Competition for Oleds? 1000 Zone mini led... - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 97 Old 08-15-2019, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Competition for Oleds? 1000 Zone mini led...

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post #2 of 97 Old 08-15-2019, 06:27 PM
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Competition is great for all of us. But we'll have to wait and see after reviewers and calibrators actually can get their hands on these displays. According to the article on this topic that is already on the main page of this forum, "Compared to OLED, viewing angles are limited. And compared to Samsung’s top QLEDs, the antireflective coating on this TCL is not nearly as effective." So not quite an OLED killer. And not sure many will want to buy a TCL.
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post #3 of 97 Old 08-15-2019, 06:40 PM
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It's good that TCL and Hisense are still pushing the LCD envelope. I'm disappointed that Sony has seemingly thrown in the towel on high-end LCD development.
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post #4 of 97 Old 08-16-2019, 12:09 PM
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Zone count in the 500-1000 zone range has been the norm for high-end FALD LCD TV for years. For TCL, beating top Sony or Samsung models will be tough even with a slight edge in zone count. It takes a 10x increase in zone count to get a visible difference, not 2x (and this is less).

It will begin to count as a different technology once you're past at least 20K zones, and preferably around 100K. At 20K zones, they'll be 400 pixels (in 4K), which is an issue for starfields, but good otherwise. At 100K zones you'll have one per every 4 DVD pixels, pushing blooming down to the edge of perception.
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post #5 of 97 Old 08-17-2019, 04:05 PM
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I think this will primarily help TCL's traditionally piss-poor uniformity/DSE scores (see rtings reviews or owner threads) by having more LEDs to even out the brightness. Not going to do much to raise overall LCD picture quality bar past existing flagships we've seen from Samsung or Sony. At least this will be cheaper if you're willing to play the QC lottery.
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post #6 of 97 Old 08-17-2019, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AnalogHD View Post
Zone count in the 500-1000 zone range has been the norm for high-end FALD LCD TV for years. For TCL, beating top Sony or Samsung models will be tough even with a slight edge in zone count. It takes a 10x increase in zone count to get a visible difference, not 2x (and this is less).

It will begin to count as a different technology once you're past at least 20K zones, and preferably around 100K. At 20K zones, they'll be 400 pixels (in 4K), which is an issue for starfields, but good otherwise. At 100K zones you'll have one per every 4 DVD pixels, pushing blooming down to the edge of perception.
At 1:28 Vincent says this tv will have more than 25,000 mini LED's. Not sure why his title says "1000"...?


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post #7 of 97 Old 08-17-2019, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Kenbar View Post
At 1:28 Vincent says this tv will have more than 25,000 mini LED's. Not sure why his title says "1000"...?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShLwzxwaYAg
Says 25,000 mini leds in 1000 dimmable zones, which is correct. The tv does not have 25,000 zones.
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post #8 of 97 Old 08-17-2019, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
Says 25,000 mini leds in 1000 dimmable zones, which is correct. The tv does not have 25,000 zones.
He actually addresses the 25k LEDs vs 1k zones in the video. The technology just isn't there yet to control that may zones.

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post #9 of 97 Old 08-18-2019, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by JD23 View Post
It's good that TCL and Hisense are still pushing the LCD envelope. I'm disappointed that Sony has seemingly thrown in the towel on high-end LCD development.
Yeah, of all the LCDs it was the Sony’s that IMO had the most potential and got most things "right" when it came to picture quality. They still lost out to OLED overall but they were a viable alternative for those that didn’t want an OLED. Sony is clearly in the OLED camp and will continue to drive forward with that tech.

LCD to me has reached its peak, IMO. It takes so much "work" to get them to pass as legit videophile TVs that it’s starting to get tiring. They are great for the lower and some middle markets though. Plenty of folks don’t care seriously about PQ that much so a bright LCD is perfect for them.
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post #10 of 97 Old 08-18-2019, 05:24 AM
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Lol no. Maybe 10,000 zones. Preferably 100,000 zones.
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post #11 of 97 Old 08-18-2019, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by RoadLizard View Post
Yeah, of all the LCDs it was the Sony’s that IMO had the most potential and got most things "right" when it came to picture quality. They still lost out to OLED overall but they were a viable alternative for those that didn’t want an OLED. Sony is clearly in the OLED camp and will continue to drive forward with that tech.

LCD to me has reached its peak, IMO. It takes so much "work" to get them to pass as legit videophile TVs that it’s starting to get tiring. They are great for the lower and some middle markets though. Plenty of folks don’t care seriously about PQ that much so a bright LCD is perfect for them.
LOL how has LCD reached it peak with miniLED/dual layer LCD hitting the market next few years?
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post #12 of 97 Old 08-18-2019, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by RoadLizard View Post
Sony is clearly in the OLED camp and will continue to drive forward with that tech.
Ironic that Sony has moved away from OLED in favor of dual-layer LCD for their professional displays. Don't count LCD out yet; as the dual-layer tech filters down to consumer displays in the next couple of years, we could see the industry shift back in LCD's favor.
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post #13 of 97 Old 08-19-2019, 05:28 AM
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The problem for this TV and future dual layer LCDs is cost. This TV comes from a value brand, andit will still be priced around street price of the C9 when it releases in the fall. While TCL's 6 series offers excellent value, no LCD available yet will beat OLED on picture quality. Peak brightness probably will probably be around 1k nits, which is not that much more than OLED while taking the hit on dark room performance and viewing angles.

The 75" TCL could be compelling for someone wanting a larger screen at a 1-2k discount from OLED and willing to accept the PQ differences for the price. The dual layer LCDs are going to be more expensive than this TCL right when OLED prices will start falling with significantly increased production capacity from a new plant coming online.
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post #14 of 97 Old 08-19-2019, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by JD23 View Post
It's good that TCL and Hisense are still pushing the LCD envelope. I'm disappointed that Sony has seemingly thrown in the towel on high-end LCD development.
Thrown in the towel on high-end LCD? They currently have an LCD on the market that starts at $15k...

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post #15 of 97 Old 08-19-2019, 09:58 AM
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The problem for this TV and future dual layer LCDs is cost. This TV comes from a value brand, andit will still be priced around street price of the C9 when it releases in the fall. While TCL's 6 series offers excellent value, no LCD available yet will beat OLED on picture quality. Peak brightness probably will probably be around 1k nits, which is not that much more than OLED while taking the hit on dark room performance and viewing angles.

The 75" TCL could be compelling for someone wanting a larger screen at a 1-2k discount from OLED and willing to accept the PQ differences for the price. The dual layer LCDs are going to be more expensive than this TCL right when OLED prices will start falling with significantly increased production capacity from a new plant coming online.
It shouldn't cost much more than current LCDs to manufacture. All they're essentially doing is increasing the back light zone count. The extra cost will be almost entirely due to R&D. Not due to higher component or manufacturing costs.
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post #16 of 97 Old 08-19-2019, 10:34 AM
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Respectfully, zone count does add cost. In major ways.

An edge-lit can be made with as little as a single strip of LED at the bottom of the diffuser.
A cheap backlit (<100 zones) uses several LED strips at the back of the diffuser.
Typical dimmed backlits (200-500 zones) use a full-screen PCB. Full-screen PCB are expensive.
The more zones, the more expensive. The wiring for 1K+ zones will push it from $100 to past $200 per square meter.
And of course more LED are more expensive than fewer more powerful ones. Pick-and-placing more LED is more expensive.

Reduced-bleed FALD use an additional 3D structure and a non-standard diffuser. That adds further costs.
Similarly, dual-LCD mean two panels instead of one, two controllers, and brighter backlight, a step further in cost.

For years, the LCD industry was all about making things as cheap as possible, then throwing the consumer a new bone each generation to placate them. Some useful like 3D or 4K, some less so like curved screens, but all cheap to make. Now it's finding itself in need to throw some money at the product to make it competitive.

This will certainly work to maintain more niches for LCD screens than just low-end granny TVs. However, it's also happening as OLED is pushing down its manufacturing costs, and the base technology itself is simple and scalable. So LCD's future at the middle of the market is very questionable, seeing how the base tech is non-competitive quality wise, and the remaining quality improvements are not well cost-scalable.
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post #17 of 97 Old 08-20-2019, 02:24 AM
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LOL how has LCD reached it peak with miniLED/dual layer LCD hitting the market next few years?
Yeah well we’ll see how that pans out. As I mentioned it’s just one gizmo or whatever electronic doohickey after another to try to get LCD where it truly competes with emissive displays and they always fall short. They’ve been playing the "new and improved" or "this time we really got it right" game for years and still aren’t where they need to be. Getting old now. So now it’s mini, dual layer, micro, blah blah blah. OK. I’ll check one out. Will it have the black levels serious viewers demand? Viewing angles that aren’t super narrow? All that stuff? If so and they aren’t priced ridiculously....I could be interested. Until then? Nah, ain’t cutting it.

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Ironic that Sony has moved away from OLED in favor of dual-layer LCD for their professional displays. Don't count LCD out yet; as the dual-layer tech filters down to consumer displays in the next couple of years, we could see the industry shift back in LCD's favor.
LCD has a good hold on the industry but that’s in the lower to middle ranges. I won’t count them out and someday I could own one but as I mentioned above they’ve had a decades to get these displays where they need to be for a more educated viewer and can’t figure it out. I also wouldn’t use professional displays as any indication of what Sony is doing with consumer displays. Not even remotely close to the same use cases. I’m not married to any particular tech but until LCD fixes some of its inherent problems I can’t use one as my main screen. If they get it "right" then I’ll be there buying one.

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post #18 of 97 Old 08-20-2019, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by RoadLizard View Post
micro
You mean MicroLED? Because that's not LCD anymore. If they can perfect the tech at 50 to 80 inch sizes it will kick OLED's ass.
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post #19 of 97 Old 08-20-2019, 08:05 AM
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You mean MicroLED? Because that's not LCD anymore. If they can perfect the tech at 50 to 80 inch sizes it will kick OLED's ass.

My bad.... if Micro LED is actually a different tech then so be it. If it beats out OLED then thats what Ill buy!
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post #20 of 97 Old 08-20-2019, 08:13 AM
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My bad.... if Micro LED is actually a different tech then so be it. If it beats out OLED then thats what Ill buy!
The confusion stems from LCD manufacturers calling their TVs "LED" with Samsung's QLED being the biggest culprit. That's just the backlight technology but is still a transmissive LCD display.


MicroLED is an emissive display like OLED. Each subpixel (red, green and blue) is an individual LED. Completely different tech than LCD and much closer to OLED.
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post #21 of 97 Old 08-21-2019, 06:02 AM
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My bad.... if Micro LED is actually a different tech then so be it. If it beats out OLED then thats what Ill buy!
If it beats out OLED and you win the lottery, you mean.
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post #22 of 97 Old 08-21-2019, 02:50 PM
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The confusion stems from LCD manufacturers calling their TVs "LED" with Samsung's QLED being the biggest culprit. That's just the backlight technology but is still a transmissive LCD display.


MicroLED is an emissive display like OLED. Each subpixel (red, green and blue) is an individual LED. Completely different tech than LCD and much closer to OLED.
Yep, LCD mfgers calling their sets LEDs has not helped consumer confusion. I’ve had to explain to numerous people that they actually own an LCD and their TV just uses LED backlighting. Usually met with a big, juicy "huh" look, lol.

Either way, it’s sounds promising and I am in if it comes to fruition at a consumer level price point.

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If it beats out OLED and you win the lottery, you mean.
Oh, why? Is this one of those techs that will be awesome but never be attainable by people not named Bezos or Gates?
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post #23 of 97 Old 08-22-2019, 02:19 AM
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Oh, why? Is this one of those techs that will be awesome but never be attainable by people not named Bezos or Gates?
It already is awesome. Well... as in, about 50% better than OLED now.

But the manufacturing method is terrible. Wafers are cut up into a millions LED, then each LED has to be packaged, placed on the circuit board, and soldered to it. It works, but it doesn't scale. Making 1,000 of these costs almost 100 times as much as making 10.

It isn't a new technology, either, but exactly how all PCB, like receivers, computers, phones are produced. So to the extent that building more machines could make them cheaper, it's already being done across the whole electronics industry.

There are some ways to cut costs, say with simpler machines designed for one type of component and a fixed grid. But that's still an improvement of at most a few times, not orders of magnitude. And at $200k+ current prices, that won't make it to the mass market.

Nor is there any reason for it to. The subset of people who only care for PQ is small. Most people want a TV that's convenient to use, stylish, reliable, has the features they need, and a great picture. There has always been a market for monstrosities that pursue PQ at any cost, and it's always been small.
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post #24 of 97 Old 08-22-2019, 07:53 AM
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But the manufacturing method is terrible. Wafers are cut up into a millions LED, then each LED has to be packaged, placed on the circuit board, and soldered to it. It works, but it doesn't scale. Making 1,000 of these costs almost 100 times as much as making 10.
That's only needed for a panel type display. This was posted somewhere on the forums a while ago:

That's perfect for AR and VR applications once they get a single chip RGB version out. I don't see why this can't be used in a three chip projector in its current form.

The biggest hurdle is getting this and other MicroLED tech out to the consumer market.
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post #25 of 97 Old 08-22-2019, 09:22 AM
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Thrown in the towel on high-end LCD? They currently have an LCD on the market that starts at $15k...

The Z9G is an extremely low-volume one-off with a minimum size of 85", so it is barely relevant to this discussion. The top mainstream LCD that Sony currently sells is the X950G (the Z9F is being discontinued and current inventory is slowly being liquidated), which is effectively a refreshed X900E and has a lower number of zones than all of its competitors. Contrast this situation to that of a couple of years ago, when Sony was selling the Z9D, X940E, and X930E, all of which are clearly superior to the X950G. Sony has indicated that consumers should buy OLED for decent dark room performance and reference viewing, whereas LCD is intended for general consumer applications. Sony will likely be destroyed by the likes of TCL and Hisense, which can offer more features per dollar, if it focuses on the low and mid end.
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Yeah, of all the LCDs it was the Sony’s that IMO had the most potential and got most things "right" when it came to picture quality. They still lost out to OLED overall but they were a viable alternative for those that didn’t want an OLED. Sony is clearly in the OLED camp and will continue to drive forward with that tech.
Is Sony really driving forward OLED tech (since all they do is buy the LG panel) because it appears that all they do is just focusing on the image processor (X1 Ultimate) and applying that to everything from LCD to OLED?
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post #27 of 97 Old 08-22-2019, 10:14 AM
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The Z9G is an extremely low-volume one-off with a minimum size of 85", so it is barely relevant to this discussion. The top mainstream LCD that Sony currently sells is the X950G (the Z9F is being discontinued and current inventory is slowly being liquidated), which is effectively a refreshed X900E and has a lower number of zones than all of its competitors. Contrast this situation to that of a couple of years ago, when Sony was selling the Z9D, X940E, and X930E, all of which are clearly superior to the X950G. Sony has indicated that consumers should buy OLED for decent dark room performance and reference viewing, whereas LCD is intended for general consumer applications. Sony will likely be destroyed by the likes of TCL and Hisense, which can offer more features per dollar, if it focuses on the low and mid end.
The Z9G is totally relevant. It's 85" because it's 8K. All the 8K sets from all the manufacturers are in the 80s of inches. It's a consumer TV. It's not some MicroLED prototype or MicroLED commercial application TV. It's an expensive set, but it's a mainstream set.

The Z9G is the top mainstream LCD that Sony sells. They haven't given up on that space.

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post #28 of 97 Old 08-22-2019, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by AnalogHD View Post
Nor is there any reason for it to. The subset of people who only care for PQ is small. Most people want a TV that's convenient to use, stylish, reliable, has the features they need, and a great picture. There has always been a market for monstrosities that pursue PQ at any cost, and it's always been small.
THIS. I have the A9G OLED for dedicated cinema in a dark room, and just picked up the Hisense H9F on a whim for our living room, brightly lit, mixed use area for sports/Xbox/nintendo gaming and let me tell you, visitors are more impressed with the H9F. Yes, the OLED looks awesome, and I'm a critical movie watcher fully appreciating the subtle color and lighting of a great OLED in the dark. However, people are just wowed by saturated bright colors (similar to the Q9FN) of the H9F. When they found out it was literally a quarter of the MSRP of the Sony, they were in shock as they thought it was a "flagship" level product. Needless to say, this drove quite a few friends and family to pick up the Hisense because they hadn't realized that good image quality has trickled down so dramatically. 1000 nit in a bright room really makes a difference.

The law of diminishing returns is hitting LCD technology hard and affecting premium models from Sony and Samsung. I can see why Sony has abandoned LCD. How can Sony charge $2,000 for a "master" LCD TV when budget TVs for $899 gets you 95% of the way there, with that last 5% only noticeable in certain scenes under certain conditions, otherwise indistinguishable! As snobbish as consumers may be, they'll be willing to pay a few $$ hundred for a badge upgrade, but twice the price is a bit much.
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post #29 of 97 Old 08-22-2019, 10:59 AM
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The Z9G is totally relevant. It's 85" because it's 8K. All the 8K sets from all the manufacturers are in the 80s of inches. It's a consumer TV. It's not some MicroLED prototype or MicroLED commercial application TV. It's an expensive set, but it's a mainstream set.

The Z9G is the top mainstream LCD that Sony sells. They haven't given up on that space.
I actually have my eyes on Sony's pricing strategy here. I do want to upgrade to 8K at some point, but only after Sony locks down its manufacturing logistics and economies of scale a bit more - I'm not willing to pay for the inefficiencies of early adoption technology. Sony's 77" OLED is currently $7,000, so for pricing consistency, it would make sense that the next size up would cost between $8,500 and $10,000. Samsung's 82" 8K started at $10,000 and is now $8,000. Within this context, I expect the Z9G to drop to $10,000 next year.
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post #30 of 97 Old 08-22-2019, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Stuntman_Mike View Post
The Z9G is totally relevant. It's 85" because it's 8K. All the 8K sets from all the manufacturers are in the 80s of inches. It's a consumer TV. It's not some MicroLED prototype or MicroLED commercial application TV. It's an expensive set, but it's a mainstream set.

The Z9G is the top mainstream LCD that Sony sells. They haven't given up on that space.

I don't think you understand the definition of mainstream. The Z9G is a TV with an MSRP that is over 25% of the median household income in the US and is as mainstream as a Rolls Royce. 85" and 98" LCDs will never truly be mainstream because of their inherent size constraints. Sony's highest end mainstream LCD is the X950G.
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