HDTVtest 2019 UK TV Shootout Discussion - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 195 Old 08-20-2019, 05:43 AM
 
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The problem with a TV blindtest is that a informed audience can guess what the brand is. How a uninformed audience judges does not really matter much anyway except for marketing. What you get is people putting energy into brand guessing as well as judging. So i say no to that.

In the UK Shootout i would have used different models...the best 2019 65 inch the OLED manufacturers have for sale with exception of the ZG2000 which is more like ultra high-end-ish. That way you get a more equal field.

I am not really a fan of the 3 OLED 1 LCD setup. Those are different TV techs. That should be a TV tech shootout with 2 LCDs/2 OLEDs 3LCDs/3 OLEDs etc...
the Philips 804 is a superb oled according to European review sites and also deserved to be there at the UK event, but according to Vincent they haven't launched the 804 in the UK so far , so it couldn't be included. The Philips P5 processor is no slouch and it gives you something no other TV can - Ambilight.
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post #122 of 195 Old 08-20-2019, 05:47 AM
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There is no doubt there WiLL be some differences in scoring when professionals are voting vs when general public is voting. If you re-did the us shootout with the public scoring, there will undoubtedly be differences in the scoring conpared to what the professionals scored in the u.s event earlier this year.
Don't get me wrong, of course different people have different tastes and different ways to see things, I'm not referring to voting results, I'm talking about coherence of different parameters and how they apply to the Best HT TV and Best LR TV awards.

If we are saying that key parameters for the best home theatre award are 1) contrast performance, 2) color accuracy, 3) 24fps smoothness and 4) dark uniformity (I would also add tone-mapping/HDR performance) then results (from "amateurs" and "pros") stated that LG has better performance in 3 parameters out of 4; I doubt that the weight of each parameter might skew toward the Panasonic.

I guess this year we have different parameters from what we had in 2018, in this case I'm looking forward to see Vincent's shootout video.

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post #123 of 195 Old 08-20-2019, 05:58 AM
 
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Don't get me wrong, of course different people have different tastes and different ways to see thing, I'm not referring to voting results, I'm talking about coherence of different parameters and how they apply to the Best HT TV and Best LR TV awards.

If we are saying that key parameters for the best home theatre award are 1) contrast performance, 2) color accuracy, 3) 24fps smoothness and 4) dark uniformity (I would also add tone-mapping/HDR performance) then results (from "amateurs" and "pros") stated that LG has better performance in 3 parameters out of 4; I doubt that the weight of each parameter might skew toward the Panasonic.

I guess this year we have different parameters from what we had in 2018, in this case I'm looking forward to see Vincent's shootout video.
Sure Vincent would do better to keep the parameters and categories consistent from year to year so we can compare results to previous years. But this year that wasn't the case, as well as this year not allowing professionals to have a say in the scoring. We can't draw an apples to apples comparison to previous years which pana won in 2018 and 2017. A laid out set of standards would be better and the same are supposed to be followed every year. There is scope for improvement.
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post #124 of 195 Old 08-20-2019, 06:38 AM
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Then what was the point declaring that c9 is no brainer based on tthe UK MRP of the four models you saw? It does not matter.
I was sharing an opinion, lol. You know, like people do in forum discussions.
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post #125 of 195 Old 08-20-2019, 06:43 AM
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It doesn't really matter which TV wins these shootouts. How the tests are conducted every year, what parameters are evaluated (and not evaluated), and the audience that scores them are different every time.

What each brand does better than the others hasn't changed in the past few years. Personally I don't find LG a match for Sony for what I want out of a display. Someone else may find LG or Panasonic a better fit for their needs.
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post #126 of 195 Old 08-20-2019, 06:58 AM
 
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Based upon what Robert and jref wrote above about content, if one brand's tone mapping gives an advantage with some scenes while another brand's mapping fares better with other scenes, I wonder how could we arrive at a scientific consensus on what all scenes should be evaluated at the event.
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post #127 of 195 Old 08-20-2019, 07:01 AM
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Sure if you were basing it on the models the event had. But lg's c9 is a lower model based on price, lg's higher priced models are the e9 and w9
I wouldn't call the C9 "lower" model as the extra cost of the others doesn't do anything for PQ. The E9 has better sound but if you have an AVR that doesn't matter. The W9 is super thin but doesn't have VRR so for some it's a more expensive downgrade.

Picture quality is the same for all three so no reason to test the E9 and W9 over the C9.
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post #128 of 195 Old 08-20-2019, 07:05 AM
 
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It doesn't really matter which TV wins these shootouts. How the tests are conducted every year, what parameters are evaluated (and not evaluated), and the audience that scores them are different every time.

What each brand does better than the others hasn't changed in the past few years. Personally I don't find LG a match for Sony for what I want out of a display. Someone else may find LG or Panasonic a better fit for their needs.
Same way I don't find KEF a match to Bowers and Wilkins for my needs lthough many swear by the Uni-Q driver.and in some speaker 'blind test' evaluations KEF comes out on top.
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post #129 of 195 Old 08-20-2019, 07:24 AM
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So I agree, blind testing is a good idea just a little hard to implement. But also we need to come up with a common agreed upon set of videos and test patterns that both TV Shootouts can use so we are comparing apples to apples. From what I understand, some content impacted the Sony in the UK shootout and as you know there was content which impacted the LG in the US shootout which impacted the results since these sets are so close.
John, I suspect that you get cooperation with the UK shootout on content, especially since Robert has a relationship with Vincent.
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post #130 of 195 Old 08-20-2019, 07:30 AM
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^Wow, lets just keep throwing stuff up against the wall and see what sticks. It was a blind test and sure the sets were calibrated...this is not LG first win at a shootout, if the results showed the opposite, I bet no one would say anything...give me a break.

When a certain brand loses, their are always those who just want to come up with ways to poke holes in the way the shootout was conducted, neither shootouts are infallible and dont satisfy all period...also no one should let a shootout determine their purchase. Sony won the US shootout, LG won the European won...

LG won, it Was a scientific shootout and it was fair...get over it.
^ This!

Another reason I like the concept of blind shootouts is because even professionals, yes professionals, can be either consciously or subconsciously impacted by brand bias. I guarantee you it happens.
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post #131 of 195 Old 08-20-2019, 07:56 AM
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It has been a category for at least the last few years in the UK shootout. It's the american shootout that tends to act like gaming does not exist which is a mistake in my opinion. Gaming for the last 15-20 years has fueled the adoption of television and technology so it definitely makes sense that it would be included as a category.

Sales of HD televisions lagged until The Xbox 360 and PS3 were released. Sales of HDR televisions did not take off until after the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X launched.

It's well known that a huge part of the reason dvd and blu ray succeeded is because PS2 and PS3 adopted it. The PS3 was considered one of the best blu ray players for movie watching at one time in addition to high definition gaming.

Correct, the last few years(since 2017) it's been a category in the UK shootout so not exactly a storied history. Not everyone games but I am 100% certain anyone who is interested in this niche AV does watch a lot of movies/shows on their TVs which is why that has always been the focus. They get a reference TV/Monitor and score against that. In otherwords the purpose I would assume is to fully calibrate the TVs in reference conditions and then compare these displays against a professional grading monitor used by the studios to master movies/TV.


The problem is that a major changing of the goal post and results end up getting weird the more you add to a shootout. Throw in more categories like best tvOS/design/sound and results will get even further. This is why the results of the two shootouts are completely different. Sony beats LG in the US but not only does LG beat Sony in the UK Sony doesn't even place in second. That's a result in the flaw of allowing not only public voting but gaming.

The main reason this worries me is that if companies like Panasonic who strive to market reference tvs can't even win a shootout among a niche enthusiasts with an ultra expensive custom panel then what motivation is there to even continue that path? LG can market that a C9 is the 'king of TVs' as voted by a well know AV site even if just by other publications picking up on the story. So now here's the headline on Forbes "LG OLED Edges Rivals In Clash Of The TV Titans".

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc.../#47821c2d3d44



And like a great greek tragedy Panasonic has lost both shootouts when they released a flagship model that was a 'shoe in' to win. They lost the 2013 US shootout do to the public voting(Samsung Plasma won because it was brighter and the experts picked the ZT60) and now the LG won in UK(once again public voting and added in gaming category).
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post #132 of 195 Old 08-20-2019, 08:00 AM
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Your point about test content is excellent because in the VE Shootout, I forget the name of the scene we played but it was a sunset and the LG tone mapped the sun out of existence. You could barely see the sun in that segment which hurt the LG. We also played the 2001 star field and again the LG displayed it incorrectly all which impacted the results. Maybe there should be an agreed upon set of test videos and test patterns which can be used to make the comparisons more equal. I'm sure Robert and Vincent can come up with a standard set to use for both events. Now that we have the new Spears disk this might be more easily accomplished.
Yes, if that's the approach going forward, it's important that test clips that benefits one brand's approach to HDR be counterbalanced by another that might benefit the other brand. I could easily see a problem arise if once again brand bias creeps in and videos are selected to 'showcase' one brand over the other...even in a blind test. The fact that it's a blind test would be irrelevant if all the clips are biased in one brand's direction.
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post #133 of 195 Old 08-20-2019, 08:16 AM
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I think we are done with this thread. Everything has been discussed and it should be closed.

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Originally Posted by Gerry1975 View Post
Sure Vincent would do better to keep the parameters and categories consistent from year to year so we can compare results to previous years. But this year that wasn't the case, as well as this year not allowing professionals to have a say in the scoring. We can't draw an apples to apples comparison to previous years which pana won in 2018 and 2017. A laid out set of standards would be better and the same are supposed to be followed every year. There is scope for improvement.


Vincent has never had “professional” vote, you are confusing with the VE US TV Shootout, where they are the only votes that decide the winner.
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post #135 of 195 Old 08-20-2019, 10:43 AM
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It's amazing how one can integrate politics into this. Unreal.
He was likely just joking with tongue in cheek, but did have a point. People are putting too much stock in the results of 38 random people making subjective choices on categories or select material that some find arbitrary.

Bottom line, all are top tier and people are overthinking the results. I'm sure it was a fun event to attend.

Personally I think the Panasonic and Sony are a notch above LG for a couple reasons, but who cares.

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post #136 of 195 Old 08-20-2019, 11:01 AM
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After working two TV Shootouts I think many take all the work that's involved somewhat for granted. Sure it's a fun event but at the end of the day something meaningful has to come out of it. Many don't realize really how much work it is to put an event like this together. Everything has to be flawless from the calibrations to the execution of the event. There is no room for error or the credibility of the event is impacted. At the last TV Shootout here in the US, I was surprised how the technical level of the analysis was raised from previous years using Stacy's new disk to using the test patterns and video content of the upcoming Murideo 7G TPG. We used test patterns and test videos in addition to the consumer titles that showed every aspect of the good and not so good performance of each TV.

These TV Shootouts have evolved from the past years and we should be very appreciative of both Robert Zohn and Vincent Teoh for holding them each year. I'm sure Vincent will be highlighting pros, cons and nuances discovered at his shootout in his next video which will be helpful to all.

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post #137 of 195 Old 08-20-2019, 02:03 PM
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I am not doubting, and I'm very appreciative of, the hard work that goes into pulling off these events. Having said that, I do think it is a pretty fair point to bring up that if the event is open to anyone that just calls themselves an enthusiast to be a judge, that the results can be viewed with at least a tiny amount of speculation. That's not coming from someone that is bummed that Sony or Panny didn't win. First, I don't care. Second, I have an LG OLED.

I do like that they masked the TVs. Someone brought up that that could bring up other issues in terms of thought process, which I can see that point of view, but in general, I like the blind judging. I'd love to see a shootout with blind professional judging. Again, it has nothing to do with the actual winner, I personally, just think that would be a better evaluation, but nothing is perfect.
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post #138 of 195 Old 08-20-2019, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul Jarman View Post
I am glad to see the C9 pick up a win here especially that Sony and Panasonic were supposed to dominate and was quite surprised to see the scoring for best theatre TV so close.

These results just reaffirm my view that there is very little difference between the major Oled brands and personal preferences regarding aesthetics the UI, remote and pricing play an important role in device selection.
Exactly you can't lose with any of the OLED's They're all fantastic
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post #139 of 195 Old 08-21-2019, 07:46 AM
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Looking at the new video from Vincent, this shootout does seem to be a rather low end affair compared to the US. Why are random audience members subjectively judging color accuracy? Color accuracy is something you measure, not something you "judge". It's like asking audience members which building is the tallest. Vincent himself has shown the calibrated color tracking charts for the Panasonic. Am I supposed to seriously believe the LG C9 beats that? Just because the audience thinks so? Also, having a category for tone mapping seems odd, since there is no right or wrong way to tone map.

My impression is that the UK shootout was mainly about what the average consumer is drawn toward, which makes me question why there was even a reference monitor there at all. The US shootout was clear about finding out which display is closest to the reference.
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post #140 of 195 Old 08-21-2019, 11:50 AM
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Totally disagree. I see absolutely nothing wrong with having attendees judge color accuracy relative to the most respected grading monitor out there. Of course if you were hoping for a different ranking outcome I can see where you’re coming from.

I actually think this shootout was done beautifully, right down to the drawing of the curtains when source inputs or content was changed so as not to give away graphics that could lead to brand identification.
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post #141 of 195 Old 08-21-2019, 12:07 PM
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I looked at Vincent's video of the UK TV Shootout and have a couple of observations since I calibrated the LG C9 and the Sony A9G at the VE TV Shootout. Please note, the observations are for information purposes and absolutely not meant to be critical in any way of his or any other TV shootout.

1) Vincent's efforts to find content that pushes the displays should really be commended since I know first hand how difficult a task like this is.
2) For HDR Tone mapping, Vincent says he used CalMAN's new feature to re-create and customize the HDR tone mapping curves based on the Peak Luminance of the display. I did this as well on our C9, in fact I do this on every 2019 LG OLED I calibrate but "the powers to be" wanted the Dynamic Tone Mapping enabled because they felt it produced a better HDR picture. Although the DTM feature benefits from the HDR calibration, perhaps if we left DTM OFF the LG would have performed better at the US TV Shootout. Personally I agree with Vincent and prefer DTM set to OFF after calibration.
3) For uniformity, from my experience, except for the Panasonic, the Sony's are generally more uniform than the LG's. Not that you can't get an excellent LG but the Sony's overall have less uniformity issues, dark banding and tinting so this was consistent.
4) As for gaming, I think everyone will agree the LG is on another level in this area compared to other TVs but i'm not sure how Vincent weighed this score in the overall results. I would think this category had to push the LG up in the scoring since it did so well compared to the other TVs. I'm not sure how many consumers of these TVs use the gaming functions and for the consumer population who just wants the best video quality for movies, etc., they may have chosen one of the other TVs.
5) As far as Dolby Vision is concerned, I agree with Vincent, it's very hard to do since the Samsung doesn't have DV and the LG and Sony have TV led vs Player led implementations. But Matt Murray of AVPro, found a way with multiple players to send DV to the LG and Sony using their DV implementations and HDR10 to the Samsung. You could see the slight differences in LG and Sony's implementations and just how well the Samsung competed with it's HDR10 PM. Since DV is becoming more prevalent, it's a feature that needs to be compared.

At the end of the day i listened to Vincent's explanation of the judging and although blind testing helped get better non-biased results, i'm not convinced that professional judges either conscious or otherwise favored one set vs another based on manufacturer at the US TV Shootout. This is based on actual conversations with some of the judges after the US event where they explained differences in PQ between the sets that were not as obvious to me but to their trained eyes and knowledge was obvious to them and were able to point them out. This is why probably professionals and consumer voting is probably the best mixture along with blind testing as Vincent demonstrated.

Another thing you need to keep in mind is there were several firmware updates for the LG from the time of the US and the UK event which focused on near black and other PQ enhancements so it is also possible the PQ of the LG was improved and better than the Sony at the UK Shootout vs the US Shootout. This is a good thing showing LG is always improving their TVs but it needs to be pointed out.

Not being at the UK TV Shootout it was great to see Vincent's blow by blow description with the technical details and explanations. I hope some of my observations are helpful when comparing the Shootout events.
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post #142 of 195 Old 08-21-2019, 12:21 PM
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Should have put a Panasonic ZT60 Plasma in there so we could all laugh when it beat the LCD.
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post #143 of 195 Old 08-21-2019, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I looked at Vincent's video of the UK TV Shootout and have a couple of observations since I calibrated the LG C9 and the Sony A9G at the VE TV Shootout. Please note, the observations are for information purposes and absolutely not meant to be critical in any way of his or any other TV shootout.



1) Vincent's efforts to find content that pushes the displays should really be commended since I know first hand how difficult a task like this is.

2) For HDR Tone mapping, Vincent says he used CalMAN's new feature to re-create and customize the HDR tone mapping curves based on the Peak Luminance of the display. I did this as well on our C9, in fact I do this on every 2019 LG OLED I calibrate but "the powers to be" wanted the Dynamic Tone Mapping enabled because they felt it produced a better HDR picture. Although the DTM feature benefits from the HDR calibration, perhaps if we left DTM OFF the LG would have performed better at the US TV Shootout. Personally I agree with Vincent and prefer DTM set to OFF after calibration.

3) For uniformity, from my experience, except for the Panasonic, the Sony's are generally more uniform than the LG's. Not that you can't get an excellent LG but the Sony's overall have less uniformity issues, dark banding and tinting so this was consistent.

4) As for gaming, I think everyone will agree the LG is on another level in this area compared to other TVs but i'm not sure how Vincent weighed this score in the overall results. I would think this category had to push the LG up in the scoring since it did so well compared to the other TVs. I'm not sure how many consumers of these TVs use the gaming functions and for the consumer population who just wants the best video quality for movies, etc., they may have chosen one of the other TVs.

5) As far as Dolby Vision is concerned, I agree with Vincent, it's very hard to do since the Samsung doesn't have DV and the LG and Sony have TV led vs Player led implementations. But Matt Murray of AVPro, found a way with multiple players to send DV to the LG and Sony using their DV implementations and HDR10 to the Samsung. You could see the slight differences in LG and Sony's implementations and just how well the Samsung competed with it's HDR10 PM. Since DV is becoming more prevalent, it's a feature that needs to be compared.



At the end of the day i listened to Vincent's explanation of the judging and although blind testing helped get better non-biased results, i'm not convinced that professional judges either conscious or otherwise favored one set vs another based on manufacturer at the US TV Shootout. This is based on actual conversations with some of the judges after the US event where they explained differences in PQ between the sets that were not as obvious to me but to their trained eyes and knowledge was obvious to them and were able to point them out. This is why probably professionals and consumer voting is probably the best mixture along with blind testing as Vincent demonstrated.



Another thing you need to keep in mind is there were several firmware updates for the LG from the time of the US and the UK event which focused on near black and other PQ enhancements so it is also possible the PQ of the LG was improved and better than the Sony at the UK Shootout vs the US Shootout. This is a good thing showing LG is always improving their TVs but it needs to be pointed out.



Not being at the UK TV Shootout it was great to see Vincent's blow by blow description with the technical details and explanations. I hope some of my observations are helpful when comparing the Shootout events.
Hi Jreff, any tips how to set the custom tone mapping for hdr with calman?


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post #144 of 195 Old 08-21-2019, 02:44 PM
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post #145 of 195 Old 08-21-2019, 04:38 PM
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post #146 of 195 Old 08-21-2019, 05:40 PM
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So in a fit of rage for losing the European shootout, Sony has abruptly pulled the plug on spiderman in the mcu🤣
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post #147 of 195 Old 08-21-2019, 07:31 PM
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Samsung will soon join the Oled party, and in 2020 there might be no LCDs in any shootout anymore.. They for sure had enough not beeing nr1 at those shootouts and will strike back..

Except marketing guys from the big companys want to shove down 8k lcds into consumers throat and into the shootouts (supported by 2020 Summer Olympics 8k mega hype train)

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post #148 of 195 Old 08-21-2019, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Bruce2019 View Post
Samsung will soon join the Oled party, and in 2020 there might be no LCDs in any shootout anymore.. They for sure had enough not beeing nr1 at those shootouts and will strike back..

Except marketing guys from the big companys want to shove down 8k lcds into consumers throat and into the shootouts (supported by 2020 Summer Olympics 8k mega hype train)

Except that:

1) Samsung will never purchase WOLED panels from their arch-rival LGD.

2) Even if Samsung decides to begin investing in ramping-up production of QD-BOLED in October as hoped/expected, no way they will have first products available for the 2020 shootouts.

Ergo, Samsung will be entering 2020 shootouts with more of the same (QLED/LCD TVs)...
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post #149 of 195 Old 08-22-2019, 04:55 AM
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Totally disagree. I see absolutely nothing wrong with having attendees judge color accuracy relative to the most respected grading monitor out there. Of course if you were hoping for a different ranking outcome I can see where you’re coming from.

I actually think this shootout was done beautifully, right down to the drawing of the curtains when source inputs or content was changed so as not to give away graphics that could lead to brand identification.
Sour grapes are extra sour this year.

The shoot out was great and a major step up over previous years.

My only suggestion to Vincent was to change the last question to "Rank in order which TV you would take home?" that takes away the obsession to name the brand and keeps the focus on the content and the scoring criteria.
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post #150 of 195 Old 08-22-2019, 06:01 AM
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^ This!

Another reason I like the concept of blind shootouts is because even professionals, yes professionals, can be either consciously or subconsciously impacted by brand bias. I guarantee you it happens.
I agree. Blind testing is referred to as the gold standard of testing as it can eliminate experimental biases arising from the placebo effect.
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