perception, but just not the same contrast you get on oled. And in terms of brighness, it looked drab compared to a bright lcd like the sony zd9. And jerky movement appeared a big negative. Hisense is a chinese company, dont expect their motion to rival a sony tv or colour processing to rival a panasonic. Hisense makes oleds also, and movement on their oleds is nothing more than average.

The Hisense ''dual cell'' prototype model is called ULED XD, the massproduction version is called U9E. btw it is only 65 inch currently. You must have seen something else.


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