Competition for Oleds? 1000 Zone mini led... - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 97 Old 08-24-2019, 07:52 PM
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lol, the hardheadedness never ends at AVS. I see I didn't miss too much on my hiatus due to family loss.
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post #62 of 97 Old 08-24-2019, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
Sigh done conversing with you.


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You sighted bezels, heat and motion possessing as your argument. I'm done with you too. Have a nice night yourself.
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post #63 of 97 Old 08-24-2019, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
lol, the hardheadedness never ends at AVS. I see I didn't miss too much on my hiatus due to family loss.


It hasn’t changed one bit , it actually mimics society right now sadly .


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post #64 of 97 Old 08-24-2019, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
It hasn’t changed one bit , it actually mimics society right now sadly .


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And don't forget burn in. You even said burn in. lol
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post #65 of 97 Old 08-25-2019, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
It hasn’t changed one bit , it actually mimics society right now sadly .
I'd have slit my wrists by now if I still had an active Twitter account.
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post #66 of 97 Old 08-25-2019, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Test Ickles View Post
True but but the black level and contrast is the same from then until now. VT60 still beats a 2019 under my rules for the shootout. Same light output, darkroom and SDR only.
Haha, I have not been on here for years, but had to reply to this.

I bought a VT60 after the reviews, thought it was worse overall than my Pioneer 500M and my older Panny PF11 I think it was at the time.

Under your rules? Low light output, why? Darkroom, don't need to sit in a dark room anymore.
SDR? I'm actually not a massive fan of HDR, too many sets imho get it wrong, and with a room that is not dark the overall image can be too dark itself.

The fact of the matter is, the VT60 was good, very good, but not as good as some of Panasonics commercials that were already out or the Pioneers. I preferred the commercial Panny over the Pioneer.
The Pioneer on paper was better, better colour accuracy, greyscale, went darker etc. However, the image was cleaner and just nicer to watch on the Panny commercial. And that is all that matters. Hence, your opinion is just that, you are not wrong if you think that, but you are wrong if you tell others their opinion is not valid.

But the fact is, they have all been beat by both OLED and LCDs as far as I'm concerned. My XE9005 is better than any plasma I have owned, my OLEDs are better still. I struggle to understand how anyone could think otherwise compared with a VT60, but if you do great.
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post #67 of 97 Old 08-25-2019, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Test Ickles View Post
True but but the black level and contrast is the same from then until now. VT60 still beats a 2019 under my rules for the shootout. Same light output, darkroom and SDR only.

Maybe....just maybe you could be right. But, limiting light output and using SD content only is like saying your Honda Accord will out run a Ferrari 458 Italia IF you force the race to be in heavy traffic & cut the Ferraris engine output using some type of governing system on the fuel delivery side. In other words, the test case isnt that valid, IMO. The Panny VTs were fabulous TVs. Just like my KURO was. But, I dont miss my KURO at all. Ever. My OLED beats it out in pretty much every meaningful category.

I will admit that motion handling is probably better overall on the KURO. Its not the 2016 OLEDs strong point so thats one check for the KURO.
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post #68 of 97 Old 08-25-2019, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
lol, the hardheadedness never ends at AVS. I see I didn't miss too much on my hiatus due to family loss.
lol.... I was thinking the same thing. Oh also everyone is an expert on everything. If you ever need manufacturing expertise or advice just come to AVS forums.
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post #69 of 97 Old 08-25-2019, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Test Ickles View Post
Ever seen a VT60? Something about it. Maybe it's the native RGB vs the WOLED. IDK. It's just better.
Actually I passed on it as well as the ZT and bought the Samsung F8500 because I liked the brighter screen

My OLED is brighter( and darker) than all of them


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post #70 of 97 Old 08-25-2019, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Test Ickles View Post
And don't forget burn in. You even said burn in. lol
Do you ever watch HDR material?
Maybe I am jaded because my OLED is in my media room and that is 90% of what I watch on it

Casual watching is typically done in my great room on the Sony Z9D....which is a great display( IMO) as well


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post #71 of 97 Old 08-25-2019, 12:26 PM
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Which magical VT60 has an MLL of 0 fL? Even if you cap light output to plasma levels and only watch 1080p/SDR my B6 will smoke the VT in both a dark and bright room. Only thing it does better is motion. A9F? You can forget about it, that thing is on another level.

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post #72 of 97 Old 08-26-2019, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Test Ickles View Post
Nope. The VT60 is just better at SDR than the OLED. Both are calibrated by me.
Ah, so it's nostalgia. Got it...
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post #73 of 97 Old 08-28-2019, 09:36 AM
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I own a 65B7A and find that it suits my current streaming and cable tv needs better than my retired Panny Plasma. When I purchased it, I had viewed all of the LCDs, edge lit, back lit FALD Z9D , Quantum Dot etc etc etc at the time. THe OLED came closest to the performance of my plasma black level wise and was far superior in brightness and crispness (4K vs 1080P).

Having said all of that, IMHO - I would not for one minute underestimate the impact that mini led will have on the TV marketplace. The brightness freaks will be able to be satisfied. The blacks freaks are going to get a set that, in time I beleive, will rival OLED blacks. Bear in mind that this is the first generation of this tech on a commercially available product that consumers can go out and buy. As TCL evolves the tech, developing more precise control over dimming zones, blooming will become minimal to non existent. And I'm thinking they'll likely add more LEDs to the mix as they learn more about how to manufacture them and individually address and control them.

And I seriously doubt that Samsung and Sony are going to stand pat while TCL beats them to the punch technologically while undercutting them on price. Who knows, TCL could potentially become the LGD of Mini LED, selling panels to other manufacturers who add their own control and processing software.

OLED needs to get brighter to compete going forward as the AVERAGE consumer, I believe, judges by what their eyes see in the store. Brightness counts and when you add rich inky blacks to the deal, I think TCL has a winner on it's hands. That's until others find a way to catch up in the ability to display very bright images coupled with inky blacks and minimal to no blooming.

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post #74 of 97 Old 08-28-2019, 11:54 AM
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I think they have to catch up to OLED first, not TCL.
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post #75 of 97 Old 08-28-2019, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by PannyMann View Post
OLED needs to get brighter to compete going forward as the AVERAGE consumer, I believe, judges by what their eyes see in the store.
It's not targeting the *average consumer* just yet. The average consumer judges by the price sticker, especially if there's a big "discount" written on it.

Any attempt to compete with LCD in brightness is pointless, it's cheap to just add bigger LEDs or to double them up. The only limiting factors are power supply and heat removal. LCD will always be brighter than competing techs, including micro-LED, as long as it cares to compete.

TCL's product is just another FALD, it will have the same good-but-not-quite blacks as every other top-of-the-range FALD to this point. The 100" Sony Z9D has 1500 zones, it doesn't look like an OLED, and Sony's got more expertise in the algorithms than TCL.
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post #76 of 97 Old 08-28-2019, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by AnalogHD View Post
It's not targeting the *average consumer* just yet. The average consumer judges by the price sticker, especially if there's a big "discount" written on it.

Any attempt to compete with LCD in brightness is pointless, it's cheap to just add bigger LEDs or to double them up. The only limiting factors are power supply and heat removal. LCD will always be brighter than competing techs, including micro-LED, as long as it cares to compete.

TCL's product is just another FALD, it will have the same good-but-not-quite blacks as every other top-of-the-range FALD to this point. The 100" Sony Z9D has 1500 zones, it doesn't look like an OLED, and Sony's got more expertise in the algorithms than TCL.
These minLED LCDs are not just another FALD, since zones are smaller they are more comparable to the ZD9 were each led is a zone. TCL has a miniLED roadmap, plans to increase these zones within a few years to 15,500 zones, on a 75 inch that is. So that is something else than the 100'' ZD9 which according to Vincent Teoh has 1,000 zones with ''almost as deep blacks as OLED''.
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post #77 of 97 Old 08-29-2019, 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
These minLED LCDs are not just another FALD, since zones are smaller they are more comparable to the ZD9 were each led is a zone. TCL has a miniLED roadmap, plans to increase these zones within a few years to 15,500 zones, on a 75 inch that is.
That will be another product.
We'll get to discussing that product when it's out.

This product - the thread's title even specifically says "1000-zone", not "future 15K zone" - is just one more manufacturer offering a high-grade FALD with a high zone count and reduced bleeding between the zones.


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So that is something else than the 100'' ZD9 which according to Vincent Teoh has 1,000 zones with ''almost as deep blacks as OLED''.
The 100" ZD9 has 1508 zones.
The zones in all Z9D models are all ~the same size, so the 65" has 646, the 75" 858, the 100" 1508: https://www.displayspecifications.co...rison/aba8cf36

I can attest that the difference between the Z9's "almost black" and OLED's black is a pretty wide gap. It's about the same as the difference between a straight non-FALD VA panel and a high-grade FALD like the Z9D. Some other members who use the Z9D daily have that impression as well.
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post #78 of 97 Old 08-29-2019, 08:06 AM
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Once they pass a certain zone count, each LED won't require a lot of brightness and electricity to operate. At that point, they'll be able to etch the circuits for the backlight. And the number of zones will be able to scale tremendously. Right now LEDs can be made so small that you can barely see them unless they're on.
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post #79 of 97 Old 08-29-2019, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by AnalogHD View Post

Any attempt to compete with LCD in brightness is pointless, it's cheap to just add bigger LEDs or to double them up. The only limiting factors are power supply and heat removal. LCD will always be brighter than competing techs, including micro-LED, as long as it cares to compete.
Far from pointless, we all know that bright screens with colors that pop sells. It's why OLED brightness has continued to increase since initial introduction. It's also why, as well all know, manufacturers send their sets out in "torch mode". Regardless of how it might look at home, it's eye catching at Best Buy.

I'm an OLED fan. But I'm also a fan of innovativeness that drives competition which benefits all of us.

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post #80 of 97 Old 08-29-2019, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by AnalogHD View Post
That will be another product.
We'll get to discussing that product when it's out.

This product - the thread's title even specifically says "1000-zone", not "future 15K zone" - is just one more manufacturer offering a high-grade FALD with a high zone count and reduced bleeding between the zones.
I was talking about miniLED LCD in general.

You might call it a conventional FALD i do not. They are using minLEDs which makes the zones smaller than traditional FALD. Aside from that AUO for instance aims to refine the brightness, dynamic contrast, and grayscale of those products with Mini LED backlight and the number of Mini LEDs used is more than that of standard LEDs in a module.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnalogHD
not "future 15K zone
Samsung attempted to lauch a 85'' 10,000 zones miniLED LCD a year ago but did not go through with it because of costs. So manufacturers could launch such display now if they wanted to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AnalogHD
The 100" ZD9 has 1508 zones.
The zones in all Z9D models are all ~the same size, so the 65" has 646, the 75" 858, the 100" 1508: https://www.displayspecifications.co...rison/aba8cf36
Sony did not give away number of zones on ZD9 models. Folks who counted the ones on the 65'' agree that it has 630 or 646 zones. I am not 100% convinced anyone has the right numbers here. Several experts were most impressed with the 100'' version which seem to have better blacks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnalogHD
I can attest that the difference between the Z9's "almost black" and OLED's black is a pretty wide gap. It's about the same as the difference between a straight non-FALD VA panel and a high-grade FALD like the Z9D. Some other members who use the Z9D daily have that impression as well.
Several experts were more impressed with the 100'' version. Are you talking about the 100'' version here?
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post #81 of 97 Old 08-29-2019, 09:34 AM
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I buy the TV with the best technology at the time I am buying a TV. I am not married to any technology. If LCD can produce the best for my needs at the time I will buy it, if it is OLED, micro LED, some new tech we have never heard of, I will buy it.

I do not think that this years TCL 1000 zone set will out do this years OLEDs. But, since the set is not out, it is impossible to tell how well it will do. But, it does signal (along with dual layer LCDs) coming technology that could out perform OLEDs soon. But, of course OLEDs will improve too. OLEDs have weaknesses too -- color volume, brightness, price, etc. But, if you see the recent Vincent video on what Panasonic has done to today's OLED, squeezing out another 200 nits and cutting down burn in issues in the process, one could only imagine how much better they will get in the future.

I am glad to see technology marching on in several areas, and I will be happy to buy the winner(s).
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post #82 of 97 Old 08-29-2019, 10:06 AM
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"Why have black when you can have almost black?"

- Mini LED manufacturers
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post #83 of 97 Old 08-30-2019, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Micolash View Post
"Why have black when you can have almost black?"

- Mini LED manufacturers
Because for the VAST majority of customers, who don't stare at their screens looking for "imperfection" (PQ Freaks like us), they can't see the difference.

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post #84 of 97 Old 08-30-2019, 03:17 PM
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Interesting demonstration that clearly shows they group the mini-leds at 7 across and 4 down to form each rectangular zone.
(~25,000 total mini-led) / (28 mini-led per zone) = about 892 individually addressable rectangular zones.

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post #85 of 97 Old 09-10-2019, 03:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
I was talking about miniLED LCD in general.

You might call it a conventional FALD i do not. They are using minLEDs which makes the zones smaller than traditional FALD. Aside from that AUO for instance aims to refine the brightness, dynamic contrast, and grayscale of those products with Mini LED backlight and the number of Mini LEDs used is more than that of standard LEDs in a module.

Samsung attempted to lauch a 85'' 10,000 zones miniLED LCD a year ago but did not go through with it because of costs. So manufacturers could launch such display now if they wanted to.



Sony did not give away number of zones on ZD9 models. Folks who counted the ones on the 65'' agree that it has 630 or 646 zones. I am not 100% convinced anyone has the right numbers here. Several experts were most impressed with the 100'' version which seem to have better blacks.

Several experts were more impressed with the 100'' version. Are you talking about the 100'' version here?
Right they didn't but many have found similar numbers to what he posted so I'm not sure what you are saying?


Yeah and people don't understand the method Sony uses as...


"Discrete LED Control:
Backlight Master Drive uses a new, innovative algorithm to control the TV’s ultra-dense LED structure. Each LED is controlled individually for a picture even more precise than that of a standard full-array TV, which groups LEDs into larger zones."


Which=thousands of LED's.


How many I don't know.

Z9D Settings Dolby Vision, Gaming etc
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post56126450
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post #86 of 97 Old 09-10-2019, 05:55 AM
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Right they didn't but many have found similar numbers to what he posted so I'm not sure what you are saying?
There are folks that found different numbers. It is also stated that it is difficult to count ZD9 zones. So one can not be 100% shure.

flatpanelshd
''On Sony’s TV we are counting 35x18 zones (others are reporting 34x19 but let us not quarrel over that), which amounts to a total of 630 zones.''


hdtvtest
''Sony’s local dimming algorithm was so good, and the halos so well-controlled, that we were struggling to determine the exact number of independently dimmable zones. Using our own custom-authored test pattern containing a small white box crawling horizontally then vertically against the edges of a black screen, and after forcing HDR mode to exaggerate the haloing/ blooming, we counted 36 vertical columns and 18 horizontal rows, giving a total of 648 dimming zones. We’ll be the first to admit that this is only a guestimate, and the true number probably lies somewhere between 600 and 650.''
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post #87 of 97 Old 09-10-2019, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
There are folks that found different numbers. It is also stated that it is difficult to count ZD9 zones. So one can not be 100% shure.

flatpanelshd
''On Sony’s TV we are counting 35x18 zones (others are reporting 34x19 but let us not quarrel over that), which amounts to a total of 630 zones.''


hdtvtest
''Sony’s local dimming algorithm was so good, and the halos so well-controlled, that we were struggling to determine the exact number of independently dimmable zones. Using our own custom-authored test pattern containing a small white box crawling horizontally then vertically against the edges of a black screen, and after forcing HDR mode to exaggerate the haloing/ blooming, we counted 36 vertical columns and 18 horizontal rows, giving a total of 648 dimming zones. We’ll be the first to admit that this is only a guestimate, and the true number probably lies somewhere between 600 and 650.''
Like I said similar numbers.
You are quoting the findings for the 65 inch.

The numbers he posted is the ballpark that most are finding.

Z9D Settings Dolby Vision, Gaming etc
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post56126450
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post #88 of 97 Old 09-10-2019, 09:35 AM
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Like I said similar numbers.
You are quoting the findings for the 65 inch.

The numbers he posted is the ballpark that most are finding.
I am just being precise.

the 65'' The pro at Digitalfernsehende counted 35x18 adding a questionmark. Same result as the pro at flatpanelshd = 630 zones. With a few other pro's counting 648 with one of them stating ''true number probably lies between 600 /650''.

The 75'' hardly any pro counted the zones...maybe one..Same with the 100'' which also has no owner present on a forum.
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post #89 of 97 Old 09-10-2019, 09:56 AM
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I am just being precise.

the 65'' The pro at Digitalfernsehende counted 35x18 adding a questionmark. Same result as the pro at flatpanelshd = 630 zones. With a few other pro's counting 648 with one of them stating ''true number probably lies between 600 /650''.

The 75'' hardly any pro counted the zones...maybe one..Same with the 100'' which also has no owner present on a forum.
So you are dismissing findings of forum members? Also Vincent Teoh is hardly a pro? LOL

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https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post56126450
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post #90 of 97 Old 09-10-2019, 12:00 PM
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So you are dismissing findings of forum members? Also Vincent Teoh is hardly a pro? LOL
One takes a look at what everybody has to say about the subject with pro-reviewers/experts opinion carrying more weight.
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