Coming from plasma...which technology to get? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 63 Old 08-06-2019, 07:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Coming from plasma...which technology to get?

I need to get a new TV but I'm wary of OLED technology primarily because I watch lots of static image TV and because I watch a lot of soccer. I love my Panasonic Plasma but it's not going to last forever.



I don't need the best TV but I don't want it to be substandard to my current plasma in any way. I want deep blacks and that wonderfully natural look (I"m still resentful that they killed plasma!).



Am I stuck shopping within LCD technology? I've not appreciated the somewhat washed out and somewhat artificial look. Are there spectacular sets?



I'm wary of burn-in and won't be "varying the types of things I watch" in order to prevent it. What should I be looking at for plasma-like imagery, excellent action viewing, but with no burn-in worries in the 60 - 65 inch realm?



Thanks much for the insight! I appreciate the collective knowledge here.



Eric
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post #2 of 63 Old 08-06-2019, 09:07 PM
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Which plasma do you have?

Also, there is not a TV (especially not an LCD TV) that won't be substandard to your plasma in multiple ways. Plasma still has unrivaled motion, uniformity and viewing angles to both LCD and OLED.
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post #3 of 63 Old 08-07-2019, 05:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post
Which plasma do you have?

Also, there is not a TV (especially not an LCD TV) that won't be substandard to your plasma in multiple ways. Plasma still has unrivaled motion, uniformity and viewing angles to both LCD and OLED.

Well that's a terrible state of affairs! How can this be? It's unfortunate things went backward.



I have a Panasonic Viera. I regularly look for a larger plasma set to have a spare but they're becoming difficult to come by.


I guess that I will continue to wait for technology to improve.
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post #4 of 63 Old 08-07-2019, 06:29 AM
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Well that's a terrible state of affairs! How can this be? It's unfortunate things went backward.

If you like Panasonic plasma, then you won't like anything currently available. Motion, uniformity, upscaling to 4K of lower resolution source material (such as compressed 720p cable signals), viewing angles, the organic look of plasma RGB phosphors versus the somewhat artificial look of the filtered WOLED technology, are all issues.


There are a lot of opinions about how this came to be. My opinion is that it was a combination of consumers and big-box electronics salespeople not appreciating plasma, and 4K.


The issue of plasma getting short shrift in the showroom from salespeople and consumers has been discussed to death, so no need to beat that dead horse.


TV marketers and manufacturers rolled out 3D in order to try to stampede people into unnecessarily replace their televisions in order to get in on the "next big thing". When the 3D strategy cratered, they turned to 4K in order to try to encourage a stampede of unnecessary TV replacement. (I say unnecessary because the benefits of 4K are quite over-blown. 4K source material is relatively scarce, there are issues with upscaling lower quality sources, and most people cannot really see the benefit of 4K at the distances they sit from the screens of the size that they have).


4K was the death knell for plasma, for two reasons: power and cost.


Places with ill-conceived energy requirements made it nearly impossible to produce competitive plasma panels. For example, California in 2013 instituted regulations so harsh that the 55" Panasonic VT used almost 50% more power than California allowed. Maybe Panasonic could have addressed by clever engineering and/or reducing the brightness of the picture, but a 4K plasma would have required 4 times as many pixels, and that just wasn't going to meet energy requirements in California.


Due to the investment required to develop 4K plasma panels (independent of energy consumption) and the cost of manufacturing them, 4K plasma was never going to be possible at a realistic cost point.


And so it ended.
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post #5 of 63 Old 08-07-2019, 07:41 AM
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the organic look of plasma RGB phosphors versus the somewhat artificial look of the filtered WOLED technology
The plasma primares are Rec 709 so each one has more of the other two colours emitted. WOLED/OLED is Rec 2020 so the primaries are monochromatic although we're not 100% there yet. I suspect the WOLED looks artificial because it hasn't been calibrated for SDR and is displaying colours outside of Rec 709.

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I say unnecessary because the benefits of 4K are quite over-blown. 4K source material is relatively scarce, there are issues with upscaling lower quality sources, and most people cannot really see the benefit of 4K at the distances they sit from the screens of the size that they have).
I agree that 4K wasn't really necessary and I would be fine with 1080p. It's the HDR and Rec 2020 colour space which is the big PQ improvement and is why I went from my perfectly working plasma to a WOLED. Wish they made a plasma that could do HDR but the power draw would be crazy.

Not sure why you think 4K material is scarce. There is plenty of 4K material on Netflix and Prime. All the new movies I watch now are all 4K. HDR titles are more rare but HDR TV technology is much newer than 4K.
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post #6 of 63 Old 08-07-2019, 07:44 AM
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Am I stuck shopping within LCD technology?
You are not going to like LCD coming from a plasma. OLED is currently the best technology to replace a plasma with but sounds like you won't be satisfied with one.

Micro LED will probably be the perfect replacement for a plasma but that's tech is still a few years away for home use.
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post #7 of 63 Old 08-07-2019, 07:47 AM
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Well, I disagree with some of the posts above. IMO, OLED is the only way to go for plasma owners. You will not be happy with the blacks, contrast, or side angle viewing of LCDs. I recently went from a Panny plasma to a Sony OLED (A9G), and couldn't be happier. It has the best processor of all the OLEDs, and I don't see any problems with upscaled 1080i/720p broadcasts, motion handling, or side angle viewing compared with my plasma. The only thing it doesn't have is 3D, but I average watching in 3D less than once a year, and put my plasma in my basement for the rare need to see something in 3D. Burn-in is way overblown, as long as you don't watch static logos 24/7 in Vivid mode. If your plasma did not develop BI with your current viewing habits, it's unlikely you would have a problem with OLED.
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post #8 of 63 Old 08-07-2019, 07:53 AM
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When my second Samsung plasma got the second and third green vertical bar running up and down and ruining my picture I ditched it and plasma for the LG OLED 65 C8.
And I have been thrilled. 4K with HDR, including Dolby Vision, PQ has never been better.
I would never go back, AND my home theater cooling bill has gone way down too, not hot as the dickens like my plasmas were.
I was careful to never burn in my plasmas and am careful to never burn in my OLED.
Just be smart and reasonable.
I recommend OLED. Big time.
God Bless,
Wayne
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post #9 of 63 Old 08-07-2019, 08:17 AM
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We have 4 Panasonic plasmas, going back to the EDTV days of 2003. When I wanted something new for the sunroom, I seriously looked at and bought a Sony oled. As much as I love my 55VT60, oled beats it in so many ways. I thought cable tv would look worse given how compressed it is today but it actually looks better on the Sony than it does on plasma. The color gamut is wider, which combined with the brightness makes the colors really pop out at you. Viewing angles are not an issue, it looks just as good from the sides as it does on center. As a real world anecdote, while I was setting up the tv and running various demos, even my mom stopped what she was doing to look up and ask why this tv looks so much better than all the rest of our other TVs. Take it from a panasonic plasma evangelical, you wont regret going to oled.
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post #10 of 63 Old 08-07-2019, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by email4eric View Post
Well that's a terrible state of affairs! How can this be? It's unfortunate things went backward.

I have a Panasonic Viera. I regularly look for a larger plasma set to have a spare but they're becoming difficult to come by.

I guess that I will continue to wait for technology to improve.
It seems pretty much all display types other then CRT and Plasma are sample and hold and that causes motion problems. So OLED, LCD and future things like microLED all have that problem. If they could increase the scan rate to something up around 500 to 1000 Hz then it should apparently be possible to do black frame insertion that could simulate the fading of CRT/Plasma to solve the motion issue, but currently 120Hz is the limit on OLED (although LG was trying to do something that effectively gave 240Hz this year but then dropped it due to other issues) and I don't think I have seen higher than 240Hz on LCD with backlight modulation. Maybe they will get there eventually. LG had some 480Hz 1080 LCDs 10 years ago, but not 4K.

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post #11 of 63 Old 08-07-2019, 09:42 AM
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You are not going to like LCD coming from a plasma. OLED is currently the best technology to replace a plasma with but sounds like you won't be satisfied with one.

Micro LED will probably be the perfect replacement for a plasma but that's tech is still a few years away for home use.
MicroLED is still sample and hold so it doesn't seem like that would solve motion issues in any way.

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post #12 of 63 Old 08-07-2019, 09:44 AM
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Just to add, I went from a Panasonic 60GT50 to an LG 65C9. I'm not going back.
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post #13 of 63 Old 08-07-2019, 09:48 AM
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MicroLED is still sample and hold so it doesn't seem like that would solve motion issues in any way.
True. But BFI should be easier with more light output. I was thinking of the burn in resistance.
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post #14 of 63 Old 08-07-2019, 09:51 AM
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True. But BFI should be easier with more light output. I was thinking of the burn in resistance.
Well we don't know how much more light they can give and how burn in resistant they would be. And really what we need is higher refresh rate on the panel to better control how long the pixels are lit. After all CRT and Plasma pixels fade very fast. Always amazes me that with such fast fade, the human eye still thinks they are bright even though the average light level over time is very low. But if it didn't work that way, we would probably not have had movies in the first place or at least not until someone found a way to run much higher frame rates on the film.

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post #15 of 63 Old 08-07-2019, 10:01 AM
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Well we don't know how much more light they can give and how burn in resistant they would be. And really what we need is higher refresh rate on the panel to better control how long the pixels are lit. After all CRT and Plasma pixels fade very fast. Always amazes me that with such fast fade, the human eye still thinks they are bright even though the average light level over time is very low. But if it didn't work that way, we would probably not have had movies in the first place or at least not until someone found a way to run much higher frame rates on the film.
LEDs can go crazy bright. I've seen a few videos of tiny ones and they had to use a filter to keep people from being blinded.

96Hz and 120Hz should be sufficient. You can do a 50% and 75% BFI with 96Hz and 80% with 120Hz. But you'll have to increase the light output by 2x, 4x and 5x respectively to keep the same brightness.

Hopefully the C9 gets the better BFI with a future firmware update.
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post #16 of 63 Old 08-07-2019, 12:33 PM
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Not sure why you think 4K material is scarce. There is plenty of 4K material on Netflix and Prime. All the new movies I watch now are all 4K. HDR titles are more rare but HDR TV technology is much newer than 4K.
It is "relatively" scarce, at least for me.


Cable TV is not in 4K (and won't be for a long time if ever).


I got the LG 65C8 in September (because I had to buy something, old TV died). Within a month, I had watched everything 4K on Netflix and Prime that I wanted to watch. I went on Amazon and searched for 4K Blu-Rays that I wanted to watch. I bought 6 or 8.


There's a trickle of new material on Netflix and Prime, and a trickle of new movies that I want to watch, but most of what I watch is in 1080p or worse.
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post #17 of 63 Old 08-07-2019, 01:09 PM
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Cable TV is not in 4K (and won't be for a long time if ever).
Cable has not been know to be on the forefront of technology. My provider is a phone company so they went the IPTV route. This gives them more flexibility as they don't have to upgrade everyone in an area to offer new things. Even though they have 4K it's the on demand and some sport channels currently. It's the upstream providers of the normal channels that are not offering 4K feeds.


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There's a trickle of new material on Netflix and Prime, and a trickle of new movies that I want to watch, but most of what I watch is in 1080p or worse.
Still better than what it was when I first got 1080p. That was truly abysmal. Compared to that, what we have now with 4K is huge.
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post #18 of 63 Old 08-07-2019, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by avernar View Post
You are not going to like LCD coming from a plasma. OLED is currently the best technology to replace a plasma with but sounds like you won't be satisfied with one.

Micro LED will probably be the perfect replacement for a plasma but that's tech is still a few years away for home use.
That's not necessarily true. You can't just assume everyone feels the same as you. I went from a 50VT30 to a 55KS8000 and I loved the KS8000. Now I also have a C8 and it blows the plasma away.
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post #19 of 63 Old 08-07-2019, 02:38 PM
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Yes, AND
upscaled 1080p on my C8 looks sweet as!!!!!
God bless,
Wayne
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post #20 of 63 Old 08-07-2019, 03:01 PM
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That's not necessarily true. You can't just assume everyone feels the same as you. I went from a 50VT30 to a 55KS8000 and I loved the KS8000. Now I also have a C8 and it blows the plasma away.
Never said everyone Just the OP. Reading their post, odds are super high they would not be happy with an LCD.
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post #21 of 63 Old 08-07-2019, 03:22 PM
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***You'll get lots of opinions on what to transition to. OLED has motion, banding and tinting issues. Banding is a real killer for any sports - - notably soccer or golf. (See https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...tting-251.html)

If you go any larger than a 65" set - - OLED will be quite pricey. Personally, I've been very happy with a middle of the road Sony 75" 900F - especially the motion handling, no banding and exceptional "upscaling" of my cable sources with incredible shadow detail. Blacks are black enough for me. But I've never been a "blacker than black" aficionado. Absolute lights out with Netflix, Amazon Prime & "OTA." Off center viewing will never be an issue for me - - I'm smack dab in the middle, viewing wise.

Try OLED, if you can, with a solid return policy. That seems to be the "Plasma Lovers" first choice from what I see on these threads. Remember - - no TV is perfect and if you've gotten settled in with Plasma and find anything else unacceptable, then ride it out as long as you can. Maybe even find another Plasma set with little usage, if that's possible. Good luck with your journey.

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post #22 of 63 Old 08-07-2019, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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If you like Panasonic plasma, then you won't like anything currently available. Motion, uniformity, upscaling to 4K of lower resolution source material (such as compressed 720p cable signals), viewing angles, the organic look of plasma RGB phosphors versus the somewhat artificial look of the filtered WOLED technology, are all issues.


There are a lot of opinions about how this came to be. My opinion is that it was a combination of consumers and big-box electronics salespeople not appreciating plasma, and 4K.


The issue of plasma getting short shrift in the showroom from salespeople and consumers has been discussed to death, so no need to beat that dead horse.


TV marketers and manufacturers rolled out 3D in order to try to stampede people into unnecessarily replace their televisions in order to get in on the "next big thing". When the 3D strategy cratered, they turned to 4K in order to try to encourage a stampede of unnecessary TV replacement. (I say unnecessary because the benefits of 4K are quite over-blown. 4K source material is relatively scarce, there are issues with upscaling lower quality sources, and most people cannot really see the benefit of 4K at the distances they sit from the screens of the size that they have).


4K was the death knell for plasma, for two reasons: power and cost.


Places with ill-conceived energy requirements made it nearly impossible to produce competitive plasma panels. For example, California in 2013 instituted regulations so harsh that the 55" Panasonic VT used almost 50% more power than California allowed. Maybe Panasonic could have addressed by clever engineering and/or reducing the brightness of the picture, but a 4K plasma would have required 4 times as many pixels, and that just wasn't going to meet energy requirements in California.


Due to the investment required to develop 4K plasma panels (independent of energy consumption) and the cost of manufacturing them, 4K plasma was never going to be possible at a realistic cost point.


And so it ended.
Thank you Shadowspawn for taking the time to summarize that history. I appreciate it!


And thanks to everyone for all of the helpful input!



I'm not afraid to try an OLED set but they are expensive and would need to find the best version for motion and the burn in thing freaks me out a bit.



What would be the best OLED sets to look at for a soccer fan who watches CNN and MSNBC regularly?


I do continue to look for a plasma or two for backups.



Thanks so much you guys! I appreciate you all entertaining naive questions!
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post #23 of 63 Old 08-08-2019, 07:13 AM
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What would be the best OLED sets to look at for a soccer fan who watches CNN and MSNBC regularly?
Everyone uses the same panels (they are all from LG Display), so the differences are all in styling, features, and firmware / software. At the high end, the two main choices (in the USA) are LG and Sony. Panasonic is available outside of the USA.


I might be a little out of date, because it's been almost a year since I had to replace my broken plasma TV with an OLED, but for the 2018 models at least, this is what I remember.


The Sony has better motion handling and upscaling. It's not a huge difference, but enough that some people have a strong preference. This is because Sony has better secret sauce in their video processing than LG has.


The Sony Android TV user interface was slow and clunky compared to the LG Web OS interface, which is snappy and nice; I believe I've heard that the 2019 Sony has improved in this regard, due to a new and more powerful processor.


The Sony had more aggressive ABL than the LG, and a somewhat more subdued picture.


We went with the LG 65C8, because I object to ABL, my wife likes a picture with more "pop" (she'd be happiest with an LCD in "torch mode"), and I think the Sony was $700 more expensive at the time.


As soon as I got the LG settled in, I was appalled by the motion handling. Sports seemed almost unwatchable (a football in flight, fast action in a baseball game). Cable news was noticeably worse than plasma. This is due to the sample-and-hold technology used by all OLED panels.


After a lot of fiddling around with the motion fine-tuning features of the LG (which introduce additional processing), the insertion of a DarbeeVision DVP-5000S into the cable feed, and a calibration by Chad B, I can live with it now and be mostly happy, but it ain't no plasma. If I was looking at OLED this year, I'd give the Sony stronger consideration than I gave it last year.
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post #24 of 63 Old 08-08-2019, 05:58 PM
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If you turn the OLED light down to a reasonable level you will not burn in an OLED. Don't be scared of burn in. Always has been way over hyped. Just substitute Fox News for CNN and MSNBC and you'll be fine.
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post #25 of 63 Old 08-08-2019, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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If you turn the OLED light down to a reasonable level you will not burn in an OLED. Don't be scared of burn in. Always has been way over hyped. Just substitute Fox News for CNN and MSNBC and you'll be fine.

Funniest post of the thread! HA!!
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post #26 of 63 Old 08-08-2019, 10:26 PM
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If you turn the OLED light down to a reasonable level you will not burn in an OLED. Don't be scared of burn in. Always has been way over hyped. Just substitute Fox News for CNN and MSNBC and you'll be fine.



So I like to watch a lot of news and want to enjoy my tv before the end of the world happens; I set the brightness to 'min' on my Sony to watch just TV on. Can I relax now watching maybe an hour or less of news channels most nights?
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post #27 of 63 Old 08-09-2019, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by BillP View Post
Well, I disagree with some of the posts above. IMO, OLED is the only way to go for plasma owners. You will not be happy with the blacks, contrast, or side angle viewing of LCDs. I recently went from a Panny plasma to a Sony OLED (A9G), and couldn't be happier. It has the best processor of all the OLEDs, and I don't see any problems with upscaled 1080i/720p broadcasts, motion handling, or side angle viewing compared with my plasma. The only thing it doesn't have is 3D, but I average watching in 3D less than once a year, and put my plasma in my basement for the rare need to see something in 3D. Burn-in is way overblown, as long as you don't watch static logos 24/7 in Vivid mode. If your plasma did not develop BI with your current viewing habits, it's unlikely you would have a problem with OLED.

Agree here - many of us "plasma guys/gals" went OLED and are pretty happy. They aint perfect but I tried LCDs(numerous models from many mfgers) and every one of them got returned. Once you've gone with an emissive display tecjh and get used to it.... you cant get away. LCDs have made some headway for sure and the top models from Sony are very good. But, OLED still wins out and inch for inch usually cost less than the top LCDs.



My 2016 model LG E6 has been just wonderful thus far and I get to enjoy arguably the best 3D ever available for home use. At least until it dies.
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post #28 of 63 Old 08-09-2019, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ou8thissn1 View Post
So I like to watch a lot of news and want to enjoy my tv before the end of the world happens; I set the brightness to 'min' on my Sony to watch just TV on. Can I relax now watching maybe an hour or less of news channels most nights?
I use a Panny 50GT30 plasma as my computer monitor. No issues with burn. It's like an athlete. When you afraid of getting hurt that's when it happens. Same with burn in. I run about 38 ft lamberts of light on my plasma's. My LG OLED is putting out about 50 and that's with the OLED light at 34 so you don't need to crank it up. That's when you get hurt.
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post #29 of 63 Old 08-09-2019, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by email4eric View Post
Funniest post of the thread! HA!!
I call it BDS (Burnin derangement syndrome)
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post #30 of 63 Old 08-09-2019, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by RoadLizard View Post
Agree here - many of us "plasma guys/gals" went OLED and are pretty happy. They aint perfect but I tried LCDs(numerous models from many mfgers) and every one of them got returned. Once you've gone with an emissive display tecjh and get used to it.... you cant get away. LCDs have made some headway for sure and the top models from Sony are very good. But, OLED still wins out and inch for inch usually cost less than the top LCDs.



My 2016 model LG E6 has been just wonderful thus far and I get to enjoy arguably the best 3D ever available for home use. At least until it dies.
Ya I'm with ya. I've hated LCD's ever since I had one many years ago. Will they please just go away already. Total inferior technology and OLED's are getting cheap.
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