What makes TV Shootouts Relevant To You??? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 33 Old 08-27-2019, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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What makes TV Shootouts Relevant To You???

I created this thread to find out your thoughts on TV shootouts, for instance, does it impact your purchase? Does it validate your purchase if your brand wins? Do the Shootout methods need to be uniform across VE and the European ones, and finally the point that has brought some controversy for some, is Blind Testing useful or not?
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post #2 of 33 Old 08-27-2019, 01:23 PM
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On one hand It's about the same amount of significance as when my local sports franchise wins a game. That is to say, little to no relevance that falls somewhere between "oh, neat" and mild bragging for something I, myself, did not accomplish.

On the other (and less joke-y) hand, the results can go a long way to validating the time and research you have put in to your purchase. Or, you know, the opposite of that.
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post #3 of 33 Old 08-27-2019, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
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^I agree. Now some take these more serious than others for instance this past shootout a certain brand was absolutely not expected to win and yet it won to the chagrin of some. Now the methods of this shootout differed from the one conducted stateside. Many suggest that "experts" were not involved in the Euro shootout, so does that simply devalue the results, what if the expected brand won, would that change the argument???? Who are the experts, and are they biased in any way shape or form??? Should "experts" whom have bias be even aloud to participate as judges??? I think bias plays a role big time and should be considered. Maybe these the folks in charge of these shootouts should get together and collaborate on what works and what doesnt.
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post #4 of 33 Old 08-27-2019, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Reflex-Arc View Post
On the other (and less joke-y) hand, the results can go a long way to validating the time and research you have put in to your purchase. Or, you know, the opposite of that.
Haha. Totally. Always feels awesome when you decide on a product all by your own research, and then seeing it come out #1 in a shootout.
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post #5 of 33 Old 08-27-2019, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Cam1977 View Post
^I agree. Now some take these more serious than others for instance this past shootout a certain brand was absolutely not expected to win and yet it won to the chagrin of some. Now the methods of this shootout differed from the one conducted stateside. Many suggest that "experts" were not involved in the Euro shootout, so does that simply devalue the results, what if the expected brand won, would that change the argument???? Who are the experts, and are they biased in any way shape or form??? Should "experts" whom have bias be even aloud to participate as judges??? I think bias plays a role big time and should be considered. Maybe these the folks in charge of these shootouts should get together and collaborate on what works and what doesnt.
IMO, a shootout should be to demonstrate the good, bad and ugly with each display there and how those categories compare to the completion. Judging should include both experts and consumers. It should a collaborative effort where the end goal is education.... consumers learn what experts understand and pay attention to while experts, and participating manufacturers, are educated on what matters to a particular sect of consumers.
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post #6 of 33 Old 08-27-2019, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
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^I think that is a very fair pov and could not agree more. I think uniformity should be considered a category, as I think along with contrast is most important especially to the members here in AVS.

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post #7 of 33 Old 08-27-2019, 02:25 PM
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I look to shootouts for informational purposes. Not to help choose my next TV, really. That's dictated by a combination of best PQ and features that I care about, along with price. I just want to know which TVs come closest to reference and how difficult it is, or isn't, to get them there. Also, since a lot of reviews don't indicate hard numbers, I check to see if those numbers are disclosed via the shootout. Other insights that can be gleaned, such as if there is any pattern to uniformity or defects, or the like.

I don't base my purchase on the shootouts, nor would I brag if my TV won one. I may rule a TV out if it turned out to be that bad, but other than that, it's all fun via being informative.

My ideal scenario for format would be to have a blind viewing by professionals as the only judges.
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post #8 of 33 Old 08-27-2019, 03:25 PM
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I've been stalking the oled forums for about 6 months now as I will be buying a new 77 oled, brand TBD. I have and do pay attention to shootouts but they are a piece of the whole pie. I would never base my choice on one shootout, one review or one owner recommendation. To me, that is not a well rounded decision. I think they can sway someone's decision particularly if they learned something they did not know before. I find myself flip flopping on my decision almost daily.

The BEST TV EVER does not exist. There is only best for each person specifically for their preferences. I wouldn't consider bragging about my choice of TV to anyone because frankly, I didn't choose a TV for everyone. Other people's opinions don't really matter. Now, if they asked, I would happily tell them why I bought it.

As mentioned, I personally would like to see a mix of professionals and enthusiasts. Scored separately and together. And, I do like the blind shootout. I think it might be very difficult to get both Shootouts to agree on everything. If they did agree on everything, then why have 2? I don't think there is going to be a "perfect" shootout where everyone is going to be completely happy. Not sure there is a way to eliminate all bias. That's not to say those responsible don't try to improve them.

My hats off to the VE Shootout and the HDTV Test Shootout. A lot of hard work was involved, much respect to their time and efforts.

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post #9 of 33 Old 08-27-2019, 04:20 PM
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IMO, the shoot-out results are just one piece of information that can help decide which displays to seriously consider. Calibrators's opinions and professional reviews are additional pieces of information, as well as going to look at them in person. I certainly would not base my entire purchase on one shoot-out (especially since the two were somewhat contradictory). Blind testing is theoretically an advantage, but so is having experts do the grading compared to a gold standard monitor, rather than a random audience (I agree with others that the ideal shoot-out would have separate voting by both experts and consumers). IMO, it's pretty sad if people need validation of what they bought - all the OLEDs are excellent, each with its own set of strengths and weaknesses (there is no perfect display).

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post #10 of 33 Old 08-27-2019, 04:56 PM
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It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside when the TV I bought wins.


No. No it doesn't. I bought my TV for my own reasons. I only look at shootouts to see what other people are interested in just out of curiosity.
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post #11 of 33 Old 08-27-2019, 05:08 PM
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I will just add that when one technology consistently beats another (Samsung QLED always seems to come in behind all the OLEDs), that is very useful information.

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post #12 of 33 Old 08-27-2019, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillP View Post
IMO, the shoot-out results are just one piece of information that can help decide which displays to seriously consider. Calibrators's opinions and professional reviews are additional pieces of information, as well as going to look at them in person. I certainly would not base my entire purchase on one shoot-out (especially since the two were somewhat contradictory). Blind testing is theoretically an advantage, but so is having experts do the grading compared to a gold standard monitor, rather than a random audience (I agree with others that the ideal shoot-out would have separate voting by both experts and consumers). IMO, it's pretty sad if people need validation of what they bought - all the OLEDs are excellent, each with its own set of strengths and weaknesses (there is no perfect display).
I think Vincent had an excellent response to those who wondered about his way of conducting the shootout.
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post #13 of 33 Old 08-28-2019, 06:03 AM
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Just one opinion but I find these "events" a completely useless waste of time.
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post #14 of 33 Old 08-28-2019, 06:52 AM
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It's just one data point.

My only gripe is there's clearly bias going into the shootout. If you took 2 identical TVs and one said OLED and the other LCD, the OLED would win. Not that a real OLED isn't better than a real LCD.
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post #15 of 33 Old 08-28-2019, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Cam1977 View Post
I think Vincent had an excellent response to those who wondered about his way of conducting the shootout.
What was his response? Just a very quick synopsis, if you can. I didn't watch his wrap up videos.

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post #16 of 33 Old 08-28-2019, 07:27 AM
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It's just one data point.

My only gripe is there's clearly bias going into the shootout. If you took 2 identical TVs and one said OLED and the other LCD, the OLED would win. Not that a real OLED isn't better than a real LCD.
The HDTV Test shootout tried to take that element out by covering all but the screens of the TVs.

In reality, as great as these high end LCDs look, when you have them side by side to an OLED, it's fairly obvious to see the difference. Pro and con. If they show something with a lot of white, it's easy to see that the OLED is going to look like a light gray comparatively. If they show something with mixed light and dark elements, it's easy to see the depth that the contrast ratio of the OLED provides. That's to say nothing of potentially obvious blooming, or dark corners, or viewing angle contrast/color shifts (OLED has color shift also, for sure, but it's more subtle and you need to be further off axis to notice vs LCD).

Bias of one OLED vs the other based off of name, is the main focus. OLEDs and LCDs just look different. Which you prefer, is another story, but if you can't tell the difference between the two techs, (at least with the current crop of FALDs we have now. Maybe dual LCD or MiniLED with a ton of zones makes that extremely difficult) you probably shouldn't be judging a shootout anyway.
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post #17 of 33 Old 08-28-2019, 07:29 AM
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The first HDTV shootout I attended was due to my interest in moving away from my Kuro. I went there with an open mind and by the end, wanted to buy the C7 that was on display but got out bid by LG themselves!

I ended up getting a 65C7 and still attended the next 2 shoutouts.

For me it’s the fastest way to consume information on the new breed and use my own eyes to compare between the ref monitor and brands present. The fact that all the sets are calibrated by a group of people I respect in their profession makes the information gathered more valuable.

The tidbits you pick up From the ongoing discussion doesn’t get picked up in a review or a scorecard. It’s a great value add for me and I’d place it on par with the sets themselves!

Ever watched a review and wondered why he said that? Wait no more. Ask and get a detailed answer and learn for yourself. Then walk right upto a set and see for yourself what he means in real-time. Can’t beat that.

I look forward to future shootouts and the next set I see that I have to take home that day.

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post #18 of 33 Old 08-28-2019, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by RobertR1 View Post
The first HDTV shootout I attended was due to my interest in moving away from my Kuro. I went there with an open mind and by the end, wanted to buy the C7 that was on display but got out bid by LG themselves!

I ended up getting a 65C7 and still attended the next 2 shoutouts.

For me it’s the fastest way to consume information on the new breed and use my own eyes to compare between the ref monitor and brands present. The fact that all the sets are calibrated by a group of people I respect in their profession makes the information gathered more valuable.

The tidbits you pick up From the ongoing discussion doesn’t get picked up in a review or a scorecard. It’s a great value add for me and I’d place it on par with the sets themselves!

Ever wantched a review and wondered why he said? Wait no more. Ask and get a detailed answer and learn for yourself. Then walk right upto a set and what he means in real-time. Can’t beat that.

I look forward to future shootouts and the next set I see that I have to take home that day.
Curious why LG would buy one of their own TVs.

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post #19 of 33 Old 08-28-2019, 09:21 AM
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Great thread idea, Cam! I think the shootouts are fun, but I personally don't base a purchasing decision on them. I spend considerable time viewing the displays I'm considering on my own. A reading of posts following any shootout will show those owners whose display did not win, find 100 reasons why the shootout was a joke, poorly conducted and obviously biased. OTOH, those owners whose display did win, find 100 reasons why the shootout was the most incredibly precise, scientifically derived session ever, in the history of mankind. Most of us are guilty at one time or another of being in one camp or the other.

With that said, in the interest of the credibility of results, I firmly believe shootouts should be a blindfolded affair as attendees, both enthusiast & professionals, can be and are biased. Anyone doubting this is just kidding themselves.

I also believe that judging should be done by both enthusiasts & professionals and have no trouble with the results being blended. However we really need to define what is meant by 'professional'. I think Vincent made some excellent points about this in his post in another thread. A professional 'colorist' does not necessarily have a great eye for motion, gaming criteria or a variety of other PQ aspects.

I also see absolutely no reason why enthusiasts can't judge color when there is a known accurate color monitor at the shootout.

These shootouts are not an easy affair to put together and Robert from VE and Vincent and their teams should both be congratulated for their continuing efforts to raise the bar on these events.
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post #20 of 33 Old 08-28-2019, 10:00 AM
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post #21 of 33 Old 08-28-2019, 10:30 AM
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They're busy telling they're husbands the TV is too big and/or too expensive. Amiright?

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post #22 of 33 Old 08-28-2019, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stuntman_Mike View Post
What was his response? Just a very quick synopsis, if you can. I didn't watch his wrap up videos.
He became a member and posted some of his thoughts on the Shootout in the Sony A9G thread. I believe he did so since the actual shootout thread was closed.
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post #23 of 33 Old 08-28-2019, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Great thread idea, Cam! I think the shootouts are fun, but I personally don't base a purchasing decision on them. I spend considerable time viewing the displays I'm considering on my own. A reading of posts following any shootout will show those owners whose display did not win, find 100 reasons why the shootout was a joke, poorly conducted and obviously biased. OTOH, those owners whose display did win, find 100 reasons why the shootout was the most incredibly precise, scientifically derived session ever, in the history of mankind. Most of us are guilty at one time or another of being in one camp or the other.

With that said, in the interest of the credibility of results, I firmly believe shootouts should be a blindfolded affair as attendees, both enthusiast & professionals, can be and are biased. Anyone doubting this is just kidding themselves.

I also believe that judging should be done by both enthusiasts & professionals and have no trouble with the results being blended. However we really need to define what is meant by 'professional'. I think Vincent made some excellent points about this in his post in another thread. A professional 'colorist' does not necessarily have a great eye for motion, gaming criteria or a variety of other PQ aspects.

I also see absolutely no reason why enthusiasts can't judge color when there is a known accurate color monitor at the shootout.

These shootouts are not an easy affair to put together and Robert from VE and Vincent and their teams should both be congratulated for their continuing efforts to raise the bar on these events.
All excellent points and the reason why I created this thread! I certainly agree that the way these are conducted can use some tweaking, but thats above my pay grade. Im pretty sure a lot of planning, coordination, testing, and patience goes into both of those events. As a fan and a consumer I like these shootouts, but I believe that these events, as you mentioned need to be a mixture of "professionals" and regular folks, and blind tested as done by Vincent, I think that can at least curb some bias.
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post #24 of 33 Old 08-28-2019, 01:11 PM
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Shootouts are important because a lot of enthusiasts are bias towards certain brands and they well tell you that one brand picture quality is so much more superior to the others when the truth is the oled tvs are close to each other and the difference is just splitting hairs and this is something that the shootout proves. Now you have stubborn brand lovers who will put down the shootout and make excuses for their preferred brand, at the end of the day any one of these oled tvs will make you happy I say between lg, sony and panasonic buy the cheapest one since their is no reason for a big price difference.
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post #25 of 33 Old 08-28-2019, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
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^I think that is a very fair pov and could not agree more. I think uniformity should be considered a category, as I think along with contrast is most important especially to the members here in AVS.
I say include categories that matter to some people such as cable tv upscaling that weren't included in either of this years shootouts.

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post #26 of 33 Old 08-28-2019, 05:53 PM
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They also need to standardize the content being tested, as suggested by some of the calibrators. Certain material was apparently a torture test for one brand in one shoot-out and other material was a torture test for another brand in the other shoot-out. It would help to test the same material in all shoot-outs to eliminate potential bias. As others have alluded to, the scores were very close in both shoot-outs, and you can't go wrong with any of the OLEDs tested (they each have their strengths and weaknesses).
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post #27 of 33 Old 08-28-2019, 09:25 PM
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I think blind testing is the best way going forward. I would like to see more specific categories which the winner of each category for experts and then audience and then overall. Categories I would like to see as many consumers will not get their TV professionally calibrated:

-Best SDR color accuracy/white balance using the most accurate default picture mode at 100 nits, 150 nits and 200 nits
-Best SDR color accuracy/white balance calibrated at 100 nits, 150 nits and 200 nits
-Best HDR color accuracy/white balance default using the most accurate default picture mode
-Best HDR color accuracy/white balance calibrated
-Best overall motion handling
-Best Cable TV upconversion
-Best 1080p upconversion
-Best gaming TV
-Best uniformity 5%
-Best uniformity 100%
-Best shadow detail

I know this is asking a lot but that would give people an idea of what TV would excel in specific categories that are important to them even if it didn’t place first in each category or overall. For example cable TV upconversion, both uniformities and default picture mode performance are the ones that I place importance on.
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post #28 of 33 Old 08-29-2019, 02:30 AM
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I love how shootouts almost always conform to the objective data found in TV tests. i.e. Sony and Panasonic have the best video-processing and motion, and they end up in 1st and 2nd place. Sony's known to be dimmer than the other OLED brands so it gets last place in HDR brightness... Panasonic dominates colour reproduction every year because well, they have the most accurate. LG's have the lowest input lag, people select it as best for gaming.
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post #29 of 33 Old 08-29-2019, 07:20 AM
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I say include categories that matter to some people such as cable tv upscaling that weren't included in either of this years shootouts.

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That's a little more difficult as quality of cable varies on who's the provider, and also your location. Harder to get an apples to apples comparison versus a disc or video stream.

It would be a nice thing to include, though.

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post #30 of 33 Old 08-29-2019, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by pwiss View Post
I think blind testing is the best way going forward. I would like to see more specific categories which the winner of each category for experts and then audience and then overall. Categories I would like to see as many consumers will not get their TV professionally calibrated:

-Best SDR color accuracy/white balance using the most accurate default picture mode at 100 nits, 150 nits and 200 nits
-Best SDR color accuracy/white balance calibrated at 100 nits, 150 nits and 200 nits
-Best HDR color accuracy/white balance default using the most accurate default picture mode
-Best HDR color accuracy/white balance calibrated
-Best overall motion handling
-Best Cable TV upconversion
-Best 1080p upconversion
-Best gaming TV
-Best uniformity 5%
-Best uniformity 100%
-Best shadow detail

I know this is asking a lot but that would give people an idea of what TV would excel in specific categories that are important to them even if it didn’t place first in each category or overall. For example cable TV upconversion, both uniformities and default picture mode performance are the ones that I place importance on.
Those would be great categories also. A lot of what you have listed pertains to panel lottery, though, so even if they judged them on that, it doesn't mean it's representative of the whole line, or that you'll get a panel that's anything like what's tested (good or bad). Probably better to see what a lot of owners, calibrators, and pro reviewers have to say.
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